If Alex Ferguson Repeated His 86-90 Tenure In This Era, Would He Have Been Sacked??

SharpshooterTom

I was looking at Alex Ferguson's record as United manager when he first came in back in 1986 after leaving Aberdeen, and these were his records:

1986-87 - 11th and trophyless
1987-88 - 2nd and trophyless
1988-89 - 11th and trophyless
1989-90 - 13th and Fa Cup (finished only 5 points above the relegation zone)

His Signings were:

1987
Viv Anderson - Arsenal - 250,000
Brian McClair - Celtic - 850,000
Steve Bruce - Norwich - 825,000

1988
Jim Leighton - Aberdeen - 750,000
Lee Sharpe - Torquay - 180,000
Mal Donaghy - Luton Town - 650,000
Ralph Mine - Bristol City - 170,000
Mark Hughes - Barcelona - 1,800,000
Giuliano Mairoana - Histon - 30,000

1989
Mike Phelan - Norwich - 750,000
Gary Pallister - Middlesbrough - 2,300,000
Neill Web - Nott. Forest - 1,500,000
Brian Carey - Corke - 100,000
Danny Wallace - Southampton - 1,200,000
Paul Ince - West Ham - 1,500,000


Erm....surely if managed in todays climate with those results he would have been sacked?? Not a hope of him surviving IMO with todays owners abramovich et al.

Gary Pallister was a record transfer fee for a defender and the highest between two British clubs at the time so also spent a whack of money in the equivalent of those days.

He spent over 7 million in 1989 alone which was a ton of money then, and only come 5 points of the relegation zone, surely trophy or no trophy after 4 years he would be a goner today??

UnitedIrishman

Yes. Discussion over?

eagle eye

Probably would have been gone after his first season, deffo would have been gone after his third season, no quesiton about it.

All these owners need to open up the book 'how to build a hugely successful football club' and go straight to the Manchester United/Alex Ferguson section.

And before somebody asks, I made up that book and section.

Kidchameleon

I'm not so sure. Its more about money and instant success these days. In the past, it was about the football.

Mr Alan

Undoubtedly.

People will say, "oh well but football is different now!" as if thats some sort of justification or excuse for owners/fans desire for immediate gratification & succcess when in reality, it being "different" now is exactly the point. It's totally ****ed now. It wasn't then.

Augmerson

eagle eye wrote: »

All these owners need to open up the book 'how to build a hugely successful football club' and go straight to the Manchester United/Alex Ferguson section.

Is there a chapter or sub-section which describes Fergie spending loads of money to get anywhere?

Blatter

Yes, but Ferguson is an anomaly.

His period should not be used as a serious reference in relation to all managers that get sacked today after a poor season or two.

He broke the Old Firm dominance in Scotland and had won a European competition with Aberdeen, beating Real Madrid in the final. He was young and it was clear he had the talent to be a top manager, if he was persisted with.

Turtyturd

Hard to say what would have happened, United didn't have the same expectations back then that they have now. If they had similar expectations he probably would have been safe as long as he didn't get relegated. However winning the title changed their expectations so if he repeated them he would have been sacked within the first two seasons.

eagle eye

Augmerson wrote: »

Is there a chapter or sub-section which describes Fergie spending loads of money to get anywhere?

There is and what you'll find when you go there is that Ferguson spent huge money on his defense and midfield and only when he was happy with that he went out and spent big money on attacking players.

lordgoat

Mr Alan wrote: »

Undoubtedly.

People will say, "oh well but football is different now!" as if thats some sort of justification or excuse for owners/fans desire for immediate gratification & succcess when in reality, it being "different" now is exactly the point. It's totally ****ed now. It wasn't then.

Here is is for 2012, Mr. A's post that i agree with.

Perfectly said A.

lordgoat

eagle eye wrote: »

There is and what you'll find when you go there is that Ferguson spent huge money on his defense and midfield and only when he was happy with that he went out and spent big money on attacking players.

You also miss out on the players he got rid of as well. Which were just as important to the club as those he bought. He changed the whole dynamic of the club, ushered in a more professional approach to football.

eagle eye

Turtyturd wrote: »

Hard to say what would have happened, United didn't have the same expectations back then that they have now. If they had similar expectations he probably would have been safe as long as he didn't get relegated. However winning the title changed their expectations so if he repeated them he would have been sacked within the first two seasons.

United supporters expected to challenge for the league every season before it began. They had the most money and the biggest support and every year it didn't happen was a disappointment. They were not happy with the manager unless they seen progress and they didn't see that in Ferguson's third season.

eagle eye

lordgoat wrote: »

You also miss out on the players he got rid of as well. Which were just as important to the club as those he bought. He changed the whole dynamic of the club, ushered in a more professional approach to football.

