Please advise! Getting rid of aggressive tenant

photogal

My mother is in her early 70s an took in a tenant about 8 months ago to an annex of her house. She never wrote up any lease or agreement with him and he pays his rent on time every month.
He is a long term unemployed and recently has seemed depressed and agitated.
Last night he knocked on her door at 9.30 demanding his rental deposit back as he needed the money now but hes not leaving till sept. He got very agressive and hostile called her ignorant. She rang me in a panic and I spent the night there as she was terrified he would do something rash.
The next morning I tried to talk to him and he closed the door in my face. I knocked again and he told me he wouldn't speak to me unless he had a garda witness (!)
I contacted his brother (found him in the phone book) to express my concern for his mental health and I was fobbed off, apparently not his problem, most of the family have disowned him years ago and he as hostile tendencies.
Very worried about this situation, called helpline for landlords in Dublin but no answer all morning.
How do I get him out of my mothers house? How much notice do I need to give him? How do I deal with him when he wont talk to me?

djimi

Is he actually living in the house with her or is it a seperate building? If he is effectively renting a room in her house then he is a licensee and not a tenant; he has next to no rights and she can ask him to leave whenever she wants.

Best thing to do might be to give Threashold a call and see what advice they can offer. You will need to play it carefully; you dont want it to escalate into something worse. Someone like Threashold will have seen this situation before and will be able to give advice.

3DataModem

"He got very aggressive and hostile"

= call Guards, change locks.

photogal

Its a large converted garage, so yes its the same house more or less.

I have called the guards and warned them that I may need some help if things got nasty. If he has mental health issues it could be ugly. Its very upsetting as its just my mum at home so my husband and I are going to move in with her for the weekend, she has cousins there at the minute so hasn't been alone in the house since this incident..
My sister is due home from abroad on monday so we are thinking of lying low for the weekend and letting him know monday after he has cooled down that he has a week to get out. Its the fear of what could happen in the week or after .....

Francie Barrett

3DataModem wrote: »

"He got very aggressive and hostile"

= call Guards, change locks.

If he can't live by your rules, then just turf him out.

Victor

photogal wrote: »

Its a large converted garage, so yes its the same house more or less.

No, it is either separate or not. Does the person have access to the house generally? If so, they are a lodger, if not, they are a tenant.

My sister is due home from abroad on monday so we are thinking of lying low for the weekend and letting him know monday after he has cooled down that he has a week to get out. Its the fear of what could happen in the week or after .....

Realise that you need to do this properly, presumably under the anti-social behaviour section of the Residential Tenancies Act.

photogal

Hi Victor, the tenant does not have access to the house so he is actually a tenant rather than a lodger.
Yes I realise I need to proceed with caution but dont really know what to do. I'm afraid to go and talk to him again, would I hand in a letter of notice?
I dont know and cant find out how much notice do I need to give him, can anyone please answer that question? Is it 7 days because of his anti social behaviour?

odds_on

photogal wrote: »

Hi Victor, the tenant does not have access to the house so he is actually a tenant rather than a lodger.
Yes I realise I need to proceed with caution but dont really know what to do. I'm afraid to go and talk to him again, would I hand in a letter of notice?
I dont know and cant find out how much notice do I need to give him, can anyone please answer that question? Is it 7 days because of his anti social behaviour?

He does seem to be a tenant as he has his own entrance and does not have access to the main house.

Yes, 7 days notice is required where there is anti-social behaviour is

engage in behaviour that causes or could cause fear, danger, injury, damage or loss to any person living, working or
otherwise lawfully in the dwelling concerned or its vicinity and, without prejudice to the generality of the foregoing, includes violence, intimidation, coercion, harassment or obstruction of, or threats to, any such person,

However, as the guards have not been called/advised of the situation, I feel that it would be prudent to issue an Antisocial Letter of Advice with the details that such his behaviour is causing fear and danger of injury to your mother and that failure to desist will entail the issue of a Notice of Termination giving the tenant 7 days to leave the property and resulting in the complete loss of his full deposit.

There is an example of such a notice on the PRTB website which can be modified to suit your situation.

Failure to follow the correct procedure could entail fines in the thousands of euros. Especially if the tenant goes to Threshold with a sob story of being evicted illegally. I presume that the tenancy has been registered with the PRTB?

