Minister asks RTE for an overview report on Saorview coverage in Cork

Antenna

MarkK wrote: »

More than €100 but €250 for connecting a second TVs as quoted in the article?
It makes it sound as if that is a set price.
For many people it will be a quick job with no drilling needed as they will be replacing or reusing existing cabling.

You can get a Saorsat box for €80 http://www.tvtrade.ie/xoro-hd-satellite-receiver.html.

The online prices do not include VAT and postage costs. and 99% of people are not DIYers who could manage a proper installation of Saorsat.

There might often not be much scope to use existing cables. TV aerials are often on the chimney.
But SAORSAT dish is best put somewhere else most of the time.


THere are other small expenses but which all add up. TVs might only have a single SCART socket - and that might already be used up by a DVD player etc - so often add on a SCART switcher device to the costs too.

MarkK wrote: »

Local relays are retransmitting the signal from a main transmitter.
Once the main transmitters shut down analogue, there is nothing to retransmit.

Most (not all) local analogue relays are. Some are doing so as it is by satellite so are independent of another transmitter.

A relay could take Saorview (or another digital source) STB and modulate an analogue signal at relays if they were going to continue after the parent transmitter switches analogue off.

Analogue cable TV systems and hotel systems made ready for ASO are already doing this with RTE1,2,TV3,Tg4

MarkK

Antenna wrote: »

A relay could take Saorview (or another digital source) STB and modulate an analogue signal at relays if they were going to continue after the parent transmitter switches analogue off.

You asked what the "big deal would be with extending analogue", that sounds like a big deal to me. If one of the STB boxes freezes they have to send someone out to fix it. It would probably cost a few thousand per site for a temporary solution.
Simpler to rebroadcast the Saorview muxes surely?

marno21

MarkK wrote: »

You asked what the "big deal would be with extending analogue", that sounds like a big deal to me. If one of the STB boxes freezes they have to send someone out to fix it. It would probably cost a few thousand per site for a temporary solution.
Simpler to rebroadcast the Saorview muxes surely?

One of the sites frequently discusses is the one at Timoleague, which is self help, and even if now managed by RTENL, it wouldn't be that hard to deputise someone locally to sort this problem if needed. There are no mobile providers on the mast and there is likely nothing more than rebroadcast equipment there.

That person could be trusted cause they're hardly going to be stealing Saorview boxes which wouldn't work for them at home anyway :P

lawhec

The problem with "extending" analogue from a few isolated sites for an extra bit of time like a year will be that inevitably, there will be due pressure to keep broadcasting these services for more than an initial stay of execution especially by refuseniks. Also almost all analogue relays are transposers - they don't demodulate and remodulate but rather shift an incoming signal to another part of the broadcast spectrum to be retransmitted on without demodulating what is received. Changing a site from transposing to actual transmitting would require at the very least some re-engineering of such relay sites which for the short term is unlikely to be worthwhile even though RTÉNL is likely to have the equipment available to do this.

Ultimately, the best way forward IMO is to have the local communities affected seek to set up self-help systems especially if it is reckoned that collectively Saorsat reception costs per household would match up to being the same as or more than the outlay for a self-help and its ongoing running costs, not to mention providing more programming choice (e.g. TV3) compared to Saorsat. It's technically feasible as it's already being done at some sites in the UK. A stay of execution for analogue TV in some places will only muddy things in the long term.

zg3409

MarkK wrote: »

You can get a Saorsat box for €80 http://www.tvtrade.ie/xoro-hd-satellite-receiver.html

There is only one Saorsat approved box (according to RTENL) and this is €180. Other boxes may show the picture but are not approved. Every user should have at least one approved box to ensure they can display all information sent.

In the future an approved Satellite only box should be launched (triax already demonstrated one). In the future an approved Sat only box could be easily less than 100 Euro.

Refer to the Saorsat thread for more details on approved boxes.

There are indeed cheaper boxes, like the one linked, but they are not approved. They are probably fine for 2nd or third rooms.

watty

The alleged Approved Saorsat box though is a stupid waste of money as it's a combo. It's a pointless product unless you watch Freeview & Saorsat in Ballymena.

