Joe Schmidt for Ireland Backs Coach

Leinster7

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/schmidt-would-be-natural-choice-for-ireland-obrien-3083700.html

I sincerely hope not or we'll never get rid of Kidney and Schmidt will be highly marginalised. Can't see him being dumb enough to take it to be honest...

corny

Wouldn't be in favour IF Schmidt got the job. For me he either gets the head coach role, he's 10 times more capable than Kidney, or he steers well clear of the Irish set up.

Big blow as it would be to Leinster i'd love to see him in charge of the National team.

ciarriaithuaidh

corny wrote: »

Wouldn't be in favour IF Schmidt got the job. For me he either gets the head coach role, he's 10 times more capable than Kidney, or he steers well clear of the Irish set up.

Big blow as it would be to Leinster i'd love to see him in charge of the National team.

Ah I love the way Leinster fans are prepared to annoint Schmidt after seeing what he can do for what, 1 year?..The man did a decent job in Clermont, but with a ridiculously talented team they won 1 Bouclier in his time there and never even made the semis of the Heineken cup.
His spell in charge of the Blues in super rugby was marked by the wild inconsistency of their results, despite the vast array of talent at his disposal..they made the playoffs once during his reign and were never close to winning the competition. When you consider, just the backs that they had back then..Howlett, Caucau, Nacewa, Tuitupou, Blair, Spencer, Rockocoko, Toeava, Atiga..that was a fairly poor showing.
And yet, he's "10 times more capable than Kidney"..who has won 2 European cups and a grand slam?

funky penguin

Wow, only 2 replies, and a Munster/Leinster pissing contest is brewing.

corny

ciarriaithuaidh wrote: »

who has won 2 European cups and a grand slam?

Yeah thanks for history lesson but thats immaterial as the team he manages at the minute are a shadow of what they could be. No need to get into the details but anyone who thinks Kidney has done a good job with the Irish team needs their head examined. The game has left him behind.

In that time Schmidt has gone from strength to strength. He was never 'in charge' at the blues (one of three coaches under Ant Strachan according to Blues website) and he was backs coach at Clermont with Vern Cotter in charge. Leinster was his the first high profile job as the main man and the structures he's laid (maybe built upon is better) have Leinster playing a brand of rugby the envy of coaches in the NH. 10 times? 5 times? Its hard to quantify but he's easily is a better coach.

thomond2006

I highly doubt Schmidt would leave the top job in European club rugby to become a backs coach under a highly restrictive and conservative coach in Kidney.

But hey, if it's just for the summer tour then why wouldn't Schmidt go?

rrpc

thomond2006 wrote: »

I highly doubt Schmidt would leave the top job in European club rugby to become a backs coach under a highly restrictive and conservative coach in Kidney.

But hey, if it's just for the summer tour then why wouldn't Schmidt go?

Something similar was referred to by Stuart Barnes in last weeks ST, but in relation to the England set up. Barnes just posed the rhetorical question as to why Schmidt would leave the top job in the top European club to play second fiddle to an inexperienced coach.

However, there are different ways of setting these things up. For example, he could be offered the backs job as an interim measure with a view to checking him out for the top job in a years time.

irishbucsfan

corny wrote: »

ciarriaithuaidh wrote: »

who has won 2 European cups and a grand slam?

and he was backs coach at Clermont with Vern Cotter in charge.

And actually in fairness, the only period he was in charge at Clermont they kicked on to win the Bouclier... So he displayed a bit of a Midas touch.

He's had two years, first year he won the Heineken Cup and got to a ML final, this year he's favourite to win the Heineken Cup again and Leinster finished top of the Rabo with complete ease. He's not bad.

padser

Leinster7 wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/schmidt-would-be-natural-choice-for-ireland-obrien-3083700.html

I sincerely hope not or we'll never get rid of Kidney and Schmidt will be highly marginalised. Can't see him being dumb enough to take it to be honest...

I'm a huge Schmidt fan (in fairness, what Leinster fan isn't?) but I would be devastated to see him take Ireland job under Kidney and apprehensive of him taking Irish head coach job.

He has only 1.5 yrs of head coach experience, an awesome 1.5 yrs no doubt but not sure he is experienced enough for head coach of Ireland (and he is far far to good to work for Kindey).

rrpc

ciarriaithuaidh wrote: »

Ah I love the way Leinster fans are prepared to annoint Schmidt after seeing what he can do for what, 1 year?..

Almost 2 seasons now and this is a newspaper article, not a Leinster fan.

shuffol

ciarriaithuaidh wrote: »

Ah I love the way Leinster fans are prepared to annoint Schmidt after seeing what he can do for what, 1 year?

Ah I love the way some fans still think Kidney is a credible coach after seeing what he can do for the last what, 2 years?...

chris85

Schmidt has 2 seasons basically under his belt, a Heineken Cup trophy, final of ML last season. Top of pro12 and Heineken Cup semi this season with a huge unbeaten run with a heap of new talent and depth in the squad. Leinster is in a good place right now.

I would be apprehensive of him taking backs coach under Kidney. Head coach would be good but torn between best for Leinster or Ireland. He is just doing such a good job at Leinster. Would be interesting to see him maybe go on tour this Summer as backs coach and see how it goes.

snow mad

I would like to see schmidt taken on as backs coach for the summer tour just to give him a bit of experience in the national team and when kidneys contract is up he can take up he would be better placed to take the job of head coach

molloyjh

A journo asked SOB a question and SOB answered it. There is no indication that this is even a remote possibility. And even if Deccie and the IRFU were seriously considering it I'd hope Joe doesn't. The set-up would be far too restrictive to allow him make the impact that would be expected.

I don't think there's anything in any of this, but it is nice to see some people are willing to turn it into a provincial pissing contest. Nothing like a bit of consistency....

lologram

Their incentives do not align at all. If you assumed that Joe came on as backs coach then either Kidney lets him do his thing and it embarrasses Kidney's previous efforts or Kidney et al restrict Joe and it would make him look bad.

Either way, one of the them comes out of it badly. Therefore why would they ever agree to it?

[Jackass]

ciarriaithuaidh wrote: »

Ah I love the way Leinster fans are prepared to annoint Schmidt after seeing what he can do for what, 1 year?..The man did a decent job in Clermont, but with a ridiculously talented team they won 1 Bouclier in his time there and never even made the semis of the Heineken cup.
His spell in charge of the Blues in super rugby was marked by the wild inconsistency of their results, despite the vast array of talent at his disposal..they made the playoffs once during his reign and were never close to winning the competition. When you consider, just the backs that they had back then..Howlett, Caucau, Nacewa, Tuitupou, Blair, Spencer, Rockocoko, Toeava, Atiga..that was a fairly poor showing.
And yet, he's "10 times more capable than Kidney"..who has won 2 European cups and a grand slam?

Yeah yeah, Schmidt is a bad coach, I concur, and that's why he should strictly be left at Leinster. They need someone with pedigree, like Umanga.

Seriously though, Schmidt would be an infinitely better national coach than Kidney. Yes, Munster won 2 European Cups under his reign, but with, at the time, the best squad in Europe, and I'm not sure any team before or since has won a European Cup "playing" such horrible rugby. The 2008 final goes down as the worst in history, and the rules of the game were changed that summer to stop the negative, up the jumper, pick and drive and hope for a shot at goal or kick to the corner and try and barge over from 5 yards type rugby.

It's that exact style that he has Ireland playing, and clearly it doesn't work, especially not in this day and age.

As for the Grand Slam, Kidney reminds me a bit of Bertie Ahern, arrived in and a golden goose landed on his lap, and despite all the mismanagement in the world, he'll always more than happily take credit for it.

I've said it before, but Kidney was a passanger on that Grand Slam journey, which got the rub of the green that O'Sullivans curse nver got.

O'Sullivan was a far better national coach than Kidney, it was his team and his style that won us the Grand Slam (and three previous triple crowns) and it's no suprise that Ireland have got worse year by year under Kidney, culminating with our worst 6 nations finish since pre-O'Sullivan era....and Kidney had a squad of Heineken Cup and Pro12 champions to pick from, O'Sullivan never did.

tolosenc

If Schmidt working under Kidney breaks him like Kidney manages to destroy the morale of the Leinster players, then this would be a horrid move. Want Joe to stay where he is for another few years. Maybe if we begin to stagnate/saturate in a few years, he'll move on, and if we need our best players sold, oul Kidders can come in at Leinster.

MungBean

Good to get his foot in the door though, if he was backs coach then he'd he all but guaranteed the head coach job if and when Kidney goes. Cant see Joe being able to turn things around any time soon without full control so doubt too much he'll prop up Kidney for long.

But like everyone else I'd like to see him remain at Leinster for a little while longer.

corny

tolosenc wrote: »

If Schmidt working under Kidney breaks him like Kidney manages to destroy the morale of the Leinster players, then this would be a horrid move. Want Joe to stay where he is for another few years. Maybe if we begin to stagnate/saturate in a few years, he'll move on, and if we need our best players sold, oul Kidders can come in at Leinster.

In a few years he'll be coaching the Kiwis. Get him while we can.

The Jaw

A lot of you are speaking as if it is an either/or scenario ie He leaves Leinster for the Irish job. Is there any concievable way he can do both jobs. (Foley double jobbed for most of the 6N's this year, albeit in emergency circumstances and I seem to remember Gaffney doing something similiar although I might be wrong on that). Jonno Gibbs is very highly thought of and he could look after them when JS is away with Ireland. With Leo, JH, BOD, SJ and a lot of others there is very good on pitch leadership. Joe could arrange the training sessions, Gibbs implement it and the the players do their stuff. BTW, Connacht fan here so no bias aither way.

.ak

Honestly I think he could be what Ireland need. If he's just going for the summer tour I honestly don't have any problem with it.

The problem I have is if he does a good job, the IRFU will be in a position to put him into a position where he cannot refuse a job offer. Basically I think he could get caught up in the wrong circles and if he refuses he could have a troubling time in the Leinster branch.

Why can't the IRFU just look over seas for a backs/head coach? There's a wealth of talent out there. They've had almost two years to look for one [backs coach], but instead they employed Kiss to double up on his job. Still a farce no matter what way you spin it.

Neil3030

There would also be the further matter of what I am sure is a decent bag full of shekles, in addition to an all expenses paid trip back to New Zealand for a month.

The key point, as stressed above, would be the degree of freedom afforded to him. And that, imo, is a near impossible call to make; Kidney has shown admirable levels of delegation and humility, but at times appears stubborn beyond belief. So you just don't know.

Fishooks12

.ak wrote: »

Honestly I think he could be what Ireland need. If he's just going for the summer tour I honestly don't have any problem with it.

The problem I have is if he does a good job, the IRFU will be in a position to put him into a position where he cannot refuse a job offer. Basically I think he could get caught up in the wrong circles and if he refuses he could have a troubling time in the Leinster branch.

Why can't the IRFU just look over seas for a backs/head coach? There's a wealth of talent out there. They've had almost two years to look for one [backs coach], but instead they employed Kiss to double up on his job. Still a farce no matter what way you spin it.

This

If it's only a temporary appointment what's the harm?

Would get him involved in the set-up too making it more likely he'd get the full job on a permanent basis when Kidney leaves

Teferi

Obviously Joe would be a massive help in making our rather pedestrian backline great again but would going into the festering snake pit of the current set up do more harm than good to him in the long run? You can see what effect it has on our players and how they can go from looking disheartened in the green to confident in the blue in a week.

I wouldn't be unhappy if he went on the NZ tour and I might even feel confident of actually making a good show of ourselves there but I would rather he waits to either head the new regime or at least be a backs coach under a competent head coach.

.ak

Fishooks12 wrote: »

This

If it's only a temporary appointment what's the harm?

Would get him involved in the set-up too making it more likely he'd get the full job on a permanent basis when Kidney leaves

Well you've answered your own question there. My thoughts on it are if he does a good job, temporarily, he'll be drafted to a permanent basis sooner or later. I'm just saying I'd rather JS to stay at Leinster, and the IRFU to look for a backs coach of equal quality. JS is doing a great job, but as mentioned before, he wasn't a world shaker before he came to Leinster. He was in the right budget and had the right qualities. Surely there's plenty more out there like him.

prospect

If Schmidt (or any other Non-Irish) coach was to take over the Irish National job, I think I would prefer if they went straight into it from the outside to avoid polluting them with whatever political/bureaucratic sh1te that goes on in the IRFU.

A fresh, unbiased, unmolested coach, that's what's needed.

average_runner

In fairness keeping Kidney in the job is a total joke. IRFU are afraid to sack kidney or cant afford it, so they try anything to see if kidney can get the job done.

Kidney should never of got the job in first place as he had no experience at the international level to work with a talented team that we had.

I dont believe leinster coach should get the overall job either as working at club level is different to country level.

We need an international experience coach that has no tie's with any of the Irish players, so none of the usual favourtism would occur like it does with kidney and Earls for example.

totallegend

He can't take the job on full-time, so I would question the value of having him there for the summer. At most, Schmidt would about a week with the squad prior to the first match, it's not enough time to make any sort of any impact, regardless of whether's he the right man or not.

If IRFU have decided that Les Kiss is the man for the job, let him have a decent run of games to show if he can hack it.

errlloyd

The following post is about JS becoming the HEAD COACH for Ireland.

I believe club coaches and national coaches are a completely different game, I honestly believe JS is one of the best club coaches going, but that mightn't translate as him being a good national coach.

What JS does well is he learns over time the strengths and weaknesses of his players, and tactically deploys them at the right time. He uses his entire squad to their absolute strengths, and that's what makes watching a JS coached team such a joy. I feel a million teams better when I see someone like Madigan or Macken score a try for Leinster, then when BOD scores, because I know Joe has thought it out, he's sat down with them, motivated them, waited for the opportune moment, and deployed them.

He's a master in man management, but I think it's because he took the time to build up a relationship with the men. I think the reason he has a good relationship with Boss and Reddan is because they know they factor into this plan. I think every player in the Leinster set up has a time and a place, and Joe is the man who has identified the time and place and is so utterly confident they he uses his men in that time and place.

So why do I believe it doesn't apply to national coaching?

Firstly I think Joe's knowledge of his players took time. We had a torrid start to the ML in last season. But even taking that torrid start, if you look at the way Leinster have developed, you can see how his confidence in his players (and their confidence in him) has grown. Every game he becomes better at using his men. Every week he is getting better, I sense that he (a lot like Brian McLaughlin) works very well with his academy.

I believe time and attention are key to coaching style, I don't know if he would get that time and attention at the top of the national set up.

He's a great club coach, I don't know if that automatically translates.

jm08

It took Schmidt about 2 months to get leinster to play the way he wanted them to. As Ireland coach he would get a week, maybe 2 to prepare Ireland to play NZ. It might not work out quite as some would hope to expect, but then, you can always blame kidney for that. simple really.

ray jay

Yeah how could Schmidt possibly get up to speed quickly as backs coach when Reddan, Sexton, BOD, D'Arcy, Fitz, Kearney and McFadden are so unfamiliar with how he operates?

.ak

ray jay wrote: »

Yeah how could Schmidt possibly get up to speed quickly as backs coach when Reddan, Sexton, BOD, D'Arcy, Fitz, Kearney and McFadden are so unfamiliar with how he operates?

jm08

ray jay wrote: »

Yeah how could Schmidt possibly get up to speed quickly as backs coach when Reddan, Sexton, BOD, D'Arcy, Fitz, Kearney and McFadden are so unfamiliar with how he operates?

You planning on bringing Leo & Thorn instead of POC & DOC/Ryan/Tuohy, or Schmidt instead of Best?

edit- sob instead of ferris, and jennings to openside of course.

CIARAN_BOYLE

ray jay wrote: »

Yeah how could Schmidt possibly get up to speed quickly as backs coach when Reddan, Sexton, BOD, D'Arcy, Fitz, Kearney and McFadden are so unfamiliar with how he operates?

Hell thats a full back line.

Big Nelly

jm08 wrote: »

You planning on bringing Leo & Thorn instead of POC & DOC/Ryan/Tuohy, or Schmidt instead of Best?

Does he not have a forward coach for that??? WHat has Thorn got to do with any of this? are you having a pop at a coach for bringing in a foreign player?

As mentioned he has the majority of back line already with him, Earls and Bowe are only ones not at Leinster really.

He might actually look at bringing in some of the Ulster player

For the POC etc he will have a forward coach, at the moment if I am correct this is someone from Munster?

Big Nelly

jm08 wrote: »

You planning on bringing Leo & Thorn instead of POC & DOC/Ryan/Tuohy, or Schmidt instead of Best?

edit- sob instead of ferris, and jennings to openside of course.

You edit your post and you make a worse point

molloyjh

Tbh I never factored in the time constraints myself. That means it is a definite no-no. There's no way any coach should be brought into a side with such little time with them. There is nothing anyone could do other than upset the apple-cart even further. It would be madness. But then again so was extending Kineys contract....

irishbucsfan

It wouldnt work. Leave him be.

jm08

Big Nelly wrote: »

Does he not have a forward coach for that??? WHat has Thorn got to do with any of this? are you having a pop at a coach for bringing in a foreign player?

