Is BJJ a team sport

EnjoyChoke

Like the title says, do you think that BJJ is an individual or team sport.

Stephen_King

Both really. I'd think it would be hard to train to a high level without being part of a good team, but competition boils down to individual performance.

cambridge

Obviously the archetypal team sports are rugby and soccer and other footballs. They involve people playing in different positions, with specific roles associated with those positions, and require cooperation and team work to achieve a set of goals.

Obviously sports like bjj, boxing, wrestling, mma are completely different.

However, what separates these sports from (imo) archetypal individual sports like golf, snooker, darts, weightlifting is the necessity of a team structure in training.

While all sports (and most endeavours in general) benefit hugely from support network, friendships, rivalry, coaching, being pushed, being enlightened, being encouraged etc. they are absolute requirements in bjj.

The team is composed of the coach (or coaches), senior students, junior students and people on your own level. Training involves intermixing of the three different groups, development is based on learning new things from better people and practising new things on worse people and fine-tuning things on people of your own level.

Without white belts biting at your feet, and purple belts mauling you in every position, it's hard for a blue belt to develop. For your guard passing to get better, you need to train with guys with good and varied guards. The better you get at passing, the better they get at guarding, hopefully a cat and mouse cycle develops of mutual progression.

I think in BJJ more so than boxing in my experience encourages that bit of co-operation and mutual growth. In bjj you say to yourself, i'm really bad at escaping this or that, you find someone in your team (or coach) and find out from them how it works. then you find a guy in your team who is really good at stopping people from escaping and you try and work on that.

Of course, at the end of the day you walk out onto the mat on your own, you may be wearing a logo or a badge from your team but all the team work is done BEFORE the match, not during.

SBG Ireland

yes

Barry.Oglesby

You'd have fierce trouble training alone.

Chris89

100%

Lets see what all the lads who dont like closing out divisions have to say for themselves.

Kieran81

Chris89 wrote: »

100%

Lets see what all the lads who dont like closing out divisions have to say for themselves.

i'm not a fan of closing divisions at all , but my answer is bjj is absolutely a team sport , still dont see why teammates cant go at it in a competition though

Chris89

Kieran81 wrote: »

i'm not a fan of closing divisions at all , but my answer is bjj is absolutely a team sport , still dont see why teammates cant go at it in a competition though

cambridge

Chris89 wrote: »

100%

Lets see what all the lads who dont like closing out divisions have to say for themselves.

Is Bjj a team sport?
Yes

Why do bjj lads close out divisions?
Bromance

EnjoyChoke

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

You'd have fierce trouble training alone.

You can have training partners that aren't team-mates.

Clive

Yes and no, it really depends on how you define a team sport.

To me, BJJ is not a team sport, simply because you compete individually.

Doubles tennis is a team sport, singles tennis is not - even though the support structures and "team" behind the athletes could be virtually identical.

Is there a necessity to have good training partners and coaches? Yes of course. Is a strong team spirit and camaraderie engendered in BJJ, yes of course. You are literally putting your safety in someone's hands at every training session, and asking them to do the same. Complementary and clashing styles, different body types, different skill levels and physical abilities are all vital for someone who wants to compete. Very strong bonds of respect are formed.

In BJJ, "team" is used to encompass everything. It can mean the club you train at, several local clubs under the same instructor, or a worldwide association under the same umbrella, which muddies the waters.

To me "team sport" and "individual sport" are pretty straightforward terms, a layman should be able to look at an event and identify which is which. If people want to attach a deeper meaning then fair enough. I don't consider judo, wrestling, taekwondo, fencing etc. team sports either.

Kieran81

Chris89 wrote: »

two guys from the same team reach a final , they've beaten all the rest ,their team is the only one left in the competition ,the team has now shown that they are the best in it , how does two lads having/not having a finals match change that , the only thing it does is leave a question mark over the one who gets a gold

arybvtcw0eolkf

Of course it can be a team sport, just like any other competitive combat sport/style can be a team sport.

Your club gather's together a team, you fight as a team against other teams. The team with the majority of wins takes the cup.

Regardless who win's or looses in the team its a team win or loss, there are no individual winners or losers - simple as.

darced

This post has been deleted.

EnjoyChoke

"Brazillian Jiu-Jitsu players are like chess pieces and in chess the pawns protect the King." - Royler Gracie.

pablohoney87

EnjoyChoke wrote: »

"Brazillian Jiu-Jitsu players are like chess pieces and in chess the pawns protect the King." - Royler Gracie.

