China's degrading human rights Vs Ireland's salivating trade missions

jkforde

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-17866176

So human rights get a perfunctory role in trade negotiations, we all know. But doesn't this dirty trade ultimately, in the long run, degrade all of us as well as our historical international reputation as staunch defenders of human rights.

Any trade with China has the blood, sweat & tears of its very courageous human rights activists and their families and oft disappeared supporters.

Our grubby trade mendicity is shameful.

Here's the DFA website in case anyone wants to send our Labour minister a thought.. www.dfa.ie/home/index.aspx?id=82777

Jonny7

As much as I am against Chinese human rights violations, I still buy their goods because they are cheap.

I'm not any better than the politicians in that regard.

Iwasfrozen

jkforde wrote: »

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-17866176

So human rights get a perfunctory role in trade negotiations, we all know. But doesn't this dirty trade ultimately, in the long run, degrade all of us as well as our historical international reputation as staunch defenders of human rights.

Any trade with China has the blood, sweat & tears of its very courageous human rights activists and their families and oft disappeared supporters.

Our grubby trade mendicity is shameful.

Here's the DFA website in case anyone wants to send our Labour minister a thought.. www.dfa.ie/home/index.aspx?id=82777

It's well known that a country's human rights increase as prosperity increases. If we don't trade with China their human rights will never improve.

Manach

My own query is why are the Irish Government are at least not giving a partial recognition to Taiwan, a small democratic state being overshadowed by its giant totalitarion neighbour.

DrumSteve

jkforde wrote: »

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-17866176

So human rights get a perfunctory role in trade negotiations, we all know. But doesn't this dirty trade ultimately, in the long run, degrade all of us as well as our historical international reputation as staunch defenders of human rights.

Any trade with China has the blood, sweat & tears of its very courageous human rights activists and their families and oft disappeared supporters.

Our grubby trade mendicity is shameful.

Here's the DFA website in case anyone wants to send our Labour minister a thought.. www.dfa.ie/home/index.aspx?id=82777

I think this might be a misnomer in a way... it more of a projected view of human rights rather than actual rights as anyone who was here before the late 90's can see. Magdalene Laundries, Catholic Church child abuse scandals, The general lack of mental health facilities and so forth, to name but a few issues.

I think trade with china is a great thing for this country and we should embrace it. They are a great bunch of lads.

Iwasfrozen

Manach wrote: »

My own query is why are the Irish Government are at least not giving a partial recognition to Taiwan, a small democratic state being overshadowed by its giant totalitarion neighbour.

Any country that recognises Taiwan cannot have diplomatic relations withe the PRC. They've always been very clear about that. Besides Taiwan isn't even recognised by the UN.

Min

These are the countries that recognise Taiwan and the year they recognised Taiwan:
Belize 1989
Burkina Faso 1994
Dominican Republic 1957
El Salvador 1961
Gambia 1995
Guatemala 1960
Haiti 1956
Honduras 1965
Kiribati 2003
Marshall islands 1988
Nauru 1980-2002, then from 2005
Nicaragua 1990
Palau 1999
Panama 1954
Paraguay 1957
St Kitts and Nevis 1983
St Lucia 1984-1997, then from 2007
St Vincent and the Grenadines 1981
Sao Tomé and Principe 1997
Solomon islands 1983
Swaziland 1968
Tuvalu 1979
Vatican City/The Holy See 1949


I think it is disgusting that Ireland is prostituting itself to the Chinese government.

Iwasfrozen

Min wrote: »

These are the countries that recognise Taiwan and the year they recognised Taiwan:
Belize 1989
Burkina Faso 1994
Dominican Republic 1957
El Salvador 1961
Gambia 1995
Guatemala 1960
Haiti 1956
Honduras 1965
Kiribati 2003
Marshall islands 1988
Nauru 1980-2002, then from 2005
Nicaragua 1990
Palau 1999
Panama 1954
Paraguay 1957
St Kitts and Nevis 1983
St Lucia 1984-1997, then from 2007
St Vincent and the Grenadines 1981
Sao Tomé and Principe 1997
Solomon islands 1983
Swaziland 1968
Tuvalu 1979
Vatican City/The Holy See 1949


I think it is disgusting that Ireland is prostituting itself to the Chinese government.

