Tabata - how Many sets ,ideal exercises ?

dario28

Am I reading this wrong , or are they saying you only need to do 1 set a day and thats 4mins or so of exercise ?

http://tabatatraining.org/

Had a crack at it yesterday doing following (Are these the right exercises to do)

1) pull up , palms in
2) TRX atomic push-up/crunch
3) TRX Bodyweight squats to row
4) Full power on the bag
5) burpees
6) TRX Atomics
7) Bag on ground
8) Burpees

After the 2nd sets I was fairly wrecked but deffo had a 3rd round left and I was going flat out in each 20 sec round

Is this more of a finisher thing at the end of a workout or do people use it for fat burn before eating in the AM ?

Hanley

The Tabata protocol is a VERY specific targeted approach to a very specific goal. None of which the above matches too.

What you're doing is 20 seconds of work followed by 10 seconds or rest, which is the timing period used in the Tabata study (and perfectly ok to use as an interval timing scheme), but it is NOT the same thing as the researchers were doing.

kevpants

Tabata front squats.

Anything else is just not challenging enough. You'll know what I mean if you try it.

dario28

kevpants wrote: »

Tabata front squats.

Anything else is just not challenging enough. You'll know what I mean if you try it.

Gimme another 7 exercises and I'll give it a go

Hanley

dario28 wrote: »

Gimme another 7 exercises and I'll give it a go

1) front squat
2) front squat
3) front squat
4) front squat
5) front squat
6) front squat
7) front squat

TommyKnocker

Hanley wrote: »

1) front squat
2) front squat
3) front squat
4) front squat
5) front squat
6) front squat
7) front squat
8) front squat

FYP. It wouldn't be a proper tabitha if you only did 7 rounds

Hanley

TommyKnocker wrote: »

FYP. It wouldn't be a proper tabitha if you only did 7 rounds

He already had one, he was looking for 7 more.

CrazySka

I guess I haven't been using this properly when i have used it based on whats written above me.
My understanding was 3 exercises, 8 sets each alternating between the 3 each time so 24x20second work windows.
Used to enjoy it for core work eg Plank, Side plank, Reverse Curl.
Good with KB as well eg KB Snatch, KB swing, KB Row.
Nice additions or early workouts.

dario28

Hanley wrote: »

1) front squat
2) front squat
3) front squat
4) front squat
5) front squat
6) front squat
7) front squat

im confused now -

quote from the linlk i posted above

"This is a sample of a simple Tabata session:

• Pushups for intervals 1 and 3
• Body weight Squats for intervals 2 and 4
• Medicine ball slams for intervals 5 and 7
• Sprinting or jumping rope for intervals 6 and 8"

Hanley

dario28 wrote: »

im confused now -

quote from the linlk i posted above

"This is a sample of a simple Tabata session:

• Pushups for intervals 1 and 3
• Body weight Squats for intervals 2 and 4
• Medicine ball slams for intervals 5 and 7
• Sprinting or jumping rope for intervals 6 and 8"

Very simply, that is not a Tabata session.

It's a session using a 20 seconds on, 10 seconds off work to rest ratio. Which is not "Tabata".

The original Tabata study used a single discipline (cycling) and a constant power output (measured in watts) whereby the resistance was either dialed up when these levels were being achieved, or intervals were added/taken away to stay in range.

The original Tabata study also used one steady state 45ish minute traditional cardio session as part of the test group's training protocol. But for some reason people seem to have forgotten that. Or never knew it in the first place.

Hanley

CrazySka wrote: »

I guess I haven't been using this properly when i have used it based on whats written above me.
My understanding was 3 exercises, 8 sets each alternating between the 3 each time so 24x20second work windows.
Used to enjoy it for core work eg Plank, Side plank, Reverse Curl.
Good with KB as well eg KB Snatch, KB swing, KB Row.
Nice additions or early workouts.

THat's circuit training, not Tabata intervals.

But again, there's nothing wrong with circuit training and I use it a lot.

CrazySka

Hanley wrote: »

THat's circuit training, not Tabata intervals.

But again, there's nothing wrong with circuit training and I use it a lot.

True, I had been under the impression that Tabata was simply a form of circuit training that used a combination of 20 seconds on and 10 seconds off, I can see from the stuff you put up above and a quick google on the study that thats not the case though.
Interesting when you see all the Tabata timer Apps and websites, guess what they really are is circuit training apps..

