Heineken Cup lessons/opportunities for IRFU

redmca2

This topic could fit in many of the current threads, but I thought it worth opening a new one.

We now find ourselves in the unique situation of having 4 HC qualified teams again next season. Surely this affords the IRFU or Irish rubgy a golden opportunity to field 4 good teams - what I mean by that is to stop bleeding Connacht of virtually all their best players at the end of every season and rather beef them up for next.

With all due respect to Leinster, who at Rabo12 level can field amost 2 complete teams, wouldn't it be better for Irish rugby if players like Conway, Carr, Hagan, maybe 1 or 2 back rowers etc got HC exposure with Connacht rather than bit parts with Leinster?

And I'm not going to go into the issue of the national coach versus the provincial ones ..... I'll leave that to others

Quick question re: Carr, Conway etc.

Do you think that their development has been good at Leinster? Do you think that they have progressed as a result, or in spite of the opportunities at Leinster?

If you think that they are progressing, and they think that they are progressing, and they feel that they are part of the overall picture of a winning team, why on earth would they themselves choose to move out of the setup that is clearly a benefit to them? Picking up "cheap HEC caps" at a cost to your career path seems like a pretty empty way of looking at the game as a whole.

I do agree that the HEC is a step up from Rabo12, but is simply dropping a player into a HEC game worth as much to him as good coaching in a good team? It's hard to find the balance, but I don't think that playing HEC rugby immediately means you are a better player than you were the week before.

JustinDee

redmca2 wrote: »

This topic could fit in many of the current threads, but I thought it worth opening a new one.

We now find ourselves in the unique situation of having 4 HC qualified teams again next season. Surely this affords the IRFU or Irish rubgy a golden opportunity to field 4 good teams - what I mean by that is to stop bleeding Connacht of virtually all their best players at the end of every season and rather beef them up for next.

With all due respect to Leinster, who at Rabo12 level can field amost 2 complete teams, wouldn't it be better for Irish rugby if players like Conway, Carr, Hagan, maybe 1 or 2 back rowers etc got HC exposure with Connacht rather than bit parts with Leinster?

And I'm not going to go into the issue of the national coach versus the provincial ones ..... I'll leave that to others

If a player wants to move to a different province or even further afield, there is nothing anyone can do about it. Not the branch. Not the union.

Teferi

JustinDee wrote: »

If a player wants to move to a different province or even further afield, there is nothing anyone can do about it. Not the branch. Not the union.

Yep. Always think it's mad this idea of Connacht being bled dry. If your being asked to move to a better team 9 times out of 10 you will make that move. No harm in being ambitious.

Arguably someone like Carr done exactly what he wanted to do at Connacht - made a good show of himself so as to get picked up by Leinster.

phog

JustinDee wrote: »

If a player wants to move to a different province or even further afield, there is nothing anyone can do about it. Not the branch. Not the union.

Well they could stop a province from signing a player, they cant stop a player from leaving one though.

d-gal

Teferi wrote: »

JustinDee wrote: »

If a player wants to move to a different province or even further afield, there is nothing anyone can do about it. Not the branch. Not the union.

Yep. Always think it's mad this idea of Connacht being bled dry. If your being asked to move to a better team 9 times out of 10 you will make that move. No harm in being ambitious.

Arguably someone like Carr done exactly what he wanted to do at Connacht - made a good show of himself so as to get picked up by Leinster.

True but personally don't think Carr is good for Leinster but would have been so valuable for Connacht. Conway has been plagued by injury so unfair to say to Connacht for a year etc.
Overall for development there are so many players that should have been farmed out to Connacht. Nagle is the prime example of a career that has been wasted so far & the IRFU should be having a word in the ears of players of his ability. There was no hope of him getting ahead of POC, DOC, Ryan and even MOD over the last couple of years.
Not everyone wants to go to Connacht but the carrot of HC rugby exposure should be more than enough.
You would definitely back an Irish team winning it next year again. Add Payne/Bowe to Ulster, Leinster are unstoppable and Munster another year of squad development. I'd be confident of connacht getting a 3rd year in a row

CatFromHue

redmca2 wrote: »

We now find ourselves in the unique situation of having 4 HC qualified teams again next season. Surely this affords the IRFU or Irish rubgy a golden opportunity to field 4 good teams - what I mean by that is to stop bleeding Connacht of virtually all their best players at the end of every season and rather beef them up for next.