Digifriendly

watty wrote: »

The alleged Approved Saorsat box though is a stupid waste of money as it's a combo. It's a pointless product unless you watch Freeview & Saorsat in Ballymena.

Much of Ballymena can receive RTE analogue so I would guess Saorview signals will reach there after DSO so no need for Saorsat. I have even seen an aerial for Clermont Carn as far north as Armoy!

Sponge Bob

Antenna wrote: »

The mast there (Leap) is also used for mobile phone operators so I cannot see RTENL decommissioning the mast!

Same on many masts, eg Cornamona Co. Galway. They are decommissioning analogue TV but not power or indeed the mast itself.

I do not see what the big deal would be with extending analogue for maybe a year or so in places like this is??

Because the masts are Deflectors( same Ch in and out) or Transposers (diff Ch in and out) and were never digitally fed. They need to see an analogue main transmitter to be fed a signal and they will close down soon.

The UHF channels of this relay are not in the Digital Dividend spectrum etc
It would give breathing space on the Saorsat issue.

But RTE knew this all along, Ryan and now Rabbitte simply don't care.

watty

Breathing space for what?

Nothing much will be different in 2014 than Oct 2012 as regards Digital. We have been waiting since 2000 for Digital and now we have had it nearly 2 years.

Saorsat is as ready as it's going to be. Since it's only for 2% to 4% of Irish market or less if you include people that only want UPC/Sky (maybe less than 5% of 20% as 82% have pay TV, thus maybe less than 1% of households), there are never going to be sensible Saorsat boxes. The market doesn't exist. For Saorsat a dual feed getting Freesat too and a "Freesat HD" box using "other channels" (4 out of 40) or the Software Plugin for Humax HDR makes most sense unless you really don't want 40+ decent UK channels out of 200 Free to air on a box that automatically tunes. It's a better solution than most non-approved Combos for Saorview + Freesat and a better solution than the one approved Saorview Combo (which doesn't do full Freesat Functionality).


While the coverage of Analogue and Saorview isn't the same there is far better coverage of Saorview. Also now unlike 2000, all the main UK channels are FTA/Free on satellite. So the original driver for "Deflectors", Cable, Giant masts and MMDS is gone.

The government have done nothing except delay DTT rollout and pay nothing. They will do nothing.

Antenna

zg3409 wrote: »

I contacted the journalist regarding the mistakes in the article and she has thanked me. I referred her to this thread.

There was an update in the Examiner on Thursday of last week to the Leap, Co. Cork report - Look at the the response about the disputed 250 euro cost quoted for a second Saorsat receiver for another room, where here only a suggested cost of the cabling is the response! This is going to be only a fraction of the cost of another Saorsat receiver.

Antenna

U-turn announced in the past day regarding Saorview or Saorsat in certain areas of West Cork - relays at Leap , Mt Gabriel, Drimoleague and Timoleague will now transmit Saorview - installed sometime before 24th October.

One wonders if any viewers had actually got Saorsat installed in the localities concerned before this U-turn only now to hear the much greater expense involved was in vain!

zg3409

Also what is the cost for this to RTENL both in terms of the initial install, any site rental contracts, mast upgrading/replacing and the ongoing cost for the next 20+ years of maintenance and spares etc.

It's a pity this debate was not held publicly and that some of the public information was actually incorrect.

RTENL/Saorview could have had someone at the local meetings and actually setup Saorsat and show people the options in reality.

Remember it is the TV licence payers that will ultimately pay. The locals could have paid for and campaigned for a self funded self help relay if they were that put out. Their main argument was cost, which now non Cork people will subsidise.

I wonder is Donegal next?

watty

The number of Sites for the size of Ireland is though very low. Nearly 1/2 some other countries. It's very much less than current number of Analogue sites.

Hence almost no portable coverage and very little indoor aerial coverage.

marno21

Antenna wrote: »

U-turn announced in the past day regarding Saorview or Saorsat in certain areas of West Cork - relays at Leap , Mt Gabriel, Drimoleague and Timoleague will now transmit Saorview - installed sometime before 24th October.