So not a major country among them. And nobodies prostituting themselves to anyone.

walshb

Jonny7 wrote: »

As much as I am against Chinese human rights violations, I still buy their goods because they are cheap.

I'm not any better than the politicians in that regard.

I couldn't give a toss what China and its people do with its people. That is their buisness. If they want to sell me something and it's reliable, useful, and cheap, I will grab it.

Nodin

jkforde wrote: »

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-17866176

So human rights get a perfunctory role in trade negotiations, we all know. But doesn't this dirty trade ultimately, in the long run, degrade all of us as well as our historical international reputation as staunch defenders of human rights.

Any trade with China has the blood, sweat & tears of its very courageous human rights activists and their families and oft disappeared supporters.

Our grubby trade mendicity is shameful.

Here's the DFA website in case anyone wants to send our Labour minister a thought.. www.dfa.ie/home/index.aspx?id=82777[/QUOTE]

....this state, as all states do, places convenience ahead of principal. China is merely the latest, if perhaps one of the more obvious, examples. Its why protests are vital, in that silence allows such states appear "normal".

Min

walshb wrote: »

I couldn't give a toss what China and its people do with its people. That is their buisness. If they want to sell me something and it's reliable, useful, and cheap, I will grab it.

So you turned or would have turned a blind eye to the apartheid system in South Africa because that's their business?

squonk

Min wrote: »

These are the countries that recognise Taiwan and the year they recognised Taiwan:
Belize 1989
Burkina Faso 1994
Dominican Republic 1957
El Salvador 1961
Gambia 1995
Guatemala 1960
Haiti 1956
Honduras 1965
Kiribati 2003
Marshall islands 1988
Nauru 1980-2002, then from 2005
Nicaragua 1990
Palau 1999
Panama 1954
Paraguay 1957
St Kitts and Nevis 1983
St Lucia 1984-1997, then from 2007
St Vincent and the Grenadines 1981
Sao Tomé and Principe 1997
Solomon islands 1983
Swaziland 1968
Tuvalu 1979
Vatican City/The Holy See 1949

Nobody important in other words!

Min

squonk wrote: »

Nobody important in other words!

I will give one example, was Haiti not important after their earthquake?

We should view the little nations as being important as the big nations in terms of what they do or don't do.

Ireland and most countries speak from both sides of their mouths when it comes to abuse, Chinese abuse of it's citizens is tolerated by most nations.

Maybe the countries named above should be praised for recognising Taiwan over the far more powerful and undemocratic PRC.

Ellis Dee

Ireland's silence on human rights in China is not weakening the human rights of the Chinese people any more than vociferous condemnation by bigger countries (some of which have more than a few skeletons in their own cupboard and an agenda related to their own domestic policy) is helping to improve them.

China, in turn, has no reason to listen to lectures by countries like Britain, the USA, France, Spain, Japan or any of the other powers who have committed grave crimes against China and its people (among others) in the past.:rolleyes:

The People's Republic of China has had unchallenged control of the country's mainland territory only since 1949 - for 63 years. It took the USA with its much-vaunted "all men are born equal" principle nearly 90 years to abolish slavery. And that's just one example.:cool:

I wonder how the Americans would react if Bradley Manning, who blew the whistle on many American crimes all over the world, managed to escape custody and sought refuge in the Chinese Embassy in Washington DC?

Ireland should continue to trade with China and do so as cleverly as possible in a way that ensures mutual benefit. If we want to promote a greater respect for human rights in China, all we can do is support these rights as staunchly and consistently as we can within international organisations like the UN, which need to be strengthened rather than ignored or sidelined. Let us get our own human rights in order and continue to improve them. Setting a good example like that is the only realistic way we can influence China.:)

I believe that the Chinese are, in fact, not averse to improving the fundamental and human rights of their citizens, but their collective interests will come first and change in their society will be generated from within.:D

A few years ago, I had a small role working on a project within which Finnish and Swedish legal experts arranged training - in China and Europe - for Chinese legal experts, including judges. Much of the training had to do with free and fair trial procedures, sentencing guidelines, advice by defence counsel and such matters. It is a very significant fact that the training had been requested by the Chinese themselves.:)

Mr.Micro

jkforde wrote: »

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-17866176

So human rights get a perfunctory role in trade negotiations, we all know. But doesn't this dirty trade ultimately, in the long run, degrade all of us as well as our historical international reputation as staunch defenders of human rights.

