Is this comment inappropriate?

LegacyUser

I'm pregnant and due to go on maternity leave shortly. I had a coffee morning with some of my colleagues this week as we work in a scattered environment and I wouldn't be seeing many of them before I leave.
One male boss made what I don't know was a joke or a veiled insult. He said that more than likely I'd be back at work pregnant and then taking advantage of another stint of maternity leave (our company pays us in full on maternity leave which is a huge bonus) because 'That's how all the women work the system'. I kind of laughed gamely at this but its been playing on my mind.

I think it was an inappropriate thing to say and I don't think its right for someone to comment on in front of others, especially when he was more senior. I told a couple of friends about the incident and they are mixed, some think it was totally inappropriate for a manager to imply I plan on somehow 'fiddling' the system and all women are like that, others think he just hasn't a clue how to deal with people.

Should I say something to him or my manager? The comment is really bothering me.

ibarelycare

It sounds to me like he was just trying to get a laugh in the middle of a group. His comment may have been a bit misguided and inappropriate but it's unlikely that he meant any offence. You might be overthinking it a bit, I don't think you should report the incident as it would likely cause an uncomfortable relationship in the future between you and this person over something that was probably intended to be a lighthearted joke. Try not to dwell on it!

saa

He didn't imply you were fiddling the system, he meant taking advantage as in utilizing, as far as work the system goes a lot of people are resentful about anything concerning benefits and its not his place to say something like that to you but don't stress over it you're going to be gone soon just watch how things go when you come back.

So it was more like imagine if you came back pregnant you'd be gone for another paid leave in a jokey way implying that would be ridiculous or farcical in his opinion and very unlikely to happen so thats why he said it but it seems that he resents women leaving work with the work the system comment, look with some people there is a lack of understanding and some ignorance in there so its your choice to talk to him or report but maybe you just want to watch out for how youre being treated when you return if you come back and everythings fine thats grand but if you make a report and come back it could make things hostile, honestly there will be people who will resent you for leaving and not agree with women being in the work place if they want children but that is their opinion and that comment doesnt mean that yer man thinks that but maybe he is slightly jealous and is thinking more of the paid time off you're getting.

P. Breathnach

He was well out of order, and his comment needs to be dealt with - for your sake, for the benefit of all work colleagues (men as well as women), and for his own benefit.

It's a question of how best to deal with it. If you are comfortable enough in your own skin to take it up with him, that might be the best way to go. If you can take him aside, look him in the eye, and tell him calmly what was wrong about his remark, that would be good.

If he accepts that he was wrong, job well done - one more strand of unthinking misogyny cut.

If he does not accept it, then escalate. Speak to your manager, and include the fact that speaking directly to your colleague has not produced a good result.

Big Bag of Chips

But people tend to say things without thinking.. if you feel it was an inappropriate comment to make to you - then it was. Just because another person wouldn't find it inappropriate doesn't mean that you shouldn't.. do you know what I mean?

I think your best bet is to approach him directly. It will be embarrassing, and a difficult thing to raise for both of you, but once it's done it's done and he'll most likely know he shouldn't say it to someone else!

Your family planning and how many kids you have or how close/spaced apart you have them is none of his business. I had 3 kids in very quick succession. I got paid maternity leave on all of them. And 2 were so close together that due to being out of work due to "pregnancy complications" I didn't return to work at all between 2 of them. I'm sure people were talking about me!

But, as I said - your family planning plans are nobody else's business.

leeroybrown

My suggestion is that if it was a one off and this guy doesn't make a habit of demeaning comments that you put it down to him accidentally crossing the line and either forget about it or just have a quiet word without being overly accusing. There's no point hanging someone over an off the cuff comment if it's out of character. On the other hand if the guy makes a habit of it then maybe it's worth pushing a little further.

leggo

leeroybrown wrote: »

My suggestion is that if it was a one off and this guy doesn't make a habit of demeaning comments that you put it down to him accidentally crossing the line and either forget about it or just have a quiet word without being overly accusing. There's no point hanging someone over an off the cuff comment if it's out of character. On the other hand if the guy makes a habit of it then maybe it's worth pushing a little further.

Agree with this. The way I'd read the comment without knowing the guy (which is huge for context's sake) is that it's a light-hearted observation, though perhaps a little ill-advised. If it's the only run-in like this you've had with the guy, no need to be offended.

