Training/racing v dieting

fat bloke

Just interested to hear a couple of thoughts/perspectives on this. I've been reading up about this iDave diet, I think I came across it on one of the training log threads here. Seems to me to be an Atkins of sorts but without a lot of the saturated fats.

Anyway, it's something I've wondered about before - cutting out carbs for a cyclist is like giving Michael Schumacher a jerry can of diesel. It's surely going to severely effect performance. Everytime I go out on the bike, it's not eggs and lentils I have in me back pockets, it's pure, raw, uncut carbs carbs carbs! :pac:

Has anyone tried to eliminate carbs and continue training, and how did that work out for you?

As an aside, in looking for a diet to stick to for a while I've noticed my 8 year old daughter isn't carrying any weight. So I was thinking maybe I could just eat what she eats... so that's coco-pops for breakfast, a bite of half a bagel for elevenses, small bowl of pasta for lunch, thimble of peas and some more simple carbs for dinner, and maybe some meat, followed by a big bowl of ice-cream. Hot chocolate and toast with chocolate spread before bed. -Y'know, apart from the total absence of caffeine and alcohol, it's not a bad deal

kennyb3

How about an all round balanced diet, with appropriate portion size, eaten consistently with little junk. I know it sounds mad but it does work.

For me that means something like

Breakfast

2/3 eggs and slice of toast 3/4 days a week, porridge the other days with nuts and banana thrown in

11am

Fruit - Usually a banana

1pm

2 brown bread sandwiches stuffed full of meat and little bit of cheese (some mayo or colslaw in there too). Or often its couple of bagels with similar additions

Hand full of nuts

3pm - more fruit

6pm - half bowl of cereal before a spin. (or even a bagel with some jam)

8/8.30 pm - Dinner (Fish and veg, spagbol,steak etc)

9pm - small bar of choc or crisps.

Plenty of water. No soft drink. 4/5 bottles of beer on a sat night. One take away every 2/3 weeks.

Would only go for bars or gels on long weekend cycles.

Injured at present (8months now) so eating less but maintaining weight (although losing muscle :mad:).

joker77

Plenty of good information over here in the Nutrition and Diet forum on what you should / shouldn't be eating in general

This sticky in particular - Nutrition 101 is well worth reading.

Personally, I dropped about 10kgs last year by eating better. Not really dieting, it actually felt like I was eating more rather than less - but what I did do was cut out wheat - no bread or pasta. Was very strict on it for a while, and felt a whole lot better. Substitute with porridge oats, brown rice or potatoes. It makes lunches more work... no sandwiches / rolls / bagels / wraps / baps / buns / pastries...

So - along with cutting out the bread and wheat, significantly increase the amount of fruit / veg / raw nuts you are eating, in general. More fish, steak, eggs. Cut out the junk food.

My breakfast / pre-cycle meal consists of this:
1 x Grapefruit

1 x Shake:
1 scoop whey protein
1 large mug porridge oats
1 heaped teaspoon each of linseeds, wheatgerm, honey
Water
Blended, into a pint glass, drink

1 x espresso

That keeps me going for well over and hour on the bike, but I start eating bananas / bars before I get hungry, and have little glucose in the bottle to keep the energy topped up.

In general - for me - complex carbs before exercise (porridge oats / brown rice), simple carbs during (sugars - dextrose etc), protein + simple carbs immediately after.

fat bloke

kennyb3 wrote: »

How about an all round balanced diet, with appropriate portion size, eaten consistently with little junk. I know it sounds mad but it does work. .

Ah yes. "But why don't you just stop drinking then?" said the doctor to the alcoholic.:rolleyes:

Damn you for making me have to make explicit what I presumed to be implicit, but of course the reason is that I don't have the maddeningly facile prudence, sensibility and self-control of the perpetually skinny. I can't take a square off a bar of chocolate and put the rest back in the fridge for tomorrow or the day after. Hence the need for a stricter imposition of slightly silly dietary regime that restricts whole food groups :pac:

seamus

Forget fad diets, low-carb, no-carb, paleo, atkins, blah blah blah.
They're all just low-calorie diets with different packaging. Somewhere down the line someone is using your confusion so they can sell you something.