Hanley

CrazySka wrote: »

True, I had been under the impression that Tabata was simply a form of circuit training that used a combination of 20 seconds on and 10 seconds off, I can see from the stuff you put up above and a quick google on the study that thats not the case though.
Interesting when you see all the Tabata timer Apps and websites, guess what they really are is circuit training apps..

Yup. "Timers using the same timing criteria as in the original Tabata study" doesn't really have the same ring to it :D

CrazySka

Hanley wrote: »

Yup. "Timers using the same timing criteria as in the original Tabata study" doesn't really have the same ring to it :D

Dunno if I would have downloaded one of them...

Mellor

dario28 wrote: »

im confused now -

quote from the linlk i posted above

"This is a sample of a simple Tabata session:

• Pushups for intervals 1 and 3
• Body weight Squats for intervals 2 and 4
• Medicine ball slams for intervals 5 and 7
• Sprinting or jumping rope for intervals 6 and 8"

They are just trying to put a marketing label on circuit training.
Tabata has become the way of describing 20sec work/10sec rest. Which i don't really have a problem with. If something says "Tabata press up", I know what it means.
What annoys me is when link their circuit back to the original study and suggest thats its the same thing by quoting jargon.

Personally, If i was going to do tabata-style intervals. I'd stick to the one exercise. The idea is to go balls to the wall for 20 seconds, if you are going hard enough, those 10 seconds are precious and not to be wasted settign up the next exercise.
Try it on the rower, 8 x 20sec work/10sec rest.
Record total distance

rock27

Go with tabatha front squats or rowing on a rowing m/c. In that preference.

Hanley

Mellor wrote: »

They are just trying to put a marketing label on circuit training.

That's Crossfit you're thinking of :D

Barry.Oglesby

many people speak well of it as a method of burning fat, particularly as it only takes 4 mins or so. As far as I remember the increased power output was largely temporary. Most coaches think of it now as a sort of interesting but not very practical study.

Still, if you want pain in your workout, but you don't want the kind of pain that goes on for an hour, and if you want to cry a little bit inside, I recommend 4 mins of the front squat as suggested earlier. Unpleasant.

Wollwead

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

Still, if you want pain in your workout, but you don't want the kind of pain that goes on for an hour, and if you want to cry a little bit inside, I recommend 4 mins of the front squat as suggested earlier. Unpleasant.

What weight for the front squat would you recommend dude? Or would that be a % of one's 1RM?? I was thinking along the lines of a 20kg sandbag or something, my 1RM is around the 110kg mark for front squat, would love to give this one a bash when i feel like abusing my body or i'm in a bad mood and need to get agressive with sh!t.:D

Barry.Oglesby

Wollwead wrote: »

What weight for the front squat would you recommend dude? Or would that be a % of one's 1RM?? I was thinking along the lines of a 20kg sandbag or something, my 1RM is around the 110kg mark for front squat, would love to give this one a bash when i feel like abusing my body or i'm in a bad mood and need to get agressive with sh!t.:D

Somewhere between 40and 50% of your 1RM should be enough. Sandbag would be fine but picking it up and putting it down is going to take some time. Ideally you want the bar in the rack in front of you so it's nice and quick and easy.

Wollwead

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

Somewhere between 40and 50% of your 1RM should be enough. Sandbag would be fine but picking it up and putting it down is going to take some time. Ideally you want the bar in the rack in front of you so it's nice and quick and easy.

I LOL'd when I read the bit in bold! Cheers for the quick reply, i'll hit this one fresh some day soon!!

kevpants

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

Somewhere between 40and 50% of your 1RM should be enough. Sandbag would be fine but picking it up and putting it down is going to take some time. Ideally you want the bar in the rack in front of you so it's nice and quick and easy.

Jesus man 50% of your 1rm for Tabatas. You feckin masochist. think I had about 20% and it nearly ended me.

Hanley

kevpants wrote: »

Jesus man 50% of your 1rm for Tabatas. You feckin masochist. think I had about 20% and it nearly ended me.

Yeah +1. Even 40kg on that would terrify me.

DB thrusters are another great exercise to use for 20/10s.

Barry.Oglesby

kevpants wrote: »

Jesus man 50% of your 1rm for Tabatas. You feckin masochist. think I had about 20% and it nearly ended me.

Yeah but a big difference between a guys whose 1RM is 100kg and yours which is probably in the 140kg region. N'est pas? For stuff like this you can probably chuck Prelepin's table in the bin.

UL_heart_throb

So this is 30kg squat for 20 seconds. 10 seconds rest. 20 second squat for a total of 4 mins?

Barry.Oglesby

Yes basically, or any weight you fancy. I've done them with 2x16kg kettlebells which was about as unpleasant as doing them with a loaded bar.

Hanley

I really think doing them unweighted would suck even more.

Barry.Oglesby

Wouldn't have the same metallurgical pathology effect on the HAL system.

Hanley

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

Wouldn't have the same metallurgical pathology effect on the HAL system.

I was expecting a "....and what happened when you tried that??" response!

traco

Tabata Row on the C2 is the business! Tough going but a great metric of your performance.

I was only reading stuff on that site a few days ago and was looking at doing some tabata intervals for a few weeks on non training days along with some mobility work to see what effects it would have.

So what would you reckon about something like this for example; I was thinking ring rows on Tuesdays, Sprints on Thurs and Burpees on Saturdays. I train regularly on Mon, Wed and Thurs and was wondering if adding those tabatas would help my running, pull ups and push ups as they all need work. Or would that be detrimental

kevpants

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

Yeah but a big difference between a guys whose 1RM is 100kg and yours which is probably in the 140kg region. N'est pas? For stuff like this you can probably chuck Prelepin's table in the bin.

All I know is I walked like Dave Angel for about a week after one 4 minute session.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGApBIcXeT8

Inspector Coptoor

I think the Tabata protocol works best for:
Front squats
Rowing
Skipping

In that order.

I remember trying Tabata front squats with 40kg and it near ended me. Had to drop right back to 25kg after the 3rd set to finish it.

I don't think using a %age of your 1rm really comes into it.

Barry.Oglesby

Skipping???

Inspector Coptoor

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

Skipping???

Yeah, I've tried it a few times and found it quite good.

Read about it somewhere (maybe t-nation) and thought "that sounds stupid" but i I was pleasantly surprised.

Barry.Oglesby

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

Skipping???

Yeah, I've tried it a few times and found it quite good.

Read about it somewhere (maybe t-nation) and thought "that sounds stupid" but i I was pleasantly surprised.

When you say skipping, what do you mean? Like, jump rope?

Inspector Coptoor

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

Skipping???

Yeah, I've tried it a few times and found it quite good.

Read about it somewhere (maybe t-nation) and thought "that sounds stupid" but i I was pleasantly surprised.

When you say skipping, what do you mean? Like, jump rope?

Yeah, that's what I mean.
Jumping rope.

I know what you're thinking though, that it sounds mental and how could it work etc.

If you are someone who is NOT good at skipping, ie, can do 60-90 seconds unbroken, it will habe a pretty good confitioning effect.

Someone who regularly incorporates skipping into their training, and who is able to do double unders and the fancy stuff won't find it good.

I can see where you're coming from on it Barry, just try it to see it from the point of view of someone who doesn't skip regularly and who doesn't have the motor skills finely tuned. If you're not adapted to it, it can work, for a while at least.

Thud

How many reps would you be looking to get in in 20 seconds for the front squat version? I'd imagine it'd decrease over the sets, no?

Can you kip front squats?

Inspector Coptoor

Thud wrote: »

How many reps would you be looking to get in in 20 seconds for the front squat version? I'd imagine it'd decrease over the sets, no?

Can you kip front squats?

I remember getting 12 in the first 20seconds, and after that it does begin to trail off.

How would you go about Kipling a front squat?

Barry.Oglesby

You could say the same about anything though. If you're ****e at it, it'll be hard. Tabata dishwasher stacking for me then. Apparently I'm pure muck at that. Skipping is jumping over a 1/4 inch rope. It's brilliant, for coordination, its a light plyo exercise, gets people used to staying in their toes, but for tabatas? Even when youre crap at it, I don't think so. Sure if you're that bad then you'll hardly get going for 20secs, and if you're good enough to skip for more than that it'd be too easy surely?

Just to confirm we're on the same page though...

Skipping?

