Steep climb techniques

Dermot Illogical

Hi All,

I'm looking for some specific tips in an attempt to overcome an embarrassing weakness. I've been trying to add climbing to my training where possible, but it's not happening as often as it should. Still, I've been improving going upwards. In general I'm quite speedy on long drags. For example I found the Shay Elliot very doable last weekend and could keep going for a long time on a gradient like that. Likewise the Sally and Wicklow gaps. No bother on those things at all. On the other hand, The Wall is too steep for me. I can't climb a gradient like that at all without coming to a halt at some stage. I feel I'm going so slow I'll keel over, so I unclip in a panic and end up stopping. The same thing happened on the Giant's Causeway last year. I'm signed up to do the Tour De Burren and ideally I'd like to go over the steeper climbs while staying on the bike. I'm not overly concerned about speed, just getting over. Any "steep hill"-specific tips?

TIA.

Inquitus

RT66 wrote: »

Hi All,

I'm looking for some specific tips in an attempt to overcome an embarrassing weakness. I've been trying to add climbing to my training where possible, but it's not happening as often as it should. Still, I've been improving going upwards. In general I'm quite speedy on long drags. For example I found the Shay Elliot very doable last weekend and could keep going for a long time on a gradient like that. Likewise the Sally and Wicklow gaps. No bother on those things at all. On the other hand, The Wall is too steep for me. I can't climb a gradient like that at all without coming to a halt at some stage. I feel I'm going so slow I'll keel over, so I unclip in a panic and end up stopping. The same thing happened on the Giant's Causeway last year. I'm signed up to do the Tour De Burren and ideally I'd like to go over the steeper climbs while staying on the bike. I'm not overly concerned about speed, just getting over. Any "steep hill"-specific tips?

TIA.

Lowest gear, out of the saddle, keep the legs turning. I had a Compact with 28 on the back when I did the wall last year, maybe you didn't have a low enough gear?

Dermot Illogical

Inquitus wrote: »

Lowest gear, out of the saddle, keep the legs turning. I had a Compact with 28 on the back when I did the wall last year, maybe you didn't have a low enough gear?

I was on a triple!!
Started in the saddle, which is where I normally stay on lesser climbs, but stood up and rapidly faded once I did.

backinexile

Sorry for being a noob in here but what is this "Wall" you are talking about.

Jawgap

Get a 12-32 cassette

sit and spin I think is accepted wisdom - that and weight loss and training.

Jawgap

backinexile wrote: »

Sorry for being a noob in here but what is this "Wall" you are talking about.

Dermot Illogical

backinexile wrote: »

Sorry for being a noob in here but what is this "Wall" you are talking about.

It's in Wicklow. Ballinagee I think is the name of the place. Sounds nicer than it is.

backinexile

It's in Wicklow. Ballinagee I think is the name of the place. Sounds nicer than it is.

Cheers, have done it, didn't know it was called that

Jawgap thats excellent.

Looks easy :cool:

smacl

RT66 wrote: »

I was on a triple!!
Started in the saddle, which is where I normally stay on lesser climbs, but stood up and rapidly faded once I did.

My road bike is a triple 53/42/30 front, was 11/23 back and the lowest gear wasn't as low as you might think. Certainly not as low as I wanted, so I swapped the back for 13/28 which give me all the gears I need. FWIW, I'd also tend to suffer on the very steep gradients, particularly without some nice low gears that let me stay in the saddle. I'm just under 80k now, and I reckon dropping about 5k or so would also help a lot. What weight are you?

Dermot Illogical

smacl wrote: »

My road bike is a triple 53/42/30 front, was 11/23 back and the lowest gear wasn't as low as you might think. Certainly not as low as I wanted, so I swapped the back for 13/28 which give me all the gears I need. FWIW, I'd also tend to suffer on the very steep gradients, particularly without some nice low gears that let me stay in the saddle. I'm just under 80k now, and I reckon dropping about 5k or so would also help a lot. What weight are you?

I could stand to lose some weight alright. I'm 6ft, hovering around 87kg. I'm the big lump in a boards jersey you nodded at while signing on for the Orwell Randonee
The weight is coming down, albeit gradually, but will go count rear cogs in the interim. Not sure what cogs are on there at he moment. Thanks!

