[EV] Renault Fluence ZE [large photos]

beazee

Took her for a 40 min test drive today. 160km range (manufacturers statement)
22kW battery pack in boot (took half of the loading space) but offers the facility of battery swap. When fully established by "Better Place" in California, Hawaii and Japan will allow battery swap in less than 2 minutes.

According to dealership rep - 96km long stretch of motorway left him with ca. 30km left.

So lets put her to the tests:

1. Engine "started up", lights on, stationary, 0kW consumption


2. M9 Waterford - Kilkenny, cruise control set at 120kmh, flat stretch, 26kW consumed (instant reading)
22/26*120= battery should allow for 101km distance in 51 minutes to flat


3. CC at 110kmh, flat stretch, 18kW
22/18*110= 134km distance in 73 min


4. CC at 100, flat, 16kW
22/16*100= 137km dist in 83 min


5. CC at 96kmh, downhill, 6kW feed to battery (charging up)


6. CC at 96kmh, flat, 12kW
22/12*96=176kmh in 1h50m


7. CC at 90kmh, flat, 9kW
22/9*90= 220km in 2h26m


8. Approaching motorway end at Grannagh with 50kmh limit, CC off, foot off accelerator, "engine breaking" => 30kW feed to battery (charging up)


9. When accelerator floored to the max from stop, energy consumption reached 80kW for few seconds [when done in the same manner in my 1.4 petrol indicaton was 4MPG]

10. Rapid acceleration within motorway speeds (90-120) never went over 36 kW

11. Just because the inside is so quiet and so many noises from outside are heard it felt bit freaky to go over 120kmh, seriously!

12. One extreme hill was 46kW climbing up [usually get 10mpg uphill for my petrol there]



13. Boot space is bit dissapointing (317 l)


14. Currently offers no fast-charge option (will be introduced in 2013, 40min to full)

15. Friends+family charging option: 8 Amp charger (ca. 7-8 hrs to 100%) allows to charge from any domestic socket.

16. Household charging station, installed at ones home by ESB (ca. 5-6 hrs to full)

MuppetCheck

Good to see figures like those however I find it ridiculous that you or your front seat passenger was reaching across to take photos like that on the M9 motorway.

beazee

He did.

-Corkie-

MuppetCheck wrote: »

Good to see figures like those however I find it ridiculous that you or your front seat passenger was reaching across to take photos like that on the M9 motorway.

Especially the one of the boot....:pac:

MugMugs

Battery charge when engine breaking? Is that right?

MuppetCheck

beazee wrote: »

He did.

Doesn't matter which one of you it was. There was a man killed on that stretch only a month ago and the surface is questionable at times too. Couple this with farm machinery that regularly use it that was irresponsible.

beazee

MugMugs wrote: »

Battery charge when engine breaking? Is that right?

That it totally right but when mentioned about it in some other thread a discussion about thermodynamics broke.

beazee

MuppetCheck wrote: »

Couple this with farm machinery that regularly use it that was irresponsible.

How come farm machinery is allowed on M9?

MugMugs

beazee wrote: »

MugMugs wrote: »

Battery charge when engine breaking? Is that right?

That it totally right but when mentioned about it in some other thread a discussion about thermodynamics broke.

That's interesting. You can prolong your journey with intermittent charges from engine braking?

beazee

MugMugs wrote: »

That's interesting. You can prolong your journey with intermittent charges from engine braking?

You can actually charge fully depleted LEAF by being towed and breaking.
Not that Nissan approves.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Sujv90PLLY

MuppetCheck

beazee wrote: »

How come farm machinery is allowed on M9?

It's not and is a danger. Like your test drive.

eringobragh

beazee wrote: »

How come farm machinery is allowed on M9?

If it's capable of exceeding 50kmph it's allowed no?

Gumbo

MuppetCheck wrote: »

It's not and is a danger. Like your test drive.

Jez, get over it. His passenger took the photos, and with zooms on modern cameras and phones for that matter, its not like he was in his face blocking the road in front.

remember that the next time you reach over to pick up a drink while driving, or change the radio station or scratch your knee.

Kristopherus

MuppetCheck wrote: »

It's not and is a danger. Like your test drive.