Connacht didn't qualify for this years HEC until the very end of May long after contracts for this year would have been arranged. The 4 players who left did so not knowing about Connacht getting into the HEC and so left for more competitive rugby with better coaches.

What player of note is leaving this season?

its_phil

Seriously what is with the invasion of Connacht fans looking for fights with the Irfu on Boards about?

Macy0161

redmca2 wrote: »

With all due respect to Leinster, who at Rabo12 level can field amost 2 complete teams, wouldn't it be better for Irish rugby if players like Conway, Carr, Hagan, maybe 1 or 2 back rowers etc got HC exposure with Connacht rather than bit parts with Leinster?

I said in another thread, they're missing a trick in not sending older players back there too. Much like Connacht are attempting to do with bringing in the experienced Parks next season, the IRFU should be pushing experienced players that have dropped out of the first teams in the other provinces to Connacht.

Given O'Leary leaving, it may not now be as relevant as it might've been, but Stringer would've been an example of a player that could potentially really bring Connacht on, whereas he's been stuck as third choice for Munster.

JustinDee

Macy0161 wrote: »

I said in another thread, they're missing a trick in not sending older players back there too. Much like Connacht are attempting to do with bringing in the experienced Parks next season, the IRFU should be pushing experienced players that have dropped out of the first teams in the other provinces to Connacht

Nobody can force a player anywhere.
If they don't want to play in Galway, they simply won't go.

Macy0161

JustinDee wrote: »

Nobody can force a player anywhere.
If they don't want to play in Galway, they simply won't go.

Any evidence they are even making the suggestion?

CatFromHue

Macy0161 wrote: »

Any evidence they are even making the suggestion?

Faloon, and Nathan White might be an indication there is something going on.

JustinDee

Macy0161 wrote: »

Any evidence they are even making the suggestion?

Connacht fans saying that players should be made go to play for Connacht are making the suggestion. Nobody else.

touts

Macy0161 wrote: »

I said in another thread, they're missing a trick in not sending older players back there too. Much like Connacht are attempting to do with bringing in the experienced Parks next season, the IRFU should be pushing experienced players that have dropped out of the first teams in the other provinces to Connacht.

Given O'Leary leaving, it may not now be as relevant as it might've been, but Stringer would've been an example of a player that could potentially really bring Connacht on, whereas he's been stuck as third choice for Munster.

Yea that was definately a missed opportunity. I would put Mick O'Driscoll and D'Arcy in that category this year. It would be great to see them go to Connacht for a year as the experienced old heads but it looks like those boats have sailed even before Connacht's place in the HEC was confirmed.

rainbowdash

I think Leinster could support 2 teams at this stage, one based around Lansdowne road catering for the traditional support base, another based out in the suburbs catering for people from the other Leinster counties and newer parts of Dublin.

Am I right in saying the IRFU have a landbank out near Newlands cross?

JustinDee

rainbowdash wrote: »

I think Leinster could support 2 teams at this stage, one based around Lansdowne road catering for the traditional support base, another based out in the suburbs catering for people from the other Leinster counties and newer parts of Dublin.

Am I right in saying the IRFU have a landbank out near Newlands cross?

They are a provincial side. Not a club. There's only province.
No need for another ground either. Dublin is the easiest location on the island to get to.

rainbowdash

JustinDee wrote: »

They are a provincial side. Not a club. There's only province.
No need for another ground either. Dublin is the easiest location on the island to get to.

Yes but there is nothing to dictate that they need to remain as a province structure. There is probably enough support in the greater Dublin area to support 2 clubs at this stage.

The benefit being Ireland would have 5 teams with first team players instead of 4.

JustinDee

rainbowdash wrote: »

Yes but there is nothing to dictate that they need to remain as a province structure

Yes, there is and that is why the structure is as it is now. It is the working model that allows a professional stream of teams exist. They are branches of the union and it costs money to run each branch as well as the rest of the game at all levels.

You could go the other way as the ARU have done of course, following a disastrous professional club setup that lasted a year draining unnecessarily nearly A$5m then expanding further the state system with two franchises almost going bankrupt and lose players through a sieve.

redmca2

JustinDee wrote: »

Connacht fans saying that players should be made go to play for Connacht are making the suggestion. Nobody else.