If you want to lose weight, then the only thing that matters is calories. Forget about carbs, protein and fat. From a weight-loss perspective it doesn't matter if your daily calories come from eating two bags of chipper chips or a shopping trolly filled with carrots*. If you eat less than you burn, you will lose weight.

Changing your level of carb/fat/protein intake is for people who have very specific training goals which require specific additional intake. They're not long-term sustainable eating plans and eventually you'll start eating normally again and the weight will go back on because you haven't built up a proper habit.

If you want to lose weight, count calories. Yes, it's boring and annoying and sometimes it seems a little obsessive. But it works. And ultimately it works out easier than analysing every piece of food to ensure that it doesn't contain more than 3.44ug of processed fine carbs, or whatever the latest fad has decided is the way to go.

Eat white bread, enjoy the odd chinese, go out with the lads for a few dirty pints. Just count the calories and eat less than you burn. You will lose weight. As long as you don't have one of those insane eating habits that consist of only chips & beans every day, then your nutritional requirements will largely look after themselves.
When calorie counting, you naturally shy away from junk food because you'll notice that two mars bars contains a dinner's worth of calories but you're not even remotely satisfied afterwards.

You don't really need to integrate your exercise into your diet. What works for me is operating on the basis that the exercise isn't happening. So I don't eat more when I get off the bike or say, "Ah shure a kebab is fine, I did 100km today". Well, at least I try to operate on that basis.
Anything consumed on the bike doesn't count. But for an average 2 hour spin, you shouldn't need more than one energy drink and/or one energy-type bar. Arrange to eat one full meal like lunch or dinner once you get home and all will work out.

AstraMonti

Whatever you do allow yourself at least one cheat-meal per week (meaning if you want to eat a burger go have it without feeling sorry about it). Over restricting food groups can have a negative effect on your physchology and push you into places you really don't want to go.

smacl

fat bloke wrote: »

I can't take a square off a bar of chocolate and put the rest back in the fridge for tomorrow or the day after. Hence the need for a stricter imposition of slightly silly dietary regime that restricts whole food groups :pac:

That all sounds worryingly familiar. The only way I can satisfactorily control eating junk is by not buying junk. Luckily my lack of self control in that regard is largely offset by my laziness, so the apples in the fruit bowl beat the walk around the corner to the shop, and if there's no beer in the fridge then and only then does the kettle go on. If I was going for a lower carb diet, I'd probably look at the paleo diet, but more because I like the food than any other reason. Having shared space with co-workers on the atkins diet in the past, and if you go down that route maybe buy a few night lights to leave lit around the house, or as a bare minimum leave the pilot light on on the oven.

kennyb3

fat bloke wrote: »

Ah yes. "But why don't you just stop drinking then?" said the doctor to the alcoholic.:rolleyes:

Damn you for making me have to make explicit what I presumed to be implicit, but of course the reason is that I don't have the maddeningly facile prudence, sensibility and self-control of the perpetually skinny. I can't take a square off a bar of chocolate and put the rest back in the fridge for tomorrow or the day after. Hence the need for a stricter imposition of slightly silly dietary regime that restricts whole food groups :pac:

I think you just have to find out what works for you. For example i ve a sweet tooth, always have and always will and literally cant sit down for my eveing cup of tea without something or i feel like im depriving myself/on a starvation diet. Therefore i allow myself one small bar of choc a day or have 2/3 rich-tea biscuits (120kcals) with the cup of tea. That satisfies the cravings.

Also i really find extra water and extra protein help with cutting out cravings.

ROK ON

AstraMonti wrote: »

Whatever you do allow yourself at least one cheat-meal per week (meaning if you want to eat a burger go have it without feeling sorry about it). Over restricting food groups can have a negative effect on your physchology and push you into places you really don't want to go.