Crikey, there's always one.:eek: :rolleyes:

TestTransmission

Seriously folks,back on topic

MuppetCheck

kceire wrote: »

Jez, get over it. His passenger took the photos, and with zooms on modern cameras and phones for that matter, its not like he was in his face blocking the road in front.

remember that the next time you reach over to pick up a drink while driving, or change the radio station or scratch your knee.

Some zoom! That's proper reaching over for that angle meaning someone is in a bad position in the car. It's more than changing a radio station and as someone that was in an accident as a result of something similar I am a little more in tune to such stupidity.

Edit - just saw previous post. I was typing at the time.

naughtysmurf

Was having my Fluence diesel serviced today and so had a peek at the Fluence EV, there is practically no boot space at all with the positioning of the battery so it's not practical as a family car at all

They do plan to bring out another EV for less than 20K around the size of a Clio I'm led to believe, if they get the positioning of the battery sorted it could be interesting.

We have & need / require two cars, one does 20-30K per year, the other 7/8K so a practical EV at the right price would definatley fit the bill

beazee

naughtysmurf wrote: »

They do plan to bring out another EV for less than 20K around the size of a Clio I'm led to believe, if they get the positioning of the battery sorted it could be interesting.

Renault Zoe that is. With underfloor battery and fast charger on board (=> you could connect her to any changing point to fast charge unlike LEAF).
Ca. 15K figure I was led to believe. And expected date of October 2012.

Battery leasing would be ca. €70 pm at 16,000km pa

Bandara

Anyway

Back to the point (and I'm genuinely not trying to turn this into a evs are stoopid thread)

Is it just not too difficult at the minute to really justify one?

I fully understand the fuel cost situation is absurd at the moment and alternatives have to be found, but is the EV really not viable to compete in the open marketplace with a regular car as its so limited. I know that in reality most people do less than 30-40 miles a day so in fact the EV is perfect, but its just the "but what if I want to drive to Cork and back" argument that blows the EVs out of the water. We all know that people dont just drive to Cork and back, but still the inflexibility of the EV is just far too much for me. The whole "but you can put into a station in such a place a charge for 30 minutes and go again" is a nonsense, I dont think I've ever spend more than 10 minutes in a station in my life, and I'm being generous at even ten minutes, and the idea of hanging around for half an hour is brutal, I've visions of sitting down to watch my kettle boil ten times in a row !

And as a car lover the performance is a killer. I couldn't personally drive a boring bog standard ford mondeo and similarly I cant drive a EV, the looks, the power, its just a step too far.

I think the realility is for me its still in development, expect this time they have real life versions now, whereas 5 or 10 years ago it was concept stuff in motor shows. And taking this argument forward in 5 or 10 years time they will have the technology to hopefully have a EV car that stands up to a (for example) a decent 2 ltr car with decent bhp.

You mention in your post that the battery pack is interchangable ? But does that not mean you need to shell out on a second battery pack? Or am I getting mixed up?

beazee

Hammertime wrote: »

battery pack is interchangable ? But does that not mean you need to shell out on a second battery pack? Or am I getting mixed up?

Idea behind Renault/Better Place project was all batteries are owned by Renault/Better Place and only leased to customers.

You run out of juice - arrive at Better Place battery swap station, swipe card, enter process similar to carwash, leave within 2 minutes.

Well, you need significant amt of cars to make money on this. Won't happen in Ireland.

naughtysmurf

Hammertime wrote: »

Anyway

Back to the point (and I'm genuinely not trying to turn this into a evs are stoopid thread)

Is it just not too difficult at the minute to really justify one?

I fully understand the fuel cost situation is absurd at the moment and alternatives have to be found, but is the EV really not viable to compete in the open marketplace with a regular car as its so limited. I know that in reality most people do less than 30-40 miles a day so in fact the EV is perfect, but its just the "but what if I want to drive to Cork and back" argument that blows the EVs out of the water. We all know that people dont just drive to Cork and back, but still the inflexibility of the EV is just far too much for me. The whole "but you can put into a station in such a place a charge for 30 minutes and go again" is a nonsense, I dont think I've ever spend more than 10 minutes in a station in my life, and I'm being generous at even ten minutes, and the idea of hanging around for half an hour is brutal, I've visions of sitting down to watch my kettle boil ten times in a row !

