how much will the legal path cost

tippgod

hi all. I recently bought a ring from a jewelery shop. I got the shop to make it and gave them the description of the ring and the diamond specs with it. I got the ring and brought it away to get independently valued. The valuer said I didn’t get what I ordered and also that there is a fault with the ring so I went back to the original shop but the manager is refusing to do anything for me. The cost of the ring was 4000 so I presume that puts me out of the scope of the small claims court. I really don’t think I am going to have much luck with solicitor’s letters judging by the shop keeps attitude and know there would be no point sending ten letters as he will just ignore them. When i left the shop it was not on friendly terms (my mistake)

What steps do I need to take and how much and how long will the proccess take? i contacted the nca agency put all they said was to contact a solicitor

drunkmonkey

I presume if you bought a ring for that amount you have a gia cert for the diamond, does it match the diamond that's in the ring?

tippgod

the valuation from the shop and the independant valuation match in terms of spec size of the diamond but i had asked for a larger stone. when i paid and collected the ring he did not have the cert ready and buying it from a repuitale shop i thought everything would be fine.

the independant valuer also noted that there was a defect on the claw of the ring that would mean the the claw could easly break off too

really stressed out over the whole affair

Zab

tippgod wrote: »

the valuation from the shop and the independant valuation match in terms of spec size of the diamond but i had asked for a larger stone.

I have no idea as to the cost of litigation, but you could do with clearly listing the events in chronological order to begin with. If you asked for size X and he quoted a price then supplied a smaller stone without telling you then you may have something, but I'm guessing the real story won't be so simple.

Fey!

Firstly, stone size: if the valuation that the shop gave with the ring had a size on it which the independent jeweller agreed with, where is the issue? If the shop you bought it in stated in writing what size the stone was, then why would you expect the independent valuation to show it to be bigger?

If you wanted bigger, why did you accept the ring from the shop knowing the diamond size?

Secondly, the claw: how sure are you that the independent jeweller is right about the claw?

In the jewellery trade a lot of traders get, for want of a better word, jealous that they didn't get the sale, and will knock anything not bought in their shop. This is especially true of several of the larger, more prominent jewellers around the country (one even knocked a very expensive ring they had made because they thought that it had been made somewhere else).

My advice would be to get another opinion about the claw, but don't mention the ongoing saga to the third jeweller when you bring it to be looked at. Just ask them to check that the ring is OK.

drunkmonkey wrote: »

I presume if you bought a ring for that amount you have a gia cert for the diamond, does it match the diamond that's in the ring?

There is a lot of crap still talked about certs, one being that a diamond isn't a diamond without a cert. Not all diamonds have certs, and not all certs are worth the paper they're written on. And, in this case, a cert wouldn't make a blind bit of difference.

tippgod

i had asked for a diamond size "X" and i got a diamond size "Y" and that was confirmed by an independant shop and the orginal shop. In my own stupidity when i collected and paid for the ring, the owner did not have the cert but i thought that the shop had a good name so it would be all right. if i had seen the cert i would not have taken the ring.

the fault in the claw was on one claw. the independant shop showed it to me under magnification and i could see that the inside of the claw was "pitted" and was advised that this could break. Now i'm understand the point of the independent shop being "jealous" but the two valuations were the same

has anyone went down the line of just going straight to court?

Zab

Did the shop mention anything about the diamond not being what you asked for when you picked it up? Did they quote you for diamond size X and do you have anything in writing (including your initial request)?

tippgod

Zab wrote: »

Did the shop mention anything about the diamond not being what you asked for when you picked it up? Did they quote you for diamond size X and do you have anything in writing (including your initial request)?

i was told that was my ring and just what i ordered. i have the the conversion wrote down on his business card with the price and the specs that were ordered. i wrote them as he was telling me and he read it back at the time and confirmed it on two seperate occasions with two differnt witnesses. He claims that its not in his writhing so it dosent mean anything

Zab

So he's denying that you ordered X in the first place?

tippgod

Zab wrote: »

So he's denying that you ordered X in the first place?

in one sense. the ring was custom made and he said afterwards, when we went back into him, that "X" would not have fitted so he put on "Y" which is a cheaper size. He was offering then to give me my money back but he overheard me saying something to my girlfriend that pi**ed him off and is now refusing to deal with us at all

07734

Without naming, was the shop in powerscourt? I've heard a very similar story about a shop there.

tippgod

07734 wrote: »

Without naming, was the shop in powerscourt? I've heard a very similar story about a shop there.

i would rather not give any details to be honest but just looking for help and advice. i'm not well off or anything and have never being to a solicitor in my life so dont know how much all this would cost. spent all my savings on the ring

07734

Fair enough, I understand. I think that you would be well advised talking to a solicitor, based on the case I know about.

sandin

Small Claims court is the place for you as you are looking for the difference between what you asked for and waht you received, therefore your claim will be under €2000.

All you need is for an independent jeweller to give a quote to upgrade the ring to what you had expected from the original store and claim for that amount.

Fey!

