Is IT TIME TO FOLLOW THE BRITS????

FANTAPANTS

Just wondering do you think it was time to follow the way the british army are moving. They are removing full time soldiers and using the T.A when they are needed and are saving millions upon millions by doing it this way.I think it could work if the RDF were trained up to standard by full PDF training companys. The way are country is at the minute i dont think it would be a bad call
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/9076527/Territorial-Army-not-fit-for-new-role-warn-Generals.html

DipStick McSwindler

This post has been deleted.

FANTAPANTS

http://ufohunterorguk.com/2012/02/12/extinct-the-british-army-the-systematic-destruction-of-the-whole-of-britains-identity-and-power/

OS119

feeney92 wrote: »

Any Links To This?

its called 'FutureForce 2020' - it sees the BA regular strength fall to 80,000, with the reserves increased to about 30,000.

its decent peice of work, but imv, it will be superseeded by the 2015/2020 SDSR's, which will probably reduce the Army much further - down to 3 MR Brigades and one Airborne Brigade, rather than the FF2020 plan of 5 MR Brigades and one Airborne Brigade.

the bit that is of interest to the RDF/PDF issue is that reservists will for about 30% of the field army, and much more importantly that the Army will be structured in such as way as make any long term, large scale deployment impossible without the use of reservists.

E2A: the OP's link suggests he's a loon. why, oh why, do i always respond to the loons...

DipStick McSwindler

This post has been deleted.

ruserious

Introduce employment protection for reservists and start to weigh down heavily on those uncommitted.
Get rid of the waste/empire builders and begin more professional courses.
After about 5 years of this, you would begin to see some RDF people capable of slipping into PDF roles without much difference to their full time comrades. Over time, the RDF would be more trusted to complete tasks assigned now to PDF.
Then you can start talking on this thread again.

FANTAPANTS

ruserious wrote: »

Introduce employment protection for reservists and start to weigh down heavily on those uncommitted.
Get rid of the waste/empire builders and begin more professional courses.
After about 5 years of this, you would begin to see some RDF people capable of slipping into PDF roles without much difference to their full time comrades. Over time, the RDF would be more trusted to complete tasks assigned now to PDF.
Then you can start talking on this thread again.

you could fully train RDF in 6months and have them up to speed.... can never see the government agreeing to employment protection though

bwatson

OS119 wrote: »

its called 'FutureForce 2020' - it sees the BA regular strength fall to 80,000, with the reserves increased to about 30,000.

its decent peice of work, but imv, it will be superseeded by the 2015/2020 SDSR's, which will probably reduce the Army much further - down to 3 MR Brigades and one Airborne Brigade, rather than the FF2020 plan of 5 MR Brigades and one Airborne Brigade.

the bit that is of interest to the RDF/PDF issue is that reservists will for about 30% of the field army, and much more importantly that the Army will be structured in such as way as make any long term, large scale deployment impossible without the use of reservists.

E2A: the OP's link suggests he's a loon. why, oh why, do i always respond to the loons...

It's quite laughable isn't it? The Ministry of Defence continues to explain this restructuring as a way of increasing the flexibility, capability and efficiency of the army in the 21st century. They are doing this by cutting it from 8 brigades to 6! Thats just the way to increase capability in an ever more hostile and uncertain world. Its a disgrace. Those government ministers who are ensuring the British Army is defeated from within are a national embarrassment!

The fight with the taliban is almost over (if Dave is to be believed) yet this new paper is more or less telling us that we are restructuring our military to be more capable of fighting - the taliban! The sheer ineptitude would make you cry if you weren't already laughing from utter bemusement.

Time to say goodbye to any armour and heavy artillery that remains too - that is completely going. In future, regardless of the threat faced, we best hope that the (depleted) infantry and recce regiments will be able to bring about victory.

On a slightly different note - it is interesting to see that battalions from the Royal Regiment of Scotland and the infantry regiments of Northern England are far more likely to be chopped than those from the historically more undermanned southern regiments. Sadly, I think the MoD need to start acting upon the likely scenario that Scots will shortly be a seperate entity from the UK altogether. I'd hate to see what the military will look like in 10 or so years following the succession of the Scots and further defence reviews - 50,000 or so, and a navy comprised of a single carrier and about 4 escorts?

