Fairness.

Turtwig

Hi guys,

First off let me just let everyone reading this know I'm not a Christian but as most of the regulars here know I'm quite curious about certain things every now and again.

How do believers here interpret the idea of effort and reward. Do you believe that if someone actively puts in a lot of effort towards something then they should be rewarded with some measure of success or do you think that not every effort will merit a reward? In other words do you expect that someone in a not so well off or successful position is there because they didn't do everything possible to be elsewhere or do you think they're there because that just the way things is and sometimes doing the right thing doesn't always merit a reward of any sort? I guess what I'm really asking is the world created by God a just and fair one? Or is it anticipated that not everyone will be given a fair share of the pie.

Does the bible say anything on this?

I also would like to apologise if I'm posting this in the wrong forum, but I'm looking for the Christian viewpoint so this place felt the most prudent. But for all I know the question might be independent of Christian theology. If it is, then that is something I'd like to find out.

Thanks very much,

HamletOrHecuba

Jernal wrote: »

I guess what I'm really asking is the world created by God a just and fair one? Or is it anticipated that not everyone will be given a fair share of the pie.

The Bible says that the whole world lies in the power of satan so obviously its not just or fair.

doctoremma

HamletOrHecuba wrote: »

The Bible says that the whole world lies in the power of satan so obviously its not just or fair.

Does Satan punish good people?

PDN

doctoremma wrote: »

Does Satan punish good people?

He would torment or hurt them. I don't know that 'punish' would be the correct word since Satan does not follow any recognisable moral code.

So perhaps your question is akin to asking whether a burglar punishes good people by breaking into their houses.

Manach

I could mention the book of Job in the bible - instead I'll choose a quote from Babylon 5
"You know, I used to think it was awful that life was so unfair. Then I thought, wouldn't it be much worse if life were fair, and all the terrible things that happen to us come because we actually deserve them? So, now I take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe."

smithcity

Jernal wrote: »

How do believers here interpret the idea of effort and reward. Do you believe that if someone actively puts in a lot of effort towards something then they should be rewarded with some measure of success or do you think that not every effort will merit a reward?

Jernal wrote: »

In other words do you expect that someone in a not so well off or successful position is there because they didn't do everything possible to be elsewhere or do you think they're there because that just the way things is and sometimes doing the right thing doesn't always merit a reward of any sort?

From the memories of my christian days, my understanding of the church's attitude in this regard was that fairness, particularly in regard to the idea of effort and reward, was that people didn't necessarily get their just deserts in this life, but rather would receive them in the next.

Specifically in regard to your question about people in well off positions etc, my understanding of the christian ethos is that it's not really geared towards effort leading to "better off" positions in a material way, but towards being "better off" in a spiritual way. Im thinking specifically of Mark 10:25 "It is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye than for a rich man to enter into the Kingdom of God" and Matthew 5:5 "Blessed are the meek for the meek shall inherit the earth". To me, these verses suggest that efforts aimed at material gain are inherently immoral and that efforts should be aimed at spiritual attainment.

I always thought of christianity's attitude towards fairness as being a platitude that suggests, "things may not be right in this world, but they will in the next".

prinz

Jernal wrote: »

Do you believe that if someone actively puts in a lot of effort towards something then they should be rewarded with some measure of success or do you think that not every effort will merit a reward?

That depends. Some thieves put an awful lot of effort and work into a heist... should that be rewarded? No. Is effort and hard work in a noble pursuit always rewarded? No.

Jernal wrote: »

In other words do you expect that someone in a not so well off or successful position is there because they didn't do everything possible to be elsewhere...

That undoubtedly applies to some people, and it also certainly doesn't apply to others.

Jernal wrote: »

..or do you think they're there because that just the way things is and sometimes doing the right thing doesn't always merit a reward of any sort?

Bad things happen to good people. Good things happen to bad people. The world isn't fair, mainly because people aren't fair to each other.

Jernal wrote: »

I guess what I'm really asking is the world created by God a just and fair one? Or is it anticipated that not everyone will be given a fair share of the pie.

God created a world that could be just and fair*. So far humanity hasn't really seen fit to go for it because humans aren't perfect.

*in so far as is practical.

Turtwig

Manach wrote: »

I could mention the book of Job in the bible - instead I'll choose a quote from Babylon 5
"You know, I used to think it was awful that life was so unfair. Then I thought, wouldn't it be much worse if life were fair, and all the terrible things that happen to us come because we actually deserve them? So, now I take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe."