When you ordered the custom ring were you given any kind of drawing of what it would look like along with specs for the ring?

Presumably you paid a deposit for the ring before they went and made it. If you did, did the receipt not give any details of what you were buying?

If you ordered size A and were provided with the smaller size B, then, with qualities being the same, you should have been paying less. The only reason that the price wouldn't have changed would have been if the quality of B was better than A.

What is the difference in the size of the 2 stones; what did you order, and what did you get?

Also, what was the comment you made to your girlfriend; if the shop owner felt offended, it may explain the lack of helpfulness on his part.

drunkmonkey

Fey! wrote: »

There is a lot of crap still talked about certs, one being that a diamond isn't a diamond without a cert. Not all diamonds have certs, and not all certs are worth the paper they're written on. And, in this case, a cert wouldn't make a blind bit of difference.

A Gia certified diamond is graded and has a serial number etched into it. In this case it would have made a differnence. Sounds like op bought on the blind and doesnt really know the value of different stones. A proper cert adds value.

Fey!

drunkmonkey wrote: »

A Gia certified diamond is graded and has a serial number etched into it. In this case it would have made a differnence. Sounds like op bought on the blind and doesnt really know the value of different stones. A proper cert adds value.

Sorry to go OT here, but a cert doesn't add value to anything. And not all certified stones have the number etched onto them (in some cases the reflection of the etching in the stone makes the stone look included). Also, a cert is only useful if you know how to read it and compare it to the stone, which the vast majority of people can't do.

The cert wouldn't have changed things here as the paperwork from the shop had the size of the stone on it; from reading the OPs posts it looks like they didn't get the paperwork until after they had the ring paid for and collected.

drunkmonkey

Mabe OP should learn a little about them. Paid a lot for no idea what. If your buying a gem you should do some research on the value when spending money on a quality stone.

Can't believe you can't see any value in a certified gia diamond. Agree a piece of paper from the shop but your dismissing all certs. Thats a bad idea unless you know exactly what your looking at. A quality jeweller should let you check it all if it's properly certified.

tippgod

orginal poster here

i try answer a few of the points

did a good bit of research beforehand and thought i was getting an excellent bargin for my money. i had asked at the time would i be getting a cert with the ring and was told that i would be getting an independant cert. i paid the depost but all that was on the recit was for a custom ring. He had a card with all the details ( drawings, ring size, diamond specs) that he needed for the ring maker.

i collected the ring and paid for it and was told the cert had not arrived yet ( was still under the impression that i was getting a cert from an independant place). Girlfriend works with a few people who bought stuff there so i thought all was above board.

A week later got the cert from his shop and all that was on the cert was the caret size of the diamond.

we got it valued ourselves and on the cert it had the caret weight, and approx colour and approx clarity. Also there was no hall mark on the ring(is this important?)

the caret weight was .10 less than what i ordered and the colour was 1 less too. He told us it was illeagle for a valuer to put the colour and clarity on a cert.

as i was leaving i thought there was a misjustice done so with no bad language i turned to my girlfriend and said what i thought.

Fey!

@OP; it's not unusual for a jeweller to refer to their valuation as a cert, as in a certificate for insurance. It's not illegal, but it is very misleading.

Most people would assume a cert to be paperwork from a lab where an unset stone is appraised and all of it's characteristics charted, which are the certs Drunkmonkey is talking about. Unfortunately only a few places are very consistent with their certs.

What he said about having the colour and clarity on the valuation being illegal is rubbish. Best practice is that you would rate the colour as being between two colours, as the setting can effect your perception of the colour slightly. What I mean by this is that instead of saying it's G, you'd put it down as G-H. The same goes for clarity for similar reasons.

As for the hallmark, on new jewellery there should be a convention mark. For 18kt gold it could be "18ct" or "750", for 14kt "14ct" or "585", and for platinum "plat" or "950". For a full assay mark (for Ireland, the mark with Hibernia and the harp), it would need to be sent to Dublin Castle for testing; if the metal is substandard, they destory the piece (not much liked by a lot of jewellers, as their testing quite often doesn't match with everyone elses, but thats's a different story). For no hallmark, they're the people you need to talk to, though.

A 0.10ct difference could be huge depending on the size of the stone. A 0.45ct vs a 0.55ct, or a 0.93ct vs a 1.03ct would bring the stone into a different price structure. A colour difference would make roughly an 8% difference to the price of the diamond.

What the jeweller may say is that most of the cost of the ring is in the labour to manufacture it.

Can you get hold of the sheet (or a copy) that the jeweller gave to the manufacturer? To me, that is what this swings on, otherwise it's basically "he said, she said".

If you want to get a second completely independent appraisal and sound advice, try this guy: http://www.jewelleryvaluationsireland.ie/. A lot of shops send pieces to him rather than doing appraisals themselves. He also lectures on gemology in NUIG.