Aye Bosun

If there is no written lease, then he is on a Part 4 Tenancy. This could work in your favour. A landlord can ask a tenant on a Part 4 to leave under certain circumstances.

Taken from the Citizen Advice: http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/if_your_landlord_wants_you_to_leave.html

Your landlord must always give you notice when asking you to leave. Landlords can ask tenants to leave without giving a reason during the first six months of a tenancy. Landlords can terminate a tenancy that has lasted between six months and four years (a Part 4 tenancy) only in the following circumstances:

After 3 and ½ years
If the tenant does not comply with the obligations of the tenancy
If the property is no longer suited to the tenants’ needs (e.g. overcrowded)
If the landlord needs the property for him/herself or for an immediate family member
If the landlord intends to sell the property
If the landlord intends to refurbish the property
If the landlord plans to change the business use of the property (e.g. turn it into offices).
You should note that if your landlord evicts you for a specific reason and subsequently does not carry out the intention (e.g. to live there him/herself) you can report him/her to the Private Residential Tenancies Board (PRTB). The PRTB will investigate your claim and take further action as appropriate.

You say your sister is moving home? This could be a valid reason for asking him to leave. Alternatively you could plan to do some refurbishment of the garage.

You need to be very careful how you handle this situation, when evicting a tenant you have to follow procedure to the letter, crossing all the t's and doting all the i's. If not and this guy brings you to the PRTB you will be fined heavily, they do not take a kind view of Landlords.

As a side note, I hope you're mum has registered the tenancy with the PRTB, if not she could be up sh*t creek without a paddle!

The link i have provided above will give you a lot of information in relation to tenancies, read it! I would also consider posting on www.irishlandlord.ie as there are few people on there with a vast amount of knowledge in this area.

If you need more advise, feel free to PM me.

photogal

Thank you for the replies. I spoke with the guards this morning and have registered the events of the few days.
Oddson, No, she has not registered with the PRTB, Im trying to do this now.
Aye Bosun, thanks for the info, Im thinking now that maybe the best route would be to give 4 weeks notice and say the place is needed for my sister, it would be a less agro way to ask him to leave and there shouldn't be a chance of any repercussions?

Aye Bosun

There should be no reprocussions as long as your sister actually moves in!

Best of luck with everything, keep us posted on how you get on.

Victor

Aye Bosun wrote: »

You say your sister is moving home? This could be a valid reason for asking him to leave. Alternatively you could plan to do some refurbishment of the garage.

Terminating a lease needs to be for a bona fide reason.

Aye Bosun

Victor wrote: »

Terminating a lease needs to be for a bona fide reason.

They are only not bona fide if they are not followed though on. If the sister actually moves in or the OP does some work on the garage then they are prefectly within their rights to ask the tenant to leave as per the Part 4. I am not suggesting they do anything but follow the the law to the letter.

LorraineMcFly

wait until he is out and go in and change th elocks and put all his gear in the garden. how dare he intimidate an old lady. we had a similar problem on our rental property. very difficult tenant, causing all sorts of problems. she was given notice of 6 weeks and her deposit and still would not budge. we told her parents and the mother told me that her father didnt want her back at home! . in the end we told her we would forcibly remove her and change the locks and she went then but only after asking for a lift with all her stuff. which we did as we were glad to see her go

djimi

LorraineMcFly wrote: »

wait until he is out and go in and change th elocks and put all his gear in the garden.

Which would be a guaranteed way of picking up a hefty fine for an illegal eviction...

There are laws which must be followed; even when dealing with a thug like the one described in the OP.

LorraineMcFly

Im a landlord myself and registered and pay tax. I have done so called illegal evictions before for scumbag tenants and i would not hasten to do it again. Never had an ounce of a hassle from it , never been reported, as the tenants knew they where in the wrong. Anyway where an elderly parent is concerned i certainly wouldnt be held to ransom by a scum tenant. change the locks and get him out.

the_syco

LorraineMcFly wrote: »

wait until he is out and go in and change th elocks and put all his gear in the garden.

Last landlord that was brought to court over such an illegal eviction got €10,000 fine and I think had to allow the tenant to move back in.

djimi

LorraineMcFly wrote: »

Im a landlord myself and registered and pay tax. I have done so called illegal evictions before for scumbag tenants and i would not hasten to do it again. Never had an ounce of a hassle from it , never been reported, as the tenants knew they where in the wrong. Anyway where an elderly parent is concerned i certainly wouldnt be held to ransom by a scum tenant. change the locks and get him out.

Youve been lucky that you havent been reported, but you come up against someone who does report you and you will find yourself in trouble. You cannot just turf someone stuff outside and change the locks, no matter what they have done or how they have acted. There are laws in place on how you must handle an eviction, and if you have no followed them and you find yourself having to answer for your actions then you are likely to land a big fine.

Your advice is not helpful to the OP.

Kosseegan

djimi wrote: »

Youve been lucky that you havent been reported, but you come up against someone who does report you and you will find yourself in trouble. You cannot just turf someone stuff outside and change the locks, no matter what they have done or how they have acted. There are laws in place on how you must handle an eviction, and if you have no followed them and you find yourself having to answer for your actions then you are likely to land a big fine.

Your advice is not helpful to the OP.

The o/p is not asking about a tenant. She is asking about a licencee. He has the same status as aguest in a hotel.

djimi

Kosseegan wrote: »

The o/p is not asking about a tenant. She is asking about a licencee. He has the same status as aguest in a hotel.

I thought we established earlier in the thread that this person was a tenant, not a licensee.

BostonB

the_syco wrote: »

Last landlord that was brought to court over such an illegal eviction got €10,000 fine and I think had to allow the tenant to move back in.

Do you have a link to this.

the_syco

BostonB wrote: »

Do you have a link to this.

Only one from the UK, but I'm 99% sure that there was a case over here that was successful. Shall get it, as I remember getting one before.

BostonB

I think the Op should obey the letter of the law to cover their butt. While I read through the judgements on PRTB, and also heard lots of 2nd stories from agents and LL's I've had dealings with. decisions going against the LL for this seem pretty thin on the ground, despite its being often commented on here on boards. Unfortunately obeying the letter of the law can cause huge cost to a LL. The law really doesn't care about that. But you need to do everything by the book initially.

Aye Bosun

http://public.prtb.ie/2011%20Disputes/Tribunals%202011/TR05.DR1006.2009/Tribunal%20Report.pdf
Here a determination order from the PRTB for an illegal eviction, where landlord changed the locks and turfed the tenants cloths out the road. The tenant received €1800 for damages to his propert and €3000 damages for the illegal eviction. In fairness it had to go all the way to the high court but the tenant also had their legal fees paid.

odds_on

How about:
DR114/2009 €10,000 for the illegal eviction and the retained security deposit of €1,300, Total €11,300 to tenant.

DR214/2008 €5,000 for the unlawful termination of tenancy, €5,000 in respect of the loss of the tenants possessions, €3,111 for the replacement of her personal belongings Total €13,111 to tenant.

DR1546/2008 Two tenants, to first tenant €7,000 for the unlawful termination of the tenancy, and the security deposit of €750 having allowed for arrears of rent in the sum of €443.48 and to second tenant, €6,603.86 being damages of €7,000 for the unlawful termination of the tenancy, overpayment of ESB Bill of €136.46 and the security deposit of €900 having allowed for arrears of rent in the sum of €1,432.60

Builderfromhell

odds_on wrote: »

How about:
DR114/2009 €10,000 for the illegal eviction and the retained security deposit of €1,300, Total €11,300 to tenant.

DR214/2008 €5,000 for the unlawful termination of tenancy, €5,000 in respect of the loss of the tenants possessions, €3,111 for the replacement of her personal belongings Total €13,111 to tenant.

DR1546/2008 Two tenants, to first tenant €7,000 for the unlawful termination of the tenancy, and the security deposit of €750 having allowed for arrears of rent in the sum of €443.48 and to second tenant, €6,603.86 being damages of €7,000 for the unlawful termination of the tenancy, overpayment of ESB Bill of €136.46 and the security deposit of €900 having allowed for arrears of rent in the sum of €1,432.60

Thanks for that Odds.
seems to me LL is out of pocket whether they do things legally or take their own action. I can't see how LLs or Tenants benefit from the current system. How many house owners prefer to leave their houses empty and for sale rather than risk all this hassle, thereby reducing supply of good property and more choice to tenants.

BostonB

If you look at the decisions very few are like that. The majority of them, are against tenants for damage non payment of rent, and claims for return of deposits NOT upheld. That said there's a good amount of LL being made to return deposits. I don't see any where the tenant was re-instated in the property. So it can't be that common.