My dad uses that philosophy. He is type 1 diabetic and has to be careful regarding nutrition. He is generally fit, but would say the he is diabetic 5 days a week. He takes the weekend off.

C3PO

I'm also cursed with the "Sweet Tooth"! I recently came out in sympathy with my 9 year old who was giving up sweets for Lent on the orders of his teacher in school. No sweets or biscuits for 6 weeks (apart from a few Marietta with a cup of tea!!) and I lost 3 kilos! The extra large Cadbury's egg never knew what hit it on Easter Sunday!

El Vino

Read books like the diet trap, unless you actually are a clinical nutritionist how can you actually know that all Calories are equal. Almost as important as quantity is the insulin response certain foods trigger, this is what causes the body to store excess calories as Fat. The idave diet is not a low carb diet, pulses contain tons of carbs and you can eat as much as you like of them. It has been done to death on Singletrack world however I am living proof that it works as I took my Body Fat % from 22% to 8.6% (lab verified not crappy scales) and lost 20kg following the diet over a year. When I cycled I took simple carbs like energy gels as that is what the diet says to do otherwise I avoided all simple carbs except on the cheat day.

Harrybelafonte

RPL1 wrote: »

I'm also cursed with the "Sweet Tooth"! I recently came out in sympathy with my 9 year old who was giving up sweets for Lent on the orders of his teacher in school. No sweets or biscuits for 6 weeks (apart from a few Marietta with a cup of tea!!) and I lost 3 kilos! The extra large Cadbury's egg never knew what hit it on Easter Sunday!

Similar here. Cut out all junk for one week. Stayed off bike and away from gym, but ended up walking about 5km a day. Lost 2kg in a week.

Back in gym now, which tbh, has a massive affect on my appetite.

Two things I've heard though (and I'm going to guess the sweet toothed amongst us may empathise). Without a decent amount of carbs everyday I get very moody, iritable really, bit of chocolate and I perk right up. Then heard a nutrionist on the radio mention that some people can suffer psychologically if they allow their sugar levels to drop too far. Doesn't mean you can eat chocolate all day, but it is something to be aware of.

Also, recently read that one of the mistakes cyclists make is eating too much fter a ride. Even though we need to replace a large number of lost calories, that we often over estimate how to replace them and eat too many calories.

May be true, may not, but makes some sense to me anyway.

AstraMonti

El Vino wrote: »

Read books like the diet trap, unless you actually are a clinical nutritionist how can you actually know that all Calories are equal. Almost as important as quantity is the insulin response certain foods trigger, this is what causes the body to store excess calories as Fat. The idave diet is not a low carb diet, pulses contain tons of carbs and you can eat as much as you like of them. It has been done to death on Singletrack world however I am living proof that it works as I took my Body Fat % from 22% to 8.6% (lab verified not crappy scales) and lost 20kg following the diet over a year. When I cycled I took simple carbs like energy gels as that is what the diet says to do otherwise I avoided all simple carbs except on the cheat day.

Is that the don't eat any fruit diet? I find it very weird.

el tel

Yesterday my food intake was 3 Toffee Crisps, 4 x 2-finger KitKats and an M&S microwave cannelloni. Works for me.

lennymc

i found the eat less carbs than you burn thing to work best for me, along with not having sweet stuff in the house, and not buying crisps. Lost about 23kg now since september, havent been starving myself, have been eating more fruit, and watching portion sizes and working on a maximum of about 2000 calories a day. Most days its less, but i will still have a chinese and a few pints, or a burger or whatever.

lalorm

I don't eat so many carbs on easy days, but post hard effort/race races, I take on more. I'm also a firm believer of taking protein shakes daily and after training/racing. So between training and watching what I eat, I've not lost weight, but I've reduced body fat. I guess the reason for not loosing weight is the protein which has resulted in increased lean muscle mass in the legs. Down from 16.5% body fat in January to 14.5% now. Have to become more strict and reduce the fat more so fingers crossed.

fat bloke

What protein shake thing would you recommend? I've never liked the idea of them, but I'm coming around to it. I reckon they're the job for taking that razor edge off your post-spin hunger, you know the kind that has half the sausages under the grill eaten while you're waiting for them to be even half cooked.

