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Bandits, Team Comps and the GUI

  • 21-05-2012 9:24am
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,331 ✭✭✭


    I think it is time the GUI addressed this part of golf and one of the easiest ways of doing it would be to have a section in your GUI record for team events. That way all the .1 guys or the handicap minders saving them selves for team events could be picked up by there handicap secretary.
    Guys that are just playing there 3/4 singles in there clubs to keep handicaps and then playing nothing but team comps would have a record that could be checked every year. It wouldn't take long for it to become obvious who they are every club has them and we could all pick they out in our own club, there just needs to be a record for the comps they play on away days.
    Mike


«1

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,370 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Hands up who got beaten at the weekend? :D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,140 ✭✭✭✭TheDoc


    Its been going on years and will continue to go on for years to come.

    When commitees in clubs decide to grow a pair and actually penalise those playing dishonestly, or holding their handicaps, the game will be better for it.

    Its not like its some myth or secret, every club knows who the bandits are and who the cheats are.

    Just no one willing to actually do anything about it : /


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 892 ✭✭✭Ben1977


    It shouldn't be up to the commitee to govern its own lads.

    Thats like saying that Bank of Ireland should govern itself and not have any regulations placed on it.

    I agree that the GUI need to have a look at the rules for each comp again.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,429 ✭✭✭Mr. Larson


    Handicap Secretaries can probably only police their own team events in their own club. I've seen lads getting cut based on team event scores in my club. I think they have some kind of points accumulation system, if you win a team event or get a place, you accumulate some points, let's say for arguments sake, 0.5 for a win, 0.3 for 2nd etc. Once you tip over a certain limit you're docked a shot. Not sure if this is a formal process or just a club specific thing and it's not documented or anything. Easy enough to claw that shot back though with a few singles competitions.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,140 ✭✭✭✭TheDoc


    Ben1977 wrote: »
    It shouldn't be up to the commitee to govern its own lads.

    Thats like saying that Bank of Ireland should govern itself and not have any regulations placed on it.

    I agree that the GUI need to have a look at the rules for each comp again.

    How are the GUI going to keep informed of the happenings at every club?

    Lets be realistic, its down to the clubs committees to have a more micro intensive control over their members during competitions.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,939 ✭✭✭Russman


    Handicap Secretaries can probably only police their own team events in their own club. I've seen lads getting cut based on team event scores in my club. I think they have some kind of points accumulation system, if you win a team event or get a place, you accumulate some points, let's say for arguments sake, 0.5 for a win, 0.3 for 2nd etc. Once you tip over a certain limit you're docked a shot. Not sure if this is a formal process or just a club specific thing and it's not documented or anything. Easy enough to claw that shot back though with a few singles competitions.

    I think that points accumulation system is fairly standard. As long as its implemented I can't see what else can be done tbh. The other thing would be to force clubs to return the cards of non members to their home clubs - that seems to be infrequent at best with a lot of clubs.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,191 ✭✭✭Dr_Colossus


    One way would be to for clubs to reduce the number of team events and team open days they run and have more of a focus on singles competitions and particularly stroke play competitions. Have better prizes for singles competitions at the expense of team prizes and people won't be as inclined to keep an unjustifiably high handicap for the purpose of cleaning up in team events.
    Increasing the required number of singles competitions from 3/4 to 10 etc to keep your current handicap won't have any significant impact as bandits are likely to use those 10 competitions to pull up and further increase their handicap.
    I've no issue with an individual returning an exceptional 42+pts in a singles competition as their handicap will be appropriately reduced but the crazy scores returned in some team competitions and particularly some of the bigger am-am team events are somewhat off putting.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,331 ✭✭✭mike12


    Ben1977 wrote: »
    It shouldn't be up to the commitee to govern its own lads.

    Thats like saying that Bank of Ireland should govern itself and not have any regulations placed on it.

    I agree that the GUI need to have a look at the rules for each comp again.
    But i might not play a team event in my own club, i can play 4ball, scrambles 3 and 4 person team events all over the country and not have it recorded anywhere, its easy look after your own club. All i'm suggesting that u sign in for team events and it puts a record on your GUI record to help the handicap committe.
    Mike


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 892 ✭✭✭Ben1977


    TheDoc wrote: »
    How are the GUI going to keep informed of the happenings at every club?

