Turtle Boy

PlainP

http://www.channel4.com/programmes/bodyshock/4od

I watched this documentary last night. I found it very sad that the mother of this child thought that god had made her little boy like this.

She was very upset, her family said that it was because she had witnessed an eclipse while pregnant that her son was disfigured.

Now why am I posting you might ask?

She said god had made her child like that yet she continually prays, reads the bible and ultimately believed that a miracle would occur and god would make her child better.

Why if you believed that god had done this to your child would you continue to believe in him. It baffles me that people have this blind faith when in their own words their god had done this awful thing to their child.

The scientific evidence supporting this genetic condition and the doctors who work on the children who have it, for me is proof enough that god cannot and does not exist.

Just thought I'd share my views on this documentary if people get a chance they should watch it.

joseph brand

PlainP wrote: »

http://www.channel4.com/programmes/bodyshock/4od

I watched this documentary last night. I found it very sad that the mother of this child thought that god had made her little boy like this.

She was very upset, her family said that it was because she had witnessed an eclipse while pregnant that her son was disfigured.

Now why am I posting you might ask?

She said god had made her child like that yet she continually prays, reads the bible and ultimately believed that a miracle would occur and god would make her child better.

Why if you believed that god had done this to your child would you continue to believe in him. It baffles me that people have this blind faith when in their own words their god had done this awful thing to their child.

The scientific evidence supporting this genetic condition and the doctors who work on the children who have it, for me is proof enough that god cannot and does not exist.

Just thought I'd share my views on this documentary if people get a chance they should watch it.

At the risk of sounding mean, these people most likely 'don't know any better'. I haven't watched the documentary but from reading the story and looking at the photos, they look like simple folk living out in the back-arse of Colombia. They won't turn their back on god because of fear.

No amount of prayers was going to rid that boy of his 'shell', but modern medicine and surgery did.

Humans 1-0 god

But when plastic surgeon Neil Bulstrode, from Great Ormond Street Hospital, in London, heard about the boy’s plight, he and his team flew to capital Bogotá to operate on him.

Gregor Samsa

PlainP wrote: »

Why if you believed that god had done this to your child would you continue to believe in him. It baffles me that people have this blind faith when in their own words their god had done this awful thing to their child.

I think you're confusing belief with respect here. It stands to reason that if someone believed that god did this to the child, they'd continue to believe in god. If they stopped believing in god, they would by definition no longer believe that god was responsible.

As to why someone like this would continue to respect and pray to god, Christianity has that covered. They're told that God's will is a mystery, and that sometimes he does things that seem to test them, but the appropriate response is more faith in his goodness, not less. Also something about God liking it when people offer up their suffering to him, which is somehow seen as sharing in the suffering Jesus was supposed to have endured for them.

2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him. If we deny him, he will also deny us.

Matthew 16:24
Then Jesus said to his disciples: If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Colossians 1:24
Now I rejoiced in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ on behalf of His body, which is the church.

Basically, the more you suffer the better. It keeps people in their place.

seamus

joseph brand wrote: »

No amount of prayers was going to rid that boy of his 'shell', but modern medicine and surgery did.

Humans 1-0 god

Before you claim victory, did the mother claim that the arrival of the surgeons was God answering her prayers?

PlainP

seamus wrote: »

Before you claim victory, did the mother claim that the arrival of the surgeons was God answering her prayers?

She didn't actually say it but of course this is what she thought.

They are very poor and the child was able to get the operation from a fluke that a local tv celebrity heard about his condition and went on to ask the people who watch his programme for money to send him to get the operation done.

There was another part in it where one of the surgeons before they did the operation said a prayer asking god to guide his "cut" and the like. I think this was just for the mothers benefit??

Which also made me think if you are a doctor ie. think scientifically can you also believe in god???

Sonics2k

phutyle wrote: »

Basically, the more you suffer the better. It keeps people in their place.

Honestly, this has to be stupidest belief system in the world.

"Don't worry horribly disfigured child with severe physical issues that lead to a life of suffering, pain and humiliation, God loves you a lot more than those children born into rich families, free of deformations and lead long, happy and successful lives. He's just doing it to keep you in your place, because He loves you so much."

Really? This is a good God to you?

Gregor Samsa

Sonics2k wrote: »

Really? This is a good God to you?

