how short is too short 10/22

andyone

i will be collecting my new 10/22 target shortly.... and was considering shortening the barrel.... as is it 20".. i would like to shorten it as much as possible with out loosing any accuracy..... anyone i've talked to say's take it back to 16.5"... and i know that this would increase velocity.... but i'm wondering about accuracy....????

as ye know the factory .920" barrel has a 1:16" twist and i'll only ever be shooting subs thru it....

if it was shortened more would the subsonic rounds leave the barrel supersonic... as the remainder of the barrel which would normally slow the bullet down, would be gone...????

has any one shortened theirs to 12.5".... how did this effect performance????

clivej

Most will tell you that it takes 16"-17" to burn all the powder in a rimfire case. So with that in mind I'd say go for a 16 1/2" barrel.

Cass

andyone wrote: »

i will be collecting my new 10/22 target shortly.... and was considering shortening the barrel.... as is it 20".. i would like to shorten it as much as possible with out loosing any accuracy..... anyone i've talked to say's take it back to 16.5"... and i know that this would increase velocity.... but i'm wondering about accuracy....????

Pain in the ass time.

There's been a lot of discussion of this point on the forum before now. There some grey area in the law as to buying a rifle that already has a sub-50cm barrel on it when it comes into the country,but there is absolutely no grey area at all when you shorten the barrel below 50cm.

That's explicitly illegal under section 12A of the fireams act.

if it was shortened more would the subsonic rounds leave the barrel supersonic... as the remainder of the barrel which would normally slow the bullet down, would be gone...????

Most subsonic ammo travels between 980fps and 1080fps. That's the maximum speed/velocity that charge in that round can deliver. Supersonic speed kicks in after 1128 (IIRC) fps. Even a shorter barrel, and faster twist would not be able to turn a subsonic round into a supersonic round. The charge in the subs are designed to give "X"fps as a maximum velocity.

Of course that's only my take, and i'm sure someone somewhere has done an experiment to prove that wrong so i stand to be corrected.

steyrman2

why shorten it all if you cut it down if you fire hv ammo there will be mussle flip and a sharp crack in your ears after a few mags of hv ammo it will turn your stomach 20 inch barrel looks good and easy manage but if your firing subs all the time you could cut the size of the mod of the end

andyone

"There's been a lot of discussion of this point on the forum before now. There some grey area in the law as to buying a rifle that already has a sub-50cm barrel on it when it comes into the country,but there is absolutely no grey area at all when you shorten the barrel below 50cm. "

in the guide lines as set out by the commisioner it states..

"That possession and carriage of any firearm including a short firearm (barrel under 30cm or overall length not exceeding 60cm)"

so am i wrong to presume that anything over these lengths is classified as a long firearm..... and that is what my licence is for.."a long firearm"....

i have read on and it does state about a barrel being 50cm to be safe....

and if i wanted i could buy a 12.5" barrel in the morning.... and i can guarantee that
Volquartsen aren't selling unsafe barrells..(or are they)

but in imho how would that stand up in court.... if i could legally buy a shorter rifle(and the work carried out on mine was done by a competent gunsmith)...:o

Chiparus

http://www.ruger.com/products/22Charger/index.html?r=y

What is the definition of a pistol in Ireland?

andyone

just got a reply on a similar forum....same question


"I have the 10/22T barrel on my rifle. Its chopped down to 12.5'' and its very accurate. Roger @syss did the work."

Sparks

andyone wrote: »

in the guide lines as set out by the commisioner it states..

That's the second time I've seen someone quote the guidelines as a get-out from section 12A, so let's be very clear in case someone has a bad day as a result of this belief - the commissioner's guidelines are guidelines. Not law. The Firearms Act is the law. The commissioner cannot overrule the law with a guideline.

The rule in 12A is one of the few black and white areas of firearms law in Ireland. If you shorten the barrel of a rifle or a shotgun below the threshold stated in the law, you are committing an offence under the firearms act unless you are a registered firearms dealer who immediately rebuilds the barrel up past the threshold (and I'm not even sure you can do that safely).