    Lets be realistic, its down to the clubs committees to have a more micro intensive control over their members during competitions.

    Yes it is down to the committee as it is too big for the GUI to handle, but do you not think that the committee also wants a couple of All Ireland titles or provincial titles?

    Maybe changing the rules on the GUI side of things would help. i.e. you can only use player who have at least reducted there HC by 1 from the previous year and played 10 qualifing rounds. And for players drifting back up due to age or ability their HC should not have drifted by 3 over the 2 previous years?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,939 ✭✭✭Russman


    It's doable but is there a will to do it ? Whatever about the GUI, competition & h/cap secs are mostly volunteers and the last thing they need is more info to be thrown at them to trawl through. Clubs are too busy trying to survive right now to worry about what joe bloggs shot in a scramble somewhere.
    Not saying there isn't a problem but no system will be without its flaws as long as there's human nature involved. A few people will always try to get an edge no matter what. Best bet is to take team events for what they are, a bit of craic and not serious golf as such.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 622 ✭✭✭irishtoffee


    mike12 wrote: »
    Ben1977 wrote: »
    It shouldn't be up to the commitee to govern its own lads.

    Thats like saying that Bank of Ireland should govern itself and not have any regulations placed on it.

    I agree that the GUI need to have a look at the rules for each comp again.
    But i might not play a team event in my own club, i can play 4ball, scrambles 3 and 4 person team events all over the country and not have it recorded anywhere, its easy look after your own club. All i'm suggesting that u sign in for team events and it puts a record on your GUI record to help the handicap committe.
    Mike
    Everyone is meant to put all away scores in the book at your home course even team events and 4balls or their handicap can be suspended.It doesn't matter if you had a good score or not it has to go into the book.This is all under clause 8.12 of the handicap system.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,331 ✭✭✭mike12


    Everyone is meant to put all away scores in the book at your home course even team events and 4balls or their handicap can be suspended.It doesn't matter if you had a good score or not it has to go into the book.This is all under clause 8.12 of the handicap system.
    But will they why when we all have GUI cards not just swipe for the team events and record it as well, it would only have to be looked at the end of every season and see is there any patterens of great scores in team events.
    I drifted 3 shots myself in just over a season 8.2 lowest to 10.6 highest currently 9.6 i blame the 2 kids under 3.
    Too many guys playing off 18 that i would struggle to beat off scratch.
    Mike


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 892 ✭✭✭Ben1977


    Everyone is meant to put all away scores in the book at your home course even team events and 4balls or their handicap can be suspended.It doesn't matter if you had a good score or not it has to go into the book.This is all under clause 8.12 of the handicap system.


    The real problem is guys only playing the 4 or 5 qualifing rounds to maintain their handicap so they can play in the GUI comp the next year.

    The committee can only do so much. If they don't submit away results for team comp. and opens how could they possible know.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 308 ✭✭Seves Three Iron


    Russman wrote: »
    Best bet is to take team events for what they are, a bit of craic and not serious golf as such.

    Spot on. I never play in any of the team comps anyway. Long, boring rounds generally and no real way of guaging your progress at the end of them. Golf was designed as an individual sport - not to be played in scrambles, rumbles and four man teams.

    Unfortunately they're viewed as money spinning comps. We have a Wednesday singles in our club, for instance, and it's just been turned into a four person team event. I used to love that midweek open. Won't be playing any more. Haven't five and a half hours to spare for starters.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26 paddysaab


    TheDoc wrote: »
    Its not like its some myth or secret, every club knows who the bandits are and who the cheats are.

    And they are often the first picked on inter-club teams.;)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,677 ✭✭✭staker


    paddysaab wrote: »
    And they are often the first picked on inter-club teams.;)

    That's harsh! Not the case in most clubs I'd say.

    A lot of clubs have good intellectual resources regarding their opposition and the last thing most clubs want or need is their club being brought into disrepute because of team players with a grey history. If anything they'd go out of their way not to have them included imo.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,939 ✭✭✭Russman


    paddysaab wrote: »
    TheDoc wrote: »
    Its not like its some myth or secret, every club knows who the bandits are and who the cheats are.

    And they are often the first picked on inter-club teams.;)

    Theres a big difference between a bandit and a cheat IMO. Why wouldn't a club pick someone who might be labelled a bandit ? As long as there's no other baggage its fine.