The only hope left is that this conservative government - disloyal to the end - are replaced by a government who understand just how unstable and dangerous the modern world is, and reverse these barbaric cuts accordingly!

cruasder777

bwatson wrote: »

It's quite laughable isn't it? The Ministry of Defence continues to explain this restructuring as a way of increasing the flexibility, capability and efficiency of the army in the 21st century. They are doing this by cutting it from 8 brigades to 6! Thats just the way to increase capability in an ever more hostile and uncertain world. Its a disgrace. Those government ministers who are ensuring the British Army is defeated from within are a national embarrassment!

The fight with the taliban is almost over (if Dave is to be believed) yet this new paper is more or less telling us that we are restructuring our military to be more capable of fighting - the taliban! The sheer ineptitude would make you cry if you weren't already laughing from utter bemusement.

Time to say goodbye to any armour and heavy artillery that remains too - that is completely going. In future, regardless of the threat faced, we best hope that the (depleted) infantry and recce regiments will be able to bring about victory.

On a slightly different note - it is interesting to see that battalions from the Royal Regiment of Scotland and the infantry regiments of Northern England are far more likely to be chopped than those from the historically more undermanned southern regiments. Sadly, I think the MoD need to start acting upon the likely scenario that Scots will shortly be a seperate entity from the UK altogether. I'd hate to see what the military will look like in 10 or so years following the succession of the Scots and further defence reviews - 50,000 or so, and a navy comprised of a single carrier and about 4 escorts?

The only hope left is that this conservative government - disloyal to the end - are replaced by a government who understand just how unstable and dangerous the modern world is, and reverse these barbaric cuts accordingly!

The nature of conflict has changed, there is no big enemy out there any more, the Russians are also running down their military.

The Chinese are taken care of with nuclear weapons.

Hence why the BA is becoming a smaller expeditionary force able to deloy very fast, with a large helo fleet, so is the Royal Navy, its going from being a navy that hunted soviet subs with large numbers of destroyers to one which has helicopter carriers and a large helo fleet.

The future is going to be small, fast interventions in unstable countries, get in, topple the dictator by supporting local factions, look after national intrests and get out.

As opposed to large tank battles, naval battles or even tens of thousands of troop depolyments to places like Iraq and Afghanistan.

The UK has got its fingers burned in such long term boots on the ground deployments.

cruasder777

"The rest of the TA, from what I've heard, is like the RDF."

....I wouldnt go that far lol.

groundshaker

Whatever about the TA increasing in size, I think it would be an absolute waste of time even attempting to increase RDF numbers in favour of PDF troops. What's the point pumping more resources into an organisation that'll never be utilisied. On another note, in general, are those in the RDF even fit enough to be put through the more intensive training that I've no doubt Pdf units undertake

Poccington

FANTAPANTS wrote: »

you could fully train RDF in 6months and have them up to speed.... can never see the government agreeing to employment protection though

Where do all the RDF troops come from?

The last available figures I saw, off the top of my head, had the number of RDF troops who qualified for grat at below 3,000.

Does the RDF has a place in the DF? Should it be utilised more and not treated like the bastard child of the PDF? The answer to both is yes.

Will it replace the PDF? No.

Poccington

FANTAPANTS wrote: »

Just wondering do you think it was time to follow the way the british army are moving. They are removing full time soldiers and using the T.A when they are needed and are saving millions upon millions by doing it this way.I think it could work if the RDF were trained up to standard by full PDF training companys. The way are country is at the minute i dont think it would be a bad call
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/9076527/Territorial-Army-not-fit-for-new-role-warn-Generals.html

Where will these full PDF Coy's come from?
Who will carry out the DF's day to day role's throughout Ireland?
Who will administer the RDF troops day to day?
Where will the axe fall, Privates? NCO's? Officers?
How will it affect the DF's capability to do jobs as it's tasked?


The Brit's may be axing full time soldiers but they'll still have 80,000 full time troops with Reservists being brought upto just over one quarter of the full time forces strength.