C3PO

fat bloke wrote: »

What protein shake thing would you recommend? I've never liked the idea of them, but I'm coming around to it. I reckon they're the job for taking that razor edge off your post-spin hunger, you know the kind that has half the sausages under the grill eaten while you're waiting for them to be even half cooked.

I've started to blend a glass of slimline milk, a banana and some chocolate powder (drinking chocolate!) and leave it in the fridge before I go out on the bike! I drink it as soon as I get home and it definately takes the edge of my hunger and hopefully helps recovery too! After a long/hard spin I've been known to eat all around me for the rest of the day which I've been trying hard to avoid recently!

lalorm

fat bloke wrote: »

What protein shake thing would you recommend? I've never liked the idea of them, but I'm coming around to it. I reckon they're the job for taking that razor edge off your post-spin hunger, you know the kind that has half the sausages under the grill eaten while you're waiting for them to be even half cooked.

I take Optimum Nutrition (ON) After Max and the moment, but I've also take ON 2:1:1 recovery which tastes great. I can't get enough of the stuff when I have it. in the morning I take either ON 100% Gold Standard Whey or Platimum Hydro builder. I never used to use them much, but I've seen and can feel the difference with them. They are not cheap, but together with training, it's worked for me.

Here's a link to the irish site for ON... http://www.optimumnutrition.com/ie/

Tom Cruise

I have been taking silver diet pills and i have lost 8lbs in 2 weeks.
And i have not even started training yet.You can get them in boots chemist..

fat bloke

lalorm wrote: »

I take Optimum Nutrition (ON) After Max and the moment, but I've also take ON 2:1:1 recovery which tastes great. I can't get enough of the stuff when I have it. in the morning I take either ON 100% Gold Standard Whey or Platimum Hydro builder. I never used to use them much, but I've seen and can feel the difference with them. They are not cheap, but together with training, it's worked for me.

Here's a link to the irish site for ON... http://www.optimumnutrition.com/ie/

Is that every morning? And is that it like, is that your breakfast? Or is it only on training days?

Briain O Loinsigh

I lost a bit of weight over the last few months and just basically stopped eating white carbs. I got the advice in a health shop when I was starting off ,stick to eating brown carbs ,pasta ,bread and rice.

Personally I think the heavier built you are naturally ,the more protien you'll need to keep the muscles fed. So I've tended to stick to turkey ,chicken and brown bread during the day in work.
Also drink a lot of water ,but lately I've been worried about drinking out of plastic bottles because of the plastics etc ,so looking at buying a good filter now.

chakattack

lalorm wrote: »

I take Optimum Nutrition (ON) After Max and the moment, but I've also take ON 2:1:1 recovery which tastes great. I can't get enough of the stuff when I have it. in the morning I take either ON 100% Gold Standard Whey or Platimum Hydro builder. I never used to use them much, but I've seen and can feel the difference with them. They are not cheap, but together with training, it's worked for me.

Here's a link to the irish site for ON... http://www.optimumnutrition.com/ie/

Sure is good stuff! Used to have some discount codes but they're expired now. Anyone????

colm_gti

fat bloke wrote: »

What protein shake thing would you recommend? I've never liked the idea of them, but I'm coming around to it. I reckon they're the job for taking that razor edge off your post-spin hunger, you know the kind that has half the sausages under the grill eaten while you're waiting for them to be even half cooked.

I'm taking Kinetica whey with added glucose that you buy at the baking section in tesco/dunnes/etc. 1 scoop of protein gives 20g of protein, so I add 40g of glucose to give a 2:1 mix of carbs to protein, definitely finding it helps me after a tough spin.

lalorm

fat bloke wrote: »

Is that every morning? And is that it like, is that your breakfast? Or is it only on training days?