    Apart from the likes of Senior Cup, Barton Shield and maybe Junior Cup, sadly it's virtually impossible to win without a few so called "bandits". Funny thing is these guys tend to be simply no more than fellas who are quite comfortable playing to their handicap and are labelled bandits by fellas who never get within an asses roar of their own handicap. Jealousy and bar talk are terrible things.

    No matter what club wins a mid handicap inter club comp, someone will have a derogatory comment about certain players being bandits etc etc, you hear it every year. There have been a few celebrated cases in the past where it's been more than just a few good players on a team, and a few clubs have a name for, let's say, questionable, handicaps but what can you do ?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 83 ✭✭Ildere


    paddysaab wrote: »
    And they are often the first picked on inter-club teams.;)
    You are correct about this.
    What makes the 'best' player in inter club teams, its the fella who possesses a handicap that doesnt reflect his ability.
    In other words, if a club wants to win these things, they pick the players who perform best in the handicap category.
    If I played off 8 consistenly, say for a number of years and over a period of 2 years slipped out to 12 without losing any ability, then I would be a 'good' 12 and I would be a good pick for the team.

    Its a simple process to slip out. And thats the problem.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,333 ✭✭✭Tones69


    If you had a team to pick would you pick the 10 who plays to a 10/11 consistently or the guy who's off 13/12 and plays to a 10 consistently. Although it is a bit of a joke when you see guys who are off 20+ handicaps and are banging in pars left right and centre.

    Personally I have absolutely no interest in keeping my handicap up to make teams or win certain big prizes, just not into it (Hence the drop from 18 to 11 in 2 months). If i can play to a 6 ul be damn sure il be down at it


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,370 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Nowadays you pick the guy who was off the minimum handicap last year but is currently playing off 2 or something.
    Personally I think they need to stop this aspect of it. Its not cheating or banditry but means that sometimes you are just not going to be able to win your match.
    e.g Was off 9 last year but playing off 4 this year. To me thats unfair.
    It should be minimum of X last year and minimum of X-2 (or even X-1) this year. If you get cut more than that then you are too low, sorry.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,429 ✭✭✭Mr. Larson


    Russman wrote: »
    Theres a big difference between a bandit and a cheat IMO.

    They are one and the same if you ask me. A Bandit is someone who deliberately and knowingly manages their handicap through pulling when on a big score, accumulating 0.1's or ensuring they only play their best golf during (a) A major (b) non counting competitions where you can't get cut (c) if on a score which look like it would take home a top prize etc.

    I have a friend off 19 who is ridiculous. In his 30's, good ball striker, can chip, putt - quite inconsistent though & was given 18 a few years ago and through a combination of getting lessons and bottling scores and just being too uptight when it counts he's only been cut a few times. He has done well in a few team competitions when the pressure has been off but he is absolutely mad to get cut and would love to be off 12. He's just an accident waiting to happen, not a Bandit but I can see how he could be labelled as such when he cracks one 240yrs down the middle.

    Bandit is a word bandied around to often to someone who is too good for their handicap but who might be mad to get cut. A real bandit is the person described first.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,939 ✭✭✭Russman


    GreeBo wrote: »
    Nowadays you pick the guy who was off the minimum handicap last year but is currently playing off 2 or something.
    Personally I think they need to stop this aspect of it. Its not cheating or banditry but means that sometimes you are just not going to be able to win your match.
    e.g Was off 9 last year but playing off 4 this year. To me thats unfair.
    It should be minimum of X last year and minimum of X-2 (or even X-1) this year. If you get cut more than that then you are too low, sorry.

    I kinda agree, up to a point. But surely there'd come a time where there's too much artificial manipulation of the playing field. It's always been like that, especially in something like, say, the Metro - young buck off nine last year now off 5, playing older wiser stag etc etc The young buck doesn't always win. And i think the older guys like having the chance to take the scalp of a young hotshot. IMO its all part of the inter club thing and we shouldn't sterilise it too much. Guys would view it as being penalised for improving.

    Each year there's nearly always a team from some club that's made up of fast improving juniors, that's just the way of sport. They're all too low next year anyway so why should they be deprived of a shot at inter club glory ?

