Smoke from Neighbours Condensing Boiler

Big Kay

Hi, Im looking for a bit of advice from anyone with experience of this issue. Basically my neighbour had just installed a condensing boiler with the flu output very close to the boundary wall and about 4 ft or so from my back door and 5ft or so from my sons bedroom window. Theres a lot of smoke or steam from it and it fogs up the bedroom window and sometimes (depending on the wind) blows across the back door windows. Its quite annoying but he told me when I asked that it was just like kettle steam and harmless. Is this true? Also is there regulation on being this close to my kids windows etc. If i open my back door its comes into the house, I know its only steam but I think its a bit much, my dealings with him in the past have proved he is quite unreasonable so Im pretty sure if I ask him to get a plume kit etc he'll say no, does he have to? Im worried that if something went wrong with the boiler then any dangerous emissions would be going in my kids window or vent beside the window. I could just get a large wooden fence and add it to the wall to block it I suppose but Im not sure that would do the job fully. Any ideas?

Thanks

JohnnieK

If the appliance is set up correctly then the steam is harmless. There is strict guidelines involved when installing a flue and with out standing there looking at it, it's hard to know if these have been adhered too. If the plume is a nuisance then he must do something to change this.

I'm amazed the installer didn't highlight this to the installer prior to installation but maybe they just didn't care.

deandean

My gas boiler was causing the same problem to my neibhbour, the boiler maker had a 45deg diverter accessory that attaches to the exhaust that solved the problem about 98%.

DGOBS

I wouldn't agree at all that the 'steam' is harmless, CO, CO2, Nox, Sox are not pleasant gases to inhale! The steam is the water vapor that's visible.

If the flue gases can enter the house then this is an issue, as you said it comes directly across your boundary and condensates on your windows then you have cause to get your neighbour to attend to it.

Enforcement can be the issue, as oil installations for the most part are unregulated in this country, but flies are covered in the building regulations. If it was a gas boiler on the other hand being a regulated industry you could report it to RGII on safety grounds and the installation would have to be remedied or taken out of service.

In the mean time fit a CO alarm in your property when flue gases are most likely to enter to at least afford yourself some protection.

If your neighbours oil boiled was fitted by or commissioned by a registered Oftec technician you can go to Oftec.org and contact them, as they will inspect it and maybe able to bring some pressure on the installer to rectify this installation

Outkast_IRE

I know a lot of the manufacturers sell a diverter kit now which will bring the flue gases up the wall a few meters or another direction a few meters.

Would obviously have to look at the install, but if its condensing on your windows then i wouldnt be happy with the situation really.

PeteHeat

We fitted a condensing oil boiler well within all regulations and guidelines, one thing we were not aware of was even on calm days there is a breeze generated by the different building heights etc that caused the plume to go in the direction of the neighbours house, similar to your problem but not as bad.

The solution was to fit a plume diverter kit which carried the POC over the gutter of the garage to atmosphere, problem solved before it became a problem.

A bit more work and spending was needed but as the customer was the type neighbour we all would like beside us the upgrade was ordered without any question.

There are times when the installer is working within all the regs but the regs / guidelines can't cover every situation, that is when common sense and good customer relations are needed, under no circumstances should anyone have to endure fumes coming into their home.

.

Big Kay

Thanks for all the advice, yesterday I walked out my back door and literally inhaled the plume! Unfortunately the problem is that Ive found the neighbour not to be very reasonable and were not on talking terms so there is no way he would install a diverter kit or anything else if I asked him. I got on to the planning regulations dept at the dept of the environment and they gave me the regulations in a document

http://www.environ.ie/en/Publications/DevelopmentandHousing/BuildingStandards/FileDownLoad,1650,en.pdf

However it looks like as long as it 600mm away from an opening its within regulation! If its within regulation Im really relying on good will and in this case there is none there! Im not exageratting the amount of plume literally flowing straight into my face when I step out the back door or (depending on the wind) to my kids bedroom! If there is no regulation around this , which seems rdidiculous to me, I'll have to put a fence up to block it........

DGOBS

But building regulations should not be read in isolation, in effect manufacturers instructions must be followed, do you know which boiler it is and I will locate the required paragraph regarding the re-entry of flue gas into dwellings if it has it.

antoinolachtnai

You should check the manufacturer recommendations for a few of the major brands of boilers. On the face of it, what you are describing is not right but you should check the specs. I think there are specific requirements in relation to distances to openings and also in relation to having the outlet over a place where people actually walk by.

These modern condensing boilers throw out a good bit more steam than the old non-condensing boilers so the regulations may have not caught up.

Presumably this is not near any of the neighbor's own doors or windows?

