International summer tours 2012 superthread

thomond2006

Just a thread for all discussion on all the teams, outside of match threads.

All the fixtures are here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_mid-year_rugby_test_series

This is the first year where the 3 match test series return, probably making the idea of a 'series' more meaningful. It also sees the return of widespread mid-week games, with some Super Rugby sides in action.

• Ireland play the Barbarians and then go on tour to New Zealand (3 tests).
• Wales play the Barbarians and then go on tour to Australia (3 tests). They also play the Brumbies in mid-week.
• Scotland play Australia, Waratahs, Cook Islands, Fiji and Samoa in that order. Bit of a mad tour!
• England play the Barbarians and then go on tour to South Africa (3 tests). They also play a 'North' and 'South' Barbarians selection respectively.
• France go to Argentina for 2 tests.
• Italy play Argentina, Canada and United States in that order.

A few tidbits of news, Scotland will be missing David Denton and Lee Jones through injury while Jim Hamilton is suspended. These 3 are all first XV players so that's a blow to Scotland.

Martyn Williams is set to win his 100th cap for Wales as he is expected to get a run out against the Barbarians. He deserves the 100 accolade but I don't agree with the WRU capping players in this game. No doubt they are looking to put bums on seats too.

England have announced their squad:

Forwards: Mouritz Botha (Saracens), Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Alex Corbisiero (London Irish), Paul Doran Jones (Northampton Saints), Phil Dowson (Northampton Saints), Carl Fearns (Bath Rugby), Joe Gray (Harlequins), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), James Haskell (Otago Highlanders), Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs), Graham Kitchener (Leicester Tigers), Joe Launchbury (London Wasps), Joe Marler (Harlequins), Lee Mears (Bath Rugby), Ben Morgan (Scarlets), Matt Mullan (Worcester Warriors), Tom Palmer (Stade Francais), Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers), Chris Robshaw (captain, Harlequins), George Robson (Harlequins), Matt Stevens (Saracens), Thomas Waldrom (Leicester Tigers), Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers).

Backs: Anthony Allen (Leicester Tigers), Chris Ashton (Northampton Saints), Brad Barritt (Saracens), Mike Brown (Harlequins), Danny Care (Harlequins), Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints), Owen Farrell (Saracens), Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers), Ben Foden (Northampton Saints), Alex Goode (Saracens), Charlie Hodgson (Saracens), Jonathan Joseph (London Irish), George Lowe (Harlequins), Ugo Monye (Harlequins), David Strettle (Saracens), Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers), Jordan Turner-Hall (Harlequins), Christian Wade (London Wasps), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers).

Not considered due to injury or suspension: Chris Brooker (knee), Stuart Hooper (arm), Calum Clark (suspended), Tom Croft (neck), Louis Deacon (hamstring), Courtney Lawes (shin), Charlie Sharples (shoulder ), Joe Simpson (shoulder), Henry Thomas (knee), Rob Webber (shoulder), David Wilson (wrist), Tom Wood (toe), Nick Wood (chest).

whysomoody

Why wouldnt you get capped against the barbarians? I'm pretty sure if it was your first appearance, rather than 100, you would be devastated not to get it. its also a their best team.

Tox56

Lack of Steffon Armitage seems to be main source of discontent just from reading BBC.

I think they should invest time in Kvesic, he is (presumably?) going with the U-20's, but he has impressed me every time I've seen him and England want/need a natural 7.

CIARAN_BOYLE

whysomoody wrote: »

Why wouldnt you get capped against the barbarians? I'm pretty sure if it was your first appearance, rather than 100, you would be devastated not to get it. its also a their best team.

No other team gives caps against the Babas, Wales didn't give caps the last time the two met. Also it doesn't tie you to a Union so if it was your first cap you could turn around and say, actually I don't want to play for Wales afterwards.