And as a car lover the performance is a killer. I couldn't personally drive a boring bog standard ford mondeo and similarly I cant drive a EV, the looks, the power, its just a step too far.

I think the realility is for me its still in development, expect this time they have real life versions now, whereas 5 or 10 years ago it was concept stuff in motor shows. And taking this argument forward in 5 or 10 years time they will have the technology to hopefully have a EV car that stands up to a (for example) a decent 2 ltr car with decent bhp.

You mention in your post that the battery pack is interchangable ? But does that not mean you need to shell out on a second battery pack? Or am I getting mixed up?

Their range at the moment is an issue without doubt but I'd expect that to improve over time, oil also is a finate resourse (so they say) so an alternative fuel source will have to be found

I've a 10/15 minute comute to work so don't really have time to get board so would happily drive an EV taking into account short commute, running costs etc

I'd see them as a second car at the moment as I agree, they are still in development

As I understant it, with Renault, as you are leasing the battery, so not owning it, it wouldn't cost you anything for a battery upgrade

eth0

I don't believe in this renting batteries codology

Pkiernan

MuppetCheck wrote: »

Doesn't matter which one of you it was. There was a man killed on that stretch only a month ago and the surface is questionable at times too. Couple this with farm machinery that regularly use it that was irresponsible.

Relax FFS :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Marcusm

eth0 wrote: »

I don't believe in this renting batteries codology

Where battery switching technology as per the Renault/BetterPlace offer applies, I think you'll find it's far from codology. Read the EV posts on here and you'll see two of the biggest issues putting people off are "range anxiety" and battery obsolescence. If the R/BP offer comes to Ireland (not unless big uptake) then both issues can be dealt with. They install 2 power points for you, one at home and one at work. Both are relatively speedy smart charge points - they'll charge off cheap night rate electricity and usually the electricity cost is included meaning your monthly charge is your fuel cost. Range anxiety is dealt with by the quick switching points, located at service stations etc. if 2 minutes is achievable, that's quicker than a top up with petrol. As the battery is owned by BP, you don't have to worry about obsolescence.

Great for high density population areas with high car usage (Israel and Denmark were initial run outs).

No EV will be a perfect swap for a common car but this could close - not in Ireland though, I'd imagine.

Idbatterim

do EV's use low resistance tyres and just how aerodynamic are they?

September1

Idbatterim wrote: »

do EV's use low resistance tyres and just how aerodynamic are they?

Yes, most of manufacturers provide LRR tyres as they extend range. Those EVs that were converted from ICEs would usually inherit aerodynamic properties, maybe with some improvements. Cars that were designed to be EVs try to be as aerodynamic as possible, GM's EV1 is good example.

beazee

An overnight 12 hour charge didn’t help and in the morning, while the battery gauge showed the Fluence was full to the brim with excited electrons, the on-board computer was pessimistically predicting I’d be hitching a lift after 88kms. Who to trust: car or car company?

Against most people’s advice I opted for the car company. On the M50 at motorway speeds everything was fine and I purposefully didn’t lighten my right foot at any stage of the 53km trip. By the time I arrived, the battery gauge showed half a charge left and the onboard computer grudgingly admitted I still had 55kms in the bank. By the time I got back to the office and then home, I had completed a monumental 101.8kms and the well-beaten on-board computer was showing I still could drive another 19kms. Human - 1: onboard computer – 0

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/motors/2012/0509/1224315794882.html

zuroph

Thanks for this, the exact info I required, would get me to work no problem.
As side note, Renault dealer informed me that they are currently waiving the rental fee for battery for two years on purchases made this year

beazee

zuroph wrote: »

they are currently waiving the rental fee

Correct. But th problem with 2012 Fluence ZE is no fast charging option. Zoe, launch in Oct, seems to be a better deal.

zuroph

could i expect the same range on the zoe?

beazee

Same range, possibly same boot space and on-board fast charger.
Expected to be priced at €16K + €70 pm battery rental (2y free waiver).