One wonders if any viewers had actually got Saorsat installed in the localities concerned before this U-turn only now to hear the much greater expense involved was in vain!

Rosscarbery too.

They've announced further relays in Clare, Waterford, and Donegal, which I've posted here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=79347122&postcount=12

evilivor

zg3409 wrote: »

I contacted the journalist regarding the mistakes in the article and she has thanked me. I referred her to this thread.

Another piece from her today

Saorview roll-out to reach West Cork
By Louise Roseingrave
Monday, June 25, 2012

Saorview’s digital roll-out has been extended to include pockets of patchy coverage in West Cork where five existing masts will be upgraded to broadcast the service.

Masts located at Bandon, Leap, Drimoleague, Timoleague, Ballydehob and Schull will be upgraded to facilitate the roll out, Saorview announced over the weekend.

The move was welcomed by local residents amid growing concerns over the analogue switch-off on Oct 24.

Once the upgrades are complete, the move will see 17 of the 64 national transmitters located in Cork.

Leap Community Council spokesman Pat O’Callaghan said residents were relieved to hear the local transmitter at Myross was earmarked for upgrade. Residents were facing costs of up to €350 as quoted from a local supplier in Skibbereen to install a Saorsat dish, which posed an aesthetic threat to the village, Mr O’Callaghan said.

"This is good news for the people, they are charmed with this announcement, they did not want these monstrous dishes protruding from their houses. But while it is good news for us, there will still be regional pockets that might not get Saorview. We would advocate that people are made fully aware of what’s to come with the switchover," he said.

West Cork residents were among 2% of households affected nationwide, including west Kerry, Dungarvan and parts of Connemara where access to the free-to-air DTT Saorview service will be limited.

12 of 55 existing Saorview transmitters are located in Cork, at Mullaghanish, Castletownbere, Bantry, Clonaklilty, Bandon, Kinsale, Spur Hill, Collins Barracks, Glanmire, Crosshaven, Fermoy and Mitchelstown.

Parts of Co Cork are covered by transmission sites in Counties Kerry, Clare and Waterford. Saorview is currently available in 96% of Cork homes and the service offers an improvement of terrestrial availability of RTÉ One and Two from approximately 90% to 96%.

Availability of TG4 will increase by 16% from 80% with Saorview while TV3 availability will increase by 33% from 63% to 96%, according to Saorview.

Some 108,000 households nationwide currently avail of the digital service.

swedex

Leap Community Council spokesman Pat O’Callaghan said residents were relieved to hear the local transmitter at Myross was earmarked for upgrade. Residents were facing costs of up to €350 as quoted from a local supplier in Skibbereen to install a Saorsat dish, which posed an aesthetic threat to the village, Mr O’Callaghan said.

"This is good news for the people, they are charmed with this announcement, they did not want these monstrous dishes protruding from their houses. But while it is good news for us, there will still be regional pockets that might not get Saorview. We would advocate that people are made fully aware of what’s to come with the switchover," he said.

There must be no "monstrous" dishes for freesat/sky in Leap, a quick look on Google street view would suggest otherwise. http://goo.gl/maps/Kqp6

marno21

There will be a Saorview/Saorsat problem discussion on Cork Today on 103FM in the morning.

I'd imagine that there will be less callers than previous discussions due to the new sites being added

Remaining sites in Cork not being upgraded: Crossbarry, Youghal B (Strand), Glenacarney, Fermoyle, Glandore, Killeagh, Blarney (not an issue due to Spur Hill power up), Fountainstown (SCTV SH), Belgooley (SCTV SH), Minane Bridge (SCTV SH), Marino Point, Dromore, Macroom, Ballingeary, Iniscleire, Dunmanway, Droumgarriffe, Inchigeelagh, Carrigadrohid, Araglin, Ballyandreen, Glanlea, Keiminagh, Lissycarrigane, Toomes Bridge.

26 sites in all.

Antenna

marno21 wrote: »

There will be a Saorview/Saorsat problem discussion on Cork Today on 103FM in the morning.

.