Digifriendly

Simple question - When were last 3 match series involving individual 'home' countries playing 'down under' as distinct from the British and Irish Lions playing 3 match series? OP talks about return of 3 match series but my impression was that it was usually 2 match series even going back to Ireland's last series win 'down under' in Australia in 1979. Maybe I'm wrong and if I am I will be glad to be corrected.

CatFromHue

Digifriendly wrote: »

Simple question - When were last 3 match series involving individual 'home' countries playing 'down under' as distinct from the British and Irish Lions playing 3 match series? OP talks about return of 3 match series but my impression was that it was usually 2 match series even going back to Ireland's last series win 'down under' in Australia in 1979. Maybe I'm wrong and if I am I will be glad to be corrected.

I think you're right. We've never played a 3 test series down under and i think England haven't either.

irishbucsfan

Hahahaha no Armitage! Jaysus they are missing a big trick there, he's been in absolutely cracking form. Toulon will be delighted to keep him fresh I suppose.

Deano7788

Apparently, there was an issue with Armitage that if Toulon make the final of the Top 14, it's on the day of the 1st South African test.

Also, Kvesic won't even be at the Junior World Cup, he's had to have surgery on his shoulder. Big blow for England.

http://planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,14793_7742624,00.html

Hype710

Martyn Williams deserves his 100 caps but getting it in this manner is something I'm not sure he'd be too proud of. Howley has come out and said he'll be selected for rugby reasons but I think that's absolute rubbish.

danthefan

There's talk on PR from a reliable poster that Croft's career is potentially under threat, has a very serious neck injury.

CatFromHue

danthefan wrote: »

There's talk on PR from a reliable poster that Croft's career is potentially under threat, has a very serious neck injury.

Crikey that's awful. I didn't see what happened to him but from reports it sounded bad, along the lines of he was ambulanced straight to hospital.

danthefan

CatFromHue wrote: »

Crikey that's awful. I didn't see what happened to him but from reports it sounded bad, along the lines of he was ambulanced straight to hospital.

Got his head in the wrong place in a tackle. Was watching the game but missed the incident though, just saw the aftermath with the game stopped for ages, looked very serious.

thomond2006

I was just on Planet Rugby and live text updates for Reds vs Chiefs. Richard Kahui went off injured and PR are reporting a broken collarbone. He would be a loss to New Zealand.

PhatPiggins

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Hahahaha no Armitage! Jaysus they are missing a big trick there, he's been in absolutely cracking form. Toulon will be delighted to keep him fresh I suppose.

I've seen him play 5/6 time for Toulon and he's always been one of the top 5 forwards on the pitch. That said he was generally as good for LI. I don't know what he's done to piss off successive England managers but when you look at the square pegs they've played at 7 the past 6 years it must have been bad !!

thomond2006

PhatPiggins wrote: »

I've seen him play 5/6 time for Toulon and he's always been one of the top 5 forwards on the pitch. That said he was generally as good for LI. I don't know what he's done to piss off successive England managers but when you look at the square pegs they've played at 7 the past 6 years it must have been bad !!

Can't believe you've admitted to watching Toulon!

If Toulon get to the Top14 final (2 weeks after the HEC final), Armitage would be unavailable for a few of the games. I expect England to recall Armitage for the AIs if he continues his vein of form. He's definitely the best English openside around atm.

damianmcr

When will the Boks squad be annoucned?

CatFromHue

NZ have announced their 35 training squad for the Ireland games.

All Blacks training squad:

Blues: Charlie Faumuina, Ma'a Nonu, Keven Mealamu, Piri Weepu, Ali Williams and Tony Woodcock.

Chiefs: Sam Cane, Aaron Cruden, Richard Kahui, Tawera Kerr-Barlow, Brodie Retallick, Ben Tameifuna and Sonny Bill Williams.

Hurricanes: Beauden Barrett, Cory Jane, Julian Savea, Brad Shields, Conrad Smith and Victor Vito.