FANTAPANTS

Poccington wrote: »

Where do all the RDF troops come from?

The last available figures I saw, off the top of my head, had the number of RDF troops who qualified for grat at below 3,000.

Does the RDF has a place in the DF? Should it be utilised more and not treated like the bastard child of the PDF? The answer to both is yes.

Will it replace the PDF? No.

could agree more with you

TheBigLt

Personally I think the DF should rethink its overseas plan altogether. Deploy units rather than put together soldiers from all over a brigade. That way it is easier to incorporate reserve units into overseas operations. Step by step train each reserve unit up to sufficient DF standards. I think it is easier for platoons etc who work and train daily with each other to deploy. Same goes when you try to integrate reserve units into permanent units. Integration should be quicker and easier.

DipStick McSwindler

This post has been deleted.

TheBigLt

feeney92 wrote: »

Well the UN are sending observers into Syria, which could possibly mean a Peacekeeping for for the future, so possibly the PDF could be going there, maybe they'll allow RDF to serve overseas here

Don't know man, can't really see it happening. I think if the UN were going to put troops on the ground in Syria they would have done it well before now. Observers aren't really worth much, just an easier way for the UN to show they aren't turning their backs on the situation.

arybvtcw0eolkf

feeney92 wrote: »

Well the UN are sending observers into Syria, which could possibly mean a Peacekeeping for for the future, so possibly the PDF could be going there, maybe they'll allow RDF to serve overseas here

Why would we send the RDF oversea's when there's never a shortage of volunteers from PDF units?.

In fact there's a major shortage of places for PDF soldiers who wish to serve oversea's, and this is their bread and butter too.

Salvation

The RDF is a political entity.

It has zero bearing in the real world, it is an absolute waste of taxpayers money and is a job for the boys for the political appointees of the cadre staff.

In a nut shell it is a joke.

Sending them overseas really,it is full of walter mittys and general idiots.

You want a real reserve, scrap the current crap, recruit them on the same lines as the PDF fitness, interviews etc and direct entries like in the TA.

This current setup is a drinking club full of unfit fat and walter mitty type muppets.

We had these morons in PDF recruit platoons and had to deprogram them from bull**** mode to reality and most of them ending up leaving before they completed basic training.

You can't compare the TA to the RDF as it is like saying a Nissan Micra could outrun a Aston Martin Vanatage

galwaycyclist

Salvation wrote: »

The RDF is a political entity.

It has zero bearing in the real world, it is an absolute waste of taxpayers money and is a job for the boys for the political appointees of the cadre staff.

In a nut shell it is a joke.

Sending them overseas really,it is full of walter mittys and general idiots.

You want a real reserve, scrap the current crap, recruit them on the same lines as the PDF fitness, interviews etc and direct entries like in the TA.

This current setup is a drinking club full of unfit fat and walter mitty type muppets.

We had these morons in PDF recruit platoons and had to deprogram them from bull**** mode to reality and most of them ending up leaving before they completed basic training.

You can't compare the TA to the RDF as it is like saying a Nissan Micra could outrun a Aston Martin Vanatage

If the RDF is in that state, then it is in that state because that is what suits the PDF. PDF "reality" comes from an institutional perspective that often appears equally divorced from the real world. If push came to shove, it might be that the average taxpayer on the street would percieve more value in a better resourced RDF than continuing to fund "a mini great power" PDF whose main apparent function is to garrison posts left behind by the former colonial power.

ruserious

Salvation wrote: »

The RDF is a political entity.

It has zero bearing in the real world, it is an absolute waste of taxpayers money and is a job for the boys for the political appointees of the cadre staff.

In a nut shell it is a joke.

Sending them overseas really,it is full of walter mittys and general idiots.

You want a real reserve, scrap the current crap, recruit them on the same lines as the PDF fitness, interviews etc and direct entries like in the TA.

This current setup is a drinking club full of unfit fat and walter mitty type muppets.

We had these morons in PDF recruit platoons and had to deprogram them from bull**** mode to reality and most of them ending up leaving before they completed basic training.