Big Kay

I dont know what make it is and dont really have any way of finding out. I do know its a modern condensing boiler thats about it. I'll try find a few of the major brands and look at the intstalation requirements, from what I can see the flu is meant to be at an angle so it can suck back in air, its not its horizontal so just flows directly out to my door. He has a long extension and its at the side of it at the end near my door. Its nowhere near any of his windows or doors and whats most annoying is he had plenty of places to put it that were nowhere near anyone. It seems like a messy one unless I know the company that installed it ( I think he did it himself with a plumber friend) even at that I may not have any legal right to complain. Perhaps I should just put a fence up to block it and forget about it! Although a friend of mine looked at it last night and reckons if I build an extension down the line he'll be in trouble as there will be little or no space left for his boiler to draw air from, looks like bad planning to me but Im new to all this, really I just want no smoke in my door!

antoinolachtnai

If you think this seriously effects the value of your home, you will need to consider taking action to sort this out. You either need to talk to him or find out the planning situation and decide what you need to do.

If there is a problem for you building a new extension because it is close to his flue, then it will be your problem, not his and you will not be able to build.

The document you linked to above are building regulations. They are not planning regulations.

Big Kay

Would it really be my problem if I was to bios an extension? If I don't need planning permission for a single storey extension surely it would be his problem? Is it Dublin City council planning I need to contact about this?

DGOBS

Extracted from Firebird Enviromax Installation Manual (p27)

1. Terminals should be positioned so as to avoid products of combustion accumulating in stagnant pockets around the building or entering into buildings.

and P23

When choosing the location for a condensing boiler, special consideration must be given to the positioning of the flue terminal. Care should be taken to locate it so as to prevent either the end user or their neighbours perceiving the plume to be a nuisance.
It should be noted that the normal statutory clearances required around low level flue terminals (ref. T45 T1/135)may not be sufficient to cope with plume dispersal from a condensing boiler. The following points should be considered: -
1. Plumes can extend out horizontally and can also drift out to the sides and above the terminal.Care needs to be taken, therefore, to avoid the plume reaching adjacent surfaces, particularly windows and neighbours dwellings.

Big Kay

Thanks DGOBS that's really helpfull, are these manafacturer recommendations or is it regulation? I contacted the planning department in Dublin city council but no joy, I'm at a loss about where to go with this now.... Cheers

DGOBS

These are manufacturers 'instructions' not recommendations, remember manufacturers instructions technically override regulations unless otherwise stated.

If I was in your position, firstly I would approach the neighbour directly, armed with this knowledge. At least give it a try. AFAIK there has been legal cases taken over similar issues where plumes were crossing boundary walls (or so I have been informed)

Failing that, go take some legal advice, environ.ie IMHO are a joke, they don't even want to know about failing oil tanks or spills, another waste of tax payers money

antoinolachtnai

This certainly seems like a planning issue to me. But the rules are very technical. You may need to find a planning consultant. Gas regulations as mentioned before are another avenue. But you will probably need to fight this on your own, unfortunately.

It is a lot of fuss over an issue that a plume management kit would solve.

jamesd

Put up a fencing panel - sorted.

JohnnieK

You know, when I'm driving around Im amazed at the amount of flue terminals on old and indeed on new houses that don't satisfy basic regulations. I think the most shocking is the new houses, these where passed because they would never have got a meter other wise.

When is our industry ever going to be cleaned up?

DGOBS

Unless we get a proper regulation body that has teeth (and b***s) the answer is NEVER!

Wish we even has a GIUSP that would at least provide some consistency with gas safety issues, all we have is 'opinion'

kerryplumbing

Like a lot of others this is something that I now see as pretty prevalent in the industry at the moment and nothing seems to be done about it. I agree it is really time that there was some kind of registration of heating engineers to oversee ALL installations - unfortunately until something very bad happens this will not happen

Big Kay

Unfortunately my last attempt to reason with my neighbour was very unsucessfull! Looks like a fence might be the only solution as going down a legal route will most likely infuriate him and cause along lasting feud! Thanks for all the advice, much appreciated....

DGOBS

Better to die on your feet, than live on your knees!

I would not accept this situation if it was me.

Big Kay

True but if he is within regulation and the manafacturers recomendations ate not mandatory what can I do? The RGII got back to me and just confirmed the existing regulations and that manafacturers have specific regulations also. They did say that the distance requirements from an opening would ensure that the plume is dispersed before it reaches any opening, nightmare scenario really nad I can only presume that when the waether gets really cold the plume will be far worse!

DGOBS

Sorry, can you clarify is this an oil or a gas boiler?

So far I had assumed it was oil

If its GAS, the regulations DO provide you with a route......