Crusaders: Daniel Carter, Wyatt Crockett, Israel Dagg, Andy Ellis, Ben Franks, Owen Franks, Richie McCaw, Kieran Read, Luke Romano, Luke Whitelock and Samuel Whitelock.

Highlanders: Tamati Ellison, Andrew Hore, Aaron Smith, Ben Smith and Adam Thomson.

---

Props: Tony Woodcock, Wyatt Crockett, Ben Franks, Owen Franks, Charlie Faumuina, Ben Tameifuna

Hookers: Andrew Hore, Keven Mealamu

Second Row:Ali Williams, Samuel Whitelock, Brodie Retallick, Luke Romano

Back Row: Richie McCaw, Kieran Read, Adam Thomson, Victor Vito, Sam Cane, Brad Shields, Luke Whitelock

Scrum Half: Andy Ellis, Piri Weepu, Tawera Kerr-Barlow, Aaron Smith

OutHalf: Daniel Carter, Aaron Cruden, Beauden Barrett

Centre: Ma'a Nonu, Richard Kahui, Conrad Smith, Sonny Bill Williams, Tamati Ellison

Wing/full back: Israel Dagg, Cory Jane, Julian Savea, Ben Smith

Carter could play at 12 and Kahui is out with a dislocated shoulder.

Tox56

Jaysus..

Clegg

Lancaster has named a pretty youthful squad. Do we think that we'll see any similarities with Kidneys selection?

CatFromHue

Clegg wrote: »

Lancaster has named a pretty youthful squad. Do we think that we'll see any similarities with Kidneys selection?

England are playing a couple of midweek games on tour so there is a few inexperienced/new players in the squad.

We're not so there won't be many similarities.

Clegg

The lack of midweek games is a shocking oversight.

It would have been the perfect opportunity to try out new players.

thomond2006

CatFromHue wrote: »

NZ have announced their 35 training squad for the Ireland games.

Props: Tony Woodcock, Wyatt Crockett, Ben Franks, Owen Franks, Charlie Faumuina, Ben Tameifuna

Hookers: Andrew Hore, Keven Mealamu

Second Row:Ali Williams, Samuel Whitelock, Brodie Retallick, Luke Romano

Back Row: Richie McCaw, Kieran Read, Adam Thomson, Victor Vito, Sam Cane, Brad Shields, Luke Whitelock

Scrum Half: Andy Ellis, Piri Weepu, Tawera Kerr-Barlow, Aaron Smith

OutHalf: Daniel Carter, Aaron Cruden, Beauden Barrett

Centre: Ma'a Nonu, Richard Kahui, Conrad Smith, Sonny Bill Williams, Tamati Ellison

Wing/full back: Israel Dagg, Cory Jane, Julian Savea, Ben Smith

Carter could play at 12 and Kahui is out with a dislocated shoulder.

Only 3 players not available from the XV that started the RWC final: Thorn, Kaino and Kahui. Plus Carter is back from injury.

RoundBox11

CatFromHue wrote: »

Carter could play at 12 and Kahui is out with a dislocated shoulder.

Why do people keep mentioning this. Doesn't make sense to me.

Why would they play the best out half in the world at 12 when they have Nonu and Sonny Bill Williams already clogging up 12?

Is it to develop another 10 or something?

CIARAN_BOYLE

RoundBox11 wrote: »

Why do people keep mentioning this. Doesn't make sense to me.

Why would they play the best out half in the world at 12 when they have Nonu and Sonny Bill Williams already clogging up 12?

Is it to develop another 10 or something?

he has been playing 12 in super rugby recently

irishbucsfan

RoundBox11 wrote: »

Why do people keep mentioning this. Doesn't make sense to me.

Why would they play the best out half in the world at 12 when they have Nonu and Sonny Bill Williams already clogging up 12?

Is it to develop another 10 or something?

Carter has been playing 12

Clegg

New Zealand have their player succession program in perfect order.

