If you don't vote do you have a right to complain afterward?

darkman2

OK, just straight to the point. I hear alot of people and friends say they hate the government this that and the other but some of them who are the most virulent in their opposition say they did not vote when I asked them did they vote.

This irritates me because I believe if you are well able to vote and don't you are defacto forfeiting your right of complaint. I don't say the same for someone who spoiled their vote because at least they went to the trouble of spoiling a vote in protest or whatever. But those who sit at home, have easy access to a polling station, and are well able to get there to vote I think forfeit their right to complain. I don't even listen to them tbh.

A bit harsh? What do you reckon?

ednwireland

i would agree, but i am running out of options in terms of who to vote for, as soon as you out what you think is a decent candidate in, they have their noses in the trough

JustinDee

If you don't vote, you get the government you deserve so suck it up.

RichardAnd

The great George Carlin made some very poignant and humorous observations on voting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efKguI0NFek

The man was a genius and he really makes a good argument here.

Kinski

Politics neither begins nor ends in the polling booth. It's ridiculous to argue that someone doesn't have the "right" to criticize the elected because they didn't go to the "trouble" of travelling to a polling station and scribbling on a bit of paper (in other words, demanding that they perform a pointless gesture in place of what they evidently feel is already a pointless gesture.)

MajorMax

It has always been my opinion and experience that the people who bitch and moan the most about any Government are the ones who usually don't, as a rule, vote.

People get the Government they deserve

Nodin

You've a right to complain, but perhaps not much of a leg to stand on.

MadsL

When Ireland gets out of the dark ages and allows a proper postal vote then the statement will be true. Until then there are many who are disenfranchised through business or leisure travel on the day of the election/referendum.

Case in point was the moving of the presidential election, we booked a holiday assuming the rumoured (and fairly widely accepted) date only for the Govt to move it. No postal vote.

JustinDee

Kinski wrote: »

Politics neither begins nor ends in the polling booth. It's ridiculous to argue that someone doesn't have the "right" to criticize the elected because they didn't go to the "trouble" of travelling to a polling station and scribbling on a bit of paper (in other words, demanding that they perform a pointless gesture in place of what they evidently feel is already a pointless gesture.)

It isn't "ridiculous" at all.
Hypocritical apathy is one of the sad traits attributable to the Irish electorate. If you don't partake in any shape or form, don't expect it all to fall on your lap the way you want it.

Kinski

JustinDee wrote: »

It isn't "ridiculous" at all.
Hypocritical apathy is one of the sad traits attributable to the Irish electorate. If you don't partake in any shape or form, don't expect it all to fall on your lap the way you want it.

Assuming that everyone who holds strong political opinions but stays away from the polling booths is doing so out of apathy is a ridiculous position too. If none of the candidates on the ballot paper are acceptable to me, then I usually stay away. I don't participate because it's impossible for the election to produce a result I'll be content with.

darkman2

Kinski wrote: »

Assuming that everyone who holds strong political opinions but stays away from the polling booths is doing so out of apathy is a ridiculous position too. If none of the candidates on the ballot paper are acceptable to me, then I usually stay away. I don't participate because it's impossible for the election to produce a result I'll be content with.

Then why don't you spoil your vote? At least then you have made your feelings clear. Is that not preferable to sitting on your backside moaning knowing you had absolutely no input into the formation of a government? And you can say it's only one vote or whatever and it is but you are part of a large group of people who are too lazy to vote or don't care and then go on to moan. If a quarter of those people voted then you have a real effect on the outcome.

BritsOut

This also irritates me as I have friends who complain about government and don't vote as it is hypocritical. However when I think about it I would prefer if these people didn't vote because (in my own personal experience) they know nothing about politics and just follow whatever people around them believe, would you really want a sheep to vote?

Also I don't feel people are motivated enough to vote as they feel all politicians are the same and I'm sorry to say they are right to a certain degree. FF and FG have the exact same policies and often argue about the other's actions when in fact they would have done the same lol...

FG/FF = the same
Greens/Labour = pawns of the above
Sinn Fein = Slightly extreme but I feel they are more trustable than any of the above.
Independant TD's/ULA/other minor parties = All vary.

darkman2

BritsOut wrote: »

Sinn Fein = Slightly extreme but I feel they are more trustable than any of the above.

lol! I never would have guessed "BritsOut";)

Kinski

darkman2 wrote: »

Then why don't you spoil your vote? At least then you have made your feelings clear.

I've already addressed that. Spoiling your vote makes nothing clear - it's meaningless.

Is that not preferable to sitting on your backside moaning knowing you had absolutely no input into the formation of a government? And you can say it's only one vote or whatever and it is but you are part of a large group of people who are too lazy to vote or don't care and then go on to moan. If a quarter of those people voted then you have a real effect on the outcome.