I'm well aware of that.

PhlegmyMoses

It depends. United would have to have fallen so much that fans may be relatively happy to believe in a project and a manager. Imagine United 20 years without a title and being second bottom in the league in November and then having someone with the strength of personality of Fergie taking over. 4 years would be pushing it though. The Liverpool fans believed in Benitez to a similar extent.

Mr Alan

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

The Liverpool fans believed in Benitez to a similar extent.

Not all of em. And we were mocked for it.

Plus Benitez won a CL & FA Cup in his first two seasons.

MisterAnarchy

Of course he'd be sacked ,he was on the brink in Jan 1990 .
15th in the league at that stage and already eliminated from the Football League Cup .
If he had lost away to Nottingham Forest in the cup he was going to be sacked but we all know how Mark Robbins scored that famous goal.
Imagine just for one minute he had missed ,Utd may still be in the doldrums.

yeah he would

http://www.whoateallthepies.tv/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Tara1.jpg

The_Kew_Tour

MisterAnarchy wrote: »

Of course he'd be sacked ,he was on the brink in Jan 1990 .
15th in the league at that stage and already eliminated from the Football League Cup .
If he had lost away to Nottingham Forest in the cup he was going to be sacked but we all know how Mark Robbins scored that famous goal.
Imagine just for one minute he had missed ,Utd may still be in the doldrums.

Mr Alan

Mr Alan wrote: »

Not all of em. And we were mocked for it.

Plus Benitez won a CL & FA Cup in his first two seasons.

...and the following year got to another CL final !

If we'd have won that there'd be a fcuking statue of the man outside Anfield!

speedboatchase

If he wasted £100 million in the process, sure...

plasmaguy

I think he has two people to thank for his success in the early years, Mark Robbins and Eric Cantona.

In the 1992/93 season, they went through an awful patch of not scoring in games, before Cantona arrived on the scene. He was a major catalyst and they started to score freely with him in the side.

Cantona was a massive player for Utd domestically, there was one season where he'd just pop up with a winner or equaliser when all seemed lost.

Stats about Cantona's career are amazing. He won something like 4 league titles in a row, with Marsaille, Leeds and Man Utd, and then a couple more with United.

I'm not even sure United would have won the league in 1992/93 without Cantona and his ability to get crucial scores and also assists.

Ferguson has a lot to thank him for, no wonder he stuck by him in 1995.

Jimmy Iovine

rarnes1 wrote: »

yeah he would

http://www.whoateallthepies.tv/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Tara1.jpg

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2011/nov/05/sir-alex-ferguson-banner

stovelid

Yup.

Even the FA cup wouldn't buy you some time these days like it did for him.

Jimmy Iovine

plasmaguy wrote: »

I think he has two people to thank for his success in the early years, Mark Robbins and Eric Cantona.

In the 1992/93 season, they went through an awful patch of not scoring in games, before Cantona arrived on the scene. He was a major catalyst and they started to score freely with him in the side.

Cantona was a massive player for Utd domestically, there was one season where he'd just pop up with a winner or equaliser when all seemed lost.

Stats about Cantona's career are amazing. He won something like 4 league titles in a row, with Marsaille, Leeds and Man Utd, and then a couple more with United.

I'm not even sure United would have won the league in 1992/93 without Cantona and his ability to get crucial scores and also assists.

Ferguson has a lot to thank him for, no wonder he stuck by him in 1995.

7 leagues in 9 years. Pretty brilliant considering he was sent on loan for one of the seasons he didn't win and he was banned for another season.

It'd be great to have owners who were patient and realised that it takes time to build a team but everyone wants instant success. To be honest I think the only manager in the world that can almost guarantee that is Mourinho.

It'll be interesting when Fergie leaves. I hope United are patient with the next manager. I've no doubt that the appointment will be the right one. Whether he's given the time to work his magic will be another thing though. I suspect with Fergie still in the club that he will get the time he needs.

AgileMyth

Blatter wrote: »

Yes, but Ferguson is an anomaly.

His period should not be used as a serious reference in relation to all managers that get sacked today after a poor season or two.

He broke the Old Firm dominance in Scotland and had won a European competition with Aberdeen, beating Real Madrid in the final. He was young and it was clear he had the talent to be a top manager, if he was persisted with.

Villas Boas didn't last too long and there are many comparisons to be drawn there.

Brain Stroking

I wonder if football was the same as in the 1920s would Herbert Chapman have gotten the time needed at Arsenal to implement his vision especially after finishing second to Huddersfield in the 1925/26 season shortly after taking over?

barryd09

Yes Fergie would have been sacked if his first 4 years were these days, no doubt about it.

