Monto!

later12

Hi, I'm really interested in the song 'Monto' and I have some basic information from it, which I garnered from the internet and some books on folk music.

I'm understand the historical context of most of the typically sung verses (e.g. the childrens' parade for Queen Victoria, the Duke of Gloucester losing his virginity in Monto, etc.), but am curious about the verse about the Czar of Russia and the King of Prussia landing in the Phoenix Park in a hot air balloon.

Did anything similar to this happen, or is it just artistic embellishment?

Also, I've heard some additional verses down through the years in bars and concerts. If anyone has any lyrics or links to these additional verses, that would be great to collect. The 'extra verse' most people would know is the one about the murder of James Carey (Invincible) in Cape Town after the Phoenix Park Murders:

When Carey told on Skin-the-goat,
O'Donnell caught him on the boat
He wished he'd never been afloat, the filthy skite.
It wasn't very sensible
To tell on the Invincibles
They stood up for their principles, day and night.

But there are others too.

Just in case anyone isn't familiar with the song, this is the one I'm talking about

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wny_0pi4hR4

I think it's a real shame that the area of Monto is not marked by anything today. I walked around there this morning listening to this song; it's an area of Dublin that draws so heavily and reflects so eloquently on Dublin's history. It really should be celebrated.

Anyway, any info would be appreciated.

scholar007

Take her up the Monto the Monto, Take her up the Monto - Whoops sorry getting carried away now.

optimistic_

Isn't Monto up around Foley st etc?
Awful area now. Really dangerous.

later12

It's not dangerous exactly. It's got a lot of social problems, just as it had back when the song was written, and at the turn of the 20th century. But it's a very historic location which has always reflected a lot about who we are as a people; I wouldn't look down my nose at it, or dismiss it as 'dangerous'.

Wishbone Ash

optimistic_ wrote: »

Isn't Monto up around Foley st etc?

Yes - it was formally called Montgomery Street (hence the name "Monto").

optimistic wrote:

Awful area now. Really dangerous.

If you think Foley Street is 'awful' and 'really dangerous' you mustn't have travelled much!

breadandjam

later12 wrote: »

I think it's a real shame that the area of Monto is not marked by anything today. I walked around there this morning listening to this song; it's an area of Dublin that draws so heavily and reflects so eloquently on Dublin's history. It really should be celebrated.

Anyway, any info would be appreciated.

Why would you celebrate what was a red light district and one of the worst slums in Europe?

Econoline Van

breadandjam wrote: »

Why would you celebrate what was a red light district and one of the worst slums in Europe?

For better or for worse it's part of our history and the song Monto must be one of the most famous Irish songs there is, maybe? It's an iconic Dublin song. I agree with the OP.

irlirishkev

optimistic_ wrote: »

Isn't Monto up around Foley st etc?
Awful area now. Really dangerous.

Hardly living up to your name there are ya?

later12

breadandjam wrote: »

Why would you celebrate what was a red light district and one of the worst slums in Europe?

As Econoline said, it's got a place in Irish history.

It's not that i think we should be commemorating (or in fact, closing down...) red light districts. It's that the whole quarter around Marlborough Street may not be rich in economic terms, but it has a massive wealth of Dublin heritage.

That region, as a microcosm of the city perhaps, reflected both Dubliners' struggles and their strengths at a critical point in their history. Monto is one of the few rebel songs - and it is a rebel song - that doesn't dress up Irishness as a harmless, perpetually innocent victimhood. There is in-fighting, there are social problems, and above all there is resilience and fun.

Rather than erecting silly spires and incomprehensible, romantic bronze sculptures, I believe that's the sort of Dublin we should be recognizing and reflecting upon. We don't even mark it today. To the visitor who wishes to learn about Dublin and Dubliners, Monto (the place) doesn't even exist.

breadandjam

It's not that I think we should hide it but definitely not celebrate it. We could reflect on the fact that economically the lot of some people in the area has not moved on really

I don't understand it as a rebel song

Degsy

Anybody with an interest in the history of that area could do worse than to read a copy of Dublin pubs..life and lore..details personal experiences of people who lived there.

John_Rambo

breadandjam wrote: »

It's not that I think we should hide it but definitely not celebrate it

We can't just candy stripe our history, we should be proud of our mixed heritage in Dublin, the sons and daughters of whores, Normans, Vikings, soldiers, thieves and slummers.

