over weight instructors/coaches/sensei?

SBG Ireland

do you think a martial arts instructor can be respected if he's really overweight? im not talking about someone in their 40s gaining a few pounds, i mean proper overweight and no good reason other than laziness. or does it not matter?

Doug Cartel

SBG Ireland wrote: »

do you think a martial arts instructor can be respected if he's really overweight? im not talking about someone in their 40s gaining a few pounds, i mean proper overweight and no good reason other than laziness. or does it not matter?

How about if there was some overweight guy, who smokes 40 a day, and regularly turns out fighters who win competitions - would you respect him?

Dyr

He's done alright anyway

KathleenMcCabe

I don't know if you can respect/disrespect an instructor just for being overweight. Have they proved their ability in the past for real? Or are they just all about techniques and have no fighting ability. Martial arts has to go hand in hand with fitness and endurance. But there's not going to be time in classes to work on that unfortunately, so ones fitness training is up to themselves.

wingnut4

I dont think it matters, as long as they are fit enough to take classes and to practice their own art. Theres quite a few of overweight masters that are fantastic. Although im sure if they were lighter and fitter they would be better

Barry.Oglesby

There's a saying "some coaches can't play the game" but I don't think that applies to guys in their 20s or even 30s. If a guy is at the top of the room telling you to eat right, don't drink, don't smoke, stay out of nightclubs and telling you to be in better shape when he's in terrible shape, then he'd better have been there and done that himself and be in his 50s and have the medals to show for it. Believe it or not, fat, chain smoking, hard drinking coaches are in the minority. Nobody posts up pictures of Greg Jackson or Mark Dellagrotte or Renzo Gracie when these threads come up. They're all in their 40s and still in great shape, training and coaching daily.

In short, no. I would have very little respect for someone who expects something of others without walking the walk themselves.

cowzerp

When I done Kenpo as a kid most the sensei's where very fat-they did not inspire confidence to be honest and i always had doubts that they would be able to defend himself against a fit man, in saying that Butterbean is very fat and he's a beast!! he's quite fit actually considering he is huge!

I don't think been in competitor shape is a prerequisite for teaching but you should be in good enough shape to be able to show the moves and be able to spar/roll too, if your so out of shape you can't do these then their is something wrong straight off.

Performance Martial Arts

cowzerp wrote: »

When I done Kenpo as a kid most the sensei's where very fat-they did not inspire confidence to be honest and i always had doubts that they would be able to defend himself against a fit man, in saying that Butterbean is very fat and he's a beast!! he's quite fit actually considering he is huge!

I don't think been in competitor shape is a prerequisite for teaching but you should be in good enough shape to be able to show the moves and be able to spar/roll too, if your so out of shape you can't do these then their is something wrong straight off.

I dont think you have let yourself go that bad Paul mabye just a few pounds over:D

cowzerp

Performance Martial Arts wrote: »

I dont think you have let yourself go that bad Paul mabye just a few pounds over:D

Just trying to be like you!! Have a bit to go but it's a possibility

Peetrik

Its something I've thought about in the past actually.

On one hand I fully plan on getting fat once I'm too old to compete. Proper fat, I'm even excited about it a little.
As was pointed out, the likes of Butterbean, sumo wrestlers, Roy Nelson etc are clearly overweight but are still well able to handle themselves.
You don't necessarily have to be a good fighter to be a good coach, look at the fat bastard football managers.

On the other hand being overweight is usually a sign of a lack of self discipline. They probably haven't been able to discipline themselves into putting the hours in at training/running etc either.
I admit, seeing an fat, soft, slovenly sensei arrogantly strutting about when they haven't earned it really annoys me.

Just have to take it on a case by case basis I suppose.

Jason McCabe

It's definitely odd to see a fatty taking a class

In saying that I have gained quite a few kgs since I competed

Not having to make weight and injuries have taken their toll.

But I suppose what matters most is results. Alex ferguson doesn't have to be on the pitch he has to create the right environment for his players

I do remember though having a good laugh at a hips and thighs class in Coolock years ago when i lived in dublin where the instructor had an ar$e like a hippo

roro1neil0

just seems like a thinly veiled insult aimed at all overweight people.