Having started the thread I have to qualify my words by saying that I am NOT a Connacht fan, and am simply looking to maximise the exposure of our limited pool if Irish players to good competition.

Apologies that I am obviously incorrect in assuming that the IRFU has some influence in the movement of players within the provinces. I thought they had.

What are guys like Rhys Ruddock gaining by being bit players in Leinster? Would an arrangemant to "loan" him and others out to Connacht not be beneficial all round, with the guarantee that they could revert to Leinster after a season?

ray jay

rainbowdash wrote: »

Yes but there is nothing to dictate that they need to remain as a province structure. There is probably enough support in the greater Dublin area to support 2 clubs at this stage.

The benefit being Ireland would have 5 teams with first team players instead of 4.

What's the point, it would just lead to there being two development teams instead of one. It's not like dozens of players are banging on Connacht's door to get some game time.

freyners

speaking as a connacht fan, I would rather players move to connacht for their own reasons rather than being forced by the IRFU, carrot works infinately more than a stick. I cannot personally fault any player who chooses to tough it out at the other provinces even if it is fustrating

Realistically we have quite a number of players that are HC class in the likes of Wilko, muldoon and macca to name but a few with quality players like white and parks coming in, there are some positions of glaring weaknesses but, bar leinster, this is the same for other provinces in Ireland. Last year we lost core players fair enough but, so far, this hasnt happened again. We have steadyed the ship and are in a position to finish the highest we have been.

Now we could get into arguements over funding, refs and other personal bugbears but thats another fight for another thread

rainbowdash

ray jay wrote: »

What's the point, it would just lead to there being two development teams instead of one. It's not like dozens of players are banging on Connacht's door to get some game time.

A few years ago Connacht were almost closed down, now they are playing in the Heineken Cup 2 years in a row, a few years ago Edinburgh were considered a weak team, this year they came close to the final.

Support for rugby is growing, growing, growing, from a few hundred watching interpros in the 1990's, no reason not to consider a 5th Irish team if there is a market to support it.

Nobody envisaged a Thomond Park stadium with 30000 people in attendance when the first European game was played there.

If you build it they will come and all that.

CatFromHue

rainbowdash wrote: »

If you build it they will come and all that.

That isn't the case in Wales unfortunately though.

I am pie

rainbowdash wrote: »

A few years ago Connacht were almost closed down, now they are playing in the Heineken Cup 2 years in a row, a few years ago Edinburgh were considered a weak team, this year they came close to the final.

Support for rugby is growing, growing, growing, from a few hundred watching interpros in the 1990's, no reason not to consider a 5th Irish team if there is a market to support it.

Nobody envisaged a Thomond Park stadium with 30000 people in attendance when the first European game was played there.

If you build it they will come and all that.

Total lunacy if you ask me. You'd be asking fans to switch loyalty from leinster to leinster-part 2? Other than that you'd be looking for fans from outside the city to get interested in rugby based on supporting a newly cerated, fairly weak team...a team with no history ?...in an area with pretty average transport links? (i.e. anywhere outside of Dublin in Leinster.

Can't see how this is anything but madness.

death1234567

rainbowdash wrote: »

I think Leinster could support 2 teams at this stage, one based around Lansdowne road catering for the traditional support base, another based out in the suburbs catering for people from the other Leinster counties and newer parts of Dublin.

Worst.Idea.Ever.

Conas

The IRFU should really stick to controlling the finances, and the development of the game in this country. They have too much of a say in affairs relating to team selections (both club and country), player welfare and many other things. They should have faith in the people they employ, to that that very thing. As Roy Keane would say had he been a rugby player "some of them probaly couldn't spell rugby let alone understand it", yet their the same people who are having a say in serious matters relating to the Irish provincial and International setup. They should stick to what they know best, and let the people who have a rugby brain not a business brain run their team.

JustinDee

rainbowdash wrote: »

A few years ago Connacht were almost closed down, now they are playing in the Heineken Cup 2 years in a row, a few years ago Edinburgh were considered a weak team, this year they came close to the final.

Support for rugby is growing, growing, growing, from a few hundred watching interpros in the 1990's, no reason not to consider a 5th Irish team if there is a market to support it.