    You'd end up with the same players, who never improve much, playing the same inter club comps year after year because the "improvers" would be ineligible and I think that would be wrong.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,429 ✭✭✭Mr. Larson


    Russman wrote: »
    I kinda agree, up to a point. But surely there'd come a time where there's too much artificial manipulation of the playing field. It's always been like that, especially in something like, say, the Metro - young buck off nine last year now off 5, playing older wiser stag etc etc The young buck doesn't always win. And i think the older guys like having the chance to take the scalp of a young hotshot. IMO its all part of the inter club thing and we shouldn't sterilise it too much. Guys would view it as being penalised for improving.

    Each year there's nearly always a team from some club that's made up of fast improving juniors, that's just the way of sport. They're all too low next year anyway so why should they be deprived of a shot at inter club glory ?

    You'd end up with the same players, who never improve much, playing the same inter club comps year after year because the "improvers" would be ineligible and I think that would be wrong.

    Couldn't agree more with that post. While interclub is taken seriously it's not a professional sport we are dealing with and I think the old campaigner versus the young buck adds to the whole competition. There will always be the odd anomaly but like you say, they will be in a different competition next year and personnel will change.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,370 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Russman wrote: »
    I kinda agree, up to a point. But surely there'd come a time where there's too much artificial manipulation of the playing field. It's always been like that, especially in something like, say, the Metro - young buck off nine last year now off 5, playing older wiser stag etc etc The young buck doesn't always win. And i think the older guys like having the chance to take the scalp of a young hotshot. IMO its all part of the inter club thing and we shouldn't sterilise it too much. Guys would view it as being penalised for improving.

    Each year there's nearly always a team from some club that's made up of fast improving juniors, that's just the way of sport. They're all too low next year anyway so why should they be deprived of a shot at inter club glory ?

    You'd end up with the same players, who never improve much, playing the same inter club comps year after year because the "improvers" would be ineligible and I think that would be wrong.

    Actually I think it pushes out the "old stag" as more and more clubs are picking juniors and juveniles as these are the most likely to be playing (much) better than last years handicap.

    Let the "young buck" play right up until they make themselves ineligible (drops to 7) Im sure there will be other young bucks off 9 or 8 to take their place. Otherwise in a couple of years its going to be the same bunch of junior cert lads playing each other in every GUI comp.

    The old wiley "Steady Eddie" off 9 versus the young hotshot off 9 is what the game wants. Not two totally unmatched opponents with maybe 7 shots difference between them in reality. Otherwise whats the point in having the different handicap ranges for each competition? Why should the old guy who is never going to get much better be deprived of his glory?

    Do away with the Pierce Purcell, Jimmy Bruen, Metro and just have Junior/Senior Cup in that case.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,939 ✭✭✭Russman


    GreeBo wrote: »

    Actually I think it pushes out the "old stag" as more and more clubs are picking juniors and juveniles as these are the most likely to be playing (much) better than last years handicap.

    Let the "young buck" play right up until they make themselves ineligible (drops to 7) Im sure there will be other young bucks off 9 or 8 to take their place. Otherwise in a couple of years its going to be the same bunch of junior cert lads playing each other in every GUI comp.

    The old wiley "Steady Eddie" off 9 versus the young hotshot off 9 is what the game wants. Not two totally unmatched opponents with maybe 7 shots difference between them in reality. Otherwise whats the point in having the different handicap ranges for each competition? Why should the old guy who is never going to get much better be deprived of his glory?

    Do away with the Pierce Purcell, Jimmy Bruen, Metro and just have Junior/Senior Cup in that case.

    Ahh I don't know, I think that any club that has a particularly good metro team with 5 juniors or whatever, only has it for 1 year, maybe 2 at most. There isn't a conveyor belt of young talent coming through at every club.

    I just think that too much manipulation of the rules/criteria makes it more contrived and less like sport IMO. I suppose the argument could be turned on its head and we could ask why should steady Eddie off 9 who is never going to improve always play the same other steady eddies off nine each year ?

    Off course you occasionally get a mismatch, but I think that's an essential ingredient in keeping inter club varied and interesting. Most Dublin clubs are drawn against clubs that are nearby to them each year (we've played the same club 3 times in Rd 1 of the metro in recent years), how boring would it be if you're playing the same guys year in year out ?