You may have been addressing this at the Christian population in general, but just to be clear, I don't believe in god(s). My post was summing up the Christian position, with my own interpretation of the motivations behind it at the end.

joseph brand

seamus wrote: »

Before you claim victory, did the mother claim that the arrival of the surgeons was God answering her prayers?

No doubt she did.

Sam Harris stated a figure of about 9 million child deaths globally per year. The idea, that god would do his best for this child, who's situation is not life-threatening, and let millions more die is ludicrous of course. The boy got lucky, as stated in above post by OP.

The would have had the same result had they prayed to Joe Pesci.

Sonics2k

phutyle wrote: »

You may have been addressing this at the Christian population in general, but just to be clear, I don't believe in god(s).

It was more aimed at the general religious word. It's one of the things that baffles me :pac:

Gregor Samsa

Sonics2k wrote: »

It's one of the things that baffles me :pac:

You're not alone there!

joseph brand

Sonics2k wrote: »

It was more aimed at the general religious word. It's one of the things that baffles me :pac:

Blessed are the meek. Yeah right.

From The Life of Brian:
Mrs. Big Nose: [trying to hear Jesus' sermon on the mount] Oh, it's blessed are the MEEK! Oh, I'm glad they're getting something, they have a hell of a time.

WHAT are they getting? Ahahahaha

PlainP

PlainP wrote: »

Why if you believed that god had done this to your child would you continue to believe in him.

stockholm syndrome
battered spouse syndrome
"sure s/he'll hit me if i let him/her in but if i dont it'll be worse in the long run"

kylith

If you were genuinely convinced that a deity had afflicted your child wouldn't you be worried that letting some doctors cure him would anger the deity?

Galvasean

kylith wrote: »

If you were genuinely convinced that a deity had afflicted your child wouldn't you be worried that letting some doctors cure him would anger the deity?

Mental gymnastics, God afflicted our child to test our faith, we kept the faith so he sent doctors to cure him as a reward for our devotion.
Simples.

kylith

Galvasean wrote: »

kylith wrote: »

If you were genuinely convinced that a deity had afflicted your child wouldn't you be worried that letting some doctors cure him would anger the deity?

Mental gymnastics, God afflicted our child to test our faith, we kept the faith so he sent doctors to cure him as a reward for our devotion.
Simples.

How lucky they are that god doesn't exist, just in case he swooped down saying "I cursed him for a reason, now feel my wrath!"

krudler

suffering is gods will, to be relieved of suffering by people is also gods will. ah christianity, one of the most ludicrous belief systems around. god, the ultimate troll and thankswhore :pac:

meganj

In a way I kind of envy people their faith when someone gets sick. I think the ritual of prayer must be very comforting to them as they feel they are doing something.

Then again, having lost someone very close to me recently, I've seen the devastation that comes from having faith, using that faith and then 'god' rejecting your prayers. I think that must be absolutely awful, to not only lose the person you love, but to then realise that something you have given your life to, something that you think protects you from evil and suffering and pain, is just not true must be harrowing.

I wonder would this boys mother have lost her faith if something had happened to her son on the operating table?

krudler

meganj wrote: »

In a way I kind of envy people their faith when someone gets sick. I think the ritual of prayer must be very comforting to them as they feel they are doing something.

Then again, having lost someone very close to me recently, I've seen the devastation that comes from having faith, using that faith and then 'god' rejecting your prayers. I think that must be absolutely awful, to not only lose the person you love, but to then realise that something you have given your life to, something that you think protects you from evil and suffering and pain, is just not true must be harrowing.

I wonder would this boys mother have lost her faith if something had happened to her son on the operating table?

I'm sure some priest would be quick to tell it god was "bringing the boy home" or some other such guff.

Sarky

It's probably because I'm a terrible human being, but I keep thinking of the David and Mitchell sketch on The Boy With An Arse for A Face.

MagicMarker

Turtle boys are a delicacy among some atheist communities.

recedite

I watched most of it, it was strange how she carried her bible everywhere and read from it the whole time. Seemed to think the prayers were controlling the whole thing. Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see her thank the surgeon who flew all the way from UK. She hugged the Columbian doctor OK, maybe he was the one that prayed before the operation.
It really was an amazing contrast, these ignorant peasants living in mud huts with their superstitions, and then this consultant who hears of their plight through the modern media network, flies to Bogota, works his magic with an electric knife, and then lets god take all the credit.