Brilliant quote but in what context are you using it? My mind is racing bout the different scenarios

Barry.Oglesby

The next time Guilherme is in trouble he should bring on Rafa as a sub.

RJJIreland

cambridge wrote: »

Why do bjj lads close out divisions?
Bromance

closing out divisions is about money and the rules.

you don't get paid to compete in the majority of bjj competitions so MOST teammates won't fight each other when there is nothing at stake other than the prize of a crappy medal. especially considering closing out brackets is NOT against the rules.

any circumstance in which the event is professional, i.e. the competitors get paid. team mates will always, and have always fought. because it is AGAINST the rules to close out and there is pay at stake.

cambridge

RJJIreland wrote: »

closing out divisions is about money and the rules.

you don't get paid to compete in the majority of bjj competitions so MOST teammates won't fight each other when there is nothing at stake other than the prize of a crappy medal. especially considering closing out brackets is NOT against the rules.

any circumstance in which the event is professional, i.e. the competitors get paid. team mates will always, and have always fought. because it is AGAINST the rules to close out and there is pay at stake.

I absolutely agree with you on everything you've said.

But imagine Bjj was in the olympics, no money for a gold medal, would you get people closing out divisions too, as in a world championships.

world championships being decided on a gentleman's agreement beforehand is fairly despicable in my opinion.

Barry.Oglesby

Just thinking that I probably wouldn't pick JT Torres on my first team but I'd probably keep him back as an impact sub late in the match.

I agree with Clive by the way. You train with a team and this is very important, but the sport itself is individual.

I think by the way, that something that's missing is a high level BJJ matchplay championship. Y'know, maybe one competitor at every weight, Alliance vs. Atos, GB vs Checkmat. Winning team advance and so on. That would be a team sport.

Chris89

cambridge wrote: »

But imagine Bjj was in the olympics, no money for a gold medal, would you get people closing out divisions too, as in a world championships.

Its not though, and it probably never will be, so i guess we will never know.

RJJIreland

cambridge wrote: »

But imagine Bjj was in the olympics, no money for a gold medal, would you get people closing out divisions too, as in a world championships.

Are you allowed close out divisions in the olympics?

If you are, then i'm sure it would happen. If you aren't, then it wouldn't.

slammer187

Yea it's a team sport

cowzerp

EnjoyChoke wrote: »

Like the title says, do you think that BJJ is an individual or team sport.

Good question but in reality neither answer is wrong-It is both an individual sport and a team sport, just depends what way you look at it.

SDTimeout

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

Just thinking that I probably wouldn't pick JT Torres on my first team but I'd probably keep him back as an impact sub late in the match.

I agree with Clive by the way. You train with a team and this is very important, but the sport itself is individual.

I think by the way, that something that's missing is a high level BJJ matchplay championship. Y'know, maybe one competitor at every weight, Alliance vs. Atos, GB vs Checkmat. Winning team advance and so on. That would be a team sport.

After the next Grapplepalooza Barry you should put all the money in a suitcase to America. That sounds like a really good idea.

Barry.Oglesby

SDTimeout wrote: »

After the next Grapplepalooza Barry you should put all the money in a suitcase to America. That sounds like a really good idea.

Suitcase? More like miniature envelope.

Spideog Rua

Yes, it’s a team sport.

Let’s say you have 100 matches in competition a year. That’s fifteen hours of competition at most or about one percent of a black belt World champions training time.

Ninety nine percent of the time spent doing Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is spent drilling, sparring and working techniques. All of this time is spent with your training partners, team-mates and coaches. You are nothing without your team.

As to the comment above regarding an Olympic gold medal. Please don’t fool yourself into thinking that a gold medal isn’t worth anything. An Olympic gold medal can be worth hundreds of thousands of euro/dollar/pounds and billions of yen in endorsements, sponsorships and the rest of the opportunities it brings to your doorstep.

cowzerp

Spideog Rua wrote: »

Yes, it’s a team sport.

Let’s say you have 100 matches in competition a year. That’s fifteen hours of competition at most or about one percent of a black belt World champions training time.

Ninety nine percent of the time spent doing Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is spent drilling, sparring and working techniques. All of this time is spent with your training partners, team-mates and coaches. You are nothing without your team.