Chris89

Alex Ferguson doesn't have to teach his players how to kick a ball though.

wingnut4

also if your overweight, it doesnt necessarliy mean your lazy, like Paul said, Butterbean, Roy Nelson, although they are fighters and not coaches I would certainly respect them alot. People can be overweight for many of reasons, not just because they are lazy

wetdogsmell

as a fat pig that that teaches a class you just broke my already over burdened heart, i have a medical problem that makes me fat, i think i have too many taste buds or something, i don't think being over weight effects my coaching its more my lack of knowledge and inability to express myself that makes me a crap coach, i'm off to do some sit ups, anyone else slags fat b@stards i will hunt you down and eat you

Peetrik

wingnut4 wrote: »

People can be overweight for many of reasons, not just because they are lazy

Ah lets be serious, without having to fear insulting friends or loved ones and pretending to accept the rubbish 'don't have time', 'metobalism' excuses, its a lack of self dicipline plain and simple.
Sure there are such things as spina bifida but for 80-90% of the overweight people its that they eat too much and don't exercise.

wingnut4

Theres a difference between overweight and morbidly obese, If i have a coach that is overweight and can do the work that the likes of roy nelson can do, i wouldnt give a ****

its not about saving insults, its my opinion that if my coach was overweight and was a great coach and teacher then I wouldnt care and would treat him with respect.

I think its different if it was someone that was 20 stone, couldnt roll or move, told you what to eat and them stuffing themselves with mcdonalds everyday

Peetrik

Don't get me wrong, I'm not attacking people who are overweight or even remarking on if it has an effect on their ability to handle themselves. I fully plan on getting fat myself.

I'm simply saying that the reasons that 80-90% people give for being overweight are BS. Anyone (myself included), obese, slightly overweight, portly, doesn't matter.

To put it another way...

SBG Ireland

oh can we cut the PC BS? folks look at the original question, i didnt ask
- should a coach by under 5% BF and still be competitive into their 50's
- give me an example of an overweight fighter who still can compete
- is it 'wrong' to point out that someone is fat

no, i'm talking about someone who is so fat they have trouble demonstrating techniques contained within their system. someone who gets out of breath walking from one end of the gym to the other. and cry me a river, they got that way by consuming too many calories while not exercising enough. (awaits the 0.000001% example that proves the point)

personally i think if you are a martial arts instructor then you should stay in 'reasonable' shape for your age. you are somewhat of a roll model and i know i wouldn't want to send my kids to train under someone who cant even take care of himself never mind a bunch of other people.

wingnut4

now that you have put that more clearly, then no i wouldnt send my child or go to someone who clearly couldnt walk from one end of the gym to another, who would?

CIARAN_BOYLE

SBG Ireland wrote: »

no, i'm talking about someone who is so fat they have trouble demonstrating techniques contained within their system. someone who gets out of breath walking from one end of the gym to the other. and cry me a river, they got that way by consuming too many calories while not exercising enough. (awaits the 0.000001% example that proves the point)

Then I wouldn't want him as my coach if in that condition.

OLDMAN1

SBG Ireland wrote: »

do you think a martial arts instructor can be respected if he's really overweight? im not talking about someone in their 40s gaining a few pounds, i mean proper overweight and no good reason other than laziness. or does it not matter?

thats a intresting question, what do you think John?

Peetrik

Short answer, it would be a big point against me sending my kid there to train.

If the club is producing decent fighters and also has a decent stable of fighters competing out of the club then yeah, I'd send my kid to train there regardless of wether the head coach was fat or not.
Untill you turn pro you get sod all 1-to-1 time with the main coach anyway (as it should be). Decent level sparring partners/padmen are much more important for beginner to intermediate than the head coachs fitness levels IMO.

Dyr

Chris89 wrote: »

Alex Ferguson doesn't have to teach his players how to kick a ball though.

Difference between an instructor and a coach I guess. Especially a team coach.

Ush1

I think it does give an impression of someone. In fact, I think there's studies showing that people automatically attribute laziness to people they see are overweight so fat people are less likely to suceed in interviews.

I think the attitude and how approachable an instructor is is perhaps most important(aside from knowing their stuff).

Stephen_King

SBG Ireland wrote: »

someone who gets out of breath walking from one end of the gym to the other.
.

If the question is can someone that unfit\fat be respected as a coach, then yes, providing their students are producing good results in competitions and\or able to hold their own sparring against members of other gyms. I would think that unlikely though, given that having the option of rolling\sparring with a coach is a big plus from a learning standpoint. No point doing that if the guy cant walk across the gym.

As for respecting them as a person, well, I'd wager most times they come up in conservation their weight will be mentioned as a side note. Im not suggesting that people will equate weight with being an asshole, indeed the coach could be the nicest guy\gal in the world, but 'Coach X produces some great fighters, but jesus hes a fat bast**d' would be a pretty common statement in most discussions relating to them I would think. Thats just human nature.