Nobody envisaged a Thomond Park stadium with 30000 people in attendance when the first European game was played there.

If you build it they will come and all that.

Why on earth would anyone split the Leinster support up?? There is enough of a market to support Leinster as it is. Dilute it and you have a poor business decision.

errlloyd

freyners wrote: »

Now we could get into arguements over funding, refs and other personal bugbears but thats another fight for another thread

From the IRFU's point of view Connacht is an emerging market. Although ticket sales will go the provinces, more people attending Connacht games will probably translate to more people attending Irish games. Realistically the IRFU isn't gonna make a huge amount more money off Leinster, Ulster or Munster then it already is. But Connacht at the moment makes them very little, but could be making them a fortune!!

As a Leinster fan I think its in the IRFU's interest to invest in Connacht on three fronts.

1: Bringing in players to make them competitive.
2: Promoting the club to make going to the games desirable.
3: Designing a sustainable, gradual, expansion programme for the sportsground.

Just to clarify that third one, I think the way we build stadiums is pretty stupid, surely some engineer can come up with a stadium design which is purposely designed to be built in pieces, so we increase the capacity by 1000 per year.

Macy0161

JustinDee wrote: »

Connacht fans saying that players should be made go to play for Connacht are making the suggestion. Nobody else.

I should also clarify, I'm not a Connacht fan, but see the advantages for the other provinces, and Ireland, of a system where players were encouraged to make such a move. They can't be made, but they should be encouraged or at least presented with the option. I can see why it might be of limited appeal to players approaching retirement, but it could work for younger players. If there was some kind of loan system for younger players, there could even be arrangements made for testing/ assessment from their "home" province to keep them in the loop for their long term progress, and the ability to recall players if an injury crisis took hold.

Players may not be up to it at the moment as the 3 other provinces don't want it, but maybe they could buy into such a system.

desertcircus

rainbowdash wrote: »

I think Leinster could support 2 teams at this stage, one based around Lansdowne road catering for the traditional support base, another based out in the suburbs catering for people from the other Leinster counties and newer parts of Dublin.

Am I right in saying the IRFU have a landbank out near Newlands cross?

Leinster probably could, but wouldn't. Nobody's going to want to watch West Leinster instead of sticking with the team they know and support. The only way this could work would be if there was a rival population base a decent distance from Dublin. There isn't one in Leinster.

redmca2

The idea of splitting Leinster is daft - might as well ask the Dubs to split into Fingal, Sth Dublin etc.

The idea of beefing up Connacht is a unique case in that we have 4 HC qualified teams again next season and may well have Connacht in again in years to come (not every year obviously).

Is there some fear among the other provinces that the emergence of a real force in the west could jeopardise one of the other provinces virtual automatic qualification for the HC each year? Currently my understanding is that the 3 highest Irish clubs/provinces in the Rabo12 qualify for the HC. Can anyone confirm?
Perish the thought of Connacht finishing in the top 3 in that contest !!!

Sandwlch

rainbowdash wrote: »

A few years ago Connacht were almost closed down, now they are playing in the Heineken Cup 2 years in a row

Kinda makes it sound like they have achieved something and are moving in the right direction. When in fact they are playing HC two years in a row through no action of their own.

freyners

Sandwlch wrote: »

Kinda makes it sound like they have achieved something and are moving in the right direction. When in fact they are playing HC two years in a row through no action of their own.

:rolleyes::rolleyes:

theres always once i guess

doubling supporters, potential highest ever finish despite a fourteen game losing run (above 3-4 teams who get automatic qualification) and enchanced facilities not achievements enough???

blackhound

I am a Connacht fan and like freyners already said I would not be in favour of players being forced to Connacht but if you look at the Irish world cup squad 4 of those players have played for Connacht and a further two players have since made the squad namely Mike McCarthy and Brett Wilkinson.

The point I'm making is that playing for Connacht can be a stepping stone to making the Ireland squad. this should be something that young players consider, if you're good enough, e.g Hagan, Carr (debatable I know ) and Cronin you will get back to one of the bigger provinces, if you're not were you ever going to break through in the first place?