You can't compare the TA to the RDF as it is like saying a Nissan Micra could outrun a Aston Martin Vanatage

That is unfair. There is fitness tests to get into the NSR and afaik, the new recruit syllabus for the entire RDF has mandatory fitness modules too. The old image of the FCA/ASM is changing.

Salvation

As I said scrap it and rebuild from the ground up, no more wastage and get value for money.

Have you seen the state of some of them in the RDF.

If you cut it by 50%, recruit them correctly, train them correctly and make them the same as the TA you then have a reserve, at the moment you have a bunch of non effective people wearing uniforms.

And then after a few years and maybe, they could go overseas like other reservists do.

But at moment it is a clear political setup of who you know and what you know and the majority of cadre staff(s) are well in arse lickers they havent done a day of soldiering

Morpheus

Im RDF
Im not unfit
Im not fat
Im not a walter mitty
Im not a full time soldier but I damned well do my best with the resources made available to me for training and equipment and Ive worked as part of full time units in exercises etc and have not had to be hand held throughout and was treated the same as my PDF counterparts. Whilst I agree with your sentiments about recruit / train properly, I take offence at your sweeping comments that

Sending them overseas really,it is full of walter mittys and general idiots.

You want a real reserve, scrap the current crap, recruit them on the same lines as the PDF fitness, interviews etc and direct entries like in the TA.

This current setup is a drinking club full of unfit fat and walter mitty type muppets.

We had these morons in PDF recruit platoons and had to deprogram them from bull**** mode to reality and most of them ending up leaving before they completed basic training.

Ive had to do the same fitness tests as PDF to get on my courses for the last two years, Ive had to do distance learning to fill in the fulltime training that we cant do in the RDF due to manday limitations. Ive managed to fit all of this in around my fulltime work.

There are good and bad units, the RDF main problems include some of those youve mentioned PLUS standardisation not being implemented by ALL units.

however, , drinking club? not in my unit, we take part in dry courses and camps except for the very last night before we head home.

There are more of us out there like me than you know and frankly im so pi$$ed off after reading some of your comments, that Id probably be banned if I was to write any more.

Final point: Any failings that the R.D.F. has as an entity can be laid SQUARELY at the door of its parental organisation, Its my opinion that too many are (wrongly) worried that fully funded and operational, VIABLE reserve would damage the future of the entire full time establishment instead of augmenting it. .. and turkeys wont vote for christmas.

Salvation

Morphéus wrote: »

Im RDF
Im not unfit
Im not fat
Im not a walter mitty
Im not a full time soldier but I damned well do my best with the resources made available to me for training and equipment and Ive worked as part of full time units in exercises etc and have not had to be hand held throughout and was treated the same as my PDF counterparts. Whilst I agree with your sentiments about recruit / train properly, I take offence at your sweeping comments that



Ive had to do the same fitness tests as PDF to get on my courses for the last two years, Ive had to do distance learning to fill in the fulltime training that we cant do in the RDF due to manday limitations. Ive managed to fit all of this in around my fulltime work.

There are good and bad units, the RDF main problems include some of those youve mentioned PLUS standardisation not being implemented by ALL units.

however, , drinking club? not in my unit, we take part in dry courses and camps except for the very last night before we head home.

There are more of us out there like me than you know and frankly im so pi$$ed off after reading some of your comments, that Id probably be banned if I was to write any more.

Final point: Any failings that the R.D.F. has as an entity can be laid SQUARELY at the door of its parental organisation, Its my opinion that too many are (wrongly) worried that fully funded and operational, VIABLE reserve would damage the future of the entire full time establishment instead of augmenting it. .. and turkeys wont vote for christmas.

Do it as a job and as a means for making a living and all these hobby type aspirations will soon go.

As for you yes you and a very small minority might be unique but the large majority are wasting money.

It has no function, it has no real role, it is a drain on resources.

And I think the PDF would welcome a real reserve, so men are no doing 3 duties a week, spending half your life on escort or going down to that ****hole in Portlaoise.

As I said build from the ground up, smaller numbers and real training and remove the fat..you then give the PDF more scope to send more overseas and have less operating on regimental duties...