Im assuming of course there are no other underlying medical conditions (and there are quite a few that contribute to weight gain) and that the only contributing factor to consider from the coachs standpoint is self inflicted porkiness.

pablohoney87

If a martial arts instructor is badly overweight then
A. Their chosen art obviously isn't that physically demanding and wouldn't be one I'm interested in
B. They do not train hard themselves/have no interest in developing themselves further and i would have no interest in training with them

Niall Keane

Hatton used to pile on weight between fights, the "raging bull" likewise. I think some fighters find it hard to adjust back to "normal" level of training. I know after I finished up pro sanda, for a couple of years I was carrying some weight, not massive but an extra 6-7 kg. basically I was eating like I used to when training 6-7 hours a day, 6 days a week, suddenly you're training 2-4hour a day Andre body needs to realise this, catch up.

I see the point though, we all can think of seriously overweight coaches who have never fought and never trained hard, and use their weight advantage to "demonstrate", you get this alot in "pushy push" "Fa jing" demos in kung fu. Sending a 60kg lad flying when you're 150kg is hardly impressive? Guess I'm saying that we all have seen fat being substituted for skill. And a good sales man often gets more students than a good fighter/ coach.

As for smoking, well my sifu's teacher Cheng Tin Hung would teach on his roof top in hong kong and chain smoke, yet he produced more successful full contact fighters between 1965-1985 than anyone else there. He wasn't that over weight but wasn't ripped either. But he had done the business himself in the late 50's. He's widely accepted as the top tai chi Chuan grand master of recent history, yet his smoking hardly conforms to the publics perception of a kung fu master?

I would contrast this to the "Calvin Klein" fittness instructor MA coaches so widespread nowadays, I know many of these who do everything fittness wise, every new trend, hits, kettlebells, what ever is new, funnily enough none of these are really new, nor extreme. I know of a class by a style I won't mention, that spend most of their time doing push ups, doing light sparring every few weeks, I KNOW none of them can fight! But they all look fit! And let's face it that's what many people are after, a fun way of getting fit, Even if we look at competitions, contrast the numbers doing "light", "semi" or "no head-shot" to "full contact"!

Anyway I think this breads a poor fighting mentality. Trying too much! by that, I find that they rely mentally on doing more cutting edge training to beat their opponents, it kind of creates the "excuse to fail" a bit like runners who wear aero-dynamic suits. Like we know these suits shave micro seconds off times, ie have negligible effects, but I believe that the athletes would mentally fail before they start without them, as they would lose belief in thselves- how can I beat someone who has one? Type mindset.

For MA I think this is worse as such extra training requires oceans of time in martially non related activities. Nobody want their opponents to have an edge, and I've found some of my own students secumb to the sales pitch, despite already having 6-packs - go figure? In all cases those who did suffered skill wise and lost more fights. They were hardwiring movents that had no martial virtue, not pushing themselves in class probably as they were burned out doing too much.

Most coaches are well aware of the danger for a fighter of peaking too soon, Hatton again is a classic example, his last fight was laboured compared to his usual self, he had coldsores, for me a clear indication of over training, his body's immune system even suffering.

Basically I believe that a MA should have all the fittness and stamina excercises necessary, but if its a complete system these should enhance not detract from skills already learned. A fighter of such a complete system will be fit and look it. Someone just needs to tell him to take it easy on the portions when he retires ;-)

Conversely there are many half systems unable to or missing the elements that build "gung" power and stamina. Often I see such practitioners supliment the gaps with unrelated excercises, they can look ripped, but often their martial fittness is external and hollow. After all there are only a certain number of hours in a day. Guess I'm saying I wouldnt be inclined to equate a trim figure with martial ability either.

As for coaches several years down the line post competition days, well, I can understand "revenge eating" after the years of cutting weight! ;-)
fatties with expensive belts who never fought... That's another story!

There's only one real way to see if someone has the goods..

SBG Ireland

bringing in billion dollar football teams into the question? a machine that starts molding kids from 8-10yrs of age. with millions spent on huge coaching staffs with specific coaches for every facet of the game. lol, that's somehow relevant to the question asked about the typical set up of a martial arts club of instructor looking after 30-80 students?

SBG Ireland

Niall Keane wrote: »

Hatton used to pile on weight between fights, the "raging bull" likewise.

yeah that's examples of fighters, and neither exactly the ambassador to a healthy life.

SBG Ireland

Stephen_King wrote: »

As for respecting them as a person

that really would be a very different topic

Hanley

Q: How many boards posters does it take to answer a simple question?
A: A f*ck ton

Very simply, if I'm looking to learn any remotely physical task off anyone, I always look to see if they've walked the walk, or have a stable of athletes/results to back up their claimed knowledge. Or both.