Carter is still an outstanding 10 but plays at 12 for the Crusaders so a younger player can get some gametime.

Meanwhile we're still picking DOC for Ireland even though he doesn't start for Munster. And then there is ROG.

theKramer

Clegg wrote: »

New Zealand have their player succession program in perfect order.

Carter is still an outstanding 10 but plays at 12 for the Crusaders so a younger player can get some gametime.

Sorry to contradict, but the reason Carter is playing 12 is to protect his groin, so he wont have to do as much kicking.

danthefan

I think there might be an issue with Carter's goalkicking too with the nature of the injury he had.

Edit - managed to not read the post above, oops.

Clegg

theKramer wrote: »

Sorry to contradict, but the reason Carter is playing 12 is to protect his groin, so he wont have to do as much kicking.

I know.

But if Carter was Irish then we'd be sticking him straight in at 10 and Darcy would be at 12. No young players would be given a chance at the highest level and then when they retire we'd wonder why we have a team of young players with no international experience whatsoever.

Just look at the selection policy from this years six nations. Henry should have been in the squad at least once, the same goes for Tuohy. DOC should have been out of the squad entirely and Ryan should have started every game. Jennings shouldn't have been called up for the England game and Kidney should have been shot for bring TOL within a hundred miles of the Ireland set-up.

The only good thing to come out of it was O'Mahony getting some gametime.

ray jay

Clegg wrote: »

But if Carter was Irish then we'd be sticking him straight in at 10 and Darcy would be at 12.

Actually it would be more like Carter at 10 and Sexton at 12 oh wait...

danthefan

Clegg wrote: »

I know.

But if Carter was Irish then we'd be sticking him straight in at 10 and Darcy would be at 12. No young players would be given a chance at the highest level and then when they retire we'd wonder why we have a team of young players with no international experience whatsoever.

Just look at the selection policy from this years six nations. Henry should have been in the squad at least once, the same goes for Tuohy. DOC should have been out of the squad entirely and Ryan should have started every game. Jennings shouldn't have been called up for the England game and Kidney should have been shot for bring TOL within a hundred miles of the Ireland set-up.

The only good thing to come out of it was O'Mahony getting some gametime.

I'd be fairly happy if we were playing the best 10 on the planet by a distance at 10 tbh. Sounds perfect.

Clegg

Substitute Carter for ROG.

I probably didn't make my point very well but what I'm trying to say is that it doesn't matter if you're in poor form, not 100% fit or even starting for your team.

The Irish national team isn't including players that are on form and there is no real plan for the succession of players.

danthefan

Clegg wrote: »

Substitute Carter for ROG.

I probably didn't make my point very well but what I'm trying to say is that it doesn't matter if you're in poor form, not 100% fit or even starting for your team.

The Irish national team isn't including players that are on form and there is no real plan for the succession of players.

I agree with you. Carter is a terrible example to use though. There is no point in moving players about for the sake of it. You've a guy who's outstanding in his position? Grand stuff, leave him there.

Players like DOC, D'Arcy, POC even as he's getting on, BOD until injury, Wallace, there was just no attempt to find any sort of replacement for them.

Clegg

Carter wasn't the best example I agree.

We're also screwed if Ross gets injured again.

Although that isn't the fault of Kidney or the IRFU.

Paddy Wallace has gotten a very raw deal over the last 18 months. Everyone could see that D'arcy was struggling for Ireland yet he was continually picked for every game.

ScissorPaperRock

Are we pretty much screwed with no Bowe, POC, Fitzgerald?

.ak

We're pretty much screwed even with a full strength team. We'll never beat a top 4 team with Kidney at the reigns. Yes yes, we did it to Australia, but there's so many reasons surrounding that game it's not even funny. The fact we had to grind out a victory against a team that didn't rate us doesn't change anything.

Which is why most people think we should use this as 'deep-end' test for a lot of the up and coming players like Madigan, Cave, Touhy, Henry, Dave Kearney etc., etc.