"That possession and carriage of any firearm including a short firearm (barrel under 30cm or overall length not exceeding 60cm)"
so am i wrong to presume that anything over these lengths is classified as a long firearm..... and that is what my licence is for.."a long firearm"....

Not quite - the whole long/short firearm thing is to do with pistols (the legal definition isn't for "pistol" but for "short firearm", it's been swiped from law in other jurisdictions). What that bit in the guidelines is saying is that if the firearm has a barrel over 30cm or is longer overall than 60cm, it's legally a rifle, not a pistol. So if you have a 31cm barrel on a 10/22, it's not a pistol, it's a rifle under the law... and then section 12A kicks in.

And no, you can't reduce the barrel size below 30cm and become a pistol, because you started off with a licence for a rifle...

and if i wanted i could buy a 12.5" barrel in the morning.... and i can guarantee that
Volquartsen aren't selling unsafe barrells..(or are they)

It's nothing to do with safety. At all. Nor accuracy, nor usefulness. It's purely a legal thing.

but in imho how would that stand up in court.... if i could legally buy a shorter rifle(and the work carried out on mine was done by a competent gunsmith)...:o

That's the grey area. The argument that I personally think applies - and remember, I'm not a judge, and you'd need one to agree with the argument for it to be worth anything - in this case is this: you can possess what you're licenced to possess. To elaborate:

• If you have a licence for a 10/22 with a 51cm barrel and you cut it down to below the 50cm limit, you have broken the law and your licence can't cover you, because you've materially altered the firearm you had a licence for (think about it - take the plug out of a pump-action shotgun and you've gone from a licenced unrestricted firearm to a restricted firearm and your licence is no longer valid. Same deal here).
• Now if you buy a rifle with a sub-50cm barrel, and you get a licence for that sub-50cm rifle, then you could argue in court that you were not breaking the possession part of 12A because you had legal authority in the form of your licence.

But - and this is the bit we need to scream loudly into your ear for everyone's good, not just yours -Nobody's gone to court with that argument yet so we don't know if it holds water or if it leaves you facing imprisonment for breaking Section 12A of the Firearms Act.

You rely on the "but I had a licence" argument without that court precedent, and you'd better have documented evidence in the form of a photocopy of your signed FCA1 stating that your rifle had a sub-50cm barrel, and a licence with no conditions regarding barrel length on it, and probably a five-figure sum to spend on solicitors and barristers (and yes, even if you win and have costs awarded, you will still be spending that money - court's not free unless your legal team are acting pro bono).

ps. Some links from another thread on this a fortnight ago:

Sparks wrote: »

The problem isn't so much the restricted status (though you will need a restricted licence), it's the barrel length. See here, here, here or here for past discussions on this point...

ormondprop

I was talking to a rifle smith about chopping my .22 when i was getting work done on another rifle and he said he'd have to check the barrel first before chopping it, he said a lot of factory barrels are cheaply made and sometimes have a slight bow in the middle so if you chop into the bow the gun will start shooting at an angle and you might run into trouble sighting in your scope as you might run out of elevation or windage, he said he'd check it on the lathe if i brought it to him and if it was straight enough he'd chop it and crown it.
As long as the crown is done properly you should not lose accuracy, especially as you see lots of short barrels on american and english sites, i'd love to cut my cz back to 16" and cut the iron sights off to mount my scope lower,

andyone

sounds good to me Ormo.....

clivej

A couple of points here from reading the above posts. And I have read these 'Can I shorten my barrel' threads over and over many times.

If I read it correct the act states

You cannot shorten a rifle barrel below 50cm.

BUT that is NOT to say you cannot buy a factory rifle with a barrel below 50cm, it says only shorten a barrel and that's in Black and White.

Andy if you want a 10/22 with a barrel below 50cm then buy one with a barrel below 50cm as many people do, have done and are able to go into a dealers and buy them. Just don't shorten a barrel that's already over 50cm.