Inquitus

smacl wrote: »

My road bike is a triple 53/42/30 front, was 11/23 back and the lowest gear wasn't as low as you might think. Certainly not as low as I wanted, so I swapped the back for 13/28 which give me all the gears I need. FWIW, I'd also tend to suffer on the very steep gradients, particularly without some nice low gears that let me stay in the saddle. I'm just under 80k now, and I reckon dropping about 5k or so would also help a lot. What weight are you?

A triple with 30/23 gives a gain ratio of 2.5, a Compact with 33/28 gives a gain ratio of 2.3

http://sheldonbrown.com/gears/

So as smacl says just because you have a triple doesn't mean someone on a Compact doesnt have a more forgiving granny ring!

Morrisseeee

Do you think it's leg power or is your heart going mental or is breathing an issue ? I would have thought that a triple would be enough in terms of gearing on any sharp climb. Are you attacking the climb too severely at the start and have nothing left for the finale ?

/otherwise, insert 'HTFU picture' :pac:

Dermot Illogical

Morrisseeee wrote: »

Do you think it's leg power or is your heart going mental or is breathing an issue ? I would have thought that a triple would be enough in terms of gearing on any sharp climb. Are you attacking the climb too severely at the start and have nothing left for the finale ?

/otherwise, insert 'HTFU picture' :pac:

Heart rate seems to be ok, although breathing does become quite heavy (as an ex-smoker I expect this during any sort of exertion). I think it's more the legs than anything else though. I possibly am going too hard at the start and running out of steam. I think better technique might help. I generally have enough power in most scenarios, but on steep climbs I'm probably applying it incorrectly.
No doubt a bit of HTFU wouldn't go amiss either. I do tend to bottle it when I think I'm going so slow that I'll lose balance.

Morrisseeee

RT66 wrote: »

I do tend to bottle it when I think I'm going so slow that I'll lose balance.

Yep, steep gradients will do that to you, just practice practice practice, and maybe trust your leg strength to get you over it. Never attack at the start (unless you are super confident), let the hill come to you, and be prepared, ie. mentally & of course in the proper gear (---> Assos:p)

kuro_man

Jeez, I can't run a 4 minute mile either. :eek:

I think very few people went up The Wall on saturday comfortably, a lot walked, some fell, most huffed and puffed and zig-zagged until they got to the top. It never gets easy, only (slighty) faster.

For what its worth, you could try high impact interval training on a turbo at high resistance.

smacl

kuro_man wrote: »

For what its worth, you could try high impact interval training on a turbo at high resistance.

Repeats on Kilmashogue or the wall itself might work either, as you'll still have the worry factor as well as the physical effort. For me, a lot of it is about keeping my breathing regular and heart rate under control, though I also still regularly put my feet down one or twice on these types of climbs. If I'm nervous of the climb, that adds to the heart rate, and can easily push something that is marginally doable outside of my reach. Outside of the physical benefit, I find repeating the thing can remove the worry factor. YMMV.

seamus

kuro_man wrote: »

I think very few people went up The Wall on saturday comfortably, a lot walked, some fell, most huffed and puffed and zig-zagged until they got to the top. It never gets easy, only (slighty) faster.

Without blowing my own horn I actually found the wall relatively easy on Saturday. However, I'm attributing that to the fact that I got stuck behind a car for the first 50m (seriously), and then for most of the rest of the climb I was stuck behind people zig-zagging up, so I didn't push it as hard as I could. My speed on that segment was way behind most other people, which confirms that I went up it slowly.
The guy behind me even shouted, "For fncks sake lads, push on there, willya!"

I also expected it to be longer, so maybe that helped make it seem easier.

I'll give it a go on another day I'm on my own.

RT66, I find that if I need to stand up on a hill, I'm probably goosed. Sometimes on a long drag I may stand up to strech my legs, but on tough gradients like the wall, standing up slows me down and uses more energy in the process, which makes getting back in the saddle harder.
My ass stays in the saddle all the way from bottom to top, I've yet to meet a climb I can't complete this way.

One thing which may be useful to remember is that as the gradient increases, just focus on maintaining your effort, not your speed. Who cares that you're only moving at 9km/h so long as you're still moving.

Lumen

There's nothing magical about going uphill. You just need appropriate gearing for your weight and fitness and a bit of a sense of pacing.

Given that a pro might weigh 70kg, put out 420W easily and ride a 39/23, it's hardly surprising when an ordinary mortal with 90kg, 270W and a 30/25 struggles on the same gradient - that's 50% of the power/weight with 70% of the gear ratio.