Morpheus

fair enough, however in its current guise, its not much of a drain on resources... the budget is a paltry amount and all this talk of if the RDF was scrapped barracks would stay open, well thats just utter bo!!ox too.

if you have to start eating your own tail to stay alive then there's something seriously wrong.

The whole approach should be to look at foreign reserve models and base our own on the most effective based on a DEFINED ROLE. No integrated defined role = continuity as it is.

However I caution against scrapping it... look at our history of defence related changes, you know full well that we operate in an environment of - if something is temporarily done away with for evaluation, improvement, etc, it is usually ends up being a permanent loss.

Poccington

Haha.

Have you seen the state of people in the RDF? Have you seen the state of some of the heads walking around with black berets? We're not exactly a force full of machines.

Stop cribbing about Portlaoise, duties, escorts etc. yeah, it's ****e but it has nothing to do with the RDF and it's not the RDF's fault. There's so many duties because for years, the PDF continued to delude itself into thinking it could ever fully man 3 Bde's or that there was a need to keep open a stupid amount of barracks'. Only now that they're seeing sense with barracks closures and the re-org is happening, troops will reap the benefits in terms of their workloads.

The RDF could be a major asset to the PDF but quite frankly, there's nobody in positions of power willing to give it a crack. Integration went tits up because of faults by both the PDF and RDF.

RDF lads are going and fighting in the BA, getting commissioned from Sandhurst etc. so let's not act like they couldn't do the job over here with the proper training.

Don't give it all that lark about "A better RDF means more troops overseas and less troops doing duties" because it's nonsense. We have one large mission on at the minute and it's being downsized soon enough. As above, there's so many duties because there's too many barracks, too many units and not enough troops. That can't be blamed on the RDF or overseas.

I say all the above as a serving member of the PDF.

OS119

Poccington is entirely correct, this is an organisation that can't send 6 people to a patrolling exercise in Wales - the idea that it would become 3 Cdo Bde without the cross-dressing if only it could get rid of 2000 people who do foot drill on tuesday nights and who cost less than the PDF spends on extra-large trousers is self-deluding fantasy of the highest order.

Salvation

Poccington wrote: »

Haha.

Have you seen the state of people in the RDF? Have you seen the state of some of the heads walking around with black berets? We're not exactly a force full of machines.

Stop cribbing about Portlaoise, duties, escorts etc. yeah, it's ****e but it has nothing to do with the RDF and it's not the RDF's fault. There's so many duties because for years, the PDF continued to delude itself into thinking it could ever fully man 3 Bde's or that there was a need to keep open a stupid amount of barracks'. Only now that they're seeing sense with barracks closures and the re-org is happening, troops will reap the benefits in terms of their workloads.

The RDF could be a major asset to the PDF but quite frankly, there's nobody in positions of power willing to give it a crack. Integration went tits up because of faults by both the PDF and RDF.

RDF lads are going and fighting in the BA, getting commissioned from Sandhurst etc. so let's not act like they couldn't do the job over here with the proper training.

Don't give it all that lark about "A better RDF means more troops overseas and less troops doing duties" because it's nonsense. We have one large mission on at the minute and it's being downsized soon enough. As above, there's so many duties because there's too many barracks, too many units and not enough troops. That can't be blamed on the RDF or overseas.

I say all the above as a serving member of the PDF.

Obviously your in Dublin and not the border areas where a soldier is a duty machine, then again the likes of the 2 and 5 BN only had a little jaunt to the border durning the troubles and made a big deal about it, whilst the rest of us in the 27 and former 29 BN's did up to 100 hour weeks and didnt get duty money and pitful border allowance...

And thats 14 years of being inside the gates, I dont have much time for the RDF as this is a job and not a hobby...

But everyone is entitled to their opinon.:rolleyes:

Morpheus

well look who threw their toys out of the pram!!!

We all have axes to grind mate, im working in my line of work full time and yet these poxy contracters swan in and get paid far more than me for doing the same job...