As mentioned he has the majority of back line already with him, Earls and Bowe are only ones not at Leinster really.

He might actually look at bringing in some of the Ulster player

For the POC etc he will have a forward coach, at the moment if I am correct this is someone from Munster?

You seriously think the answer to ireland is to just instal schmidt as backs coach? id hazard a guess that schmidt has some say in how the forwards attack and supply the backs with ball.

and i wasn't having a pop at anyone - just highlighting that there is more to it than supplying a few backs with a few moves to get ireland playing like leinster.

Fishooks12

Forwards and backs coaches obviously work together

Good phase play depends on a rigorous understanding between the two units

I don't think it would be as simple as Schmidt turning up and suddenly Ireland would be playing like Leinster

irishbucsfan

Schmidt couldn't get ireland playing like leinster. He's not a magician.

There's a flawed philosophy applied to the entire team and it needs to be dealt with. I'm ok with just suspending my interest in the national team until that happens.

CJC86

A lot of people are saying that they would be happy with him just going for the Summer tour, and then returning as Leinster head coach next season. What do these people think a head coach does in the off-season? Sit around and do nothing? There is a lot of organisation involved during the off-season that he would be missing if he went to NZ with the Irish tour. Hence, I'd find it very hard to believe that he'd take the backs coach job for just the tour. I personally wouldn't want him to leave Leinster unless he's getting the top job though.

almighty1

ciarriaithuaidh wrote: »

Ah I love the way Leinster fans are prepared to annoint Schmidt after seeing what he can do for what, 1 year?..The man did a decent job in Clermont, but with a ridiculously talented team they won 1 Bouclier in his time there and never even made the semis of the Heineken cup.
His spell in charge of the Blues in super rugby was marked by the wild inconsistency of their results, despite the vast array of talent at his disposal..they made the playoffs once during his reign and were never close to winning the competition. When you consider, just the backs that they had back then..Howlett, Caucau, Nacewa, Tuitupou, Blair, Spencer, Rockocoko, Toeava, Atiga..that was a fairly poor showing.
And yet, he's "10 times more capable than Kidney"..who has won 2 European cups and a grand slam?

Enough said

Podge_irl

Attack coach is not the same as backs coach. Ireland forwards do not play in a way conducive to the kind of game Leinster play. It would take Schmidt a good while (and a complete change in general approach) to really affect Ireland attack.

niallon

Could somebody please knock Kidney off his ladder...

danthefan

Just to be 100% clear on this, does jm08 actually not want the best coach in the country, by an absolute country mile, to be involved with Ireland?

danthefan

danthefan wrote: »

Just to be 100% clear on this, does jm08 actually not want the best coach in the country, by an absolute country mile, to be involved with Ireland?

Axel Foley's not interested.....

irishbucsfan

My ideal ireland coaching team would be the leinster guys with Kurt McQuilkan thrown back in for good measure. Gibbes would sort the pack no bother.

Kidney and Schmidt would work together as well as Batch Bread and a medium rare Fillet Steak.

They simply have completely different views, mannerisms, beliefs etc. They are incompatible, polar opposites in some elements of coaching.

Just get rid of DK and get someone in who understands how positive rugby since 2009 is played. ANYONE.

Higher

I have no idea why certain Munster posters get so defensive when Declan Kidney is criticized. Hes a former coach of Munster rugby, now coaching Ireland. When people criticize him it isn't an attack on Munster rugby. I mean I have no idea how ANYONE can defend him in the last 2 years. The record since 2009 speaks for itself.

Time to move on. Could you imagine if England still had Woodward coaching them? Kidney achieved something magnificent, but sport is a cruel game and we've been on a downward spiral since the Grandslam with the performances getting worse and worse and the selections getting more and more wrong. It's time to bring the axe down.

Fishooks12

Deleted User wrote: »

Kidney and Schmidt would work together as well as Batch Bread and a medium rare Fillet Steak.

They simply have completely different views, mannerisms, beliefs etc. They are incompatible, polar opposites in some elements of coaching.

Just get rid of DK and get someone in who understands how positive rugby since 2009 is played. ANYONE.

Kidneys here until his contract expires, it more than likely won't be renewed bar a six nations championship or a big scalp in the summer or Autumn

In the meantime however he's, however unfortunate, staying put