The other factor is that a rider going twice the speed only has to climb for half as much time!

Cork24

I dont like Standing will climbing,

I find a spinning bike a good choice for working up a sweat!

What i do on a spinning bike the days i dont feel like going out. head over to the gym and jump on the bike,

I spend 2 mins warming up then turn the brakes up to about 70% take one foot out of the paddle and paddle with one leg for about 1 min, change legs and then turn the brake all the way down losing out the legs and do it again do this about 6 times over the course of 30 mins on the spinning bike,

kenmc

what are you doing with the rest of your body when you're climbing? I.e where is your hand placement, are you death-gripping or resting on the bars, are your shoulders going up and dowin with your pedals?
I find I climb best (I'm not a climber by any means, but discovered that the sooner I get up a climb the sooner I can descend at speed, which I LOVE doing!) when I have a very narrow grip, i.e. just either side of the stem. I don't wrap my thumbs around the bottom of the bars, rather I place them up on top. By this I mean I don't make a full fist with the bar in the middle if you know what I mean. I find it helps me not to deathgrip the bars, and that makes me relax a bit more and waste less energy squeezing the bars for no benefit.
YMMV though, each to their own etc.

Raam

I find that generally people with lots of power climb best. Then of those with a lot of power, the lighter ones go best. That's about it really.

kenmc

Raam wrote: »

I find that generally people with lots of power climb best. Then of those with a lot of power, the lighter ones go best. That's about it really.

Boaster

smacl

Raam wrote: »

I find that generally people with lots of power climb best. Then of those with a lot of power, the lighter ones go best. That's about it really.

So heavy and weak is a bad combo then. Bummer!

lennymc

i generally do ass back, head up, hands on top of the bars about shoulder width, concentrate on emptying my lungs and breathing steady in a gear i can push without killing myself. im 87 kg or so, and by no means a climber, but can get up steep hills. i went up the wall in about 4.30 (compared with 2.18 or something for KOM) but i made it up steadily with 34/28 gearing. as others have said YMMV

ROK ON

I am slow on lots of climbs, long and shallow, short and steep, long and steep, short and shallow.

In fact, I cant think of any climb at all where I dont suck.

I have come to the conclusion that some of it is down to that simple fact that I am fat - but other fat people that I know and have cycled with are significantly faster than I am. So, that leaves me to conclude that for my weight I have an abysmally poor power output.

I found the wall actually ok last week. It is short enough that I can simply force my 34/28 around. In fact a guy in front of my came to a juddering halt and then keeled over in a clatter. That woke me up a bit and kept me entertained enough to keep going.

The key is to simply refuse to get off until the bike is actually falling over.
There are only three climbs that I have never managed to get up without having to come off
(Priests Leap in the Cork/Kerry mtns, St Patricks Hill in Cork and the Forest Road climb out of Glengariff.) In all cases I came off when I simply couldnt keep the bike upright and breathe any longer. The stretches of road were all about 30% in gradient terms where this occurred. I think fat weak people run out of gears faster than thin powerful people. For some gradients, the range of gears required by fat weak people are simply unrealistic to put on a bike. So HTFU and lose weight and get stronger.

Inquitus

ROK ON wrote: »

So HTFU and lose weight and get stronger.

Case closed, next.

smacl

ROK ON wrote: »

For some gradients, the range of gears required by fat weak people are simply unrealistic to put on a bike.

Surprising the gears you find on some bikes. I did the spin from Glengariff up to Barley lake a couple of years ago on a crappy old MTB. 26" wheels, 22t front, 32t rear, spinning like bejaysus to get 7kph. Not elegant I'll admit, but if you've the patience you'd get over all sorts of hills on it. Horses for courses.

Dubba

As Morrisseeee said its all down to practice with hills. If you don't do hills on your spins regularly it going to be that much tougher when you do, at least that's what I've found.

Also I'm a pretty crap climber too but one bit of advice I've heard that helps is changing your position, i.e in / out of the saddle, more forwards / backwards on the saddle and even pulling the on the pedals. This helps by using different muscles in the legs and hopefully prevent fatiguing the quads for example.
I wouldn't like to stay seated for a very steep climb, cant imagine it being good for the knees.