    I think it's a bit unfair to deprive an improving player of his (possibly) only chance to play in a certain comp just coz the steady eddies who are playing in that same comp year after year, might not be able to beat him. Getting experience of inter club as you come down in handicap is vital in preparing you for, say, Junior Cup.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,370 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Russman wrote: »
    Ahh I don't know, I think that any club that has a particularly good metro team with 5 juniors or whatever, only has it for 1 year, maybe 2 at most. There isn't a conveyor belt of young talent coming through at every club.

    I just think that too much manipulation of the rules/criteria makes it more contrived and less like sport IMO. I suppose the argument could be turned on its head and we could ask why should steady Eddie off 9 who is never going to improve always play the same other steady eddies off nine each year ?

    Off course you occasionally get a mismatch, but I think that's an essential ingredient in keeping inter club varied and interesting. Most Dublin clubs are drawn against clubs that are nearby to them each year (we've played the same club 3 times in Rd 1 of the metro in recent years), how boring would it be if you're playing the same guys year in year out ?

    I think it's a bit unfair to deprive an improving player of his (possibly) only chance to play in a certain comp just coz the steady eddies who are playing in that same comp year after year, might not be able to beat him. Getting experience of inter club as you come down in handicap is vital in preparing you for, say, Junior Cup.

    Well my taking my own club as an example, there are lots of juniors & juveniles who are dropping in handicap every year, they could easily keep any older members off the teams.

    Golf is already "manipulated" by the use of a handicap system. When you play your club matches do you play off the handicap you qualified with or your current one? Whats so special about the inter-clubs that makes current handicap/ability irrelevant?

    I dont think its unfair to not allow someone who is "too good" for a category to not play in that category....its the whole point in having different categories.

    I'm not saying it has to be the same steady eddies playing, it just needs to be people of the same, current ability.
    Allowing people of vastly different handicaps to play each other is exactly the same problem of having bandits who are better than their current handicaps. Of course the team that has a 3 shot per man handicap advantage is going to have an advantage on the day, same goes for the scramble with 3 lads off 15 who can all play to 6 "when they want to".
    For me it totally defeats the point in having handicaps.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 281 ✭✭jimmystars


    Recent Junior cup champs had a double digit handicapper playing and winning all his matches on the way the all Ireland. Must have been a shock to all the young hotshots playing of 4 to get beat by this guy.
    Is this guy branded as a bandit or do you walk off saying best double digit i ever saw?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 83 ✭✭Ildere


    jimmystars wrote: »
    Recent Junior cup champs had a double digit handicapper playing and winning all his matches on the way the all Ireland. Must have been a shock to all the young hotshots playing of 4 to get beat by this guy.
    Is this guy branded as a bandit or do you walk off saying best double digit i ever saw?

    If any player off say 10 can win Junior cup matches consistently then it can be said he is a very good player because he wont dodge 'genuine' 5's or 6's every game.
    I think its fair to say, if he can beat 5 or 6 handicaps consistently then he is playing off a handicap that doesnt reflect his ability.
    Thats a bandit in my book but not in the Junior Cup as all matches off scratch. Its what he gets up to when his handicap is counted in his score.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,370 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    jimmystars wrote: »
    Recent Junior cup champs had a double digit handicapper playing and winning all his matches on the way the all Ireland. Must have been a shock to all the young hotshots playing of 4 to get beat by this guy.
    Is this guy branded as a bandit or do you walk off saying best double digit i ever saw?

    I would say that by definition he isnt a double digit handicap if he keeps playing to better than 4, the only way this could happen repeatedly is that he isnt playing competitive singles.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,550 ✭✭✭Myksyk


    GreeBo wrote: »
    I would say that by definition he isnt a double digit handicap if he keeps playing to better than 4, the only way this could happen repeatedly is that he isnt playing competitive singles.

    Yeah we played against this guy in the munster final last year and were surprised that they had a double-digit player on the team. However as has been said it doesn't really matter in the junior cup itself as we're all playing off scratch ... But I sure as hell wouldn't like to be playing against him in the club Matchplay.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,191 ✭✭✭Dr_Colossus


    So why can't the handicap committee cut him on observation based on his performances in all these junior cup matches? Oh yea they have an invested interest. Sounds like he probably needs to be cut by at least 5 shots since he could well be cleaning up on the team event circuit also.