IS813 Domestic Gas Installations 2002
Table 5 (Page 38) gives the MINIMUM distance for flue terminals to vents, windows, doors etc.

BUT Page 37 Regulation 11.8
A terminal shall be located in such a position that:
-the wind can freely blow across it at all times
-THE PRODUCTS OF COMBUSTION WILL NOT BE BLOWN INTO NEARBY AIR-ENTRY GRILLS, WINDOWS OR ROOF SPACES
-the products of combustion do not cause discomfort to passers by

If the products of combustion a entering your house, call RGII and insist on an inspector visit, or call Bord Gais (assuming it is a natural gas installation) and insist they shut down the installation until it is made safe.

Also, for a GAS installation manufacturers instructions ARE MANDATORY:

Reg 8.1.2
All appliances shall be assembled, INSTALLED, adjusted and tested in accordance with manufacturers instructions, paying particular attention to restrictions on use, warning notices, clearances and access for servicing

Big Kay

Yes its a gas boiler, sorry I should have made that clear. I told the RGII this but they said there was nothing I could do, I'll point out the reglations you have highlighted to them and see what they say, thanks a lot thats a great help.

Qwerty?

I know there is no reason why you should do this but.... perhaps you might suggest to him that you would pay for the divertor kit if it would solve the problem, (another poster might be able to give a ballpart price)

It might be cheaper than a fence panel, and certainly would be cheaper and less hassle than going the legal route?

antoinolachtnai

Much as it pains me and disgusts me to say it, Qwerty is right and you might need to consider doing this for the sake of peace.

This won't really resolve the issue in relation to preventing you from building your own extension though. If that is a consideration, you need to think about that too.

DGOBS

Why should you have to go the legal route? and incur cost?

If RGII and BG are informed, and this poses any danger to persons or property they are obliged to shutdown the installation until remedial works take place to resolve the situation, there is regulations on gas installations for a reason

Big Kay

Id be happy with the diverter kit, if I called the RGII it would cause more hassle for me down the line and I dont want to have to live with that, unfortunately the problem is last time we spoke I was threatemned so Im not going to approach him again, perhaps I'll ask a neighbour to mediate and suggest the diverter kit. If he refuses then I'll have no choice but to call the RGII, thanks for all the advice...

Big Kay

I mailed the RGII asking about the regulations that DGOBS posted up and they said that the only way to resolve this is to talk to my neighbour and that

"It could also be said that the appliances was assembled, INSTALLED, adjusted and tested in accordance with manufacturers instructions, But that there was no wind on the day of the test or that the wind was blowing in the other direction "

DGOBS

So the gas safety regulators do not care about safety!
Next stop is the CER
The installation is clearly breaking regulations, windy day my arse

Big Kay

Big Kay wrote: »

I mailed the RGII asking about the regulations that DGOBS posted up and they said that the only way to resolve this is to talk to my neighbour and that

"It could also be said that the appliances was assembled, INSTALLED, adjusted and tested in accordance with manufacturers instructions, But that there was no wind on the day of the test or that the wind was blowing in the other direction "

" a flue for a condensing boiler cannot terminate in a position that allows pluming to cause a nuisance" asper Willie Wilson,RGII, 2007.
One of the few times i'v agreed:eek: with WW.

Big Kay unfortunately you live in a country where gas safety isn't overly important, you have a situation that isn't hard to put to bed and it shouldn't be up to you to enforce gas regs, RGII should be knocking on his door, inspect and then go from there.

I would suggest Eddie Hobbs or Joe Duffy would be of more use than RGII who are as pointless as a chocolate fire guard.

DGOBS

DGOBS wrote: »

So the gas safety regulators do not care about safety!
Next stop is the CER

Tony nobody cares.

DGOBS

Unfortunately we seem to Gary, thats why we get stressed so much about it!

DGOBS

DGOBS wrote: »

Unfortunately we seem to Gary, thats why we get stressed so much about it!

Unfortunately your and my opinion means very little, system is still cack.

Stove Fan

gary71 wrote: »

" a flue for a condensing boiler cannot terminate in a position that allows pluming to cause a nuisance" asper Willie Wilson,RGII, 2007.
One of the few times i'v agreed:eek: with WW.

Big Kay unfortunately you live in a country where gas safety isn't overly important, you have a situation that isn't hard to put to bed and it shouldn't be up to you to enforce gas regs, RGII should be knocking on his door, inspect and then go from there.

I would surrgest Eddie Hobbs or Joe Duffy would be of more use than RGII who are as pointless as a chocolate fire guard.

When do they decide to get involved? When someone has died??:eek:

I can't believe they can be so lacking and just not bothered:mad::mad::mad:

Clearly pluming into another persons home isn't acceptabe:mad:.