Since he is a senior, there's a small chance he could've been trying to drop a hint that he dislikes this carry on but is powerless to stop it... to put social pressure on you to avoid doing it at a later date, if you were thinking about it. In other words, your colleagues would perceive you as fiddling the system if they had to pick up the extra workload repeatedly after you came back and left again shortly afterwards. So you'd either have to deal with getting a bad reputation or be discouraged from doing so. It's not applicable if you're not thinking of doing so, though, so there's no need to be offended.

Remember, too, that if someone makes a comment outside of your regular working environment that isn't work-related, you're not duty bound to have to agree with them or just take it, regardless of their authority in the workplace.

You can either make a light-hearted, but snipey, comment back or pull them up there and then for a discussion of the issue, if that's what they want. But you have to be tactful in the way you do it and remember to pick your battles too. Do it correctly and you'll get respect (all of my past/current employers know I'm not one to cross, but at the same time know that I could discuss things constructively), do it incorrectly and you'll unnecessarily strain working relationships. So tact is completely the key here.

Its totally inappropriate to make such comments. As a man, I would be outraged and want to escalate. I may be biased as I have 5 kids but its not his business and should keep his accusations and insinuations to himself.

Kooli

I don't think he meant any personal offence to you or that you were fiddling the system, but I would worry about the effect it would have on an organisation when a senior member of staff talks about the maternity leave policy (and the women who avail of it) in this way.
The knock-on effects could be that resentment builds towards women who take it, and that women who take it feel guilty or feel like they need to 'space out' their pregnancies, or that generally a divide between men and women will grow, and this could filter into recruitment practices.

I know it's just a comment, but small comments like this (particularly from senior staff) are what create the culture in an organisation.

mood

Kooli wrote: »

I don't think he meant any personal offence to you or that you were fiddling the system, but I would worry about the effect it would have on an organisation when a senior member of staff talks about the maternity leave policy (and the women who avail of it) in this way.
The knock-on effects could be that resentment builds towards women who take it, and that women who take it feel guilty or feel like they need to 'space out' their pregnancies, or that generally a divide between men and women will grow, and this could filter into recruitment practices.

I know it's just a comment, but small comments like this (particularly from senior staff) are what create the culture in an organisation.

Also someone could take the company to court over such a comment. He is very foolish and leaving the company open to such a court case. How did other people react to his comment?

username123

Absolutely you should say something!!

If he had made a racist comment in a work environment it would not be appropriate, nor should sexism be tolerated. It is in fact a form of discrimination and particularly a more senior staff member should know this.

Ive no problem pulling people up on these kinds of issues in a work environment although admittedly I have always addressed racism, sexism, homophobia or any other bigotry directly and immediately addressed to the person who made the comment - in the same situation. Usually a direct confrontation results in an immediate apology. Particularly as when you address it out loud, immediately, other people tend to agree with you even if they havent spoken up.

However, now that the moment has passed Id be inclined to complain to whoever is relevant, HR or his boss or your own boss.

If people are allowed to make these kinds of comments it filters down and generates a bigoted culture where people think its ok to say things like this. Thats not acceptable. Not in life actually, but especially not in the workplace.

LegacyUser

I'd say your taking the comment out of context, I'd say he was joking. Something I would say jokingly. If he was serious or had a gripe about it there would be lots more comments or innuendo. Reporting it if it meant nothing would just make things a whole lot more awkward.

LegacyUser

I think the worst thing about comments like these is that they imply there is innately something wrong with women having children and working. How very 1950's.

There is a system. It is designed to facilitate women having children and working. It is designed to facilitate this in whatever way suits you and your family. That some men still feel so annoyed about this is a little sad, but definitely damaging as it's not like men can actually stand up to the mark and have the babies. Is it?

You should feel absolutely comfortable having your family however that works for you. The system for parenting is designed to give you up to 26 weeks paid state leave with holidays, another period of unpaid leave and also unpaid parental leave. It is up to you to use these pieces to make sure you have what you need for your family.

And finally, how very dare he!

Wompa1

Sysyes wrote: »

I think the worst thing about comments like these is that they imply there is innately something wrong with women having children and working. How very 1950's.

There is a system. It is designed to facilitate women having children and working. It is designed to facilitate this in whatever way suits you and your family. That some men still feel so annoyed about this is a little sad, but definitely damaging as it's not like men can actually stand up to the mark and have the babies. Is it?