It's rare that someone grossly overweight has either of these, ergo, no, I wouldn't want to be coached by them.

I actually think this thread is a bit moot tho to be honest because there's not that many people involved with legit sport in Ireland who don't fulfil at least one of the above criteria, or both.

SBG Ireland

Hanley wrote: »

I actually think this thread is a bit moot tho

yeah not like the other awesome threads here

slammer187

I could understand a slightly overweight or non athletic (looking) Judo instructor just because most of the top players don't look anything close to Calvin Klein models but could slam people into mats with ease obviously because technique will win over speed or strength generally in grappling arts and one of the objectives in the sport is not to be moved easily
Apart from that a Kickboxing instructor that couldn't kick a bag above his head or a BJJ instructor that couldn't play guard properly because a lack of agility in his legs from fat legs? Not a chance that you'd pay them any attention!

The Bored One

I suppose it comes down to whether it interferes with them actually teaching or demonstrating the style or art. Either they're able to function for and teach for a class in a technically sound manner, or they can't.
If they can't roll, spar, or wrestle or dance-fight for as long or with as much energy as younger, fitter members of the class, I wouldn't be too bothered by it. There's plenty of coaches with old injuries that they sometimes have to work around.
So long as they can work around it, and teach functionally, and technically soundly, its groovey.
If they can't, then there's a problem.

EnjoyChoke

Ain't no pork rasher going to coach me.

Niall Keane

"yeah that's examples of fighters, and neither exactly the ambassador to a healthy life."
SBG Ireland

That's my point! Fighting V. Fitness

They were both guys who fought at the top levels, weight was a real issue for them.
Hatton would pass for a bar bum any day of te week, and then in 3 months could transform himself into a world boxing champion. (in fact one may argue that his training method is one of the few proven to turn an overweight person into one of the fittest men on the planet, where as taking a slim guy and making him fight fit leaves room for doubt?) it's the Hattons of the world that should be consulted on such, not those already genetically blessed?

Who would you train with if you were a young boxer and the chance arose, Hatton or some "Calvin Klein" fittness boy down the local gym?

I know who I'd pick.

Interesting that you say "ambassador to a healthy life"

My point being that fighting and health do not necessarily fit hand in glove ALL the time. I'd even guess that for Hatton or the "raging bull" struggling with weight probably made them a "mean bastard", they sacrificed! , bit like giving up drink or sex before fights, science doesn't seem to feel it matters, from a bio-mechanical standpoint, but I would imagine that the sacrifice strengthens the resolve and intent, and in many ways that's what really wins fights.

A coach has to inspire, personally i lead drills for my students, spar everyone, etc.. but im young and fit enough, if i was starting out again, size and shape wouldn't really bother me, finding someone who has travelled the road would be more important for me, six packs are a dime a dozen, world class experience is rare!

Of course I'm talking about fighters coaching fighters, the elite end of MA.
For someone just looking for a public class, a hobby and to get fitter, and where fight records aren't available, sure sometimes it can tell a lot, BUT the trim coach can also be a snake-oil salesman if he's not getting his results from his MA but from suplimentary training.

A Chinese gentleman (all-china shaui-jaio champ) once commented that he could tell if someone was a martial artist with any ability by the shape of their shoulders.

Barry.Oglesby

Niall Keane wrote: »

Hatton would pass for a bar bum any day of te week, and then in 3 months could transform himself into a world boxing champion. (in fact one may argue that his training method is one of the few proven to turn an overweight person into one of the fittest men on the planet, where as taking a slim guy and making him fight fit leaves room for doubt?) it's the Hattons of the world that should be consulted on such, not those already genetically blessed?

Who would you train with if you were a young boxer and the chance arose, Hatton or some "Calvin Klein" fittness boy down the local gym?

I know who I'd pick.

well another factor is that Hatton spent most of his career NOT being overweight between fights, ie aged 12-28. You could also ask what would he have been like if he had spent his down time in the gym and not in the pub. I liked him and got to meet him in Manchester (very drunk lol) at Cage Contender 2 years ago but Ricky was an extremely hard working, dilligent boxer for most of his career. What the Daily Star chooses to focus on has become the story though. As for genetically blessed? I'd say given what Ricky Hatton achieved without proper nutrition probably would give more credence to the argument that he was genetically blessed rather than not...

I think for an older coach, once the experience and track record was successful that would be enough, but for a younger guy I think it's extremely important to look after yourself well and to do first by example.