Stove Fan:)

Big Kay

Guys you seem to know a lot more about this than the RGII do, there acting like its a hassle for them. Are they wrong in telling me the plume is not a concern and that the 600mmm requirement means its dispersed? Does the plume contain carbon mooxide or other dangerous gasses?

Thanks again

Big Kay

Big Kay wrote: »

Guys you seem to know a lot more about this than the RGII do, there acting like its a hassle for them. Are they wrong in telling me the plume is not a concern and that the 600mmm requirement means its dispersed? Does the plume contain carbon mooxide or other dangerous gasses?

Thanks again

The 600 mm requirement was really for old fanned flued boilers where the hotter exhaust gas raised quickly into the atmosphere, modern condensing boiler have exhaust gases that are a lot cooler, meaning the exhaust gas can disperse a lot slower covering a larger area, manufactures can look for larger clearances from their terminals because of this.

The answer to the question on the differences between gas regulations and manufactures installation requirements the answer is very simple you go with which ever is the strongest requirement.

The plume will contain what ever the boiler is producing and can produce carbon monoxide in certain circumstances, the products of combustion leaving the boiler terminal are being diluted before they reach you.

The problem you have is due to the lack of enforcement of Gas regulation by RGII and sadly I have no answer in how you can rectify the situation, Gary.

For your information:

Possible installation difficulties:
It is sometimes more difficult to install a condensing boiler as a replacement to a non-condensing boiler because:
• The flue gases discharged from the flue terminal are cooler and less buoyant, and usually form a visible ‘plume’. They may cause wetting of surfaces too close to the terminal, or nuisance to neighboring property, or to people passing nearby.
• An existing flue designed for a non-condensing boiler is unsuitable for a condensing boiler (and vice versa), and the flue for a condensing boiler must not be shared with any non- condensing appliance.
• A liquid condensate forms within the boiler, and must be discharged to a suitable drain or soak away.

There are a number of methods to overcome these difficulties, and the assessment procedure and associated guidance is based on estimation of the practicability of these methods.

It is necessary to site a condensing boiler flue terminal such that the plume of wet flue products does not impinge on or significantly affect the use of the dwelling and also the neighbouring buildings.
•
Flue terminal siting:
For the purposes of the Condensing Boiler Installation Assessment Procedure the flue terminal should be sited so as to satisfy the guidance given in Technical Guidance Document J to the Building Regulations.
The installation should also be installed in accordance with I.S.813:2002 for gas installations and in accordance with BS 5410-1:1997 for oil burning appliances up to 45 kW.
The position of the terminal should be such as to minimise the risk of nuisance from pluming to adjacent properties or the re-entry of combustion products through openable windows, vents etc. of opposite or adjacent properties.

You can see from the above that it's not rocket science and shows how RGII could of helped you if they wanted to:mad:.
From:
http://www.seai.ie/Power_of_One/Heat_Your_Home_For_Less/Replacing_Your_Boiler/Condensing%20boiler%20installation%20for%20existing%20dwellings.pdf

PeteHeat

I am 95% sure that SEAI are now looking for a minimum of one metre clearance instead of the old 600mm.

I'm working from memory which given the late hour is not 100% clear, maybe one of the other Guys can confirm.

I find this extremely annoying the only part of the industry with legislation (I.S. 813) and nobody even those paid by the industry members subscriptions and a constant source of funds coming in from conformance certificates still nobody with the power willing to investigate this matter.

Leaving all the regulations and legislation aside common sense dictates that nobody should have their quality of life ruined.

Where are building control (local authority) in all this?

Maybe we need some legislation from the E.U. on these matters they appear to be the only source our government actually listen to because they can impose fines if their rules are not complied with.

Sorry I can't be of any real help.

.

lennymc

Holy thread revival.

I have a similar situation to the OP and I was wondering how I should go about it. The boiler was installed in late 2013 or early 2014. My neighbour is quite reasonable, so I was going to suggest a plume diverter. If this fails, I'm wondering what options are available to me? Any advice appreciated.

PeteHeat

I think you should go with your first thoughts.
Approach your neighbour in a non confrontational way explaining how the plume is causing a nuisance and suggest a plume deiverter recommended by "A Friend", surprising how easy it is to annoy someone saying you looked it up on the www.
.

A Law

Interested to hear how Big Kay got on if he's still around...

lennymc

Unfortunately my neighbour basically said "what do you want me to do about it".

Any other options avilable to me? Coming back into winter i would expect the heating to be on quite a bit more.

Dardania

Maybe invite the neighbour over to see the results of the plume?

Also get a CO detector?