Nice one Degsy, I will buy that.

mikemac1

Everyone knows about the men from the port and Amiens St train station

Just up the road was a barracks, Alderborough House on Portland Row, housed over two hundred troops and support staff, its heyday was around the Crimean War

A story that made worldwide news a Fenian attack on the barracks in 1893. Well by worldwide I found it in New Zealand and Australian newspapers
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&d=NZT18940223.2.12&l=mi&e=

---

10--1----0--
There was an explosion on Tyrone Place[I don't know where this is], a man was stopped and searched by the barracks with six detonators.
And was stopped for being drunk :rolleyes:.
Must have had a few too many whiskeys to steady his nerves . Lucky he didn't blow himself up!
Told the RIC he owned the detonators for experiments. Didn't work, he was held and charged.
No wonder the IRB failed with amateurs like this boyo


Later became a school, now it's just idle which is a shame. I believe Telecom Eireann used it for record keeping
Some more pics and internal pics http://www.archiseek.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7878, the staircase is beautiful, a neglected gem and so central in Dublin.



Anyway, my point is that many of the Monto's customers came from here



There was a hospital for VD, veneral disease. The Lock, that's what a lock hospital was
In an age before antibiotics and other treatments there was not a lot that could be done.
I've heard of mercury but that sounds ridiculously dangerous

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westmoreland_Lock_Hospital
Hospital was Townsend St
Was demolished in the forties


It was widely known that for girls that were too far gone they were euthanized, smothered with a pillow by the nurses
It's just something that went on and was accepted and probably was thought of being a kinder end.


The girls themselves were often foolish, naive girls from rural areas.
Bit lost in Dublin and madam would offer them clothes and room but now they are in debt and some get trapped.
They weren't looked down on so much by the locals, I think nowadays people may judge street walkers more harshly.

For more info on that sort of thing, an English artist put out a famous set of prints
My wikipedia link won't work for some reason?? So just google A Harlots Progress

Channel 4 turned it into a TV show, http://www.channel4.com/programmes/a-harlots-progress/4od Free to watch on 4OD
Shows how girls got recruited and then showed the downward spiral and the horrors of "the pox" and how many died alone and in pain

Dublin tenement life, great book OP
http://www.amazon.com/Dublin-Tenement-Life-Oral-History/dp/0140296255

There was a wild story that there was a tunnel from the Custom House Quay up to the Monto so the officers and gentlemen would not been seen in an area of ill-repute.
Just a story

mikemac1

Here is street map OP from 1798
When Dublin was the second city of the Empire and while there will always be poor people at least the fine buildings were not converted into tenements yet

You were mentioning the street name changes

Sorry for the size, I don't know how to reduce an image on boards



This very easy to use site has maps for all sectors of Dublin
http://dublin1798.com/dublin10.htm
Dublin was so small! The canals were built but plenty of rural land between them

mikemac1

We discussed the Monto from a social point of view in History forum two years ago

Was a great thread, CDfm over there comes up with great ideas

Pretty much everything you need to know OP
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055971902

And a big emphasis on Legion of Mary and the good god fearing citizens who shut this down in the mid twenties.

If the nuns tell you to get out of town then you do it! :eek:


As for Russia and Prussia
The Czar of Russia Nicholas II did visit his close relation King George in England but they never came to Ireland.
It's just rhyming lyrics

Econoline Van

Brilliant stuff mikemac, thanks!

later12

mickmac that's exactly what I was looking for. Loads of material to pore over - thanks:)

Fuinseog

later12 wrote: »

Hi, I'm really interested in the song 'Monto' and I have some basic information from it, which I garnered from the internet and some books on folk music.

I'm understand the historical context of most of the typically sung verses (e.g. the childrens' parade for Queen Victoria, the Duke of Gloucester losing his virginity in Monto, etc.), but am curious about the verse about the Czar of Russia and the King of Prussia landing in the Phoenix Park in a hot air balloon.

Did anything similar to this happen, or is it just artistic embellishment?

Also, I've heard some additional verses down through the years in bars and concerts. If anyone has any lyrics or links to these additional verses, that would be great to collect. The 'extra verse' most people would know is the one about the murder of James Carey (Invincible) in Cape Town after the Phoenix Park Murders:

But there are others too.

Just in case anyone isn't familiar with the song, this is the one I'm talking about

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wny_0pi4hR4

I think it's a real shame that the area of Monto is not marked by anything today. I walked around there this morning listening to this song; it's an area of Dublin that draws so heavily and reflects so eloquently on Dublin's history. It really should be celebrated.

Anyway, any info would be appreciated.

the song was written in the fifties, so it is not as old as people think. it was reviewed in the Irish times sometime last year in the irish mans diary section.

P. Breathnach

Fuinseog wrote: »

the song was written in the fifties, so it is not as old as people think. it was reviewed in the Irish times sometime last year in the irish mans diary section.

I never knew that! Written by the (then) famous Hoddie, no less.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monto_(Take_Her_Up_To_Monto)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Desmond_Hodnett