Kevin dublin

Sorry to butt in but looking for some advice on this setup:

Chainrings: 50/34
Rear: 12/28 10-speed

I'm 6'3" and and a heavy build (big boned:rolleyes:)

I can just about make it up some steep hills but would like my legs spinning a bit more, I know loosing weight & getting fitter will help but in the meantime I still have to face the 'hills':D


Thanks

Kevin

brasshead

So, is the infamous "wall" on the Wicklow 200 route? And for those familiar with NC Dublin/Meath, how does it compare with Bellewstown approach from the river?

Morrisseeee

This is it: Ballinagee Hill
600m @ 12.2% (73m gained)

daragh_

brasshead wrote: »

So, is the infamous "wall" on the Wicklow 200 route? And for those familiar with NC Dublin/Meath, how does it compare with Bellewstown approach from the river?

It's not on the W200 route. It passes by it though if you fancy a quick detour.

funnights74

Ya i agree with a few previous posts, grip close to the stem and concentrate on a regular breathing pattern, i also spin away at the bottom of a climb as i find it leaves you with enough later on to get you over the top.
I suppose i'm lucky in that i'm close enough to 72 Kg so being on the lightish side does help but decent technique does no harm either.

on_the_nickel

Morrisseeee wrote: »

This is it: Ballinagee Hill
600m @ 12.2% (73m gained)

You call that a wall? This is a wall

(Everything's bigger/better in the real Capital blah blah)

ROK ON

on_the_nickel wrote: »

You call that a wall? This is a wall

(Everything's bigger/better in the real Capital blah blah)

Thats not a wall. This is a wall:
http://app.strava.com/segments/935296

lennymc

brasshead wrote: »

So, is the infamous "wall" on the Wicklow 200 route? And for those familiar with NC Dublin/Meath, how does it compare with Bellewstown approach from the river?

Its different to bellewstown. Longer and more consistent gradient. Bellewstown is abou 900 metres at 8.8 iirc, the wall is 2.5 at 12%. The wall is doable tho.steady, good gear nf steady cadence and breathing. Bellewstown ramps up to 25%, not.l sure what.wall goes to.

brasshead

lennymc wrote: »

brasshead wrote: »

So, is the infamous "wall" on the Wicklow 200 route? And for those familiar with NC Dublin/Meath, how does it compare with Bellewstown approach from the river?

Its different to bellewstown. Longer and more consistent gradient. Bellewstown is abou 900 metres at 8.8 iirc, the wall is 2.5 at 12%. The wall is doable tho.steady, good gear nf steady cadence and breathing. Bellewstown ramps up to 25%, not.l sure what.wall goes to.

Thanks. Looks like one for the next outing to Wicklow.

seve65

i guess this is it ? http://app.strava.com/segments/648338

my suggestion would be if you are really struggling then go very slow at the start and keep a nice rhythm going. Any hard aerobic drills will help to improve on that.

seve65

i will learn to read earlier posts...

anyway, this is a proper wall http://app.strava.com/segments/1005887

Inquitus

I think Cav has the same issue RT66, only he doesn't know when to unclip!

http://twitpic.com/9jux8d

ROK ON wrote: »

So HTFU and lose weight and get stronger.

Perhaps he needs you on his coaching team....

kenmc

Inquitus wrote: »

I think Cav has the same issue RT66, only he doesn't know when to unclip!
http://twitpic.com/9jux8d

SAVAGE! One of my fav pics of him ever!

awec

I haven't done any really long steep climbs, but when I am climbing I do find myself talking to myself, swearing at myself a lot and generally questioning what the hell I'm doing cycling up this fecking hill.

kincsem

I think I know that Ballinagee Hill. I've looked up it many times as I passed on the main road and was never tempted.

Morrisseeee

on_the_nickel wrote: »

You call that a wall? This is a wall

(Everything's bigger/better in the real Capital blah blah)

Well actually I didn't call it a 'Wall', I was meerly pointing out the climb on Strava, but yes, Temple Hill is indeed a 'wall', I know, I did it last Saturday, ouch !

Now, the Q is, what is a 'Wall', ie. does it have to be a certain length, if it goes beyond say 1km, is it then a 'climb' etc ?!

But of course you're all wrong............this is 'The Wall' :eek:;):cool:
Bothar na gCloch, 200m @ 24% (48m gained).

Having said that, there are quite a few very steep sections around the country that mimic it, I know of a fair few at 300m to 500m @ 15 to 20%, and some mightn't even be recorded on Strava.