If we look at Munster clearly they have an overabundance of locks, whereas Leinster have super talent/prospects in the backs surely a season long loan would be beneficial to all parties. Just my two cents worth.

errlloyd

blackhound wrote: »

If we look at Munster clearly they have an overabundance of locks, whereas Leinster have super talent/prospects in the backs surely a season long loan would be beneficial to all parties. Just my two cents worth.

Lol you hit the nail on the head there. Leinster can't even let some of their backs go to Munster, while Munster won't let their locks go to Leinster.

But in some ways its our dedication to our provinces that make us great. Its not coincidence that really good Irish players don't go abroad, they've been brought up on a diet of Leinster or Munster, and some of them will happily fight their way through academies to pull on the blue and red.

How many sports stars worldwide on the very top of their games like BOD, POC and indeed John Muldoon have given their entire careers to one club? John Muldoon arguably should have left Connacht for somewhere like Ulster years ago, but he's playing where he's always dreamt of playing, and fair ****ing play to him!!

If I had the talent to play pro rugby, I think I'd only wanna play it for Leinster.

totallegend

From Today's Irish Times.

gerry thornley wrote:

The Cup again runneth over for the IRFU too. Two Irish semi-final wins makes for a total of seven meritocracy payments from the ERC dividend, which at €450,000 equates to a €3.15 million return (and the Union budget for one payment). A third rental of the Aviva this season ensures an additional return of roughly €1.2 million.

Ker-ching.

totallegend

totallegend wrote: »

From Today's Irish Times.

Ker-ching.

Makes the €9m figure quoted elsewhere on here seem a bit preposterous don't you think?

JustinDee

totallegend wrote: »

From Today's Irish Times.



Ker-ching.

That figure of €450,000 is way off.
The ground hire-fee for the Aviva goes to the stadium company which is formed by both investors, FAI and IRFU. Not the IRFU.

totallegend

JustinDee wrote: »

That figure of €450,000 is way off.

It's not. You're wrong.

JustinDee wrote: »

The ground hire-fee for the Aviva goes to the stadium company which is formed by both investors, FAI and IRFU. Not the IRFU.

So the IRFU only gets €600,000? Nightmare.

errlloyd

JustinDee wrote: »

That figure of €450,000 is way off.
The ground hire-fee for the Aviva goes to the stadium company which is formed by both investors, FAI and IRFU. Not the IRFU.

That 450k is the reward you get for getting a team to a knockout stage. So you get 450 per team, per stage.

450k Munster Quarters
450k Ulster Quarters
450k Leinster Quarters
450k Ulster Semis
450k Leinster Semis
450k Ulster Final
+ 450k Leinster Final
_________________

3.150 mn

Thornley describes them as the "7 meritocracy payments" and says the IRFU only budgeted for one. So the IRFU only banked on one team making it out of the pool, and then possibly losing in the quarter. Which makes sense, Ulster and Munster were in very tough groups. And it wouldn't be a great idea for the union to bank that much on one of the teams winning a knockout game.

So essentially 2.7mn of that is unexpected profit.

In his article Thornley is only talking about money that goes to the IRFU, not to the clubs. I think it is worth a **** load to Leinster Ulster on top of that, they will get a chunk out of ticket sales, as well as increased merchandise sales, and prize money.

JustinDee

totallegend wrote: »

It's not. You're wrong

€240,000 is not €450,000.

totallegend

JustinDee wrote: »

€240,000 is not €450,000.

Source?

profitius

A fifth team could become reality sometime but not before all the teams strengthen.

JustinDee wrote: »

That figure of €450,000 is way off.
The ground hire-fee for the Aviva goes to the stadium company which is formed by both investors, FAI and IRFU. Not the IRFU.

So the FAI profits from rugby matches? I thought there was a clause built into the arrangement which said that the IRFU keeps all rugby profits?

connemara man

would the IRFU consider a swansong contract ie a one year contract in a struggling province at the minute Connacht for example (in years to come who knows what dips may occur) where players that are of international and HEc standard play with the developing team helping them and their younger players by empassing their years of experience i think its a missed trick at the moment and one that should be considered.

peterako

connemara man wrote: »

would the IRFU consider a swansong contract ie a one year contract in a struggling province at the minute Connacht for example (in years to come who knows what dips may occur) where players that are of international and HEc standard play with the developing team helping them and their younger players by empassing their years of experience i think its a missed trick at the moment and one that should be considered.