K-9

Gnobe wrote: »

1987

Brian McClair - Celtic - 850,000
Steve Bruce - Norwich - 825,000

1988
Jim Leighton - Aberdeen - 750,000
Mal Donaghy - Luton Town - 650,000
Mark Hughes - Barcelona - 1,800,000


1989
Mike Phelan - Norwich - 750,000
Gary Pallister - Middlesbrough - 2,300,000
Neill Web - Nott. Forest - 1,500,000
Danny Wallace - Southampton - 1,200,000
Paul Ince - West Ham - 1,500,000

Augmerson wrote: »

Is there a chapter or sub-section which describes Fergie spending loads of money to get anywhere?

All those were big or massive money for the time.

aidan24326

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

What he was getting at, I think, is that Ferguson was so instrumental in changing everything about the way the club and the team was run, that had he been sacked United might not have gone on to be the force they now are.

Fergie didn't just build a team he transformed the whole way that they did things. Comparing him with other managers who did or didn't get sacked is kinda pointless though because he's a bit of a freak really.

UnitedIrishman

K-9 wrote: »

All those were big or massive money for the time.

Just on this Fergie buying X and Y amount for Z. He spent a net total of 10.7m in 6 years (1986-92) which is reasonable enough in comparison to the size of the club. Liverpool spent roughly 7.8m net during the same years.

Don't want to open all this debate again but Fergie spent the same as most of the big clubs were spending.

But as I said, he wouldn't have survived in the current climate and for that we owe Martin Edwards a bit.

ShooterSF

UnitedIrishman wrote: »

Just on this Fergie buying X and Y amount for Z. He spent a net total of 10.7m in 6 years (1986-92) which is reasonable enough in comparison to the size of the club. Liverpool spent roughly 7.8m net during the same years.

Don't want to open all this debate again but Fergie spent the same as most of the big clubs were spending.

But as I said, he wouldn't have survived in the current climate and for that we owe Martin Edwards a bit.

I dont think you're helping Fergie's cause there and that's said as a United fan. That's 37% more than one of their biggest rivals.

Warper

If my auntie had balls she would be my uncle thread

K-9

UnitedIrishman wrote: »

Just on this Fergie buying X and Y amount for Z. He spent a net total of 10.7m in 6 years (1986-92) which is reasonable enough in comparison to the size of the club. Liverpool spent roughly 7.8m net during the same years.

Don't want to open all this debate again but Fergie spent the same as most of the big clubs were spending.

But as I said, he wouldn't have survived in the current climate and for that we owe Martin Edwards a bit.

Some of the big money signings were poor, some proved great long term. You just don't get that type of time any more.

UnitedIrishman

K-9 wrote: »

Some of the big money signings were poor, some proved great long term. You just don't get that type of time any more.

True that. For us, when Fergie goes that's going to be the most important thing. Firstly, get the right person in place and secondly, give them time. Unless they bring us to the brink of relegation or bankruptcy then I'd be in favour of giving them 2-3 seasons to prove themselves.

joshrogan

Maybe if AVB had been given the time he could have created a dynasty at Chelsea like Ferguson at man utd.

SharpshooterTom

Wasn't one of the biggest breaks Ferguson had was his youth team of 1991?

_blank_

What is the point of this thread?

It's a stupid premise, and it's a stupid comparison.

Deluded cretins thinking Ferguson is "lucky" or some shít.

Fúck sake.

daithijjj

Des wrote: »

What is the point of this thread?

It's a stupid premise, and it's a stupid comparison.

Deluded cretins thinking Ferguson is "lucky" or some shít.

Fúck sake.

Calm down dear, im sure its just being used as an example into how the game used to be and how it is now. Jaysus sake, even Ferguson said he was lucky to get the time back then.

Liam O

Gnobe wrote: »

Wasn't one of the biggest breaks Ferguson had was his youth team of 1991?

yeah he had nothing to do with that though, he just got lucky...

What changed United was the signings of Keane and Cantona. Fergie pulled all the stops to get Keane and it paid off. Still don't know how he convinced Fotherby and Wilkinson to sell Cantona for so little more than they paid for him too...

Sappy404

Warper wrote: »

If my auntie had balls she would be my uncle thread

Can't comprehend hypothetical situations thread

G.K.

Liam O wrote: »

yeah he had nothing to do with that though, he just got lucky...

What changed United was the signings of Keane and Cantona. Fergie pulled all the stops to get Keane and it paid off. Still don't know how he convinced Fotherby and Wilkinson to sell Cantona for so little more than they paid for him too...

Because they seemed to only value Cantona as an impact sub, I think...

Brain Stroking

Des wrote: »

What is the point of this thread?