I start work very early, so I have a shake and a coffee first thing in the morning and eat breakfast after 1 hour in work I usually have a boiled egg and a bowl of porridge. Then a banana or other fruit as a snack before lunch. For lunch, I'll have whatever is going, Chicken, veg etc. Another banana snack after lunch, and if I'm racing, another shake before heading out on the bike.

chakattack

Lalorm,

Where do you get the coconut water? Why do you take it? Electrolytes?

Lumen

lalorm wrote: »

(at 23:20) I start work very early

We should do a "how much do you sleep" thread.

jameverywhere

As someone with celiac disease, I can't help but obsess over nutrition because I need to religiously read all labels and be extremely careful not to contaminate myself with my poison (gluten). I also cannot have any dairy or soya products because of the damage celiac has done to my gut.

What I'm trying to do is cut out all processed sugars, because fructose actually becomes fat in your body before consumed fat or other types of sugars do. Of course high-fructose corn syrup is out, but also normal table sugar, sucrose, is 50% glucose 50% fructose. Apparently fructose is only beneficial to the body after or during a very difficult and physically demanding workout. It shouldn't be eaten at other times. I have a HUGE sweet tooth though, so I am weaning myself off sugars by eating fruits. They contain a lot of natural sugars, but the sugars are packaged with fibre in such a way that your body can handle it better, and you don't end up eating as much sugar to begin with.

(Actually though because I wasn't absorbing nutrients due to celiac, I don't need to lose weight--I actually was needing to gain some for the past year or so and am finally at a nice size. I would prefer to trade some of my fat for muscle though. Unfortunately with my sore hamstrings I'm not exercising nearly as much as I want, or need, to be.)

I replaced all the wheat in my diet with rice, which I have a bit too often even so. White carbs like rice and potatoes aren't, like, evil, but more beneficial carbs would be winter squash, swedes/rutabagas, and beans/pulses. They contain less starch but still have the carbs your body needs. For someone with a weak digestive system like me, an overload of starches is not beneficial, and I should really cut the rice for a few months but I'm too lazy since rice is so easy to make @_@

fat bloke

I bought a dirty great big tub of Kinetica whey protein in cyclesuperstore on sunday. I was too stingy to pay 15 euro for the plastic shaker bottle, which was probably a mistake, it's a hoor to mix:rolleyes:

Anyone got any anti-puke tips? It's only day two, I had a one scoop shake yesterday for breakfast with a milk and water mix and this morning I tried a scoop and a half, and an hour and a half later it's still touch and go as to whether it's going to stay down - and I've a pretty strong stomach generally!

I feel really full, so it works alright, but I wasn't intending on a binge/purge extreme weight loss cycle!

Briain O Loinsigh

fat bloke wrote: »

I bought a dirty great big tub of Kinetica whey protein in cyclesuperstore on sunday. I was too stingy to pay 15 euro for the plastic shaker bottle, which was probably a mistake, it's a hoor to mix:rolleyes:

Anyone got any anti-puke tips? It's only day two, I had a one scoop shake yesterday for breakfast with a milk and water mix and this morning I tried a scoop and a half, and an hour and a half later it's still touch and go as to whether it's going to stay down - and I've a pretty strong stomach generally!

I feel really full, so it works alright, but I wasn't intending on a binge/purge extreme weight loss cycle!

I get them shakers for free where I buy my protein. Also I get PHD diet whey in white chocolate flavour and it's like drinking a white magnum

fat bloke

Briain O Loinsigh wrote: »

I get them shakers for free

Giz one!

C'mon. From one Loinseach to another!

Briain O Loinsigh

I've actually thrown out a couple ,they tend to stink after a while even if you wash them. The last one I got is a PHD shaker and it has a metal wire ball that does the mixing ,essentially you could use this inside any container.
When I'm in getting stuff again I'll get one for you ,no problem. Don't buy them because I've gotten about five of them for nothing.

seamus

Shaker?

Water bottles are 2 euro. Work fine as shakers...

Briain O Loinsigh

The kinetica stuff is actually a bit lumpy when mixing it ,hard enough to mix in a shaker.