Added to quote bank.

doctoremma

PDN wrote: »

He would torment or hurt them. I don't know that 'punish' would be the correct word since Satan does not follow any recognisable moral code.

Fair enough. It was the first word that came to me but I won't cling to it!

PDN wrote: »

So perhaps your question is akin to asking whether a burglar punishes good people by breaking into their houses.

Ok, so if something bad happens to a religious person (a one off incident or simple unfortunate position in life), what are the options here (assuming they attribute their state to a higher power)?

1. God has punished them (assuming their god doesn't indulge in needless tormenting or hurting?).
2. God has turned a blind eye while Satan hurt them.

(Are 1 and 2 distinguishable in any way? Both are god being either active or passive to cause/allow the same event)

3. Satan has independently tormented/hurt them and God couldn't stop it (I suspect few believe that Satan is more powerful than God?).

Another option I haven't thought of (highly likely as I don't ponder such things regularly)?

ETA: Jernal, apologies if I am hijacking your thread.

prinz

Jernal wrote: »

Does the bible say anything on this?

You could argue that the entire New Testament is based on this. There are the wealthy, the poor, the healthy, the sick, the social bigwigs, the outcasts, the greedy, the generous, loyalty, betrayal, corruption and integrity and honesty... etc etc.

Then you have the beatitudes/sermon on the mount vs the sermon on the plain which indicates that true 'fairness' will only exist in the kingdom of God after the judgement day.

prinz

doctoremma wrote: »

Ok, so if something bad happens to a religious person (a one off incident or simple unfortunate position in life), what are the options here (assuming they attribute their state to a higher power)?
1. God has punished them (assuming their god doesn't indulge in needless tormenting or hurting?).
2. God has turned a blind eye while Satan hurt them.
(Are 1 and 2 distinguishable in any way? Both are god being either active or passive to cause/allow the same event)
3. Satan has independently tormented/hurt them and God couldn't stop it (I suspect few believe that Satan is more powerful than God?)..

All sounds very Greek to me. I could use Shakespeare or ABBA for this one..

Shakespeare: "Like flies to wanton boys are we to the gods, they kill us for their sport"

ABBA: "The gods play rum with dice, their hearts as cold as ice, and someone way down here, loses someone dear"

That seems to be the angle of your options, i.e. we are but puppets on a string. I don't think it's applicable to most Christians.

homer911

I think this is treading on the borders of prosperity theology
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosperity_theology) Very big in the States, but not something most Christians would subscribe to

Doc Farrell

Jernal wrote: »

Hi guys,

First off let me just let everyone reading this know I'm not a Christian but as most of the regulars here know I'm quite curious about certain things every now and again.

How do believers here interpret the idea of effort and reward. Do you believe that if someone actively puts in a lot of effort towards something then they should be rewarded with some measure of success or do you think that not every effort will merit a reward? In other words do you expect that someone in a not so well off or successful position is there because they didn't do everything possible to be elsewhere or do you think they're there because that just the way things is and sometimes doing the right thing doesn't always merit a reward of any sort? I guess what I'm really asking is the world created by God a just and fair one? Or is it anticipated that not everyone will be given a fair share of the pie.

Does the bible say anything on this?

I also would like to apologise if I'm posting this in the wrong forum, but I'm looking for the Christian viewpoint so this place felt the most prudent. But for all I know the question might be independent of Christian theology. If it is, then that is something I'd like to find out.

Thanks very much,

I'm sure you know mothers who do everything that they can for their children and are rewarded with nothing but pain, suffering, indifference and mockery. Or the parent who sacrifices everything for their child only to see them killed by cancer or in a pub brawl?
No, this world can be very unfair.
Here is a link to a lay Anglican Dominican brother who writes beautifully on the Christian perspective on suffering and pain. His articles are quite short.
http://dominicanes.me/

Also, a priest whose sister is a quadriplegic wrote a short book called 'where the hell is God?'. His name is Richard Leonard. He discusses how the unfairness of life isn't the result of a spiteful supernatural entity!
Quite often we are rewarded financially for our efforts but ultimately we have to ask ourselves if a life dedicated to acquiring capital will bring any peace of mind, any love of life and the world we live in. As useful as financial security is, ultimately we have to reach out to others if we are to know any happiness. Even a committed atheist would agree with this. If we don't reach out and share our lives then we will know true misery, what the Buddhists call an hungry ghost, like the old banker in 'it's a wonderful life'.