See, the thing is that I don't consider strolling down to my local polling station once every year or two to be such a major expenditure of energy; neither could it be plausibly argued by anyone who knows me that I don't care about politics. So it's not that I'm "too lazy," or "sitting on my arse," or that I "don't care."

Now, perhaps your polling station is located atop Croagh Patrick, and you've got to hike up there to vote, and you can slip into bed at the end of polling day thinking "Some lazy people couldn't even be bothered to climb a mountain to cast their vote; I've earned the right to have an opinion about the governance of my country." But since these things are usually conveniently located in local schools and such-like, maybe you should stop assuming that it was the prospect of going all the way over to the polling station that made some of us stay away.

BritsOut

darkman2 wrote: »

lol! I never would have guessed "BritsOut";)

My propoganda knows no limits

hatrickpatrick

Everyone in this country has a right to object to their government's policies.

However, when it comes to not voting, it's my opinion that any reason you can come up with for choosing not to vote could be answered with a spoiled ballot. At least then you are explicitly registering your derision at the system, the choices on offer, or whatever - rather than simply registering nothing at all.

Just my two cents

JustinDee

Kinski wrote: »

Assuming that everyone who holds strong political opinions but stays away from the polling booths is doing so out of apathy is a ridiculous position too. If none of the candidates on the ballot paper are acceptable to me, then I usually stay away. I don't participate because it's impossible for the election to produce a result I'll be content with.

And you deserve what you have now.
Congrats.

Lantus

I voted for the Lisbon treaty but as an ordinary voter I got the answer 'wrong'.

The referendum was held again so I had an opportunity to apologise to the political elite and get the answer 'right'

Why bother to vote in the upcoming referendum because if we do get the answer wrong again it will only be asked again and again until 'they' get the answe they need to exercise the control and authority.

Zulu

While I make a point of voting, there needs to be a "no candidate suitable", or similar option. I refuse to spoil my vote, but if I could check this box I would.

OwaynOTT

Of course they can have an opinion about the government if they don't vote. Their still citizens. However I'd just wish a lot of people would think for themselves before they commented on the current state of affairs or even informed themselves just a little.

jasonb

Definitely agree that there needs to be a 'None of the above' option on Ballot Papers as well. That way you can register your opinion without spoiling your vote.

Spoiling your vote just lumps you in with people who don't understand how to vote.

J.

leggo

No, you don't have a right to complain. But you will anyway because you don't know any better. So the next time a budget rolls around you'll moan "de bleedin' goverment, der robbin us!!!!!!!", even if none of the policies directly effect you.

People complaining about politics, without educating themselves or participating, irks me somewhat.

Hayte

JustinDee wrote: »

If you don't vote, you get the government you deserve so suck it up.

And if you do vote, you get the government you don't deserve anyway. This will always happen when you have a small number of large political parties beholden to institutional interests.

I don't know why you are labouring under the assumption that having to choose between bad and worse is a meaningful choice. It is the illusion of choice that reflects a simple and universal truth - that you don't have the power or money to change your own fate.

Kinski

Zulu wrote: »

While I make a point of voting, there needs to be a "no candidate suitable", or similar option. I refuse to spoil my vote, but if I could check this box I would.

I want to cast minus votes. Like, that's -1 vote for Enda Kenny.:pac:

Kinski

JustinDee wrote: »

And you deserve what you have now.
Congrats.

Yes, things would be profoundly different if only instead of an FG/Labour coalition we'd had a Labour/FG one, or an FF/FG coalition, or an FF/Labour coalition, or an FG/SF coalition, or...

Eliot Rosewater

The idea that someone loses the right to criticize (or to bitch!) if they don't vote is based, from what I see, on the premise than an individual vote has the power to change the current situation. (Otherwise, why would them not voting matter?)

I think this a naive view of representative democracy. In my constituency (Cork North West) one FG member and one FF member are always returned with large margins. When I go into the booth my choice then comes down to who I want as the third representative. Parties other than FF and FG do terribly here, so the third will be either FF or FG. So this is the nature of my democratic empowerment: I get to choose whether the third of my three representatives in a 166-person chamber is FF or FG.

In this context, how can anyone really consider my vote to be enough of a big deal to justify considering my opinion negated because I abstain?


On the issue of spoiling ballots, this really is futile. The spoilt vote will only be seen by one of the counting clerks sorting the ballots. These people may not be even politically informed, and in any case they won't care in the slightest about the eccentricity of one elector. Again, promoting this line of action presupposes a greater degree of influence then we individual electors really have, imo.

The Corinthian

darkman2 wrote: »

This irritates me because I believe if you are well able to vote and don't you are defacto forfeiting your right of complaint.

Not exactly. Those who do not vote retain a right to complain, however they lose much if not all of the moral right to have that complaint respected.