Same could be said for most individual sports, Boxers need sparring partners, Coaches, Cuts men and they also spend far far more time training than competing as do most sports people.

Dermighty

I never really got why people don't compete in finals if they're on the same team. People tossing coins or doing rock, paper, scissors for a medal is stupid.

I can relate to comraderie and sportsmanship but seeing as rolling is such an intrinsic part of bjj classes then the opportunity to fight someone on your team shouldn't even come into question, just fight and whoever wins wins, it's not like most people that win buy a fur coat and pimp hat and wear the medal to bed :P

TKD SC

Dermighty wrote: »

I never really got why people don't compete in finals if they're on the same team. People tossing coins or doing rock, paper, scissors for a medal is stupid.

I can relate to comraderie and sportsmanship but seeing as rolling is such an intrinsic part of bjj classes then the opportunity to fight someone on your team shouldn't even come into question, just fight and whoever wins wins, it's not like most people that win buy a fur coat and pimp hat and wear the medal to bed :P

Yeh, I agree - I've fought team mates before in TKD competitions and never saw any issue with it. You spar / roll with them each week anyway, so why not compete if it happens in that way? No big deal.

Re the indiv sports - as Paul mentions, what about boxing? You could start throwing loads of "individual" sports into the mix - boxing, bjj, judo, tkd, singles tennis, golf, various track and field events etc etc. I would say they are all similar in that yes most of their time is spent with team mates etc and can't do much on their own etc, but I'd still call their sport individual as at the time of competing it is just them in the ring, on the court, on the track etc. No team members with them out there (though they may be close by shouting). It's an individual sport at time of playing - one against one, or one against many (golf, athletics).

The odd thing can turn an individual sport into a team event - like team sparring (yet each fight is still individual) and ryder cup events in golf. But for the most part, I'd say bjj is an individual sport. Yes, huge back-up from your club / team mates etc, but it's not soccer with 10 other guys against another team on the mats. Think you could argue from different angles all day, but bit of an odd question anyway! What difference does it make??

Simon

Marcus.phelan

really?? we now have a tkd guy telling us bjj is an individual sport...

Clive

Does that make the argument less valid?

TKD SC

Marcus.phelan wrote: »

really?? we now have a tkd guy telling us bjj is an individual sport...

Yes really

Not sure why I can't tell you, plus good argument there against any points I made!!

btw, while still crap at it, I've done about 2yrs of BJJ on and off, so there!!

Barry.Oglesby

Marcus.phelan wrote: »

really?? we now have a tkd guy telling us bjj is an individual sport...

Well tkd is a sport on the Olympic level...

Chris89

Football is a team sport, played at the olympic level. Ill get onto robbie keane on twitter and ask him if bjj is a team sport.... assume thats cool with you guys as training in a different area seems to be the necessary criteria to discuss this topic.

ill keep you posted.

Chris89

Clive wrote: »

Does that make the argument less valid?

of course it does? I have no experience training and competing as part of a tkd team so i feel my opinion on the matter is beyond invalid.

Doug Cartel

Guys if you have an issue with someone's argument, can you try and address the argument directly.

Chris89

@robbiekeane - i think its an individual sport and i once took a peno on shay given, I have no problem playing against teammates and we have to do it regularly. It disgusted me watching the world pro jiu jitsu cup to see buchecha close out the final with his teammate Antonio Carlos Jr. I mean thats just not what we want to see.

Chris89

Doug Cartel wrote: »

Guys if you have an issue with someone's argument, can you try and address the argument directly.

If this was directed at me; the point i am trying to make is that an opinion on something you do not fully understand should not be given much weight. The same lads get on the 'thanks' wagon every time.

I dont talk about MMA or TKD or any other sport where i would be out of my depth. And I dont pretend like I know better than the guys who compete at the top level on an international stage. (if the top black belts dont mind closing out divisions, then neither should you)

Me and my mates have essentially dedicated our lives to being part of a bjj 'team, with the view of helping each other progress as quickly and as far as possible. When someone who trains once or twice a week (or not at all) tells me that this isnt a team sport and i should have no problem fighting my teammate.... well you know the rest.:)

Dyr

Perhaps bjj is more of a team activity rather than a team sport

Thread need poll anyway.

Chris89

Bambi wrote: »

Perhaps bjj is more of a team activity rather than a team sport

Thread need poll anyway.

Ideally people will just take my word for it.