And state on the application FCA1 what the barrel length is. 10/22-360 = 10/22 with a 14" barrel

Like this.

clivej

What should one do if they bought and licenced a Ruger 10/22 with a 14" barrel and then change the barrel out to a 16 1/2" barrel?

Will you then be in a 'Gray area' over lengthening a barrel???

Sparks

clivej wrote: »

What should one do if they bought and licenced a Ruger 10/22 with a 14" barrel and then change the barrel out to a 16 1/2" barrel?

Will you then be in a 'Gray area' over lengthening a barrel???

No, there's no law saying you can't lengthen a barrel, just one saying you can't shorten it past a certain point.

And while I agree with the argument you made above clive (it's the same one I've been making), just putting down the barrel length on the FCA1 won't assure you of not seeing the inside of a courtroom. It's just the bare minimum you'd want to have in the event that you find yourself being made the test case.

Honestly, I'd just not go anywhere near the 50cm limit, whether by cutting down or buying in. I'd let someone sort it out at the legislation level. I prefer to spend my money somewhere other than the courts!

clivej

And the OP ask how short is too short 10/22 not about benchrest target barrels. I always thought it was more to do with the head of a .22lr pushing into the rifling at the chamber that made the difference.

Like on my 10/22 Lothar Walther match barrel where a proprietary chamber reamer is used to ensure the cartridge and bullet feed smoothly while allowing the bullet to consistently engrave the rifling .020". This with the 11 degree crown makes it consistently accurate, but not to that of a custom benchrest rifle.

andyone

i have to say gentle men... this all makes for very interesting reading.... but were getting slightly of the mark.... all i was interested in knowing was i going to loose accuracy by choping my barrel on my 10/22T....

i did not want to know if i was going to jail.... nor was i wondering about shortening a rifle like the cz452..... which by the way is a super,and accurate rifle for people living in the real world...that just want to get out and about and enjoy the outdoors......(and doesn't deserved to be bashed here on this thread)

tomcat.... as for shortening from the action end of the barrel.... it does make sense as you explain it.... but as you know cost is a factor in my shooting.... so that option although might be ideal.....wouldn't be happening to a rifle that i own unless i win the lotto.... so my question to you is..... on a 10/22t .920 barrel would i loose much accuracy taking a bit of the front as oppossed to the rear...

did i read some where else that the O/L of the moderator could be taken into account of the O/L of barrel.... and if so would the link below be acceptable...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibtWd0W3dM0

:D:D

andyone

tomcat220t wrote: »

https://www.volquartsen.com/products/541-stainless-muzzleweighted-barrel


This company is at the forefront of the worlds most accurate 10/22 rifles !
They see the importance of choked .22lr barrels!

just checked your link....."AND HERE LIES THE CASE FOR THE DEFENCE YOUR HONOUR"

but sadly a volquartsen barrel is above my pay grade so my last question still stands

Sparks

andyone wrote: »

i did not want to know if i was going to jail....

I think you might find you'd change your opinion on that if you ran into trouble!

tomcat220t wrote: »

This company is at the forefront of the worlds most accurate 10/22 rifles !

That's going to be deeply relevant when you see 10/22 rifles winning benchrest matches and the Olympics. Until then though, I'd look more to Lilja and Shilen.

jingojonson

Hi Andyone

as usual you got a load of advice you didn't ask for.

Did a lot of research on this Q - go with 16.5 inches - its pretty much optimal on a number of fronts.

End of...

clivej

Any post from the many forums I read have said that there was not any difference in group size when they had their barrel shortened. And that includes the CZ .22 rifles.

Andy if I were you I'd go ahead and get your 10/22 shortened to whatever length you want. I would recommend 16 1/2". I realy doubt that Ruger have 'Choked' any of their barrels.

Sparks

jingojonson wrote: »

Hi Andyone
as usual you got a load of advice you didn't ask for.

Yeah, that's the stuff that keeps you out of the trouble you didn't foresee.
Most people think that's a useful thing

Did a lot of research on this Q - go with 16.5 inches - its pretty much optimal on a number of fronts.

Except the legal front. 40-odd cm and you're potentially the test case for the grey area in 12A instead of having fun with gallery rifle.