You should feel absolutely comfortable having your family however that works for you. The system for parenting is designed to give you up to 26 weeks paid state leave with holidays, another period of unpaid leave and also unpaid parental leave. It is up to you to use these pieces to make sure you have what you need for your family.

And finally, how very dare he!

You know he said it jokingly...you know it, I mean you are even saying if he said it as an insult it was thinly veiled. Some women DO take advantage of the fact it's nearly impossible to get fired. I know about 6 women from my own workplace who have taken extended leave came back for 2 months and went on maternity leave again for an extended leave.

It's not like he was saying you were sure to do that. But it does happen, who cares. That's like when I was leaving my last job my boss made a joke about me losing all my money in Vegas and coming home again. I didn't take offense...I don't gamble but some people do. MEH

leggo

Exactly, I can think of at least three people I know personally who could be easily accused of doing it.

People's family-planning is obviously their own business, but it doesn't mean that someone is entitled to be paid by a company to sit at home for years and raise their children. Maternity pay is in place to facilitate mothers who do want to work, it's an opportunity. But if someone doesn't want to work, they shouldn't take the money even if it's available. Just quit and become a full-time mother if that's what you want.

It is done commonly, it's a fair and valid concern for employers, he didn't accuse the OP directly (just made a light-hearted comment concerning something that is widespread), it's a bit of a non-issue really.

mood

I know nobody who did that. Anyone who I do know who has had children close together was accidental. Do you honestly think someone would go through pregnancy, childbirth and then have to raise a child into adulthood just to get 6 months paid leave???

P. Breathnach

OP asked if this was inappropriate:

... He said that more than likely I'd be back at work pregnant and then taking advantage of another stint of maternity leave (our company pays us in full on maternity leave which is a huge bonus) because 'That's how all the women work the system'....

To me, it's very simple: there is no way in which it is acceptable to say such a thing in a work environment, not even if it is disguised as banter. It is misogyny.

leggo

mood wrote: »

I know nobody who did that. Anyone who I do know who has had children close together was accidental. Do you honestly think someone would go through pregnancy, childbirth and then have to raise a child into adulthood just to get 6 months paid leave???

I think it works the other way around: you want to have multiple children anyway so try and work it around the fact you can get paid time off work. That makes much more sense.

mood

leggo wrote: »

I think it works the other way around: you want to have multiple children anyway so try and work it around the fact you can get paid time off work. That makes much more sense.

I know nobody who ever did that. It is extremely difficult to mind two babies close in age that is why very few people do it. In fact I know couples who have have to space out kids so 2 are not in preschool/childcare at the same time as they couldn't afford it. These are 2 couples where both women have got full pay while on maternity leave. Also a lot of couples have problems conceiving never mind timing a 2nd pregnancy like that.

This man is very to say what he said even if he meant it as a joke.

Ickle Magoo

Folks - this is an advice forum for civil, mature and constructive advice; if you want to soap-box issues you have with current maternity laws then do so on the relevant forum.

Please be aware that off-topic and unhelpful posting can earn you a ban from this forum.

If you haven't already done so, please take the time to read the [URL=" http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056181484"]forum rules[/URL] in the charter.

Many thanks.


As per site rules, any issue with moderator action should be taken up via PM and NOT on-thread

xsiborg

P. Breathnach wrote: »

OP asked if this was inappropriate:

... He said that more than likely I'd be back at work pregnant and then taking advantage of another stint of maternity leave (our company pays us in full on maternity leave which is a huge bonus) because 'That's how all the women work the system'....

To me, it's very simple: there is no way in which it is acceptable to say such a thing in a work environment, not even if it is disguised as banter. It is misogyny.

it wasnt said in a work environment, it was said outside the work environment, on a coffee morning, when everyone would've been more relaxed and let their guard down.

if the guy actually held these views, chances are more likely he wouldnt have turned up at an occasion to wish the OP well with her pregnancy, he would have stayed back in his office and bítched and moaned instead to anyone who he thought would share his views.

the OP was offended by the comment, but quite honestly imho she has bigger things to be thinking about. she's better off just to let it go, the guy was making a joke among company that in his mind would understand that he was joking and meant no offence. the OP knew he was joking, but instead of dismissing it as such, she actively chose to take offence.

i dont think there was any intentional offence meant, honestly OP you're taking this way too much to heart, just let it go and concentrate on your pregnancy.

congratulations and all the best OP...

strandroad

I think it was highly inappropriate, on two levels: it was personal insult and a display of workplace prejudice, which affects workplace policy and atmosphere.

I would have a brief chat with the guy to let him know that you did not appreciate the comment personally and also that it is at odds with company policy and may create workplace tensions. If he acknowledges and apologises I'd leave it at that.

sharper

Nobody here can tell you if his comment was appropriate.

There's a reason "hearsay" isn't allowed in court - you can take something someone said and when you present it out of that context it sounds completely different and possibly menacing/criminal.

Example: "And then he said 'I'll kill you if you have another baby'". That could either be a very light hearted joke between friends or a serious threat to life. Which it is depends on a lot of factors.

Nobody here in this forum has access to the information needed to evaluate his comment. I'd go against the advice of those here suggesting you should report him, you need a much stronger basis on which to make a complaint than a comment you feel potentially annoyed with.

Note down what he said and when he said it somewhere. If he does/says something similar in the future mention to him you don't like him speaking that way, he may well be totally mortified you took offence. If it still doesn't stop then you make a complaint and present everything, including the fact you asked him to stop.

LegacyUser

OP here. Thanks for replies. This manager is actually the person who conducts my evaluations and is my immediate superior. I'm just concerned that even if this is a joke, it does indicate how he feels about me going on maternity leave and should I decide to have another child close in age to my current pregnancy in the back of his mind he thinks I'm simply fiddling the system.

D rog

xsiborg wrote: »

the OP was offended by the comment, but quite honestly imho she has bigger things to be thinking about. she's better off just to let it go, the guy was making a joke among company that in his mind would understand that he was joking and meant no offence. the OP knew he was joking, but instead of dismissing it as such, she actively chose to take offence.

It is misogyny. And I think society, and at the very least women, have a duty to not accept casual misogyny in any setting. That's how societies improve and change.

sharper

D rog wrote: »

It is misogyny. And I think society, and at the very least women, have a duty to not accept casual misogyny in any setting. That's how societies improve and change.

Societies also improve and change by taking a calm measured view of situations. You've labelled a guy a misogynist based purely on a single comment that you've heard second hand.

notjustamumtobe wrote: »

OP here. Thanks for replies. This manager is actually the person who conducts my evaluations and is my immediate superior. I'm just concerned that even if this is a joke, it does indicate how he feels about me going on maternity leave and should I decide to have another child close in age to my current pregnancy in the back of his mind he thinks I'm simply fiddling the system.

Even if he does and tried to give you a poor evaluation without good basis then you'll have a very strong case against the company because that type of behaviour simply isn't tolerated.

It's very likely people going on leave is inconvenient for him and maybe his comment is a reflection of that frustration but there's a long road from that to him deciding to make life hard for you because of it.

D rog

sharper wrote: »

Societies also improve and change by taking a calm measured view of situations. You've labelled a guy a misogynist based purely on a single comment that you've heard second hand.

Low level 'normal' misogyny is actually very common as far as I can see. In light of that I think it's reasonable to call that behaviour. He may not see the comment as being in any way problematic and may be ignorant of his own faults so it absolutely may not be intentional. Perhaps.

OP, listen, at this stage all you can do is ignore the comments and enjoy your time with your new family. The best advice is to deal with any problems as they arise.

P. Breathnach

notjustamumtobe wrote: »

OP here. Thanks for replies. This manager is actually the person who conducts my evaluations and is my immediate superior. I'm just concerned that even if this is a joke, it does indicate how he feels about me going on maternity leave and should I decide to have another child close in age to my current pregnancy in the back of his mind he thinks I'm simply fiddling the system.

I think you are right to be concerned. In your original post it was not clear to me that he is your immediate superior; your work relationship casts his remarks in a worse light.

I stand by what I said earlier: I think it would be best if you were comfortable with explaining directly to him what was wrong about what he said. I do not think you should be satisfied with his shrugging it off as a joke: you need him to recognise that what he said was inappropriate. If he does not see that, I think you might need to go up the line.

xsiborg

P. Breathnach wrote: »

notjustamumtobe wrote: »

OP here. Thanks for replies. This manager is actually the person who conducts my evaluations and is my immediate superior. I'm just concerned that even if this is a joke, it does indicate how he feels about me going on maternity leave and should I decide to have another child close in age to my current pregnancy in the back of his mind he thinks I'm simply fiddling the system.