Doug Cartel

Chris89 wrote: »

If this was directed at me; the point i am trying to make is that an opinion on something you do not fully understand should not be given much weight.

The comment was partially aimed at you, but really it's a reminder for everybody. Threads go nowhere when this kind of thing happens.

If all you can say is that the people who don't share your opinion just don't understand, then don't expect to make any progress discussing the subject with them.

I guess it boils down to if you want to have a discussion or a circle-jerk.

TKD SC

Chris89 wrote: »

Me and my mates have essentially dedicated our lives to being part of a bjj 'team, with the view of helping each other progress as quickly and as far as possible. When someone who trains once or twice a week (or not at all) tells me that this isnt a team sport and i should have no problem fighting my teammate.... well you know the rest.:)

Well, I haven't dedicated my life to say football so I guess I'm not entitled to say that is a team sport. Maybe it's an individual sport and I never knew..

Agree, a poll is needed!

Barry.Oglesby

Chris89 wrote: »

If this was directed at me; the point i am trying to make is that an opinion on something you do not fully understand should not be given much weight. The same lads get on the 'thanks' wagon every time.

I dont talk about MMA or TKD or any other sport where i would be out of my depth. And I dont pretend like I know better than the guys who compete at the top level on an international stage. (if the top black belts dont mind closing out divisions, then neither should you)

Me and my mates have essentially dedicated our lives to being part of a bjj 'team, with the view of helping each other progress as quickly and as far as possible. When someone who trains once or twice a week (or not at all) tells me that this isnt a team sport and i should have no problem fighting my teammate.... well you know the rest.:)

So your central treatise is that because you play the sport very regularly, your opinion on whether one man fighting another man constitutes a team sport is more valid than others. I don't doubt you have a good team ethic as a lot of teams do, but if we're talking about whether the event , not the whole gamut, is a team sport or not, the answer is, and cannot be other than, no. One man, performing an act alone, cannot be a team.

Athletics clubs have very tight bonds among runners, but I don't think anyone would argue for the 1500m being a team sport.

As for your argument that all who train will agree, I do this sport quite a bit and I still disagree with you. I doubt I'm alone.

This is fast overtaking the obesity thread in the "oddest things to talk about" stakes.

Clive

Chris89 wrote: »

of course it does? I have no experience training and competing as part of a tkd team so i feel my opinion on the matter is beyond invalid.

Well you just stated in your previous post that football was a team sport. If I was to say that it was an individual sport would you be wrong because I've played more football?

Team sport and individual sport are commonly used terms in the English language, except when it comes to BJJ apparently.

Chris89

Clive wrote: »

Chris89 wrote: »

of course it does? I have no experience training and competing as part of a tkd team so i feel my opinion on the matter is beyond invalid.

Well you just stated in your previous post that football was a team sport. If I was to say that it was an individual sport would you be wrong because I've played more football?

Team sport and individual sport are commonly used terms in the English language, except when it comes to BJJ apparently.

The issue is that I obviously have a different use of the term team sport. I understand it is not a theme sport in a literal sense. I hope we all do, or else this thread is a bit pointless.

Doug Cartel

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

This is fast overtaking the obesity thread in the "oddest things to talk about" stakes.

Link please?

Chris89

I suppose another point to consider is that in a lot of the individual sports mentioned like athletics and other skill sports can essentially be trained alone to some degree.

I think the difference with martial arts and sports jiu jistu is that you must train with a variety of people in order to be successful in competition. And I think that's why a lot of people involved in an environment like this will think of it as a team sport. Figuratively, obviously.

Barry.Oglesby

Doug Cartel wrote: »

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

This is fast overtaking the obesity thread in the "oddest things to talk about" stakes.

Link please?

Dear god no.

cowzerp

Chris89 wrote: »

I think the difference with martial arts and sports jiu jistu is that you must train with a variety of people in order to be successful in competition. And I think that's why a lot of people involved in an environment like this will think of it as a team sport. Figuratively, obviously.

Boxing, TKD, Mma, fencing, all individual sports yet you need a team for practise

Chris89

cowzerp wrote: »

Chris89 wrote: »

I think the difference with martial arts and sports jiu jistu is that you must train with a variety of people in order to be successful in competition. And I think that's why a lot of people involved in an environment like this will think of it as a team sport. Figuratively, obviously.

Boxing, TKD, Mma, fencing, all individual sports yet you need a team for practise

Yes, that's what I said.