CatFromHue

.ak wrote: »

We're pretty much screwed even with a full strength team. We'll never beat a top 4 team with Kidney at the reigns. Yes yes, we did it to Australia, but there's so many reasons surrounding that game it's not even funny. The fact we had to grind out a victory against a team that didn't rate us doesn't change anything.

Which is why most people think we should use this as 'deep-end' test for a lot of the up and coming players like Madigan, Cave, Touhy, Henry, Dave Kearney etc., etc.

C'mon now .ak that's a bit much.

Ireland 15 - 10 SA 28/11/09. SA were ranked No.1 in the world at the time. http://www.irb.com/rankings/archive/date=2009-10-26/histranking.html

Ireland 24 - 8 England 19/03/11. England were ranked fourth in the world at the time. http://www.irb.com/rankings/archive/date=2011-03-14/histranking.html

CatFromHue

Wales have added a mid week game against the Brumbies on their tour to Oz. It's between the first and second test. I think though Wales have over done it Here is what their fixture list looks like

Sat 2 BaaBaas
Sat 9 Oz
Tue 12 Brumbies
Sat 16 Oz
Sat 23 Oz

So that's 5 games in 3 weeks, 4 of which will be first rate, and throw in a pig of a flight to Oz within this time frame too.

For example if they fly out on the Monday after the BaaBaa game they won't get to Oz until the Wednesday morning (most flights leave Heathrow in the evening/night) at which stage they will have been travelling for 25 hours. Nothing much will happen on the Wednesday so, maybe a light run out to loosen the bones. That just leaves Thursday to do any training which will more than likely just be set piece moves etc. Friday rest. Then the game on Saturday and another one on the Tuesday!

That's a tough schedule to say the least!

WeeBushy

minijason9 wrote: »

If you want to get paid to see the world, being a tour guide is the perfect job for you. Tour guides take groups of people on tourist visits. You tell the group about the area's history, environment, culture and architecture. You also trouble shoot problems, settle differences and keep everyone on schedule

This a suggestion for what to do with Kidney? Not a bad idea tbh, would keep him away from the team for large tracts of the year.

CIARAN_BOYLE

CatFromHue wrote: »

Wales have added a mid week game against the Brumbies on their tour to Oz. It's between the first and second test. I think though Wales have over done it Here is what their fixture list looks like

Sat 2 BaaBaas
Sat 9 Oz
Tue 12 Brumbies
Sat 16 Oz
Sat 23 Oz

So that's 5 games in 3 weeks, 4 of which will be first rate, and throw in a pig of a flight to Oz within this time frame too.

For example if they fly out on the Monday after the BaaBaa game they won't get to Oz until the Wednesday morning (most flights leave Heathrow in the evening/night) at which stage they will have been travelling for 25 hours. Nothing much will happen on the Wednesday so, maybe a light run out to loosen the bones. That just leaves Thursday to do any training which will more than likely just be set piece moves etc. Friday rest. Then the game on Saturday and another one on the Tuesday!

That's a tough schedule to say the least!

About half the squad are flying out before the babas game so I doubt it will be a first rate game. I reckon the first choice XV will be out there before the babas game while fringe players and shane williams plays against the barbarians. A similar team will play brumbies too.

SomeFool

.ak wrote: »

Which is why most people think we should use this as 'deep-end' test for a lot of the up and coming players like Madigan, Cave, Touhy, Henry, Dave Kearney etc., etc.

That could well end up doing more harm than good to some of these players. Can't see past us being whitewashed either way

CatFromHue

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

About half the squad are flying out before the babas game so I doubt it will be a first rate game. I reckon the first choice XV will be out there before the babas game while fringe players and shane williams plays against the barbarians. A similar team will play brumbies too.

That makes sense. Another nail in the coffin of the BaaBaas though. Now teams won't even give them full strength weekend matches.