So your advice would drop someone into a situation where they're at risk of losing tens of thousands of euro, having a criminal conviction on their permanent record, probably have serious problems ever getting a licence for a firearm ever again, and setting a precedent in court that would, overnight and without much warning (because we have no mechanism to contact every licenced firearm owner in the country) put quite a lot of other people in a position of being unwittingly in possession of unlicenced firearms.

Not being a smartarse about it, but that's not advice I'd give anyone.

andyone

Sparks wrote: »

I think you might find you'd change your opinion on that if you ran into trouble!

That's going to be deeply relevant when you see 10/22 rifles winning benchrest matches and the Olympics. Until then though, I'd look more to Lilja and Shilen.

omg.... talk about going of topic..... if it was any one else... you guys would put in a stern warning........

like most things in this country... one rule for some and another rule for others...

MY ORIGINAL QUESTIONS WERE

"i will be collecting my new 10/22 target shortly.... and was considering shortening the barrel.... as is it 20".. i would like to shorten it as much as possible with out loosing any accuracy..... anyone i've talked to say's take it back to 16.5"... and i know that this would increase velocity.... but i'm wondering about accuracy....????

as ye know the factory .920" barrel has a 1:16" twist and i'll only ever be shooting subs thru it....

if it was shortened more would the subsonic rounds leave the barrel supersonic... as the remainder of the barrel which would normally slow the bullet down, would be gone...????

has any one shortened theirs to 12.5".... how did this effect performance????"

ITS A SIMPLE ENOUGH QUESTION:mad::mad::mad:

Sparks

andyone wrote: »

omg.... talk about going of topic.

No, talk about the forum charter, specifically Rule 8

MY ORIGINAL QUESTIONS WERE

...asking if you should break the law.
The answer is no, you should not. Especially when you've announced your intention to do so in public, in front of the DoJ and AGS.

ITS A SIMPLE ENOUGH QUESTION:mad::mad::mad:

Indeed. You just don't seem to know what the question is actually asking.
Seriously, do you think nobody in Ireland has gotten unwelcome mail in the door from the PTB pointing out that saying on the internet, in public, that you have broken the law, is going to result in a prosecution?

andyone

Sparks wrote: »

Seriously, do you think nobody in Ireland has gotten unwelcome mail in the door from the PTB pointing out that saying on the internet, in public, that you have broken the law, is going to result in a prosecution?

i haven't broken the law....

i just asked a question.....

and its a well known fact that anything put up here is well monitored.....
EVEN PM's:eek::eek::eek:

Sparks

andyone wrote: »

i haven't broken the law....

No, you're just asking if you should.

and its a well known fact that anything put up here is well monitored.....
EVEN PM's:eek::eek::eek:

PMs here aren't monitored.

ormondprop

I know a guy who cut his cz back to 14" and has a sak on it and its a great bunny rifle, personally i'd go for 16 as i looked up a lot of articles and it seemed to be the optimum length, with regard to subs goin supersonic i dont think it will happen as you see guys using subs in pistols and they are still quiet

andyone

thanks Ormo......


that was the kinda input I was looking for.... even it was the wrong rifle....but you cant beat the CZ..... for an accessable .22lr rifle..... pound for pound its the best money you could ever spend in the .22 market..

andyone

No, talk about the forum charter, specifically Rule 8...


point takin.....:o:o:o


i'll leave the rest of this discussion to you guys...

ormondprop

I remember finding a site before where the experimented by chopping back the barrel inch by inch and gave group sizes, speed and the deviation in average speed but can't find it now, but what i did find was a similar experiment on the .17 hmr which might interest a few guys here,
http://www.varmintal.com/17hmr.htm
19" was the fastest but 18" gave more consistant speeds, but there is feck all diff in speed between 18" and 22" and a 16" barrel is 46 fps slower than 19" so i'd think twice about buying a 16" cz hmr,

So if a hmr needs 19" to burn all the powder surely a .22 firing subs would easily burn it all in 14-16"

Sparks

Mod Note: All the stuff on how to shorten the barrel and tapered bores and chokes moved to this thread to let it run.

clivej

Sparks wrote: »

Mod Note: All the stuff on how to shorten the barrel and tapered bores and chokes moved to this thread to let it run.