    It's in circumstances like this that the GUI need to intervene and put pressure on the handicap committee to cut the player or alternatively increase the number of singles competitions required to hold a valid handicap. The GUI have implemented a new Exceptional Scoring Reduction system for cutting hard working players scoring well in singles competitions but nothing that I can see to tackle the overinflated handicaps of team playing bandits.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 83 ✭✭Ildere


    agree with you but increasing the number of competitions wont have any effect as the bandit has no problem turning up for a singles.

    what would make a real difference is if each player, on his record, had demonstrated an ability to play to and beat his handicap on a regular basis.

    vast majority of Bandidos (cheats) have a horror of any type of handicap cut and will never do it themselves


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,370 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Myksyk wrote: »
    Yeah we played against this guy in the munster final last year and were surprised that they had a double-digit player on the team. However as has been said it doesn't really matter in the junior cup itself as we're all playing off scratch ... But I sure as hell wouldn't like to be playing against him in the club Matchplay.


    All the GUI comps are on a scratch basis, so someone off 9 could have met him in the Metro and been effectively 5 down before they started.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,370 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Ildere wrote: »
    agree with you but increasing the number of competitions wont have any effect as the bandit has no problem turning up for a singles.

    what would make a real difference is if each player, on his record, had demonstrated an ability to play to and beat his handicap on a regular basis.

    vast majority of Bandidos (cheats) have a horror of any type of handicap cut and will never do it themselves

    So how does he play in singles? Must be pretty obvious is someone can play to 4 but manages their handicap by 5 shots per round.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 281 ✭✭jimmystars


    Won captains prize at a guess :rolleyes: a few singles over the winter and then prob .1 all the way to 10 again. Dont know the guy myself but thats a pretty standard "handicap manager" in my club.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 83 ✭✭Ildere


    GreeBo wrote: »
    So how does he play in singles? Must be pretty obvious is someone can play to 4 but manages their handicap by 5 shots per round.

    plays with like minded friends, they always do, no bother accuumulate .1s if your playing partners are doin the same.

    one club I know of holds minimum 2 and sometimes 4 singles each week for the 6 months between April and Sept, they dont draw for partners except 2 competitions in the season

    how can an affiliated club to the GUI be sanctioned to hold 70+ singles competitions in a year

    Its bandit heaven


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,331 ✭✭✭mike12


    If u are going to abuse the system the .1's there is not a lot a club or GUI can do. I went up the full 20 .1's last year mainly due to the yips chipping had 42 points a couple of weeks ago in a midweek open with a 30 quid prize fund now if it had been captains day i would have expected a lot of jibes about minding the handicap. Last year i played in 39 counting comps and in out club 20 plus is the norm. I could easily have gome up another 20 .1's this year and then be very competitive in team events but it's just cheating in my opinion so try your best every time u tee it up.
    Mike


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 83 ✭✭Ildere


    it is cheating as you say and the game of golf suffers because of the minority who cheat

    thats why many wont have anything to do with inter club golf as they see it as competition which decides who is best off their handicap

    in fairness to the GUI they concentrate much of their effort on 'elite' players who compete without handicap or category

    most players enjoy playing with people of similar ability in flat matches or with shot allowances that are fair, and thats what happens a lot in friendly/casual golf

    funny enough the bandits tend to play a lot together as well

    it goes wrong only when the bandit enters the world of the honest golfer to steal the spoils, be it prizes or medals


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5 protectgolf


    I have been following posts here for a while and I definitely see a ground swell developing with a desire to take cheats on.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5 protectgolf


    One of the big problems with dealing with bandits is that they do not report their wins in classics, team events, etc.

    Everybody knows who the bandits are but can't say it. Understandable - plenty of solicitors out there to threaten anyone who says the truth...(for allegedly slandering their trusted clients...)

    What is really needed in Ireland is away of getting ALL golf results published. What if there was a way of guys just posting winners of team events? Not all winners are cheats but a register of results from non singles competitions would be a massive boost to hard pressed Handicap Secretaries who often operate in an information vacuum.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5 protectgolf


    Russman wrote: »
    It's doable but is there a will to do it ? Whatever about the GUI, competition & h/cap secs are mostly volunteers and the last thing they need is more info to be thrown at them to trawl through. Clubs are too busy trying to survive right now to worry about what joe bloggs shot in a scramble somewhere.
    Not saying there isn't a problem but no system will be without its flaws as long as there's human nature involved. A few people will always try to get an edge no matter what. Best bet is to take team events for what they are, a bit of craic and not serious golf as such.


    Spot on. Club Officials are volunteers who are supposed to "police" their members but most of real action for bandits is to do their winning at other courses and in non Singles/Qualifying competitions. The monitoring of these performances is made virtually impossible as the results are rarely, if ever, posted in the newspaper or on club websites or through the facility provided for Handicap/Competition Secretaries by the GUI on Golfnet.

    And all that is before we get into the dark arts that some players resort to intimidate, bully and threaten club officials when they try to 'clean things up' at their clubs...a subject that would probably need it's own thread


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,331 ✭✭✭mike12


    Spot on. Club Officials are volunteers who are supposed to "police" their members but most of real action for bandits is to do their winning at other courses and in non Singles/Qualifying competitions. The monitoring of these performances is made virtually impossible as the results are rarely, if ever, posted in the newspaper or on club websites or through the facility provided for Handicap/Competition Secretaries by the GUI on Golfnet.

    And all that is before we get into the dark arts that some players resort to intimidate, bully and threaten club officials when they try to 'clean things up' at their clubs...a subject that would probably need it's own thread

    Going back to my original post why not make it mandatory for all comps to be recorded on golf net regardless what type of events they are.
    Mike


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5 protectgolf


    mike12 wrote: »
    Spot on. Club Officials are volunteers who are supposed to "police" their members but most of real action for bandits is to do their winning at other courses and in non Singles/Qualifying competitions. The monitoring of these performances is made virtually impossible as the results are rarely, if ever, posted in the newspaper or on club websites or through the facility provided for Handicap/Competition Secretaries by the GUI on Golfnet.

    And all that is before we get into the dark arts that some players resort to intimidate, bully and threaten club officials when they try to 'clean things up' at their clubs...a subject that would probably need it's own thread

    Going back to my original post why not make it mandatory for all comps to be recorded on golf net regardless what type of events they are.
    Mike

    I agree but the desire is not there I think.

    Money is dictating I suppose. Clubs are so trapped for cash it seems to me that nobody wants upset one of the last gravy trains...

    What about the prizes on offer? Amateur status how are you? The €750 limit set by R&A is being broken all over the place - I am not going to name individual competitions or clubs but there are loads of competitions out there now offering holidays to Spain/Portugal/Turkey/etc.

    What I will say is that there are at least two team events (that I know of) run by national daily newspapers that offer prizes that brush very closely to Amateur status limits - the media who if the matter related to Politians, Bankers or Builders "bending" the rules would be up in arms but when it means selling their newspapers and capturing the golf readers (for weekly results, etc) they turn a blind eye - it's all about the money.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,939 ✭✭✭Russman


    I also think part of the problem with putting team events etc on golfnet that there's no barometer of what's a "good" score. At least in singles theres the CSS, but you could win a team event with, say, 90pts on one day and on another day not be in the top 10 with that. It's too grey to be putting it on golfnet IMO. Unless we want to go down the route of purely winning being the crime, regardless of the score. I certainly don't agree with the "he won, so cut him" mentality.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,144 ✭✭✭Benny Cake


    Played with a guy today off 14.4 in a classic who scored 44 points on his own card. He's playing a club match in 2 weeks and openly admitted he was playing singles tomorrow to make sure he's out to 15 in time for the comp.
    TBH, i don't understand the bandit mentality... My primary focus is always to play as well as I can and take the cuts when they come....


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 133 ✭✭ernieprice


    Some of the problem lies with clubs not willing/wanting to deal with players that have handicaps well above their potential. I observed a match in our own club today where a 17 handicapper had 10 pars in 14 holes. A 24 handicapper hitting a 6 iron 160 yards into a stiff wind and easily reaching the green. This player also had 7 pars in 15 holes. Is it possible that some clubs are allowing these inflated handicaps remain in order to win inter club competitions. The GUI had to deal with this exact problem a number of years ago.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,331 ✭✭✭mike12


    Russman wrote: »
    I also think part of the problem with putting team events etc on golfnet that there's no barometer of what's a "good" score. At least in singles theres the CSS, but you could win a team event with, say, 90pts on one day and on another day not be in the top 10 with that. It's too grey to be putting it on golfnet IMO. Unless we want to go down the route of purely winning being the crime, regardless of the score. I certainly don't agree with the "he won, so cut him" mentality.
    i'd say all u would need to put on golfnet would be score position and winning score. It would hi-light the guys who are playing 3 or 4 single comps and 20 or 30 team comps in a year and show what position they were finishing.
    Mike


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5 protectgolf


    mike12 wrote: »
    Russman wrote: »
    I also think part of the problem with putting team events etc on golfnet that there's no barometer of what's a "good" score. At least in singles theres the CSS, but you could win a team event with, say, 90pts on one day and on another day not be in the top 10 with that. It's too grey to be putting it on golfnet IMO. Unless we want to go down the route of purely winning being the crime, regardless of the score. I certainly don't agree with the "he won, so cut him" mentality.
    i'd say all u would need to put on golfnet would be score position and winning score. It would hi-light the guys who are playing 3 or 4 single comps and 20 or 30 team comps in a year and show what position they were finishing.
    Mike


    True - it's just a flag of possible good perfotmsnce, not an absolute that he be cut. No problem with people winning but if somebody plays in 20 singles and gets mostly .1s (except in Capts and Pres prize) and say 10 team events and is on winning team on 3 or more occasions then that should flag to Handicap Sec and committee that his handicap might need to be looked at.

    What I describe in this example is quiet typical in my experience. It points back to the substantial prizes on offer in classic/team events - encourages guys to 'pull' in singles (except the 'majors' obviously) and team up with the right sort of partners for team events. GUI need to crack down on abuse of Amateur status - it is a charade and system (GUI, Clubs, newspapers, Golf Magazines, etc) all turn a blind eye to it.

    One final point, again from my experience, is that when players are confronted my the hsndicsp committee ontheir performance in team events, etc their reply is either (i) "it was only a small prize, a tee shirt or umbrella" and/or (ii) "I was useless myself, I only came into the scoring in [low single digit] holes, it was the other guys who played well". And you thought 'the dog ate my homework' excuses ended in school??


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 83 ✭✭Ildere


    Golf is the game where players are their own referees, and the vast majority of players are honest in their approach to all aspects of the game.
    As with all walks of life there are rotten apples and golf has them as well.
    Its a sad fact that some people take advantage of the majority and abuse the self regulation.
    I believe that golf in general values this honest aspect of the game.
    To address the abusers is a very large step to take as it involves admitting that there is a problem with self regulation.
    In years gone by, club members valued the game to the extent that they policed other members and spoke up when irregularities were seen.
    The threat of law, real or implied, has made people wary of such action.

    Like abuses which occured in large institutions, if the object is to protect the institution, the abuse goes on.

    No easy solution.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,939 ✭✭✭Russman


    I agree that there's a problem with x number of players alright. But is it really that big an issue ? I mean, once you have these classics and team events with big prizes it's almost inevitable that some guys try take advantage. And I'm not defending what they do, just suggesting the cure might not be worth it. Reducing prizes to nominal values might help but that will reduce the attractiveness of these events if they're used as fund raisers.

    I do think there's an argument for 4 balls and team events being disregarded anyway for handicapping. Ok, the excuse of "I only scored on 4 holes" might not be true, but equally it might. It's definitely easier to play when you have a partner their to back you up. Lots of players have difficulty when the card is in the pocket.

    I don't doubt bandits exist but I really don't think the number of real ones is as big as made out. And by real bandit I mean someone who can turn it on at will in a singles. I'm sure we all know people regarded as a bandit but, of the ones I know, they win sweet FA. They have a rep based on how they hit the ball or how good they were 20 years ago.

    That's why I'm always reluctant to say someone is "pulling" tbh. Look at Wentworth yesterday, yer man who shot 64 on Friday shoots 81 yesterday - no doubt he was trying his best. Yet if he was a 15 handicapper someone would probably say he was pulling !! :-)

    I did competitions a few years ago in my club and one thing I noticed from doing the cards every week was that most players hardly ever play to their handicap. Twenty 0.1s wouldn't be at all unusual with one or two cuts in there somewhere. I don't think club amateurs are good enough in general to choose where and when they do good scores.

    There's always going to be a few bad apples in a self regulated system no matter how strict the rules are. It's a question of how many rules we bring in before getting to the point of diminishing returns or ruining the social and enjoyable side of the game for the majority who are not bandits.

    As said earlier, best to take classics, team events, scrambles etc for what they are IMO.


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