It's a stupid premise, and it's a stupid comparison.

Deluded cretins thinking Ferguson is "lucky" or some shít.

Fúck sake.

Its a deflection from the great King Kenny being told "Dont let the door hit your arse on the way out"

kippy

If that happened today, he'd be sacked after the third season.
More importantly United would probably be in administration after the third season (maybe even the first).

daithijjj

Brain Stroking wrote: »

Its a deflection from the great King Kenny being told "Dont let the door hit your arse on the way out"

Settle down lad, come out from behind the wall of sandbags and check the OP out, barely a fleeting interest in the Soccer forum imo.

The jist of the point is true, its simple, remove Ferguson from the title and stick anyone in who got a few years of time to build something back in the day. Its hardly a wind up, Alex Ferguson agrees with it.

Can we not discuss how the game has changed without waving our delicate pink bits over the internet?

Rekop dog

For every Fergie (of which there aren't many) there's probably countless examples of teams who stuck with the wrong manager for too long back then but you never hear about these.Just because he became a roaring success after a good few years of relative failure doesn't necessarily mean that patience and time= eventual success. The truth is if people so wanted they could justify almost any firing in the last 10 years as being harsh when compared, doesn't mean they're right.

Draupnir

Two people are to thank for Ferguson getting the time to work at his project and they sure as hell aren't Mark Robins and Eric Cantona.

They are Martin Edwards and Matt Busby.

As long as Sir Matt backed Ferguson within the club, he was never really close to being sacked. The closest Ferguson came to leaving, as far as he is concered, was over a very poor contract that he was offered by the club which he talks about in his book.

I honestly don't think he would have been sacked if Robins hadn't scored that goal, I think that just served to galvanise the club by keeping it in he cup and giving the club something to put in front of the fans as progress. We scraped the FA Cup win anyway.

As Alan said, football is absolutely destroyed now, every season a promoted manager (or a couple) are lauded as outstanding football managers with brilliant tactical nous etc. before the following season their team struggles and they get sacked by Christmas. Roberto Martinez is the greatest example ever, he goes from tactical genius to no hoper every month.

He has been linked with Man United, Liverpool and Chelsea over the last 3 seasons while also being tipped as next manager to be sacked in the league on a regular basis.

LuckyLloyd

kippy wrote: »

If that happened today, he'd be sacked after the third season.
More importantly United would probably be in administration after the third season (maybe even the first).

That's a really good point actually. Amazing how different the game is 20 years on. I can't really say it is better for all that change if I'm honest. Football was still gripping in the late pre premiership / champions league era, and player salaries at the top level had become more appropriate. It was still easy to follow the sport too.

How exactly has the mass commercialisation of the game improved things for us fans?

_blank_

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

How exactly has the mass commercialisation of the game improved things for us fans?

More good teams competing in the top competition.

easier access to more top teams on the TV

improved facilities at grounds, due to TV money and commercial deals

better players in the EPL

safer, more family oriented match day experience

LuckyLloyd

Des wrote: »

More good teams competing in the top competition.

easier access to more top teams on the TV

improved facilities at grounds, due to TV money and commercial deals

better players in the EPL

safer, more family oriented match day experience

Surely that would have happened anyway in the aftermath of Heysel and Hillsborough?

marwelie

There's no doubt in my mind he would have been given his P45 if Sir Matt Busby and, more importantly, Bobby Charlton, who was and still is on Utd's board, hadn't been around at the time. I'm fairly sure that Alex Ferguson has publicly stated that he would have been a goner by 1990 if it hadn't been for BC's insistence that SAF was the right man for the job. Utd were broke, the attendances were awful and the football not much better when Mark Robins scored that goal against Forest in the cup.

It just goes to show that with a bit of luck and a gut instinct things can turn out ok. Too many clubs are struggling because of a lack of stability and leadership at managerial level. Dave Whelan is the only chairman in the Premier League at the moment who has shown that loyalty to your manager can reward you. When Wigan were relegation fodder nearing the end of the season he could have easily bitten the bullet and got a new man in, but he trusted Martinez to do the job and they stayed up. I wonder how long they can keep hold of him though.

Draupnir

The most surprising thing has been that Ferguson has successfully transitioned from managing footballers from working class backgrounds that cleaned boots on YTS contracts to developing and managing players who are picked up at 12 and treated like gods for their entire careers.

I can't imagine C. Ronaldo or Rooney cleaned many boots or did much sweeping out of dressing rooms.

The changes in the game over the last twenty five years have been immense, some of them at basic levels that have destroyed other managers. It's arguable that the change to the backpass rule ended Liverpool's dominance and also finished Brian Clough off as a manager for example.

Sorry if that's a bit off topic!