Been meaning to try this stuff out below ,not sure if it's for athletes only

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWRqWe-YDyc

fat bloke

Briain O Loinsigh wrote: »

When I'm in getting stuff again I'll get one for you ,no problem. Don't buy them because I've gotten about five of them for nothing.

Sweet!

seamus wrote: »

Shaker?
Water bottles are 2 euro. Work fine as shakers...

Nah man. That's what I used this morning and I ended up with a sore arm and a sticky globular mess.

hmmm, I could probably phrase that better...

Scuba_Scoper

I use the Kinetica Recovery stuff (strawberry flavour) and mixing it can be a bitch if you follow the on-box instructions. I generally double up on the amount of liquid (to around 350-400 mls) and it mixes fine in a water bottle using 1.0-1.5 scoops of the stuff.

jameverywhere

fat bloke wrote: »

I bought a dirty great big tub of Kinetica whey protein in cyclesuperstore on sunday. I was too stingy to pay 15 euro for the plastic shaker bottle, which was probably a mistake, it's a hoor to mix:rolleyes:

Anyone got any anti-puke tips? It's only day two, I had a one scoop shake yesterday for breakfast with a milk and water mix and this morning I tried a scoop and a half, and an hour and a half later it's still touch and go as to whether it's going to stay down - and I've a pretty strong stomach generally!

I feel really full, so it works alright, but I wasn't intending on a binge/purge extreme weight loss cycle!

don't.... don't eat something that makes you want to vomit, man. that's your body tryin' to tell you something.

fat bloke

jameverywhere wrote: »

don't.... don't eat something that makes you want to vomit, man. that's your body tryin' to tell you something.

Yeah. It's also shouting "lose some weight, fatty" at me.

I gotta tell one of those voices to shut the fcuk up.:pac:

Briain O Loinsigh

Have to say I was warned from the start to drink lots of water after drinking protein ,it's known to be heavy enough for the body to process ,especially the kidneys.

colm_gti

fat bloke wrote: »

I bought a dirty great big tub of Kinetica whey protein in cyclesuperstore on sunday. I was too stingy to pay 15 euro for the plastic shaker bottle, which was probably a mistake, it's a hoor to mix:rolleyes:

Anyone got any anti-puke tips? It's only day two, I had a one scoop shake yesterday for breakfast with a milk and water mix and this morning I tried a scoop and a half, and an hour and a half later it's still touch and go as to whether it's going to stay down - and I've a pretty strong stomach generally!

I feel really full, so it works alright, but I wasn't intending on a binge/purge extreme weight loss cycle!

€15 for a shaker?! Jaysus! They do help greatly with the mixing though, I have a spare one you can have to get ya started if you want!

It's just something you get used to though, I find when I take one in the morning it tastes rotten, I just get it down the hatch and try to not taste it, but the one after a hard cycle with 45g of glucose in it tastes like heaven! If you've eaten any regular chocolate before it too, it tastes mankey in comparison, maybe wait til after you drink it to eat anything tasty :rolleyes:

fat bloke

Yeah, I've a tankard of water in front of me right now. I think my usual mugs of tea and coffee weren't helping.

maloner

On the general topic of counting calories, I've used loseit.com in the past and recently got back into it.

You basically enter all the food you eat and exercise you do, and it presents you with graphs/reports on calories eaten, break down of where your calories came from (carb/fat/protein) and other stuff like that.

Well laid out site and iphone app for logging what you eat. Lets you set goals, create meals, add foods etc and as you use it, it remembers what you ate before which makes it easier to find stuff in the future.

To get the competitive spirit in you going you get awarded "badges" for good progress and the like.

I've used the site, I've no relation to the site at all.

kennyb3

@ fat bloke, try this

I stick a scoop in with a glass of super milk. Tastes like a chocolate milkshake. It mixes very very easily - much better than anything i ve used before - just a simple twirl with a fork and its fine.