Yippee

Sparks

clivej wrote: »

Yippee

Well, sometimes tangents become as interesting as the main line (and actually, as tangents go, that's one of the better ones we've had in a while - it's nice to have threads about actual shooting stuff every so often :pac: )

andyone

Sparks wrote: »

Well, sometimes tangents become as interesting as the main line (and actually, as tangents go, that's one of the better ones we've had in a while - it's nice to have threads about actual shooting stuff every so often :pac: )

as you said it made for interesting reading and i for one learned plenty from it.....

ie not to shorten my barrel for two reasons.....
1. because i don't want to loose accuracy(i have a better chance at beating clivej in gallery, cause i'll be bringing the full package..lol)
2.not wanting to loose my licence, end up in court... and possibly jail...( and i'm allergic to KY)

clivej

andyone wrote: »

as you said it made for interesting reading and i for one learned plenty from it.....

ie not to shorten my barrel for two reasons.....
1. because i don't want to loose accuracy(i have a better chance at beating clivej in gallery, cause i'll be bringing the full package..lol)
2.not wanting to loose my licence, end up in court... and possibly jail...( and i'm allergic to KY)

so glad i'm a "rocker";);)

Andy

Bring it on.

Plenty of lads shooting gallery rifle with 'out of the box' standard Ruger 10/22's. And getting high scores with them. :eek:

andyone

clivej wrote: »

Andy

Bring it on.

give me a little while to get aquainted with the rifle and the disipline.....:cool::cool:

looking forward to a bit of crack....

Grizzly 45

andyone wrote: »

if it was shortened more would the subsonic rounds leave the barrel supersonic... as the remainder of the barrel which would normally slow the bullet down, would be gone...????

To give you a straight answer on this point...NO!
Subsonic ammo stays subsonic no matter what your barrel length is.Its to do with the powder load ,which is loaded to keep the bullet below the speed of sound.All a shorter barrel will do is give you is a more spectacular muzzle flash,a loud[er] gun ,proably reduced bullet velocity,and a lot more gunk to clean up in unburnt powder.[Have a look at any of the AR15 pistol conversions on youtube for this].
Shortned beyond a certain point it also might cause the gun to start hiccuping especially if you use subs,as the Ruger requires blowback pressure to cycle the action.Subsonic in .22lr is already finicky with certain guns,and unless it develops optimum pressure to cycle from burning the powder in a certain barrel length ,it might just give you stove pipes all the time.Then you have to get lighter springs made to make sure it cycles 100% with a certain brand of ammo...Alot of work if you want to tinker around and not shoot much.:( Thats all academic of course if you are using a bolt action or other manual loader.

Your job shoud be to find the optimum "short legal" length barrel that gives you optimum accruacy and reliability. Even if it were under the legal length,you "COULD"[and I'll qualify this advice here with CEVAT EMPTOR] still do it.But you[in this case a gunsmith might be a wise choice] must then attach permantly a muzzle break,a flash hider or somthing of the like to bring it back to legal length!! [By permantly that means brazed or welded.]
TBH the muzzle break is just a tube and doesnt affect the accruacy,just the looks of the gun,as all it does is catch flash and recoil,but might keep you out of bother.This was done with a couple of shotguns that were 20 in barrel affairs and had long choke tubes welded onto them to bring them to 24ins for sale here and in the UK a few years back.

has any one shortened theirs to 12.5".... how did this effect performance????"

Only ever seen ONE here and it was a gunsmiths toy with a lovely old wood /metal Ramline folding stock, high cap mags and a 12 in silencer.
Which all fitted nicely into a laptop bag!Only reason he made it was as a toy,[just because he could:D]and a test bed for the homemade can.
It shot quiet and very well.But then it was set up for a specific job, to be quiet not a match target rifle,but good enough for bunnies and quiet plinking.:cool: