IMPEACH!!!

sceptre

While decent, well-articulated criticism with an actual basis is always good (always good - I realise that some people don't like it but it's good for democracy nonetheless), calling for an impeachment on the basis of a silly facebook posting (and yes, it was silly) isn't much of a foundation. Actually, it's a pretty terrible foundation.

Now, I'm familiar with what I call the buckaroo effect (the tipping point where the horse finally bucks and decides that it has had enough), where a comparatively insignificant item pushes something to a level where something has to be done about it or should be done about it or where it becomes arguably justifiable to do something about it, but, really: a silly facebook posting?

As I said on the facebook thread part-screencapped and linked above,

me, on facebook wrote:

People who pick up a few hundred votes (apologies, I can't remember how many, but it was a very competent showing in the election by DH) tend to have a point of view that, at the *very* least, a few hundred people respect.

And you don't need to pick up a chunk of votes in an election anyway to have an opinion that's worth something. We need more opinions competently expressed, not fewer. Reasoned discussion and rational disagreement are desirable things. They always have been. They always will be.

Then again, I find it more useful to attack the message (if one desires to attack anything) than to attack the messenger. The former is useful, the latter usually isn't.

That applies to here just as much as it does to there.

The other thing, by the way, is that, in life, people will disagree with you. That's a good thing. If no-one had ever disagreed with anything, as a species we'd still be sitting in the Great Rift Valley trying to survive by throwing stones at elephants. Personalising a discussion tends to be pointless, idiotic and self-defeating but well-articulated, well-based disagreement is the foundation of everything we've managed in the past few million years. You don't have to do it in public - you can do it in private - but as a student (or broadly-speaking, as a human), if you want to do it in public, you can, as long as you're not a dick about it. It would be nice if people (and when I say "people", I mean a chunk of people, not just one or two) didn't feel personally offended by people disagreeing with them, as though it were questioning their right to use the world's oxygen supply. Or this notion (growing among the tweens in particular) that someone who doesn't agree with absolutely everything they say is somehow the enemy, just for having an opinion.

On the other hand, most of the time, if you can't disagree in a reasoned manner, you might want to consider whether you should bother. There are still (some) elephants around and you can still survive by throwing stones at them. If you'd rather that.

As a foundation for impeachment, honestly, you've got to be kidding me. If you've got something else (something actually substantial), base it on that. Instead. And hammer it home if you like because, if you've got something else, it might well be justifiable. If you've got nothing else, you probably shouldn't be building impeachment houses.

But, hey, sense is surprisingly uncommon.

Fishooks12

hey're a group of students - around 10 or so active members I think, mostly are in MMPT from what I can tell. They set up an online site for the Limerick area under the guise of making it a 'news' site yet all they seem to do is union bash.

Comments from Kelly O Brien on her facebook page about TST

Aswell as being untrue (TST is made up of people from a number of different courses, journalism, economics)

It's also highly spiteful and petty

The Union have been a disaster this year in terms of PR,

Dalys live 95 embarrassing ranking among the most shamefully egotistical things I've ever listened to. He was sent on to defend students during rag week, a time when we are mercilessly stereotyped and he uses it as an opportunity to grind his own axe.


This is on top of all the unprofessional facebook interaction between sabbats themselves and the students

Kelly was all about TST when they were publishing stories about the Rockett scandal

But now that the heat is on her best friend she's taken a more sour tone

The brilliant thing about it is by by linking the article all she's doing is driving more traffic to the TST site

Judging by how the sabbats have taken to critique this year I sincerely hope none of them are planning a move into politics on a larger scale given their reactions. Although I think we all know where el presidente wants to head

And before I get accused of being totally anti soc I actually think Kelly's done a decent job. An focal is still hampered by its union affiliation, although it's improved immensely under Kelly and Jason

ULFM has been a brilliant addition to student media in the college too, and some of the abuse Kelly got when it was set up was totally unjustified

ninty9er

The ironic thing:
Those attacking us here are doing so because we take issue with someone making a baseless attack.

So should it be the case that you can say anything you like about somebody, but they in turn should not be allowed to respond?

The sustained and largely (though not entirely) unjustifiable attack is like nothing I have seen against teams that had a much easier time of it in terms of organisational issues.

Sceptre, Aoife's comment, while somewhat bitter, is in my view justified. There has been quite a bit ill informed pontificating from certain quarters, and if anyone needs reminding, she got almost 2,400 votes, more than almost anyone who has ever contested a ULSU Election.

If there are issues with officers, they should be addressed to that officer, then to the President if the issue is not resolved.

While this is not the correct platform, I cannot have the performance of one of my officers unjustifiably attacked, when she has been an effective, efficient part of the team.

Fishooks12

ninty9er wrote: »

, and if anyone needs reminding, she got almost 2,400 votes, more than almost anyone who has ever contested a ULSU Election.

That's hilariously irrelevant

Sure how many years was Bertie mopping up in North Dublin and look at that crooked bastard

Not saying Aofie is crooked btw but assuming someone is a good sabbat because of their vote count is laughable. It's what you do in you elected time that counts.

And while Aoife has fulfilled her role as edu officer well her childish and bitter attack on a perfectly legitimate opinion piece was something she shouldn't have been involved in. Disagree with the points, point out errors in the piece all day but using her role as education officer to present a "quote" insulting the student author was a horrible error of judgement

One I think she quickly realized following the backlash against the remarks that caused her to delete the comments

UL_heart_throb

I don't follow the SU at all just bits and pieces sent to me on the interwebs. But is the gist of this, Kelly defends what ever Aoife says because they are 'best friends' and Derek is defending AK because she is 'one of his officers'. So they are not really defending her for rational, professional reasons but rather because she is their mate? lol. just lol.

reunion

Fishooks12 wrote: »

One I think she quickly realized following the backlash against the remarks that caused her to delete the comments

For me the comments are still there. I see the same comments as in the image provided in the first post (if I head to http://www.facebook.com/tstul)

hey're a group of students - around 10 or so active members I think, mostly are in MMPT from what I can tell. They set up an online site for the Limerick area under the guise of making it a 'news' site yet all they seem to do is union bash.

This makes me wonder about how bad an focal has become. I go to the main page of an focal's website I'm greeted with yoga the silent killer, J.K Rowlings new success, a football story, Christian Dior and a story about jeremy lin.

Not one story in the main headline rotation are about ANY student issue. An focal has becoming nothing more than the union funding wanna-be journalists for articles that further their career and not for students well being. You wonder why students care less for the union? Our own new source doesn't care about what matters to students.

I head to Thomond student times and I'm greeted with 3 (out of 4 stories) about the Union.

I also wonder if an anti-union piece (or anti-sabbat piece) was written, would an focal publish it? I actually can't remember even one piece that even vaguely criticised the SU.

ninty9er wrote: »

Sceptre, Aoife's comment, while somewhat bitter, is in my view justified.

Care to justify the comment?

If I told you to tell David Hartery or Eamonn Horgan (or Paddy Rockett for that matter) ‎"Why does anyone care what the opinion of a failed presidential candidate is?" would you publicly post that to them for all to see?

When Paddy sends out an email, can you click reply to all and and just post that quote? because, you know, it's justified...

ninty9er wrote: »

There has been quite a bit ill informed pontificating from certain quarters, and if anyone needs reminding, she got almost 2,400 votes, more than almost anyone who has ever contested a ULSU Election.

Second to Paddy Rockett that year. Though that would show how good a job the sabbat team of 10/11 did with encouraging students to vote and how important the 3321 students felt education was. The turnout this year for education was 2133, a significant drop.

ninty9er wrote: »

If there are issues with officers, they should be addressed to that officer, then to the President if the issue is not resolved.

The president should be addressed if there is an issue with the officer (or else the vice-president if it's the president). If you have an issue, I do agree boards isn't the most appropriate method, however, it has achieved results in the past, sometimes more effective and efficient results.

ninty9er wrote: »

While this is not the correct platform, I cannot have the performance of one of my officers unjustifiably attacked, when she has been an effective, efficient part of the team.

The impression I've gotten this year is the Sabbats weren't functioning as a full team (a fireable offence). She has been professional and well-informed with my dealings with her and I do think this entire thread about impeachment for a serious error in judgement is unnecessary.

ninty9er

Fishooks12 wrote: »

That's hilariously irrelevant

I didn't bring votes into this, Sceptre did.

UL_heart_throb wrote: »

I don't follow the SU at all just bits and pieces sent to me on the interwebs. But is the gist of this, Kelly defends what ever Aoife says because they are 'best friends' and Derek is defending AK because she is 'one of his officers'. So they are not really defending her for rational, professional reasons but rather because she is their mate? lol. just lol.

I defended Aoife because I consider the attack here to be completely unjustifiable, but work away, misrepresent me, it's almost a pastime for some people these days. I have better things to be doing.

DeclansKidney

To get back on the topic at hand.

The comments on the TST page were ill advised. Kenny should not be commenting on these facebook posts in such a fashion. The education officer should not be questioning the character of any member of the student body in any capacity, be it privately or online.

UL_heart_throb

ninty9er wrote: »

I didn't bring votes into this, Sceptre did.


I defended Aoife because I consider the attack here to be completely unjustifiable, but work away, misrepresent me, it's almost a pastime for some people these days. I have better things to be doing.

Explain why it's unjustifiable, seems fairly justifiable to me. She attacked a student who criticised her professional behaviour. She attacked in a unprofessional manner. Seems fairly cut and dry to me. Her behaviour was inappropriate and a SU president who wasn't up to his neck in unprofessional behaviour should have told her that.

It's a pity you don't have time to be doing your job rather than better things.

roro1neil0

ninty9er wrote: »

I didn't bring votes into this, Sceptre did.


I defended Aoife because I consider the attack here to be completely unjustifiable, but work away, misrepresent me, it's almost a pastime for some people these days. I have better things to be doing.

answer the questions addressed to you derek and stop getting into silly tit for tats with forum users.

Ginge Young

roro1neil0 wrote: »

answer the questions addressed to you derek and stop getting into silly tit for tats with forum users.

Rich coming from you.

freyners

Ginge Young wrote: »

Rich coming from you.

bet me to it

roro1neil0

Ginge Young wrote: »

Rich coming from you.

last time i checked I'm not SU president and have no professional or ethical requirement to act in a mature and dignified fashion on this forum. I post on this forum for my own amusement and sometimes i share the antisoc perspective. If I was paid by students to represent them, advise them, lobby for them and speak for them, I wouldn't be abusing them like derek daly and aoife kenny.

If people call me out on stuff I address it, I have no reputation to uphold. At least unlike you, I don't engage in these petty antics and then pretend I'm not doing it. YOu're full of useless snide comments that are unproductive but yet you masquerade as the great C&S advocate.

DeclansKidney

Would the SU not be better off having a rule for all sabbats that no SU business be discussed on personal facebook accounts? Just leave SU business to the actual SU facebook page?
Seems simple enough, at least then ye wouldn't be getting into this mess.

ninty9er

It's been a while since I did it, so I'd forgotten there was an ignore user function on Boards that "disappears" their comments
I'll have a nice list of account supplied by a certain individual to block;)

DeclansKidney

ninty9er wrote: »

It's been a while since I did it, so I'd forgotten there was an ignore user function on Boards that "disappears" their comments
I'll have a nice list of account supplied by a certain individual to block;)

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but surely you are there to listen to the problems of those students that you represent?

Ginge Young

DeclansKidney wrote: »

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but surely you are there to listen to the problems of those students that you represent?

They are welcome to go in and visit him as it any student. I agree with being as open as possible on here and trying to answer questions.....but with *certain* accounts it really isn't possible to have a coherent conversation.

DeclansKidney

Ginge Young wrote: »

They are welcome to go in and visit him as it any student. I agree with being as open as possible on here and trying to answer questions.....but with *certain* accounts it really isn't possible to have a coherent conversation.

Okay, that may be fair but there was no need for his last post.



Also, if I paid him a visit in the office, and he didn't like what I had to say, does that give him the right to shove his fingers in his ears and say 'LALALALALALA'?

roro1neil0

Ginge Young wrote: »

They are welcome to go in and visit him as it any student. I agree with being as open as possible on here and trying to answer questions.....but with *certain* accounts it really isn't possible to have a coherent conversation.

you seem to have forgiven and forgotten the su president essentially hoodwinking you at start of term for signatures on cheques. Now you've become his little errand boy, posting to back him up and liking his posts.

Mikel91

I'd love to know how many of you that frequently complain here have actually gone into dereks office and talked to him.

OhMSGlive

Mikel91 wrote: »

I'd love to know how many of you that frequently complain here have actually gone into dereks office and talked to him.

THIS.

Seriously, let's do a little headcount here. How many of the people who keep bashing the SU on boards have actually gone in to Derek or the others and expressed their feelings to the sabbats' faces?

(Not judging anyone at all, just want to know out of plain interest.)

Fishooks12

OhMSGlive wrote: »

THIS.

Seriously, let's do a little headcount here. How many of the people who keep bashing the SU on boards have actually gone in to Derek or the others and expressed their feelings to the sabbats' faces?

(Not judging anyone at all, just want to know out of plain interest.)

I haven't, only because I've been on Erasmus and co-op all year

The whole anti soc element here is pretty laughable but it shouldn't take away from the fact that a lot of reasonable students have lost faith in the union after this year's many debacles

The huge disconnect from the average student and the union is the most worrying trend

wnolan1992

Fishooks12 wrote: »

I haven't, only because I've been on Erasmus and co-op all year

The whole anti soc element here is pretty laughable but it shouldn't take away from the fact that a lot of reasonable students have lost faith in the union after this year's many debacles

The huge disconnect from the average student and the union is the most worrying trend

Definitely. Think this was well and truly proven with the two UGM's this year. It's things like holding back information and not communicating with the entire student body that make people think "Well, what's the point of getting involved?"

I'm hopeful that there may be an improvement next year with the implementation of Paddy's forum idea.

Mikel91

Huge disconnect this year?

Lads the majority of students couldn't care less about the SU or whose in it.

Fishooks12

Mikel91 wrote: »

Huge disconnect this year?

Lads the majority of students couldn't care less about the SU or whose in it.

Yes...........

That would imply a disconnect!

Ginge Young

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Yes...........

That would imply a disconnect!

I think what he means is the general irish culture not to give a crap. It's a minority that ever do sadly, from my own experience anyway. I don't think it's necessarily a problem with the Union, I think it's just more people don't understand what the Union actually does for them, so they just don't give a ****e.

Funnily enough anyone who gets involved are seen as twats by the general student body, something that has continued out from secondary school. When I was in first year, people used to take the piss out of me because I wanted to be a class rep and saw it as a complete joke. This is 1st years. If they have that attitude coming in, I don't see what changes it.

I believe it's more to do with the beliefs and values of the general Irish public. While I think the SU can do some things (And I believe the new student centre will draw people into the heart of the SU and more involvement etc) it's not fair to blame it completely on them.

The medical centre got 900 or so responses, I could be wrong on that, but out of a campus of 12,000 thats a disgrace. That's not a disconnect, that's people just not giving a ****e. My own opinion. Would love to see more people drawn in, dunno how it can happen though.

Edit: Sorry I have seen surveys with more responses, those have offered prizes though ;-)

Edit 2: Disclaimer, other class reps or volunteers may not have experienced what I did when I originally got involved :-P Maybe I am just a twat ;-)

Fishooks12

Ginge Young wrote: »

I think what he means is the general irish culture not to give a crap. It's a minority that ever do sadly, from my own experience anyway. I don't think it's necessarily a problem with the Union, I think it's just more people don't understand what the Union actually does for them, so they just don't give a ****e.

Funnily enough anyone who gets involved are seen as twats by the general student body, something that has continued out from secondary school. When I was in first year, people used to take the piss out of me because I wanted to be a class rep and saw it as a complete joke. This is 1st years. If they have that attitude coming in, I don't see what changes it.

I believe it's more to do with the beliefs and values of the general Irish public. While I think the SU can do some things (And I believe the new student centre will draw people into the heart of the SU and more involvement etc) it's not fair to blame it completely on them.

The medical centre got 900 or so responses, I could be wrong on that, but out of a campus of 12,000 thats a disgrace. That's not a disconnect, that's people just not giving a ****e. My own opinion. Would love to see more people drawn in, dunno how it can happen though.

Edit: Sorry I have seen surveys with more responses, those have offered prizes though ;-)

That's a cop out

There's far more interest in SU politics in the other Universities

Plus votes in this years SU elections were down by a third on the previous year. That doesn't happen by accident

I don't buy into this whole "the Irish don't care", we're a very self begrudging country in that respect

Plus I think a lot more people would have cared about the medical center were the student body informed correctly and given a chance to respond. not when the decision is already made!

Ginge Young

Fishooks12 wrote: »

That's a cop out

There's far more interest in SU politics in the other Universities

Plus votes in this years SU elections were down by a third on the previous year. That doesn't happen by accident

I don't buy into this whole "the Irish don't care", we're a very self begrudging country in that respect

As regards elections, I believe it was the candidates that resulted in less votes. The campaigns last year were everywhere. I rarely saw anyone in the courtyard this year. I've spoken with many people and they agree with me it's not due to the SU (granted more advertising would have been good) but a lot is due to the very relaxes campaigning done this year.

I don't mean to offend by what I say, but the survey speaks for itself, the forum speaks for itself, the history of quorum general meetings speak for itself. The general student body couldn't care less what happens unless it directly affects their pockets. Hell even when it does they didn't get involved.

I could be wrong, but I have heard no one giving suggestions of how this "disconnect" could be mended. Sorry all this is a bit off topic, but I just don't think the disconnect is fully the SU's fault. Others may disagree with me, but there are so many who just don't care from the moment they walk in. What can be done to change that? Could something be done during orientation week?

Edit: What do the other SU's do differently? That is what we need to find out if engagement is much better in them.

Bored Accountant

Fishooks12 wrote: »

That's a cop out

There's far more interest in SU politics in the other Universities

Plus votes in this years SU elections were down by a third on the previous year. That doesn't happen by accident

I don't buy into this whole "the Irish don't care", we're a very self begrudging country in that respect

This year with the SU elections having a bank holiday at the start of the week meant, ppl didn't have as much of a chance to come in contact with the candiates. the only time i was approached was someone offering me sweets and even at that they didn't ask me to vote for anyone, just did i want sweets.

I didn't participate in any of the medical center forums cause I think of the 5 years i've been in the college i've used its services maybe 3 or 4 times and don't have any problem with a low level of charges coming in. it might deter students from going everytime they get a small cough so people with a serious ailment might actually get an appointment when they need it and not 2 or 3 days after.
I know when I completed my undergrad probably out of a group of 30 to 40 friends over 4 years, i'd say only about 10% if even got involved in Clubs and Societies or the Union and the rest were just happy to go out drinking and have the craic and enjoy college that way.
They had no use for the union so weren't interested.
Other than being involved in clubs and societies over my time in UL I don't think i've had any other need for the Students Union, but I still keep up on the happenings inside of it.

reunion

Ginge Young wrote: »

I think what he means is the general irish culture not to give a crap. It's a minority that ever do sadly, from my own experience anyway. I don't think it's necessarily a problem with the Union, I think it's just more people don't understand what the Union actually does for them, so they just don't give a ****e.

Funnily enough anyone who gets involved are seen as twats by the general student body, something that has continued out from secondary school. When I was in first year, people used to take the piss out of me because I wanted to be a class rep and saw it as a complete joke. This is 1st years. If they have that attitude coming in, I don't see what changes it.

I believe it's more to do with the beliefs and values of the general Irish public. While I think the SU can do some things (And I believe the new student centre will draw people into the heart of the SU and more involvement etc) it's not fair to blame it completely on them.

The medical centre got 900 or so responses, I could be wrong on that, but out of a campus of 12,000 thats a disgrace. That's not a disconnect, that's people just not giving a ****e. My own opinion. Would love to see more people drawn in, dunno how it can happen though.

Edit: Sorry I have seen surveys with more responses, those have offered prizes though ;-)

Edit 2: Disclaimer, other class reps or volunteers may not have experienced what I did when I originally got involved :-P Maybe I am just a twat ;-)

Can't say my experience was like that. It seemed more that no one could be bothered to be a class rep, rather than viewing the position as a joke.
Side note, I viewed the position a joke after taking up the role of class rep.

I find that most people can't be bothered to help out in most things as they think the work load is a lot greater than it actually is.

Which is why I figure people who actually help out, find it's not that bad.