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Sol Campbell Retires
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02-05-2012 6:09pm#1
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Ferdinand has ALWAYS been slow on the turn, not just in the last three or four years.PhlegmyMoses wrote: »Firstly, your preamble about me being a United fan or being on a wind-up is pointless and adds nothing to the discussion.
Secondly, I really don't agree with almost all of this. His biggest problems on the turn have come when he went past 30, hence your mentioning Bellamy and Aguero in your assessment and the Blackburn, Basle and Everton results, from a season in which he is 33 years old. You are essentially basing your entire assessment of Ferdinand's career on a small portion of time. Vidic is currently a better defender but Ferdinand's peak > Vidic's peak, so far.
But he's renowned for his mis-timed tacklesPhlegmyMoses wrote: »He also does not dive in, pretty much at all. Any United fan that watches him will attest to that. His exceptional positional sense and reading of the game means he never needs to make the big challenges. He is one of the cleanest defenders I have ever seen. He has been blighted with injuries since 2008 but prior to that was an absolute colossus. His only major weakness is that he is not the best header of the ball. He is also not nearly as good on the ball as people think. His distribution is as limited as most centre backs.
- his scything tackle on Luis Suarez in United's 2-1 win over Liverpool last February being a good example, he got away with that one, even though it should have been a straight red. He also gets caught in possession far more often than Vidic, or even Johnny Evans, whether it's down to his first touch or not, i'm not sure. I've heard many United fans complain about this element of his game.
To me, Keown, while not being the best defender, was incredibly underrated, and would be in my top 10 Premier League CBs. While i will agree with you on Terry's lack of pace, his positional sense is far better. Even though i loathe the man's personality and some of the things he has done in his personal life, you cannot deny he is a great leader on the field. Look at how things have turned around for Chelsea since Di Matteo took over from AVB, putting Terry and Lampard back in the team, the two true leaders and most important first team players. If Ferdinand had returned in similar circumstances for United, i very much doubt he would have had nearly the same impact, because he doesn't have the personality or defensive ability of John Terry.PhlegmyMoses wrote: »You also have an unfounded, rosy view of the defenders you have mentioned. Prior to Wenger coming in, Adams had been struggled on the continental stage and had been nicknamed "donkey" by the press after a particularly poor performance where he was torn apart by one of these so-called nippy forwards. Don't get me wrong, Adams was a great CB, I'm just pointing out that he was hardly without flaws. Keown, whilst good, was not the same calibre of player mentioned.
Terry has never been as good as Ferdinand and if ever there was a defender susceptible to a bit of pace, he is it. His positioning is also poor. I find it hard to assess Carvalho as his career at Chelsea was blighted by injury (averaging around 22 league games a season) and he was incredibly rash in the tackle and prone to moments of madness.
Carvalho was a class act, i really can't believe you see him as being rash or mad in the tackle, to me he was calmness personified. A terrific defender. They've never truely replaced him. Alex certainly didn't match up to him, neither do Cahill or Luiz, who surely is the definition of "rash".
As i've already said, Ferdinand was and is still one of the best around, but I certainly disagree with you that he is/was the actual best. It should also be noted that when he was at his best, Chelsea and Arsenal were winning titles. United have won nearly every title since Vidic joined in 2006.PhlegmyMoses wrote: »Campbell and McGrath are greats but I'd still have Ferdinand over them both. For me, your points actually back up the points I made about stylistics. To a man, each one of these defenders are the bloody head-wound type of player. Ferdinand is different. He reads the game as well as anyone and organises the defence as well as anyone. Incredible player who does not get the credit he deserves from many. We all like our defenders to be rough and ready, Ferdinand has never been that. It doesn't mean he hasn't been one of the best around.
I would be highly confident in the majority of this forum agreeing with me that both McGrath and Campbell were better defenders than Ferdinand. I'd love to do a poll on it
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Ferdinand has ALWAYS been slow on the turn, not just in the last three or four years.
Again, I disagree. Pace, and pace on the turn, has been one of his main attributes throughout the years. Vidic is far more susceptible to being undone in this area.But he's renowned for his mis-timed tackles - his scything tackle on Luis Suarez in United's 2-1 win over Liverpool last February being a good example, he got away with that one, even though it should have been a straight red. He also gets caught in possession far more often than Vidic, or even Johnny Evans, whether it's down to his first touch or not, i'm not sure. I've heard many United fans complain about this element of his game.
Rio Ferdinand is not renowned for mistimed tackles. You can pick out a mistimed tackle if you look back far enough into every player's history. He has gone months between yellow cards in his career. For example:Rio Ferdinand’s last yellow card, for both club or country, came on March 14th 2009, during our 4-1 defeat to Liverpool at Old Trafford for a foul on Dirk Kuyt.
That’s 53 appearances and 4515 minutes of football without a yellow card.
You'll struggle to find a defender in the world with that kind of record.To me, Keown, while not being the best defender, was incredibly underrated, and would be in my top 10 Premier League CBs. While i will agree with you on Terry's lack of pace, his positional sense is far better. Even though i loathe the man's personality and some of the things he has done in his personal life, you cannot deny he is a great leader on the field. Look at how things have turned around for Chelsea since Di Matteo took over from AVB, putting Terry and Lampard back in the team, the two true leaders and most important first team players. If Ferdinand had returned in similar circumstances for United, i very much doubt he would have had nearly the same impact, because he doesn't have the personality or defensive ability of John Terry.
Terry has quite poor positional sense. This is why he makes so many last gasp tackles, it's why we see him, every so often, standing behind the goalkeeper trying to make a goal line clearance when a striker is bearing down on goal instead of being the one to close the player down. Terry was never left out of the Chelsea team this season. In their biggest game of the season, he got himself sent off when things started to look bad. Some leader.
If you want to look at impacts players have, have a look at United's goals conceded column before Ferdinand got banned in 03/04 and after. Even then, "impact" is a very hard term to quantify in a team game. I'm not sure it holds much water as so many other factors can affect league position and form.As i've already said, Ferdinand was and is still one of the best around, but I certainly disagree with you that he is/was the actual best. It should also be noted that when he was at his best, Chelsea and Arsenal were winning titles. United have won nearly every title since Vidic joined in 2006.
I would be highly confident in the majority of this forum agreeing with me that both McGrath and Campbell were better defenders than Ferdinand. I'd love to do a poll on it
Campbell is probably the only defender since the PL's inception that I would put into the same bracket as Ferdinand. McGrath is from a different era so it's hard to compare. he played most of his football in the old football league. I'm focusing on PL years.
Buying Vidic did not win United the titles. Having a great partnership with Ferdinand, coupled with a myriad of other elements, not relating to the defence at all, won those titles. Without Vidic we would have been poorer. Without Ferdinand, we would have been poorer. He was absolutely epic in our double season in 08.
I feel that you are basing a lot of your judgments on the Ferdinand of the last few years. He has had an injury nightmare and has never looked back to his 2008 best. But prior to this he was an absolute colossus and for many years held together a fairly ragged defence and made them a relatively cohesive unit. Without him, we would have been lost, as we saw in 03/04 when we came third and conceded a huge amount of goals.0 -
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