HavingCrack

PlainP wrote: »

Which also made me think if you are a doctor ie. think scientifically can you also believe in god???

Doctors have been proven to be the most likely of any scientist to believe in a 'god' by a significant margin. Physicists are the lowest on average.

I think a lot of it stems from seeing a huge amount of suffering on a very frequent basis and 'faith' is some sort of comfort to them even if it goes against their science.

Have a look at Larson and Witham (1998) 'Leading Scientists still Reject God'. Nature. Vol. 394 (6691): pp. 313-316. I think it's one of the Nature articles you can access without a subscription, it's an interesting read.

recedite wrote: »

It really was an amazing contrast, these ignorant peasants living in mud huts with their superstitions, and then this consultant who hears of their plight through the modern media network, flies to Bogota, works his magic with an electric knife, and then lets god take all the credit.

To be honest, no doctor worth their salt is going to get sulky over something like that. I'm sure curing the boy of his disease/virus/condition was satisfaction enough. If the mother is uneducated enough to thank 'god' for it I suspect most if not all doctors would be happy enough to play along.

recedite

HavingCrack wrote: »

To be honest, no doctor worth their salt is going to get sulky over something like that.

Doesn't stop me getting annoyed though!
The documentary makers played the religion angle in a very neutral, though prominent way.
I'm sure there are an equal or greater number of religious people who watched it, but got a totally different message, reinforcing their own beliefs.

sbsquarepants

PlainP wrote: »

She didn't actually say it but of course this is what she thought.

They are very poor and the child was able to get the operation from a fluke that a local tv celebrity heard about his condition and went on to ask the people who watch his programme for money to send him to get the operation done.

There was another part in it where one of the surgeons before they did the operation said a prayer asking god to guide his "cut" and the like. I think this was just for the mothers benefit??

Which also made me think if you are a doctor ie. think scientifically can you also believe in god???

That's the old "mysterious ways" get out of jail free card.
I'm sure god is a busy man, it probably would have been a lot easier for him to just not curse the poor kid with a horrible disease in the first place, than to curse him but then set in motion a complicated string of coincidences to ensure he's cured years later, but then hey, what do i know, could i make a universe in 6 days? No! It took me 3 or 4 to put in a single kitchen.:mad:
I have to say i find his ways quite mysterious!

kylith wrote: »

If you were genuinely convinced that a deity had afflicted your child wouldn't you be worried that letting some doctors cure him would anger the deity?

Were you not listening - his ways are mysterious!!

The more you hear of things like this the more you realise how, ahem, blessed, for want of a better word, you are to be born into a society that educates it's people to a reasonable standard. This woman actually thought the cause of all this was an eclipse!!

doctoremma

HavingCrack wrote: »

Doctors have been proven to be the most likely of any scientist to believe in a 'god' by a significant margin. Physicists are the lowest on average.

Since when were medical doctors counted as scientists?

Here's the BMJ's take on it:
http://www.bmj.com/content/328/7454/0.9.full

Having worked with many many medics, I can think of no more than a handful who qualify as "scientists" (and that's even when they have a research degree).

HavingCrack

doctoremma wrote: »

Since when were medical doctors counted as scientists?

Here's the BMJ's take on it:
http://www.bmj.com/content/328/7454/0.9.full

Having worked with many many medics, I can think of no more than a handful who qualify as "scientists" (and that's even when they have a research degree).

I can't seem to access that (my university doesn't appear to have a subscription :rolleyes:). I can see where that viewpoint comes from but medicine is definately a scientific discipline, it certainly isn't a humanity/art/engineering/business subject obviously. As you say medical doctors aren't 'scientists' per sae but definately have a scientific method of thinking.

Anyway, I'm not overly interested in debating the topic, not too relevant to my original point.

recedite

Yeah I thought medical students automatically got a science degree in year 3 or 4 because the content of the course had covered more or less a BSc at that stage. Although I suppose that does not make them scientists per se.
They would also need a white coat and a pair of glasses to qualify for that.

endacl

joseph brand wrote: »

seamus wrote: »

The would have had the same result had they prayed to Joe Pesci.

Goes without saying, whatever you want.... Leo Getz....