Any trade with China has the blood, sweat & tears of its very courageous human rights activists and their families and oft disappeared supporters.

Our grubby trade mendicity is shameful.

Here's the DFA website in case anyone wants to send our Labour minister a thought.. www.dfa.ie/home/index.aspx?id=82777

We have sold out to everyone, we rolled over for the Catholic Church, US, EU, IMF and now China. China will be happy to get a foothold in Ireland, on the doorstep of Europe.

caoty

That list looks to me, about 99% of humanity fall into your category of prostitution. Nevermind, at least the child molesting leadership provider, the holy city, is on the list (prostitutinglessness), which means that we humans still have hope.

Min wrote: »

These are the countries that recognise Taiwan and the year they recognised Taiwan:
Belize 1989
Burkina Faso 1994
Dominican Republic 1957
El Salvador 1961
Gambia 1995
Guatemala 1960
Haiti 1956
Honduras 1965
Kiribati 2003
Marshall islands 1988
Nauru 1980-2002, then from 2005
Nicaragua 1990
Palau 1999
Panama 1954
Paraguay 1957
St Kitts and Nevis 1983
St Lucia 1984-1997, then from 2007
St Vincent and the Grenadines 1981
Sao Tomé and Principe 1997
Solomon islands 1983
Swaziland 1968
Tuvalu 1979
Vatican City/The Holy See 1949


I think it is disgusting that Ireland is prostituting itself to the Chinese government.

Min

caoty wrote: »

That list looks to me, about 99% of humanity fall into your category of prostitution. Nevermind, at least the child molesting holy city is on the list, which means that we humans still have hope.

Countries rather than humanity, governments do things that the people they rule don't support.
Simon Coveney basically said after his visit to China that the Chinese government likes Ireland because we aren't a threat and we don't make an issue out of the abuse that is perpretrated against the Chinese people.

caoty

How do you know that people in those 99% countries off your prostitution list do not support their government in this regard? Play God is really handy, isn't it?

By your logic, is there a chance that those governments on your list do not have their people's support to recongnize Taiwan instead of PRC? If not, what's the meaning of your list? Black humor?

Min wrote: »

Countries rather than humanity, governments do things that the people they rule don't support.
Simon Coveney basically said after his visit to China that the Chinese government likes Ireland because we aren't a threat and we don't make an issue out of the abuse that is perpretrated against the Chinese people.

Nodin

Min wrote: »

.................
Maybe the countries named above should be praised for recognising Taiwan over the far more powerful and undemocratic PRC.

Maybe you might research a subject before pronouncing on it....
http://www.pronicaragua.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=380%3Anicaragua-targets-asian-market&catid=9%3Anews&Itemid=143&lang=en

http://en.china.cn/content/d977123,8df599,4315_19118.html

http://allafrica.com/view/group/main/main/id/00014556.html

http://www.afribiz.info/content/burkina-faso-trade-and-economic-partnerships-2011

....and it has to be said I didn't make too detailed or in-depth a search.

Some might note that from 1948 until 1987 Taiwan itself was a dictatorship that used torture, executions and violently suppressed protest. Juxtaposing those dates with those on your list produces an interesting result. Evidently repression was not the problem, but what it was being done in the name of.

Even more amusing is the kind of Governments present in a few of the states when they recognised Taiwan. 'Hail, fellow traveller', in many ways.

goose2005

Change will come in Chinese society from within, every year there are more protests, more activism etc. and the Party are becoming less able and less willing to crack down. The only thing that could reverse this flow would be economic decline, so one could argue that this trade hub will actually help the Chinese people.

Nodin wrote: »

Even more amusing is the kind of Governments present in a few of the states when they recognised Taiwan. 'Hail, fellow traveller', in many ways.

? Taiwan was hardly communist.

Nodin

goose2005 wrote: »

................


? Taiwan was hardly communist.

Where did I state or imply that it was?

goose2005

Nodin wrote: »

Where did I state or imply that it was?

"Fellow traveller" = communist sympathiser

Nodin

goose2005 wrote: »

"Fellow traveller" = communist sympathiser

"fellow traveller" was used here for years to indicate or imply a republican sympathiser. Its meaning is quite broad in a modern context.