PDN

doctoremma wrote: »

Fair enough. It was the first word that came to me but I won't cling to it!



Ok, so if something bad happens to a religious person (a one off incident or simple unfortunate position in life), what are the options here (assuming they attribute their state to a higher power)?

1. God has punished them (assuming their god doesn't indulge in needless tormenting or hurting?).
2. God has turned a blind eye while Satan hurt them.

(Are 1 and 2 distinguishable in any way? Both are god being either active or passive to cause/allow the same event)

3. Satan has independently tormented/hurt them and God couldn't stop it (I suspect few believe that Satan is more powerful than God?).

Another option I haven't thought of (highly likely as I don't ponder such things regularly)?

Christians believe that we live in a fallen world. Bad stuff happens. I don't think anyone promised us that life would be fair.

Personally I think life is very unfair. Sometimes I stop and look at what I've been blessed with in my life, and I think to myself, "I really don't deserve any of this." If I got what I deserved then I would be in big trouble.

And, of course, the Gospel is gloriously and extravagantly unfair. We get a salvation that we never deserved.

Keylem

PDN wrote: »

Christians believe that we live in a fallen world. Bad stuff happens. I don't think anyone promised us that life would be fair.

Personally I think life is very unfair. Sometimes I stop and look at what I've been blessed with in my life, and I think to myself, "I really don't deserve any of this." If I got what I deserved then I would be in big trouble.

And, of course, the Gospel is gloriously and extravagantly unfair. We get a salvation that we never deserved.

Good point. It reminds me of a quote by Archbishop Fulton Sheen:

When the humble man is treated badly he does not complain for he knows that he is treated better than he deserves.

junk_seller

Doc Farrell wrote: »

I'm sure you know mothers who do everything that they can for their children and are rewarded with nothing but pain, suffering, indifference and mockery. Or the parent who sacrifices everything for their child only to see them killed by cancer or in a pub brawl?
No, this world can be very unfair.
Here is a link to a lay Anglican Dominican brother who writes beautifully on the Christian perspective on suffering and pain. His articles are quite short.
http://dominicanes.me/

Also, a priest whose sister is a quadriplegic wrote a short book called 'where the hell is God?'. His name is Richard Leonard. He discusses how the unfairness of life isn't the result of a spiteful supernatural entity!
Quite often we are rewarded financially for our efforts but ultimately we have to ask ourselves if a life dedicated to acquiring capital will bring any peace of mind, any love of life and the world we live in. As useful as financial security is, ultimately we have to reach out to others if we are to know any happiness. Even a committed atheist would agree with this. If we don't reach out and share our lives then we will know true misery, what the Buddhists call an hungry ghost, like the old banker in 'it's a wonderful life'.

their are loads of happy wealthy people and miserable poor people

junk_seller

PDN wrote: »

Christians believe that we live in a fallen world. Bad stuff happens. I don't think anyone promised us that life would be fair.

Personally I think life is very unfair. Sometimes I stop and look at what I've been blessed with in my life, and I think to myself, "I really don't deserve any of this." If I got what I deserved then I would be in big trouble.

And, of course, the Gospel is gloriously and extravagantly unfair. We get a salvation that we never deserved.

how wonderfull for you , i see things the same only from the other end , i often look at my life and think to myself , i really dont deserve this

junk_seller

Keylem wrote: »

Good point. It reminds me of a quote by Archbishop Fulton Sheen:

that sounds masochistic rather than humble

Cato Maior

Seneca's essay 'On Providence' is quite good on this score.

JimiTime

junk_seller wrote: »

how wonderfull for you , i see things the same only from the other end , i often look at my life and think to myself , i really dont deserve this

So what system are you appealling to when you say 'Deserve'? What universal measurement?

homer911

junk_seller wrote: »

their are loads of happy wealthy people and miserable poor people

There are loads of miserable rich people (superficially happy) and genuinely happy poor people - it all depends on how you measure wealth and happiness

doctoremma

homer911 wrote: »

There are loads of miserable rich people (superficially happy) and genuinely happy poor people - it all depends on how you measure wealth and happiness

And there are probably more miserable and poor people than any other category.