Photos source: http://www.facebook.com/RenaultZE

September1

I think ZOE would have 210km (NEDC) vs only 185km (NEDC) Fluence range. I would be suprised if boot would be small, because this car is designed to be electric so no need for awkward placing of battery. It would be able to charge anywhere in Ireland in about 1 hour and current fast chargers can be modified to charge ZOE in about 30 minutes. It also uses heat pump which is great range extender in winter. Once released this would be probably best EV around, with range similar to low-end Tesla but at much lower price.

extremetaz

Hammertime wrote: »

Is it just not too difficult at the minute to really justify one?

...

To "justify" one - not difficult at all - as I've mentioned in other threads, our monthly fuel bill has dropped by about 65% since we got our Leaf (and that factors in additional finance and ESB costs). Justification enough right there methinks (I've gone into this in far more detail in other threads).

However - the bottom line is that they clearly won't meet your required standards just yet. Give 'em time though.

eth0 wrote: »

I don't believe in this renting batteries codology

I hear ya!

The battery lease thing kills the financial benefits outright - makes the changeover entirely pointless.

As for battery swap - whilst I can see it's merits, it's at least 3-4 generations of EV away yet so I wouldn't be factoring that into any potential purchase inside of the next 5-8 years.

Idbatterim wrote: »

do EV's use low resistance tyres and just how aerodynamic are they?

They run low rolling resistance tyres yes.

The Aerodynamics (on the leaf at least) are fairly trick without being outrageous. They've made good efforts at keep the leading edges clean and the surfaces smooth. The trailing edges are either sharp or there are features employed to enduce turbulance in order to aid separation. The details are subtle, but they're there.

extremetaz

One other thing.

From the OP, the 8A charge figures don't add up.

8A @ 230V == 1.9kW

The pack is 22kWh from the same post.

Therefore, EVSE Stage 1 charging (which is what the 8A current limit suggests) would take 11-12 hours. This level of charge can be achieved via a standard 3-pin socket. However, if Renault are supplying such cables as standard, then they're doing so against the wishes of the ESB (unless their stance on them has changed - in which case I'd be happy to stand corrected)

EVSE Stage 2 charging is 16A, and to the best of my knowledge, the charger on the Fluence supports this. This is the charge type provided by a charge access point. This connection is 3.6kW and will charge the pack full in about 7 hours.

As mentioned, the DC fact charge option is not available on Renault models as yet.

extremetaz

One last point - I wouldn't put too much trust in the NEDC figures.

The EPA figures got it near spot on for the Leaf, so I'd be more inclined to look at those.

For the sake of comparison, the Leaf got 109 miles on the NEDC, and 73 miles on EPA. My own 7000km since purchase agrees, to a margin of less than 3%, with the EPA figure taken as a safe maximum.

Having said that, we live in the midlands and our figures come from commuting to Dublin so perhaps is a suburban setting, results closer to the NEDC figures would be appropriate.

extremetaz

Crap - very last point (I promise).

The Fully Charged convention is on the 11th of July at the Convention center in Dublin - if I understand things correctly, the Fluence, Zoe, Kangoo, Leaf and MiEV will all be available for public test drives.

I'm not sure of the specifics but it's certainly worth looking into for anyone who's curious about how the various cars feel/look/drive.

beazee

extremetaz wrote: »

8A @ 230V == 1.9kW

The pack is 22kWh from the same post.

Therefore, EVSE Stage 1 charging (which is what the 8A current limit suggests) would take 11-12 hours.

Agreed. This was the rep speaking. Didn't give him much attention.
11-12 hrs is about right.
And he was pretty convincing when talking about 8A cable.
8A seems to be ESB approved home charging rate. It was 13A rated cables assumed to may cause problems.

beazee

extremetaz wrote: »

11th of July at the Convention center in Dublin - if I understand things correctly, the Fluence, Zoe, Kangoo, Leaf and MiEV will all be available for public test drives.

If I get it right it's too early for Zoe. Renault just started EV tour in NI and UK showing their EV fleet (Fluence, Kangoo, Twizy) and ZOE is to join them at some later stage.

extremetaz

Sitec wrote: »

I would love to attend the Fully Charged convention but the price is ridiculous!

I'm not certain you have to be a delegate - the way I read it was that the test drives were open to the public. Am entirely open to correction on that though.

I agree entirely regarding the conference cost.