Not a bad suggestion at all!

Would need a lot of detailing and working out, but not a bad idea!

Podge_irl

connemara man wrote: »

would the IRFU consider a swansong contract ie a one year contract in a struggling province at the minute Connacht for example (in years to come who knows what dips may occur) where players that are of international and HEc standard play with the developing team helping them and their younger players by empassing their years of experience i think its a missed trick at the moment and one that should be considered.

Its a good idea, but to be fair a lot of players aren't going to want to finish their careers in Connacht. They're going to want to go out playing for Leinster/Munster/Ulster where they've spent their careers. Can't force them to move.

A fifth team could become reality sometime but not before all the teams strengthen.

Don't see how a fifth team could ever happen. There is just nowhere to put it

Sindri

A fifth team would split money and resources, it would be a drain on the IRFU and would amount to nothing. It's just not realistic.

Better off focusing on the development of Connacht.

Gordon Gecko

I think this talk of "beefing up" Connacht with young players still in or hardly out of the Academies is absurd. They're nowhere near their peak and are at a critical stage in their development where they will benefit from coaching and playing environments like Leinster and Munster. The standard being set by the likes of Nacewa and Sean O' Brien at Leinster could never be matched by Gavin Duffy and John Muldoon at Connacht.

The point about game exposure has been raised extensively. However has anyone considered that Leinster give their younger players excellent exposure in the RaboDirect given the quality of their squad. When these players do get exposure they're integrated with quality players and the fact that they're fighting for places and exposure gives each game, no matter who the opposition are, an enhanced competitive element.

Whereas realistically in Connacht they would be on losing teams almost every week and playing a poorer standard of rugby. I know how harsh this sounds on Connacht but I don't think even my harshest critics would disagree that Connacht rugby is a huge step down from the other 3 provinces.

The only way to improve rugby in Connacht is for the IRFU plough some of their enormous profits this year into schools and club rugby in the province. It's a hard ask to compete with GAA and soccer out West but persistent investment and generating interest in the game are the only way to develop Connacht into a province capable of consistently producing homegrown talents who want to play their rugby their.

I'd love to see Connacht blossom into a conpetitive province capable winning leagues and improving the national standard but there is no easy way to achieve this (like farming out young talent from other provinces), wise investment and hard work are the only way!

JustinDee

Gordon Gecko wrote: »

The only way to improve rugby in Connacht is for the IRFU plough some of their enormous profits this year into schools and club rugby in the province

See Newcastle and Sale for examples of "ploughing money" into schools. How great is the game going in those regions amongst the youth despite not only union investment but club investment?

As for the clubs, already a very large amount of money has already run its course through them. A small number have spent wisely. Others not so.

Blut2

Gordon Gecko wrote: »

I think this talk of "beefing up" Connacht with young players still in or hardly out of the Academies is absurd. They're nowhere near their peak and are at a critical stage in their development where they will benefit from coaching and playing environments like Leinster and Munster. The standard being set by the likes of Nacewa and Sean O' Brien at Leinster could never be matched by Gavin Duffy and John Muldoon at Connacht.

I'd agree with all that. I'd also point out the players regional preferences come in to play at that age especially. Most of the Leinster lads, for example, will have grown up in or around Dublin, gone to school there, have all their friends in college there, are probably in college themselves etc. When they'll be trading down coaching quality along with negatively impacting huge social aspects of their lives I can see why some would be reluctant to go out West.

hardybuck

• Andrew Conway
• Dave Kearney
• Eoin O'Malley
• Rhys Ruddock
• Dominic Ryan
• Ian Madigan

Munster

• Ivan Dineen
• Luke O'Dea
• Ian Nagle
• Tommy O'Donnell
• Sean Scanlon
• Paddy Butler

All the players above are potenially very good provincial players and some of them international material. The Leinster guys are probably at Heineken Cup standard at present but not really getting a look in. The Munster lads are definitely not at that level yet, but they could be ready to step up to that level with Connacht in 12 months if they qualify again.

At present none of the above are getting as many games as they would get at Connacht, and it must be hurting their development. Look at Wales. They seem to be able to start players in their late teens or early 20's in the Six Nations. We're putting guys in at 25 or 26 and still referring to them as young prospects. Something wrong there.