A recording of it available to listen here, Brian Geraghty of Saorview interviewed by the stand-in presenter John-Paul:

http://soundcloud.com/tvlopt/saorviewc103-19oct2012

marno21

Brilliant job Antenna, thanks

I've the whole show recorded but this saves me the bother of having to do some sifting

marno21

Not sure why there's people in Knocknagree and Ballydesmond complaining about switchover. I live in Ballydesmond and can pick up poor Saorview with nothing plugged into the back of the TV, and perfect Saorview with a bit of wire hanging out the back. All of this area is covered perfectly (LOS to Mullaghanish) and is green on Saorview. This should've been said instead of "get Saorsat".

formerly scottish paddy

marno21 wrote: »

Not sure why there's people in Knocknagree and Ballydesmond complaining about switchover. I live in Ballydesmond and can pick up poor Saorview with nothing plugged into the back of the TV, and perfect Saorview with a bit of wire hanging out the back. All of this area is covered perfectly (LOS to Mullaghanish) and is green on Saorview. This should've been said instead of "get Saorsat".

I think there is a lot of this going on, where you have people claiming they cannot get Saorview without even trying!

Sam Russell

formerly scottish paddy wrote: »

I think there is a lot of this going on, where you have people claiming they cannot get Saorview without even trying!

I think they are trying to get the Saor bit for free.

Antenna

The radio interview I mentioned in another post of last Monday (19th November) available to listen to here:

http://yourlisten.com/channel/content/16928414/Saorview_19_November_2012


Firstly an interview with FF Councillor Alan Coleman of the Bandon electoral area of Cork County council who speaks about continuing Saorview reception difficulties in places such as Ballinspittle etc, and who believes some of the government's (more than expected) 4G licence 'windfall' should be spent on further improving Saorview coverage.
And an interview with a viewer (or ex-viewer) in Ballinspittle who has had no reception since the 24th October. He had a not great, but watchable analogue reception, that is now gone, he cannot get Saorview at all.

And Brian Geraghty of Saorview also, the recent loss of RTE teletext by many viewers (with non-Saorview approved receivers) is another issue raised.

formerly scottish paddy

Antenna wrote: »

........... and who believes some of the government's (more than expected) 4G licence 'windfall' should be spent on further improving Saorview coverage.

This is a good point actually, the DSO and Saorview roll-out has cost the government nothing, (not even a help scheme, which there should have been!). The least they can do is pay for additional Saorview coverage.

St Senan

formerly scottish paddy wrote: »

This is a good point actually, the DSO and Saorview roll-out has cost the government nothing, (not even a help scheme, which there should have been!). The least they can do is pay for additional Saorview coverage.

+1
Its not as if Pat Rabbite and the Saorview team didn't know or were not asked. http://debates.oireachtas.ie/dail/2012/05/02/00040.asp
http://www.rdi-lb.co.uk/
http://www.helpscheme.co.uk/

Sam Russell

As they can now afford it, I think that they should pay the full cost of Saorview (€70m) to RTE NL and expect them to solve the local problems with reception. DCENR should also review the strictures they placed on RTE re RTE NN and RTE 1+1 so that we can get a funded news channel and RTE Plus. They could also allow the 2nd mux to start now TV3 and TG4 are ready for HD. They could also get OTV and the Irish Film channel to start.

lawhec

The state is still running a large budget deficit. I'd say they've more pressing things to worry about than to ring fence money from the sale of the 4G licences towards improving Saorview coverage, especially as the population coverage of Saorview in the Republic is now pretty much the same as that for the Freeview PSB multiplexes in Northern Ireland. If not better.

Sam Russell

lawhec wrote: »

The state is still running a large budget deficit. I'd say they've more pressing things to worry about than to ring fence money from the sale of the 4G licences towards improving Saorview coverage, especially as the population coverage of Saorview in the Republic is now pretty much the same as that for the Freeview PSB multiplexes in Northern Ireland. If not better.

I know that the state is broke, and not a tosser to spare. However, they can still waste huge sums on themselves.

There are raising significantly more than expected from the sale, so putting some into RTE NL would be right, and RTE NL could then be in a position to bid for some of the network infrastructure which would be a significant payback. Leaving RTE NL up to its neck in debt is not good business.