If the LL had not evicted the tenant, how much rent would they have lost considering the time it took these decisions to be made. Its arguable that it balances out the cost of the fines. Whereas they may never recover the rent in arrears from a bad tenant.

That said its costs nothing to follow the letter of the law and follow all procedures to a point. Indeed it may be worthwhile to return a deposit and write any moneys owed to get a tenant out of a property. But I wouldn't hand over money until the tenant was out of the property.

yellowlabrador

Could you get in touch with the local mental health team? If he has suffered from mental health issues, he must be known to the services and he's obviously a risk to himself and others? Maybe a skilled mental health nurse can negotiate and maybe find out what the issues are. He might have stopped medication or be agitated for other reasons. Maybe a local doctor can help you or the local district nurse? He doesn't seem to have a next of kin.

BostonB

There may be data protection issues with that

odds_on

BostonB wrote: »

If you look at the decisions very few are like that. The majority of them, are against tenants for damage non payment of rent, and claims for return of deposits NOT upheld. That said there's a good amount of LL being made to return deposits. I don't see any where the tenant was re-instated in the property. So it can't be that common.

If the LL had not evicted the tenant, how much rent would they have lost considering the time it took these decisions to be made. Its arguable that it balances out the cost of the fines. Whereas they may never recover the rent in arrears from a bad tenant.

That said its costs nothing to follow the letter of the law and follow all procedures to a point. Indeed it may be worthwhile to return a deposit and write any moneys owed to get a tenant out of a property. But I wouldn't hand over money until the tenant was out of the property.

http://public.prtb.ie/2009%20Disputes/DO_April_09/624.2008.pdf

Ref: DR624/2008
In the matter of [.....] (Applicant Landlord) and [....... and .......] (Respondent Tenants) the Private Residential Tenancies Board, in accordance with section 121 of the Residential Tenancies Act 2004, determines that:

− The Respondent Tenants shall pay €22,150 to the Applicant Landlord immediately, being rent arrears due up until 2 March 2009 in respect of the tenancy of the dwelling [.......] and the
Respondent Tenants shall forthwith hand over vacant possession of the above premises to the Applicant Landlord.

− The Respondent tenant shall also pay any further rent outstanding from 2 March 2009 at the rate of €2,000 per month, unless lawfully varied, and any other charge as set out in the terms of the tenancy agreement for each month or part thereof, until such time as they have vacated the above dwelling.

This Order was made by the Private Residential Tenancies Board on 1 April 2009.

Whether the landlord was paid by the tenants we don't know. This is the highest adjudication awarded to a landlord that I have come across but there may be higher. In fact the top 6 highest awards that I have read about are to landlords, the 7th spot is to a tenant and is the award DR1546/2008 quoted in post #25

The_Conductor

Ok guys, we're getting very technical here.

OP- in short- do absolutely everything by the book, no shortcuts, and get all the t's crossed and i's dotted to ensure its 100% above board. Use the links above as guidance.

(very good info there guys, when I get a chance I may ringfence some of the posts from this thread and elsewhere into a general information thread on difficult tenants/lodgers)

S.

Victor

BostonB wrote: »

There may be data protection issues with that

Providing the information one-way is unlikely to be a problem.

zef

"He is a long term unemployed and recently has seemed depressed and agitated.
Last night he knocked on her door at 9.30 demanding his rental deposit back as he needed the money now but hes not leaving till sept. He got very agressive and hostile called her ignorant"

To me this sounds different from 'scum', he sounds unwell.
If he was dodgy, I am sure your mum nor you would have let him move in in the first place.
People with Mental Health issues can be fine for months, years, then have an 'episode'.
And sadly many have families who are 'fed up' of getting a phone call from the Gardai, landlord, friends, community mental health teams when the person does have a relapse.
This isn't your Mum nor your problem to deal with, it should be his family/ friends/ support network. (going on the premise that he is unwell mentally and this is causing the out of charachtar behaviour)
I have been in the same situation myself, some years ago I informally let a room to a friend who promptly went off his meds for bipolar, and it took 7 gardai to remove him from the garden where he had been out shouting at the radio one morning from 5am and had my kitchen knives out there with him ("to practice knife-throwing")
If it gets worse in any way i would advise you to ring the Gardai, they took him, whereas the Mental Health people I had called the day before in regard to bizarre / abusive behaviour just called up 'for a chat' and left him lodging at mine.