I can understand the argument that one may not vote because there is no one to vote for, but other than the option to spoil one's vote (which I'll get to in a moment) the reality is that most who do not vote do not because they're not bothered to do so.

Voting requires going directly home after work to cue up to do so. Presuming you're even registered where you live, which many people don't bother doing or are away from because of work or study commitments. As such, most don't bother and that - and not some higher principle - is the real reason the vast majority abstain.

Kinski wrote: »

I've already addressed that. Spoiling your vote makes nothing clear - it's meaningless.

I disagree. A sufficient number of spoilt votes make the news, especially when directed towards a single 'candidate'. Indeed, when 'Dustin' gets more first preference votes than a candidate from an established party, the media and the political establishment take notice.

Such scenarios can either act as a catalyst for change in the established political parties or even encourage independent candidates or the formation of new political movements to take advantage of this dissatisfaction; which is far more effective than grumbling in your pint with your mates.

JustinDee

Kinski wrote: »

Yes, things would be profoundly different if only instead of an FG/Labour coalition we'd had a Labour/FG one, or an FF/FG coalition, or an FF/Labour coalition, or an FG/SF coalition, or...

Hey, I did my bit to effect change at election time.
If everyone else did, there would be far less incumbent fringe politics.

Typically sitting on one's hands or hammering away at a keyboard isn't really going to get any change here. Paddy is far too apathetic when it comes to this element of society.

Dannyboy83

Remember Catholic Emancipation?
Women's suffrage movement?
Apartheid South Africa?

As long as you contribute, you have a right to complain, doesn't matter if you vote or not.

The Multinational companies located here who contribute to our system have as much right to complain as the 'non-national' citizens who are not allowed to vote in General Elections, despite contributing to our system for years.

Someone who votes but doesn't contribute has less right to complain than someone who does contribute but doesn't vote, in my opinion.

For example, this lad could be voting till the cows come home and I would still feel repulsed:
http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/jobless-dad-of-eight-criticises-limerick-council-over-housing-549255.html


But yes of course, you are shooting yourself in the foot if you contribute and choose not to vote.

I'll be the first to say there is little in the way of choice in Ireland, and our political system is fairly prohibitive to newcomers (Fianna Fail couldn't even afford to run a candidate for the presidential election! LOL), but there is always a least worst option, and that is your duty in Irish democracy, choose the least worst option.

Cookie_Monster

(if I were still in Ireland) I'd still vote in referenda but see no reason to vote in elections any more. Every single one of them lie and cheat their way in and then only look after themselves and their party. There are no real options ever presented to the electorate who will go and make any kind of difference.

I also do not like the Irish voting system, where multiuple votes are effectivly allowed and some peoples votes can count more than others depend on the way they vote, nothing democratic about that at all.

leggo

But this is were forcing democracy into action comes into play. I agree with the poster above who says that voting without contributing almost nullifies your vote.

I hear excuses like the above and that's all I hear: an excuse not to get active. A success of recent times is that we now take our politicians to task for any small controversy, discrepancy or U-turn within a matter of hours. As a result, Fine Gael are going to pains to be seen as a transparent coalition-leader. I didn't vote FG, but I see this as a success of the Irish people nonetheless moreso than the party itself.

Look at the likes of Tunisia et al who last year realised the power was in their hands and forced democracy into action. Look how quickly they brought about change.

Yes, a politician's job is to do whatever it takes to get elected, to ultimately line their pockets and feed their families. It's down to US to make sure the only way they can do so is to keep them accountable for our best interests.*

That all means educating yourself, showing an active interest, contributing to the process.

The system isn't broken, the system is fine, the cracks appear when we are too lazy to use it for what we need.

*I have no problem with a politician being paid well, kept in office for decades and given a healthy state pension as long as they contribute heartily to mine and my country's well-being. In that case, they deserve it.

BarackPyjama

Eh? I don't get this thread. If you're a hard working citizen, pay your taxes and contribute to the system then you have every right to complain whether you're a voter or not.

"I hate this government."
"Oh yeah. Who did you vote for at the last election?"
"I didn't vote. I'm disillusioned at the lack of viable options."
"Well you can't really complain then, can you?"
"I'm paying €20k a year in taxes. Of course I can."

End of.

The Corinthian

"I hate this government."
"Oh yeah. Who did you vote for at the last election?"
"I didn't vote. I'm disillusioned at the lack of viable options."
"Why didn't you spoil your vote or do something else such as start a local campaign or even just write letters to politicians / the media?"
"I don't have the time"
"Well you can't really complain then, can you?"
"I'm paying €20k a year in taxes. Of course I can."

As I said earlier, of course you can complain, but if that's all you do then you're not going to be taken very seriously.

Border-Rat

darkman2 wrote: »

OK, just straight to the point. I hear alot of people and friends say they hate the government this that and the other but some of them who are the most virulent in their opposition say they did not vote when I asked them did they vote.