By the way, you see the RDF as being my hobby... if I wanted a hobby id collect stamps, again, your entitled to your opinion, as for your other gripes, well thats life, suck it up or else do something about it,

My opinion is that whingeing because someone chooses to volunteer to be part of the reserve defence forces and sucks up the price of a new pair of pregnant pants for "volunteering" a couple of weeks of the year to soldier (because thats all the govt will ALLOW them to do).... or that some other full timer was lucky enough to be stationed in a "cushy" (as you see it) unit during the troubles, isn't going to make your situation any better.

Just because you are sometimes confronted at the gate by some improperly dressed froot loop with color blindness and a penchant for wearing a mushroom instead of a beret, or by an overweight grizzled old RDF muppet in DPM, who couldnt tell a percussion cap from a fly off lever, nor tell you what EDIP means, and who managed to fall through the cracks BEFORE the fitness tests etc were introduced ... doesnt mean the rest of us are poxy bags of sh*te also... we all feel the SAME way too... some units may allow this carry on, my own doesnt... most of us admire those of you who have chosen the military as a full time career and most of the younger lads will probably try to get into it as a career in the future.

A lot of us come from military families and are WELL AWARE of the financial burdens our friends/families are straining under without the power of a union to aid them. We feel your pain but if you REALLY think disbanding the RDF will financially aid ANY LINE SOLDIER in the PDF you need your bonce looked at.

Hey, if the peoples republic of cork ever rebels against the state, at least you'll make some cash back if you're sent down there!!!

Salvation

Morphéus wrote: »

well look who threw their toys out of the pram!!!

We all have axes to grind mate, im working in my line of work full time and yet these poxy contracters swan in and get paid far more than me for doing the same job...

By the way, you see the RDF as being my hobby... if I wanted a hobby id collect stamps, again, your entitled to your opinion, as for your other gripes, well thats life, suck it up or else do something about it,

My opinion is that whingeing because someone chooses to volunteer to be part of the reserve defence forces and sucks up the price of a new pair of pregnant pants for "volunteering" a couple of weeks of the year to soldier (because thats all the govt will ALLOW them to do).... or that some other full timer was lucky enough to be stationed in a "cushy" (as you see it) unit during the troubles, isn't going to make your situation any better.

Just because you are sometimes confronted at the gate by some improperly dressed froot loop with color blindness and a penchant for wearing a mushroom instead of a beret, or by an overweight grizzled old RDF muppet in DPM, who couldnt tell a percussion cap from a fly off lever, nor tell you what EDIP means, and who managed to fall through the cracks BEFORE the fitness tests etc were introduced ... doesnt mean the rest of us are poxy bags of sh*te also... we all feel the SAME way too... some units may allow this carry on, my own doesnt... most of us admire those of you who have chosen the military as a full time career and most of the younger lads will probably try to get into it as a career in the future.

A lot of us come from military families and are WELL AWARE of the financial burdens our friends/families are straining under without the power of a union to aid them. We feel your pain but if you REALLY think disbanding the RDF will financially aid ANY LINE SOLDIER in the PDF you need your bonce looked at.

Hey, if the peoples republic of cork ever rebels against the state, at least you'll make some cash back if you're sent down there!!!

Not disbanding (reducing) and making more efficient....

Then giving these people an actual role.

But it will never happen as there is no political will and no money !!!

Morpheus

fair point, i missed that in my rant. thats all that most of us - that I know - in the RDF want.

those that dont want this, hold us back and to be honest they wont pass any fitness or capability tests etc that come up in the future for their military career and thus wont progress....

you see it with Stds and PNCO courses each year. a Bde will 50 students at the prelim weekend - 45 at the MOI block - 40 pass MOI and only 25 pass the fitness test to return for the tactical block of which only 15 - 20 will pass due to injuries, wuss outs, actually failing a test (which should make any 3 star ashamed of themselves if theyve had the appropriate training) and sometimes even mental trauma at the thoughts of having to actually hike out carrying a bergan webbing weapon and full ammo...

THAT weakness disgusts me but then again, hardship and attaining reasonable fitness levels for all members are part of my own units ethos, we have 3 PTL's and more on the way hopefully this year. a lot of us are involved in team sports or go to the gym regularly outside of the unit too. Thats all that we can do with our spare time.