You can get it in elverys

leftism

I'm often amused at the number of cyclists i see up around Wicklow on weekends, with 2 bottles of Lucozade on their frame and their back pockets full of jellybabies or jaffacakes. The same folks are often seen stopped in Laragh for a mid training snack and coffee... Its very likely that they've taken in more calories than they've expended on the ride. So what was the point of all that training?

I was at a Chris Boardman talk a few years ago and the one line that stuck with me was: "I never set foot on a bike without knowing what the exact goal of the training session was".

If the session is a 2 to 3 hr ride, then the goal is to improve aerobic endurance and potentially shed some excess body mass which is slowing us down. Aerobic endurance training is all about improving the efficiency of our engine. Under normal conditions, the human engine runs on a mix of carbohydrate and fat. A gram of fat releases 9 kcal of energy; over twice the energy content of carbs (4kcal.g-1)! So an engine that runs on a higher mix of fats will be much more efficient. The chassis will probably be lighter too, since all that burnt fat was only weighing down the frame. Win:win situation!

So how do we promote fat oxidation??? Through a combination of training and nutrition. 3 points worth thinking about:

1)HOW FAST: The exercise intensity we ride at can have a significant effect on fatty acid oxidation. Peak fat oxidation (Fatmax) can vary greatly from person to person, however it has been reported by several authors to occur at ~60% of VO2max in trained individuals (Achten et al., 2002; Bergman et al., 1999) . This intensity equates to ~70% HRmax.

2)HOW LONG: Essentially the longer the better. Provided you are not refuelling during the session, 2 hours should deplete glycogen stores to the point where fat oxidation will become upregulated. Training in this state is going to lead to positive adaptations towards fat oxidation. "But what about bonking?" i hear you all cry? So what? Bonking will only reduce your power to a level that is sustainable through fat metabolism (an intensity you should have probably been riding at already, if you're sticking to my 1st point). Training in a hypo-glycaemic state is not the big bad wolf! Racing in a hypo-glycaemic state is a different kettle of fish altogether...

3)HOW MUCH FUEL: We all know the top riders are consuming huge amounts during the major tours. Massive breakfasts and dinners! We can also see them constantly taking on extra energy during the race, via glucose drinks and foods etc. But does that mean we should be emulating them on our Sunday morning rides? Absolutely not!

We must remember that the nutritional strategy for training and racing are not the same. In a race, we are trying to slow down the rate of glycogen depletion in order to improve endurance and performance. In training we are often trying to do the opposite: deplete our glycogen stores! So we need to approach training nutrition from a completely different angle to racing.

There is a growing body of literature which suggests that training in a fasted state is the way to go (Van Proeyen et al., 2011; McConnell, 2009; De Bock et al., 2008). It has been shown to significantly improve aerobic efficiency via up regulation of fat oxidative processes. This will not only improve our endurance (by slowing the rate of glycogen depletion) but also improve cycling performance through enhanced body fat reduction. It can also theoretically increase aerobic power. The more oxidative metabolism at a given workload, then the higher the workload at which peak aerobic power occurs.

It is important however, to highlight that this argument only applies to endurance training. Threshold and anaerobic power training should never be performed in a fasted state. Also, this argument has nothing to do with post-exercise nutrition and recovery. Post-exercise nutrition should be immediate and sufficient to replenish resting glycogen stores as quickly as possible in order to recover and adapt!

Achten et al., (2002). Determination of the exercise intensity that elicits maximal fat oxidation. Med Sci Sports Ex 34(1) 92-97.

Bergman et al., (1999). Evaluation of exercise and training on muscle lipid
metabolism. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab 276 E106–E117.

Van Proeyen et al., (2011). Beneficial metabolic adaptations to endurance exercise in a fasted state. J Appl Physiol 110 236–245.

McConnell, G. (2009). Does training fasted make you faster? J Appl Physiol 106 1757–1758.

De Bock et al., (2008). Effect of training in the fasted state on metabolic responses during exercise with carbohydrate intake. J Appl Physiol 104 1045–1055.