This irritates me because I believe if you are well able to vote and don't you are defacto forfeiting your right of complaint. I don't say the same for someone who spoiled their vote because at least they went to the trouble of spoiling a vote in protest or whatever. But those who sit at home, have easy access to a polling station, and are well able to get there to vote I think forfeit their right to complain. I don't even listen to them tbh.

A bit harsh? What do you reckon?

No. Voting in Europe today is akin to voting in the USSR. Those who enable the centrist status quo careerists are more guilty than abstentionists.

JustinDee

BarackPyjama wrote: »

Eh? I don't get this thread. If you're a hard working citizen, pay your taxes and contribute to the system then you have every right to complain whether you're a voter or not.

"I hate this government."
"Oh yeah. Who did you vote for at the last election?"
"I didn't vote. I'm disillusioned at the lack of viable options."
"Well you can't really complain then, can you?"
"I'm paying €20k a year in taxes. Of course I can."

End of.

How very . . . Irish.

Cookie_Monster

JustinDee wrote: »

How very . . . Irish.

why do you say that?

Over here (NZ) lots and lots of newspaper pieces (and generally public opinion) is that rate payers get their say. There's huge backlash against the elected council here in New Plymouth about them not listening to people wishes in their long term plan. Yeah they were elected by the same rate payers and citizens but are now not doing something that people are happy with and there's plenty of protest and opinion of entitlement to a say if your pay rates.

JustinDee

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

why do you say that?

Over here (NZ) lots and lots of newspaper pieces (and generally public opinion) is that rate payers get their say. There's huge backlash against the elected council here in New Plymouth about them not listening to people wishes in their long term plan. Yeah they were elected by the same rate payers and citizens but are now not doing something that people are happy with and there's plenty of protest and opinion of entitlement to a say if your pay rates.

So this silent protest gone great guns then? A massive backlash of erm...not voting?
Fentestuc

Hayte

You are still assuming that voting is actually a meaningful choice that produces a meaningfully different outcome depending on who you vote for. It isn't and it doesn't. Not in this country at this moment in time anyway.

The Corinthian

Hayte wrote: »

You are still assuming that voting is actually a meaningful choice that produces a meaningfully different outcome depending on who you vote for. It isn't and it doesn't. Not in this country at this moment in time anyway.

If that is so, does that preclude one from all other courses of action?

Other than complaining, of course.

Cognitive Cascade

People here complain of the politics and policies in other countries all the time without obviously voting, do they have the "right to complain"?

Anyway it depends on what reasons you had for not voting.

fianna saor

imo i think should be fined for not voting, if they want to go to the polling station and spoil their vote by all means but if they just dont bother their arse fine them....

Cookie_Monster

fianna saor wrote: »

imo i think should be fined for not voting, if they want to go to the polling station and spoil their vote by all means but if they just dont bother their arse fine them....

what about those in college etc away from their constituancy, or in hospital or disabled who cannot get to a polling station etc?

nua domhan

I don't complain about Man Utd because i'm not a Man Utd fan. I don't buy their gear, watch their matches or subscribe to their website etc. I don't contribute therefore I don't feel i have the right to complain about them if they loose the league. I could, but why would anyone take me or my opinion seriously when i'm just a bystander watching what's going on?

If I was a paid up member, went to games, bought jerseys and spent my time, energy and money contributing in some way to them then yeah, I would have the right to complain when they were being ****.

Same principle.

JustinDee

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

what about those in college etc away from their constituancy?

If they are in college or away from their constituency, they change constituency and address.
This means that said student, however, might have to get out of bed before 1pm to do this though.

Run_to_da_hills

Not sure how to vote in the forthcoming referendum?

Let this objective, dispassionate video be your guide!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZfzAOooEOU

fianna saor

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

what about those in college etc away from their constituancy, or in hospital or disabled who cannot get to a polling station etc?

ok fair point....... maybe some sort of swipe card for voting where you can vote in any polling station if you happen to be elsewhere

melekalikimaka

i think you have every right to complain even if you dont vote. ybh i think alot of people shouldnt be allowed vote, all these treaty votes with fools voting no based on ignorance and lack of understanding "it wasnr spelt out for me by the government so i'm jst going to vote no', completely distorts the voting. if i feel no one is suitable i will not vote, and i will complain all i want about it after

RichardAnd

melekalikimaka wrote: »

i think you have every right to complain even if you dont vote. ybh i think alot of people shouldnt be allowed vote, all these treaty votes with fools voting no based on ignorance and lack of understanding "it wasnr spelt out for me by the government so i'm jst going to vote no', completely distorts the voting. if i feel no one is suitable i will not vote, and i will complain all i want about it after

There are plenty of "fools" voting yes for precisely the same reasons. I've seen plenty of hyperbolic nonsense treated as hard fact over the past few weeks.