Inspector Coptoor

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

You could say the same about anything though. If you're ****e at it, it'll be hard. Tabata dishwasher stacking for me then. Apparently I'm pure muck at that. Skipping is jumping over a 1/4 inch rope. It's brilliant, for coordination, its a light plyo exercise, gets people used to staying in their toes, but for tabatas? Even when youre crap at it, I don't think so. Sure if you're that bad then you'll hardly get going for 20secs, and if you're good enough to skip for more than that it'd be too easy surely?

Just to confirm we're on the same page though...

Skipping?

I'm not going to try & justify myself to you on the issue any more than I have already.

I told you I knew where you were you coming from before you even went down the whole dishwasher stacking route & asking the same question for the third time was a bit OTT.


It's not as if it's something I came up with.
I read it somewhere, tried it & liked it and I'm not going to apologize for that or indeed accept being talked down to about it.

traco

I don't recall seeing it mentioned but a big part of tabatas in my opinion is keeping score. The rower is great for that as it can be set and only counts the distance in the 20 secs, no roll on is included. Best for me so far is just over 850m, aiming to break 950m by the end of the year. That'll be over 12m each interval so it's not going to be easy.

For that reason I think the tabata is best suited to something that you can rep fairly fast with good form. Logging your scores will let you see if you are up or down so you can get a metric on performance and good technique.

Mellor

traco wrote: »

I don't recall seeing it mentioned but a big part of tabatas in my opinion is keeping score.

*ahem*

Mellor wrote: »

Try it on the rower, 8 x 20sec work/10sec rest.
Record total distance

:D:D

The rower is great for that as it can be set and only counts the distance in the 20 secs, no roll on is included. Best for me so far is just over 850m, aiming to break 950m by the end of the year. That'll be over 12m each interval so it's not going to be easy.

I thought that the distance covered by the flywheel during rest was included. Been a while since I did timed intervals, and that was with 4/2/1/2/4 minute blocks not 20 seconds, so there's a good chance i'm thinking of something else.

Hanley

20 on, 10 off x8 - cartwheels.

Hanley

Wall balls could actually work very well for it too.

Barry.Oglesby

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

I'm not going to try & justify myself to you on the issue any more than I have already.

I told you I knew where you were you coming from before you even went down the whole dishwasher stacking route & asking the same question for the third time was a bit OTT.


It's not as if it's something I came up with.
I read it somewhere, tried it & liked it and I'm not going to apologize for that or indeed accept being talked down to about it.

You go dude! That's the spirit.

It's an attribution error. People think something is having an effect that it isn't having. You're not getting a major metabolic effect from tabata skipping, you're under mental stress in trying to skip properly (since you're a poor skipper by your own admission) which exhausts you more. Just like if you got me to load a dishwasher for time I'd sweat, or if you asked anyone to jump up and down and answer maths problems, they'd sweat more and "feel" like they were working harder than if you just asked them to bounce up and down.

But hey, since you read it on T-Nation I'm sure it has to be good so keep on keeping on. Far be it from me to stop anyone from doing anything they want to but I thought since this is a discussion forum that we might discuss, occasionally in a jocular and lighthearted manner, the topics that are up for discussion.

So, skipping?

Hanley wrote:

20 on, 10 off x8 - cartwheels.

How about a cartwheel, L-Sit superset?

Inspector Coptoor

See, that's the difference right there.

I listed three exercises that are easy to do when following the Tabata protocol, 20s on, 10s off x 8.

At no point did I go into any detail about the conditioning effect.

The error is yours

Hanley

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

How about a cartwheel, L-Sit superset?

Been done - 2m 39s

Barry.Oglesby

I thought you said skipping was difficult to do? This is very confusing. I need to lie down for 10 seconds, then get up and think about it for 20 seconds x8.

Hanley

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

See, that's the difference right there.

I listed three exercises that are easy to do when following the Tabata protocol, 20s on, 10s off x 8.

At no point did I go into any detail about the conditioning effect.

The error is yours

What's the point in doing it if it won't "condition" you or provide a training effect? That's the whole point of doing training, no?

Inspector Coptoor

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

I thought you said skipping was difficult to do? This is very confusing. I need to lie down for 10 seconds, then get up and think about it for 20 seconds x8.

If you find lying down difficult, by all means, go ahead.

I hope it has a good training effect for you.

Barry.Oglesby

You're doing it wrong. the 10s lie down is the REST period. The metabolic bit is the thinking.