(I can stick up links to these papers but google scholar the title and you should get them just as easy. Alternatively, you can PM me and i'll forward you the relevant papers)

seamus

leftism wrote: »

I'm often amused at the number of cyclists i see up around Wicklow on weekends, with 2 bottles of Lucozade on their frame and their back pockets full of jellybabies or jaffacakes. The same folks are often seen stopped in Laragh for a mid training snack and coffee... Its very likely that they've taken in more calories than they've expended on the ride. So what was the point of all that training?

I was at a Chris Boardman talk a few years ago and the one line that stuck with me was: "I never set foot on a bike without knowing what the exact goal of the training session was".

Well to be fair, not everyone out cycling around Wicklow on a weekend is out training. In fact I would hazard a guess that the majority are getting out for the sake of getting out, rather than training to be the next Chris Boardman.

Unless someone is eating quite a bit and not cycling much at all, then I wouldn't be quick to claim that they're eating more than they're burning. Conservatively, someone doing an easy ride through the hills will burn 600 kcals/hour. A two-hour ride then is about 1200 kcals. A bottle of lucozade is about 300kcals. So even two bottles of lucozade and a fistful of jaffa cakes wouldn't tip them over the edge.

However, it will somewhat nullify most of the calorie-burning benefit from the ride. The big error that a lot of people will make is to have two bottles of lucozade, a bag of jelly babies, a big slice of cake in Laragh, and then when they get home they have a big huge dinner because, "I earned it".

leftism

seamus wrote: »

The big error that a lot of people will make is to have two bottles of lucozade, a bag of jelly babies, a big slice of cake in Laragh, and then when they get home they have a big huge dinner because, "I earned it".

Don't forget the breakfast before they head out on the bike. Healthy breakfast (4-500cal) + moderated lunch (6-800cal) = 1000 - 1300 cal. The locuzade and jaffacakes are not the root cause but they are most certainly adding to the problem. I know quite a few cyclists that struggle to lose weight even though they are doing a relatively high volume of training. The underlying problem is blatantly obvious when you see their food intake...

fat bloke

Are you saying then Leftism that the idea (for weight loss) is to bonk, essentially, as quickly as possible and reach a point where your glycogen depleted system starts burning fat only and then train (albeit slowly) at that level then?

I kinda thought the idea was keep the glycogen up so that you can train hard/fast/long. And the real weight loss happened then over that day & the next as you rest & repair (& eat sensibly). ?

jameverywhere

Shouldn't there be some moderation here? Like, do a fasting training session once or twice a week, but not EVERY time ?

sled driver

jameverywhere wrote: »

Shouldn't there be some moderation here? ..........

Back seat moderating :eek:

leftism

jameverywhere wrote: »

Shouldn't there be some moderation here? Like, do a fasting training session once or twice a week, but not EVERY time ?

Just to clarify:

Under no circumstance should you attempt this type of training every day! Only specific endurance training sessions (1-3 times a week, 2-3 hour duration) should be approached in this way.

Billycake

Here's an extract from a Hunter Allen blog on the web. The article itself is to do with analysing a power file from George Hincapie but the extract below is along the lines of what Leftism is talking about I think (correct me if I'm wrong please Leftism). It does work, though it takes a while to get it right.

"Pro-tour riders and elite professionals have become incredibly efficient and economical with their internal body processes and external energy output. One of these is the ability to burn fat at a relatively high level of intensity. This ability is critical to succeeding in these longer events and ‘teaching’ your body to do this takes years of practice, training and careful nutritional planning. One of the tips that you can use to help your own body to burn more fat at a higher rate of energy output is through riding at your upper endurance pace for two hours BEFORE you have anything to eat for the day. Get up early, have some water and get straight on your bike and no eating until 2 hours into the ride(unless you are in imminent danger of bonking) and then at 2 hours start consuming protein and complex carbs in order to keep your body going and burning that fat. This is an ‘old school’ trick that actually works, but it does take time to ‘teach’ your body to burn fat. Give it a try this winter and spring."