Fully bled radiators - top of radiator remains cool

Jimbob1977

Hi,

Apologies if this question has been "done to death" before in this forum. I just wanted some advice from the experts before I went to a plumber.

My downstairs radiators work perfectly. When they are bled, the water flows immediately as it should.

For the upstairs radiators, the base is warm and the top is cold. I've removed the bleed valves completely from all the upstairs radiators and no water emerges. They are bone dry and sound "hollow".

I went up to the attic to check the Feed and Expansion tank. It is about 20% full and the ball-cock is bobbing nicely on the surface.

We have an outside Riello oil boiler, but I don't want to mess with it. There is an immersion heater in the utility room.

Clearly, there are pressure issues upstairs. Perhaps it is inadequate pressure or dirty water.

Can anyone suggest a simple fix/solution before I engage a plumber? I hope to solve the problem either way before the next cold spell.

Regards

sullzz

The non return valve on the cold water supply from the f+e tank is probably blocked or stuck preventing the water entering your system or else the isolation valve is closed , this is presuming there is a valve and non return valve , put up a couple of pics of the hotpress showing all valves etc.

Jimbob1977

Hi Sullzz,

The hot press is a bit messy and the piping zig-zags all over the place. I could only find two devices that resembled valves or handles (Pictures 3 and 4)

o The first picture is the type of piping at ceiling level

o The second picture is my cylinder tank

o The third picture is the red handle that cuts off the water to upstairs. I don't know the technical name.

o The fourth picture is the valve at the base of the cylinder tank. It's the only circular valve that I could locate in the hot press

Is this any use? I'm not technically minded:)

heinbloed

Get the principles (and faults) of this system analysed. Get the hydraulic balancing done.

And ask for a written report.

sullzz

heinbloed wrote: »

Get the principles (and faults) of this system analysed. Get the hydraulic balancing done.

And ask for a written report.

That doesn't really help him .

OP if you go to your f+e tank and follow the pipe out of it you should come across an isolation valve somewhere along it and possibly a non return valve , also when your at the f+e tank have a look into it and make sure that the outlet hole is not blocked , your problem is that something has stopped water getting into your system , I would also be concerned about the fact that you have lost so much water out of your system .

Jimbob1977

Thanks Sullzz,

I will venture into the attic tomorrow.

One point I forgot to mention - the water in our area is very hard. Most of our appliances (e.g. kettle and dishwasher) are caked with lime, despite the fact that we use Broxo salt cubes to soften it.

The Feed and Expansion tank water is relatively 99% clear, but there are specks of white "powder" in it. Could lime occur in sufficient quantities to block pipes?

Thanks again

hsan

heinbloed wrote: »

Get the principles (and faults) of this system analysed. Get the hydraulic balancing done.

And ask for a written report.

are you serious?would you listen to yourself,sulzz just gave the op good advice and this is what you are raving about!

JohnnieK

Jimbob1977 wrote: »

Thanks Sullzz,

I will venture into the attic tomorrow.

One point I forgot to mention - the water in our area is very hard. Most of our appliances (e.g. kettle and dishwasher) are caked with lime, despite the fact that we use Broxo salt cubes to soften it.

The Feed and Expansion tank water is relatively 99% clear, but there are specks of white "powder" in it. Could lime occur in sufficient quantities to block pipes?

Thanks again

It can block pipes but only in sever circumstances. It can more easily as sullz said block non-return valves.

fasttalkerchat

I'm having a similar problem. I opened all radiator valves and the return valves and their is a lot of air coming out (a lot of water too). I will have another go at it later.

It could be that you have some air trapped in the radiators and have to let the water flow from them for a 30 seconds to free it.

Jimbob1977

Hi Sullzz,

Excuse my ignorance - but what would a non-return valve or an isolation valve look like? I presume they look like a big handle or a circular tap.

I went up into the attic and prodded at the outlet hole to make sure it was clear. There was no obvious obstruction.

There was a outlet pipe from the expansion tank that ran for about two metres until it disappeared into the attic floor - along with two pipes from the header tank. There were no apparent handles or taps along the floor run - just brass pipes with joins

Would these valves be located in my ground floor immersion room? My wife wants to call a plumber, but I want to give this a proper try I assume I'd have to close these valves or cut off the water to inspect them internally.

JohnnieK

A non return valve is about 100mm long and is a brass cylidrical object fitted on the pipe. Can you take a pic of the pipe set up in the attic. It's possible it is in the hot press.

little swift

i'm no plummer but just a suggestion, have you checked out the pump, water downstairs and no water upstairs sounds like a fawlty pump.

jamespatojr

The pump is not the problem, water in the system is not being replaced by water from the feed and expansion tank.If you have a heating tank(small tank) in your attic on its own then its a blockage or closed valve on feed(follow pipe connection from bottom of small tank to hotpress) if there is expansion vessel in hotpress than it may be semi pressurised system so then you may have issue with non return valve.Would not go ripping or opening fittings unless confident in your own abilities!!! WATER CAN CAUSE ALOT OF DAMAGE!!!

golden lane

it is probably air........if you have an open system................

you may have to blow the air out with the cold water mains ............make sure there is room in your expansion/feed tank......before you connect the mains water.