If you read the full sentence and actually looked at the dates and countries indicated, it would be fully and readily apparent what I was getting at. The Dominican republic, for instance, recognised Taiwan in 1957 according to that list, which is during the regime of this person.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rafael_Trujillo

The Waltzing Consumer

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

It's well known that a country's human rights increase as prosperity increases. If we don't trade with China their human rights will never improve.

This is the point of the thread so far. Compare China ten years ago to today, and then ten years before that and so on. As China becomes more open and trades with more countries, it increases prosperity and improves human rights and standards of living within China.

Solair

China's human rights records and lack of democracy is really not good, but I think the only way that that will ever change is when the Chinese people demand change.

With the opening up of trade, and more importantly, the opening up of communications, things will ultimately change.

I cannot see China continuing 'as is' for much longer. If it is sensible, it will reform, democratise and move away from the current setup.

If it's not sensible, it will just implode when its population gets angry enough. That's not a question of 'if' but rather 'when it happens.

Wild Bill

I see the UN has called on the US to cease it's racist assault on "native Americans".

But not a single US Congressman would meet the UN investigators to discus the issues.

And morons here get uptight about human rights abuses in China while we fawn on US multinationals and help (for free) US torture flights through Shannon?

Some folk can't do context it seems. Maybe because the Chinese are a different race, eh?

There's a name for that :cool:

Nodin

Wild Bill wrote: »

I see the UN has called on the US to cease it's racist assault on "native Americans".

But not a single US Congressman would meet the UN investigators to discus the issues.

And morons here get uptight about human rights abuses in China while we fawn on US multinationals and help (for free) US torture flights through Shannon?

Some folk can't do context it seems. Maybe because the Chinese are a different race, eh?

There's a name for that :cool:

Yes, the lack of opposition to US policies here is truly remarkable.

[Jackass]

Many Economies in the world are based on the cheap production value of the Chinese state, not least the USA.

There's a time to worry about human rights, but as long as we're not directly contributing to it (and by looking for Chinese investment and job creation in Ireland, we're not) then at least help ourselves out of our own mire, and then we can attempt to help others. But the moral high ground on issues where quite frankly we are irrelivent will achieve nothing.

Only if we have closer and more integrated Economic ties with China is their a hope in hell they'd listen to our human rights concerns, not least care about it.

Wild Bill

[Jackass] wrote: »

Only if we have closer and more integrated Economic ties with China is their a hope in hell they'd listen to our human rights concerns, not least care about it.

Of course we don't worry about trading with the Israelis, Saudis or Americans based on their "human rights" records.

We simply ape the self-interested hypocrisy of the Western Establishment.

Of which we are an integral part.

The Irish State has forfeited any moral right to question the human rights situation in any other country.

jkforde

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

It's well known that a country's human rights increase as prosperity increases. If we don't trade with China their human rights will never improve.

We also know trade's dividends can and are routinely cornered by a tight cabal of people with power & influence which doesn't result in any trickle down economic or political benefits for society at large. Take a look around, I personally observe that money & power is increasingly being distilled into a smaller & smaller number of people while social progress at the level of the state stalls.. but I am curious, where are the studies and the evidence that supports your statement that "a country's human rights increase as prosperity increases", I'm not being belligerent, I do want to know how this works.

maninasia

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

This is the point of the thread so far. Compare China ten years ago to today, and then ten years before that and so on. As China becomes more open and trades with more countries, it increases prosperity and improves human rights and standards of living within China.

Prosperity yes, human rights no. It's a big mistake to assume one goes with the other.

maninasia

So if Germany said Belgium is part of Germany, and Belgium had no mates except for a few small countries here and there, because they were all afraid of Germany, would that be okay?

Very poor logic in this thread. Ireland should have more trade and cultural representation in Taiwan, the reason it doesn't is because Bertie Ahern signed a trade deal with China and then extracted all Irish govt personnel out of Taiwan. The UK, Germany, France, Canada, the US, Holland etc. all have busy and successful trade and cultural centres in Taiwan.
The Irish government could actually have one in Taiwan if they wanted to but if you look they are missing trade and cultural centres all across Asia now aswell. Broke ass morons.