SBG Ireland

lol people still discussing such extremes as if i asked should a coach be a ripped fitness fanatic. people not really able to differentiate between player/coach or general manager type roll/technical coach on the mat demo'ing techniques.

to be honest it was actually the reason i posted the question. i've spent the last decade around some of the worlds top combat sports coaches of various shapes n sizes so kinda know the answer already. was just sorta curious how the convo would go here, didnt disappoint

reminds me of a saying 'to those who understand no explanation is necessary, to those who don't none is possible'.

wetdogsmell

just wondering if you'd rather have a over weight coach that knew what they were talking about or a ripped one that just opened a gym even though they never realy had much success in their own career?????????????

Peetrik

SBG Ireland wrote: »

lol people still discussing such extremes as if i asked should a coach be a ripped fitness fanatic.

Ah here, your original question was if an overweight coach can be "respected", after discussion ensued you rephrased it to be...

SBG Ireland wrote: »

someone who gets out of breath walking from one end of the gym to the other

.. which I would consider an "extreme". Now your laughing at people for comparing extremes?

Make up your mind.

Niall Keane

"people not really able to differentiate between player/coach or general manager type roll/technical coach on the mat demo'ing techniques."
SBG Ireland

Not all arts have such a separation, "the beauty of the way is that there are many ways!"

Lao Tsu's quote:
"those who know do not speak, those who speak do not know!" .... So I "wrote" ;-)

SBG Ireland

i did type it at 3am, figured it would be obvious i meant as in would you want to train under him...but thats the power of the internetz, simple points are difficult to explain.
i tried making it clear that i wasnt referring to someone who's a lil over weight due to injuries/age etc but rather someone who's completely let themselves go for no reason other than they love cake and not so into exercise. if you've been around martial arts for a while it should be pretty clear type of 'master' i'm talking about.

roro1neil0

imagine how skilled a martial artist he would be if he could be a fat ass and a lethal ninja!

Niall Keane

i tried making it clear that i wasnt referring "to someone who's a lil over weight due to injuries/age etc but rather someone who's completely let themselves go for no reason other than they love cake and not so into exercise"
SBG Ireland

Well, you would think people wouldn't, but in my own experience many many many seek out "magic" to avoid hard work! And nice little pat-handy games rather than sparring, Bull**** versions of Dim Mak, "lethal street defence" etc... I don't know about other systems, but I expect they are all the same, look at tai chi as its generally presented to the masses, its a long way from "invincible" Yang Lu Chan or look at the many "too deadly for the Lei Tai Kung fu systems" ? If someone believes the hype a fatty probably proves to them that it works in a twisted logic? I know of many of such "masters"
Strange when you consider that the term "gung fu" means time and effort!
To each their own though, after all there's no point in trying to teach a pig to sing, wastes your time and only annoys the pig!

cowzerp

Niall please learn to quote proper, all you do is remove the bit you dont want and leave the quote tags.

Niall Keane

cowzerp wrote: »

Niall please learn to quote proper, all you do is remove the bit you dont want and leave the quote tags.

It's an iPhone / boards thing, the last post automatically gets quoted or you can chose to "clear text" - like yours above, but there's no interface like on a pc where you can highlight and hit the quote box. this came up before, any chance of boards dealing with it?

cowzerp

I am like Ricky Hatton and will say it straight out that it is down to lack of discipline, i put it down to years of sacrifice and then thinking it is freedom to be able to eat what you could not before-luckily i always get to a certain stage and vanity kicks in and makes me do something about it, the main change is i become disciplined again.

Tends to happen to people with low confidence or like me who battled to stay light for a long time and sacrificed heavily to do it. My confidence is just fine

cowzerp

Niall Keane wrote: »

It's an iPhone / boards thing, the last post automatically gets quoted or you can chose to "clear ?

I am doing it off I phone now

Just hit select and remove what you don't want, not the tags

Niall Keane

cowzerp wrote: »

I am like Ricky Hatton and will say it straight out that it is down to lack of discipline, i put it down to years of sacrifice and then thinking it is freedom to be able to eat what you could not before-luckily i always get to a certain stage and vanity kicks in and makes me do something about it, the main change is i become disciplined again.

Tends to happen to people with low confidence or like me who battled to stay light for a long time and sacrificed heavily to do it. My confidence is just fine

That's what I meant by "revenge eating" ;-) and I think alot of ex-fighters are like that, not only fighters, a friend of mine into body building has won Mr. Universe twice and I have to say though I can have a healthy appetite myself at times, he Truely shocked me with what he could put away at a dinner in Shanghai after one of his comps. I believe a lot of swimmers suffer likewise, I do believe that comming down from such intense training takes a while.

But I gather SBG is talking about those who never had "it" in the first place.

cowzerp

Love the tagging Niall