Jimbob1977

Thanks to everyone!!

There is a valve outside the bigger attic tank (the Header??) that resembles the 100mm cylinder described by a previous poster (it is T-shaped).

However, I expect the Non-Return Valve should run out of the Feed & Expansion tank -and not between the Header Tank and Feed & Expansion Tank.

Pic 1: The header (bigger tank)

Pic 2: The header tank and Feed & Expansion tank together

Pic 3: The Feed & Expansion tank

Pic 4: The Feed & Expansion pipe disappears into the floor. No sign of a valve.

Jimbob1977

Hi again,

Here are some pictures from the hot press. We have a dormer house, so I believe the pipes make their way from the attic to the ground floor through the wall spaces on the first floor.

Pic 1: Pipes emerge from ceiling of hot press. There is something that might be the Non-Return Valve at the left of the photo (T-shaped join)

Pic 2: The valve that cuts off the water to upstairs (vertical pipe) and the horizontal pipe to the cylinder.

Pic 3: The cyclinder with two pipes entering

Pic 4: Pipe entering cyclinder and a vertical pipe join

Pic 5: Two taps beside the cylinder

Pottler

If you have water in the header tank and your circulating pump is working, shut off the valves to all the downstairs rads completely(the valves are each side of the individual rads. This should force the circulating water up to your upstairs rads which you can then bleed. If it does not, you have a feed blockage from your header tank in the attic or somwhere in the feed pipes to the upstairs rads. An easy test-Open a bleed screw on a rad downstairs somwhere you can easily catch the emerging water-use a big basin etc and then nip up to the attic and see if the ballcock is running water into the system. If the water is entering the header to replace the water being lost then the headers fine and your circ pump is caked with lime and needs replacing. If you get my drift! Its either tank, pump or pipes.:) BTW, usual Celtic tiger mish mash flung in plumbing you have there from the look of it!

Jimbob1977

If one of the attic or hot press photos contains the Non-Return Valve, could someone tell me which picture it is, please?

How would I unblock it?

If the job is beyond my expertise, I will accept defeat and hire a plumber. I was wondering how much a plumber would charge to fix my expected problem.

Jimbob1977

Pottler wrote: »

If you have water in the header tank and your circulating pump is working, shut off the valves to all the downstairs rads completely(the valves are each side of the individual rads. QUOTE]

Hi Pottler - do you mean the lock shield valve or the hand-twist valve?

JohnnieK

jimbob
The very last pic of the hot press. It's hidden behind the baton it has an isolation valve before it as it drops down, it right beside the cylinder behind the timber.

Jimbob1977

JohnnieK wrote: »

jimbob
The very last pic of the hot press. It's hidden behind the baton it has an isolation valve before it as it drops down, it right beside the cylinder behind the timber.

Great stuff, JohnnieK! It was extremely well hidden. You'd swear I was running a 'Spot the Ball' competition:D. I didn't even notice it until you pointed it out!!

What action should I take now? Stop the water, detach the valve and inspect for dirt?

JohnnieK

Try making sure the valve above it is open first!!

If so turn it off. You might have to drain some water out of the system first. Be sure you are very comfortable to do this first, it's possible the isolation valve might be passing and when you disconnect you will get a bit of water and you might panic and make things worse.
Make sure the wife is out too if you get water all over the place she will burst you

fasttalkerchat

JohnnieK wrote: »

Make sure the wife is out too if you get water all over the place she will burst you

+1 on that!
I was filling the boiler from the mains water after bleeding the radiators. Thought that I had closed the valve and unscrewed the filling pipe. Water everywhere! It took me a good 30 seconds to get the valve turned off. Its nearly dry after 6 hours :eek:

Jimbob1977

Following the excellent advice that I received on this thread, I took JohnnieK's instructions after he had pinpointed the Non-Return Valve from my photographs.

1) After stopping the water flow at the Isolation Valve, I detached and examined the Non-Return Valve. I found that it was encrusted with chalky material (probably the lime).

2) I cleaned out the Non-Return valve, reattached it to the pipe and restarted the water flow.

3) There was an immediate rumbling from the pipes in the hot press!!

4) I bled the upstairs radiators. The emission of air was intense and you could hear the water surging upwards in the radiators. Eventually, the water emerged from the bleed valve.

Thanks to everyone for their valuable inputs. I learnt a useful lesson in Plumbing 101.

I have a new-found respect for plumbers and their expertise. I don't know how you can make any sense of the metres and metres of pipes that branch off in every direction.

Here's to a warm house this winter!