I think you are right to be concerned. In your original post it was not clear to me that he is your immediate superior; your work relationship casts his remarks in a worse light.

I stand by what I said earlier: I think it would be best if you were comfortable with explaining directly to him what was wrong about what he said. I do not think you should be satisfied with his shrugging it off as a joke: you need him to recognise that what he said was inappropriate. If he does not see that, I think you might need to go up the line.

mountain out of a molehill there P. a one off comment that was made in jest, outside the work environment where the guy thought he was among like-minded friends that would understand he was only messing.

the OP is pregnant, and should be thinking about that rather than a comment that chances are the guy wont even remember making.

the OP is way overthinking this one, and i dont think the guy is going to be any way discriminatory towards her not if she'd ten babies in a row one after the other.

sure why not follow through then if the OP feels that strongly about it and sue for sexual harassment, see how far that'd get. it wouldnt even be entertained, and its incidents like this that are blown out of proportion that make it harder on genuine victims of sexual harassment to be taken seriously.

a one off, off the cuff comment, is proof of nothing

Lawliet

xsiborg wrote: »

mountain out of a molehill there P. a one off comment that was made in jest, outside the work environment where the guy thought he was among like-minded friends that would understand he was only messing.

the OP is pregnant, and should be thinking about that rather than a comment that chances are the guy wont even remember making.

It being a joke doesn't make the comment acceptable. If someone is offended by someone else's comments, dismissing it as "just messing" doesn't make the comment okay.
I'm not saying this guy meant what he said, but it frankly doesn't matter if he did or not, he still made a problematic comment and that bothered the OP. It would do him no harm to be called out on this, then maybe he will think twice before making an insensitive comment like this again.

Also the comments dismissing the OP feelings about the incident and telling her to focus on her pregnancy are unnecessary and rather sexist, the OP is looking for advice about a particular incident, her pregnancy is no ones business but her own.

LegacyUser

I don't think it was an appropriate comment but a lot of people seem to say dumb things in the work place and you can't go and complain every time it happens, it's not primary school. I would certainly take a note of it. If these comments continue over a period of time then you have a case but really if you didn't like it you should have said there and then that you thought it was unfair. The truth is H.R. aren't interested in one off isolated incidents where members of staff are mildly insulted. Be wary of this person from now on..

xsiborg

Lawliet wrote: »

xsiborg wrote: »

mountain out of a molehill there P. a one off comment that was made in jest, outside the work environment where the guy thought he was among like-minded friends that would understand he was only messing.

the OP is pregnant, and should be thinking about that rather than a comment that chances are the guy wont even remember making.

It being a joke doesn't make the comment acceptable. If someone is offended by someone else's comments, dismissing it as "just messing" doesn't make the comment okay.
I'm not saying this guy meant what he said, but it frankly doesn't matter if he did or not, he still made a problematic comment and that bothered the OP. It would do him no harm to be called out on this, then maybe he will think twice before making an insensitive comment like this again.

Also the comments dismissing the OP feelings about the incident and telling her to focus on her pregnancy are unnecessary and rather sexist, the OP is looking for advice about a particular incident, her pregnancy is no ones business but her own.

i'd have taken it more seriously if it had been said IN the workplace, and if there had been no witnesses present, thereby creating a scenario where the guys comments could've been construed then as her superior making a malicious remark.

but it wasnt, this was a coffee morning among friends, all saw themselves on an equal social level, so yes while i can understand where the OP is coming from, and the idea of this forum is support for the OP, sometimes its trivial matters like this that are blown out of proportion that dilute the effectiveness of this forum, in the same way as they dilute the issue of what is sexual harassment in the workplace from being taken seriously.

Ickle Magoo

OK OP - just as you required advice on how to view the comment as you can see, there are mixed views on whether his comment was appropriate or not.

You are going to have to decide if YOU view it as inappropriate and decide what, if any, action to take.

As the thread is just going around in circles and getting off-topic, I'm locking it. If you want it re-opened as you have further information to add or another aspect you require advice on, please contact a PI mod in confidence.

All the best.