Big Nelly

EOM is out of action for 6 months. I would have liked to have seen him in the squad. But sure if gives Kidney a reason not to pick him.....its a huge loss IMO because he had a very good season

Source is on Leinster thread!!!

CatFromHue

Big Nelly wrote: »

EOM is out of action for 6 months. I would have liked to have seen him in the squad. But sure if gives Kidney a reason not to pick him.....its a huge loss IMO because he had a very good season

EOM wouldn't have travelled anyway as he is behind BOD, Earls, and Cave. He was never in with a chance of travelling. He could have been in a good position to play against the BaaBaas depending on his availability for the Rabo final though.

For the past three A games EOM has started all of them. So he is on the radar and Kidney is paying attention to him.

Podge_irl

.ak wrote: »

Which is why most people think we should use this as 'deep-end' test for a lot of the up and coming players like Madigan, Cave, Touhy, Henry, Dave Kearney etc., etc.

I certainly don't think that. I think Tuohy should play because he's the best available. I think Henry should get a shot as he's potentially the best 7 available. And Madigan is the second best 10. But I want Ireland to put out their best team and try to win the games.

thomond2006

Wales squad for June Tests:

FORWARDS:
Ryan Bevington (Ospreys), Luke Charteris (Newport Gwent Dragons), Ian Evans (Ospreys), Bradley Davies (Cardiff Blues), Toby Faletau (Newport Gwent Dragons), Rhys Gill (Saracens), Richard Hibbard (Ospreys), Paul James (Ospreys), Gethin Jenkins (Cardiff Blues), Adam Jones (Ospreys), Alun Wyn Jones (Ospreys), Rhodri Jones (Scarlets), Ryan Jones (Ospreys), Dan Lydiate (Newport Gwent Dragons), Ken Owens (Scarlets), Matthew Rees (Scarlets), Aaron Shingler (Scarlets), Justin Tipuric (Ospreys), Josh Turnbull (Scarlets), Sam Warburton (Cardiff Blues), Martyn Williams (Cardiff Blues).

BACKS:
Ashley Beck (Ospreys), Dan Biggar (Ospreys), Andrew Bishop (Ospreys), Aled Brew (Biarritz), Alex Cuthbert (Cardiff Blues), Jonathan Davies (Scarlets), Leigh Halfpenny (Cardiff Blues), Will Harries (Newport Gwent Dragons), James Hook (Ospreys), George North (Scarlets), Mike Phillips (Bayonne), Rhys Priestland (Scarlets), Harry Robinson (Cardiff Blues), Rhys Webb (Ospreys), Lloyd Williams (Cardiff Blues), Scott Williams (Scarlets), Liam Williams (Scarlets).

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/18050274

justsomebloke

with the added game the WRU put on during the winter and now this you have to wonder are they really stuck for money? It's been a long season for their players and I doubt they see the need for yet another game

irishbucsfan

Wales are flying 15 players to Oz before the BaaBaas match according to S4C on the weekend. The bench for the Oz came will be chosen based on.performance in that game. The game the following Tuesday will probably involve anyone not involved the Saturday and then if anyone really performs they might push their way onto the bench for the next game.

It's certainly not too much for those players to handle. Not like anyone will be playing more than 3 games in 3 weeks.

In fact I wish the IRFU would do something similar in NZ

irishbucsfan

justsomebloke wrote: »

with the added game the WRU put on during the winter and now this you have to wonder are they really stuck for money? It's been a long season for their players and I doubt they see the need for yet another game

Don't think the WRU would get much from the Brumbies game?

Armitage named Top 14 player of the year!

sock puppet

Wonder what Australia will do for the game against Scotland on Tuesday. The Super 15 runs right up until the weekend before the game. Only the Reds and Force have a bye then, so you'd think a lot of players will be unavailable unless Deans pulls them from their Super Rugby squads. Could be a very weak team that faces Scotland.