@Drunkmonkey; I'm trained as a diamond grader as well as having studied gemology. I'm also 17 years in the business. I've seen a lot of rubbish, bs certs, as well as a lot of fake "good" certs. To me, a cert adds nothing to a stone, and is definitely not a necessity. It's more important to trust the person you're dealing with and know that they know their stuff.

drunkmonkey

Shocking advice from someone in the trade. To the untrained eye a real gia cert is nearly a must or your wide open to getting screwed just like OP. Agree there is mainly junk certs but you seem to be rubbishing a gia cert.

OP if your getting something valued do not let it out of your sight for one second.

Fey!

I'm not rubbishing a GIA cert; I'm pointing out that unless you know how to read them they're not much use to you.

I also find that the "internet gemologists" are the ones most likely to get caught out.

As for advising the OP to not let the ring out of his sight for valuation, that's not going to happen. Doing a valuation takes time, and will generally be done in a workshop under particular conditions.

Pkiernan

OP: here is the only advice you need.

1. Ignore the muppets who are giving you a hard time.

2. Send the shop a certified letter asking them to (a) refund your money, (b) refund the difference in price of the ring you specified and the ring you received, (c) give you what you ordered where upon you will return your current ring to them. Your letter should give them 10 business days to do so. Keep a copy for your records.

3. 10 days later, assuming your are not made whole, keep the ring you have and sue for the difference in Small Claims Court.

All the best, and keep us updated. This thread can be closed now ;-)

drunkmonkey

Fey! wrote: »

I'm not rubbishing a GIA cert; I'm pointing out that unless you know how to read them they're not much use to you.

I also find that the "internet gemologists" are the ones most likely to get caught out.

As for advising the OP to not let the ring out of his sight for valuation, that's not going to happen. Doing a valuation takes time, and will generally be done in a workshop under particular conditions.

You never said that, id presume a good jeweller would show you how.

As for letting un certified or certified diamond out of your sight is crazy, pure cowboy stuff and in no way professional unless there is a serious trust there.

I dunno if I walked into a jewellers and you told me the cert was rubbish or you needed the stone on your own for a while id be running out the door. It screams crook.

Fey!

drunkmonkey wrote: »

You never said that, id presume a good jeweller would show you how.

As for letting un certified or certified diamond out of your sight is crazy, pure cowboy stuff and in no way professional unless there is a serious trust there.

I dunno if I walked into a jewellers and you told me the cert was rubbish or you needed the stone on your own for a while id be running out the door. It screams crook.

There is a huge urban myth surrounding jewellers switching stones. An established jeweller isn't going to run the risk of sinking their reputation by being caught switching a stone that might net him a couple of hundred euros tops. The chances of the jeweller having a stone in stock close enough to the size of the one being brought in for appraisal to swap them is fairly low.

What you are saying is akin to bringing your car to a garage for service but not letting them bring it into the service bay in case they swap out the engine.

Also, if I was to tell you that your cert was iffy I'd also tell you to go and get a second opinion in case you didn't trust mine. It wouldn't be the first time that I've had to do that, and I'm sure I'll have to do it again at some stage.

drunkmonkey

Fey! wrote: »

There is a huge urban myth surrounding jewellers switching stones. An established jeweller isn't going to run the risk of sinking their reputation by being caught switching a stone that might net him a couple of hundred euros tops.

It was a Jeweler that told me it was rampant and also the amount of fakes they put the figure at about 90% of stores are dodgy and from what you've written especially in relation to leaving the stones out of you line of sight isn't instilling any confidence in me, your saying one thing and a good jeweler I know says the complete opposite. Saying that switching a stone may only lead to a coupe of hundred euro gain is wrong and completely misleading. It's can lead to tens of thousands of euro in a gain. As a Qualified professional you should know that.

Fey!

drunkmonkey wrote: »

It was a Jeweler that told me it was rampant and also the amount of fakes they put the figure at about 90% of stores are dodgy and from what you've written especially in relation to leaving the stones out of you line of sight isn't instilling any confidence in me, your saying one thing and a good jeweler I know says the complete opposite. Saying that switching a stone may only lead to a coupe of hundred euro gain is wrong and completely misleading. It's can lead to tens of thousands of euro in a gain. As a Qualified professional you should know that.

OP, sorry for going so OT with this, but it needs to be addressed.

@ Drunkmonkey; would you care to name the jeweller who supposedly said that 90% of jewellers in Ireland are basically crooks?

What you say about not letting anything out of sight in any reputable, well established jewellers because it will have the stones switched is complete waffle.

I've heard this myth dozens of times in the past, and each time it turned out to be completely unsubstantiated BS.

Also, if you can't let anything out of sight in a jewellers, how do you get repairs, sizings and valuations done? Do you suggest standing in the middle of the workshop while the work is done?

Refering back to what a jeweller would make switching a stone, on a €3,000 ring it would never make tens of thousands of euros of a gain; it would be a couple of hundred euros, and it wouldn't be worth the risk. You are also assuming that the jeweller would have gone to the expense of having hundreds of bad quality stones in stock in anticipation of someone coming in with exactly the right size to be switched.

The consppiracy theory forum is somewhere over there =>. That, in my professional and qualified opinion, is where your allegations belong.