The myth of Cantona

partyguinness

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17734402

I am sorry I just dont get the myth around Cantona. I am old enough to have watched the PL since day 1 and as a Leeds Utd supported I can remember winning the league in 1992 and the boast we got from Cantona's arrival.

Yes he was a very good player, clever and a game changer.

But I am sorry, the period Cantona played in England, English teams were rubbish in Europe. Cantona regularly (sorry, always) disappeared on the big European nights and did nothing on the international level.

I will give him credit for retiring when he did. I can remember quite clearly the CL semi-final against Dortmund in 1997. United were favourites over the 2 legs. The Germans increased the pressure and if ever Utd needed Cantona if was then and he was hiding. Keane was doing his best to beat them on his own.

At least he had the good grace to realise that he could not step up a level in Europe. He was a passenger in his last season and saw the writing on the wall...Utd brought in Sheringham who was far more effective.

He was a unique player in a pretty mediocre period of the PL but I am sorry I do not buy this notion that he was this fantastic world class player. He was not....IMO.

markie29

This is going to be fun

LuckyLloyd

The above shouldn't be a controversial opinion imo. He beat up on a league that was a ways behind Seria A at the time, and never made the same impact in European competition (or for the National team, though his career was cut short there).

He was obviously a very good player and did score some great goals. But he's far from an all time great.

Cantona's Collars

Eamon Dunphy is on boards:eek:

Xavi6

I concur, overrated

RayCon

This is gonna blow ...

kryogen

You are old enough to remember back then but you dont know why English teams were largely ****e in Europe? You forgetting the player restrictions?

Also, if you dont get why Cantona goes down as one the greatest to grace the league, well thats your own look out, you will be in the minority I imagine.

You know, I have actually re read your post properly and have to ask before I go any further, are you on a wind up?

stovelid

Players can be legends and loved by supporters of a particular club without having to figure in the great pantheon of players.

It's kind of a top trumps mode of assessment that seems to be creeping more into the forum.

kryogen

Xavi6 wrote: »

I concur, overrated

Thats not just what he is saying though, calling him overrated is different to what he is saying.

batm!ke

partyguinness

kryogen wrote: »

You are old enough to remember back then but you dont know why English teams were largely ****e in Europe? You forgetting the player restrictions?

Also, if you dont get why Cantona goes down as one the greatest to grace the league, well thats your own look out, you will be in the minority I imagine.

You know, I have actually re read your post properly and have to ask before I go any further, are you on a wind up?

Did that not apply to all teams across Europe???

homerjay2005

voted uniteds best player of all time,which is good enough for me really.

smashing player, and after alex ferguson, the biggest reason why united have dominated english football over the past 20 years. the most gifted player of his generation and the swagger and charisma he played with, was sensational.

considering the bitterness and age profile of some of the people on here, i wouldnt expect him to be appreciated by many on here.

LuckyLloyd

stovelid wrote: »

Players can be legends and loved by supporters of a particular club without having to figure in the great pantheon of players.

It's kind of a top trumps mode of assessment that seems to be creeping more into the forum.

The first part is very true. I get why Cantona is a Utd legend (and why he will be vociferously defended in this thread).

As for the second part, well it is somewhat silly to talk about the "best" player when you're comparing across massively different football contexts. But its fun, so why not?

Will I Amnt

partyguinness wrote: »

But I am sorry, the period Cantona played in England, English teams were rubbish in Europe. Cantona regularly (sorry, always) disappeared on the big European nights and did nothing on the international level.

I will give him credit for retiring when he did. I can remember quite clearly the CL semi-final against Dortmund in 1997. United were favourites over the 2 legs. The Germans increased the pressure and if ever Utd needed Cantona if was then and he was hiding. Keane was doing his best to beat them on his own.

Does not compute
English teams actually performed well considering the player restrictions.

Bodhisopha

Yeah, a United legend no doubt and rightly so is held in high esteem by United fans but not all that as a player. No better than Di Canio.

LuckyLloyd

homerjay2005 wrote: »

voted uniteds best player of all time,which is good enough for me really.

smashing player, and after alex ferguson, the biggest reason why united have dominated english football over the past 20 years.

I dunno, that Roy Keane fellah was a decent player imo. :pac:

RayCon

For me Bergkamp was a classier player.

GavRedKing

He wasnt over rated but in the same way he wasnt world class either.

He was a good player but rose tinted glasses really come into these things.

Utd fans will love him and proclaim him to be the best, their entitled to their opinion but its one I wouldnt share.


* Xavi6, see what you started with your EPL 20th Anniversary thread. :pac: :P

El Inho

yeah when ya really think about it is debatable.

but at the end of the day, he is a legend, regardless of why he is a legend. sure he may not have been the greatest player, and he may have black belted a palace fan, but all that aside, he was a character.

that goal where he just stood in celebration, looking around....thats why he is a legend.

now he is greatly overrated, and as stated here, that is different from the OP. But i think we all know what way this thread is going to go.

kryogen

This thread actually has me getting banned written all over it so Im out of here, let me just say

Cantona is not responsible for all English teams failure in Europe in the time period.

Saying he did nothing internationally is quite silly, what has Messi done? Ronaldo? Any English player?

His influence on teams has been backed up and salivated over by plenty of people not just United fans. His contribution to the league has been acknowledged by plenty of guys with a high standing in the game, it is not simply a United fan myth that he was a genius.

The assertation that he was a passenger in his final season is beyond ridiculous

Sheringham while being a very good player for us was nowhere near the level of what Cantona did for the club.

Good luck

partyguinness

Plus if he was so effing good and the "best player of his generation" (which is laughable IMO), he would have been playing in Italy of Spain.

Xavi6

homerjay2005 wrote: »

voted uniteds best player of all time,which is good enough for me really.

smashing player, and after alex ferguson, the biggest reason why united have dominated english football over the past 20 years. the most gifted player of his generation and the swagger and charisma he played with, was sensational.

Oh dear

considering the bitterness and age profile of some of the people on here, i wouldnt expect him to be appreciated by many on here.

Who had that in the Buzzword Bingo?

tallaghtmick

partyguinness wrote: »

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17734402

I am sorry I just dont get the myth around Cantona. I am old enough to have watched the PL since day 1 and as a Leeds Utd supported I can remember winning the league in 1992 and the boast we got from Cantona's arrival.

Yes he was a very good player, clever and a game changer.

But I am sorry, the period Cantona played in England, English teams were rubbish in Europe. Cantona regularly (sorry, always) disappeared on the big European nights and did nothing on the international level.

I will give him credit for retiring when he did. I can remember quite clearly the CL semi-final against Dortmund in 1997. United were favourites over the 2 legs. The Germans increased the pressure and if ever Utd needed Cantona if was then and he was hiding. Keane was doing his best to beat them on his own.

At least he had the good grace to realise that he could not step up a level in Europe. He was a passenger in his last season and saw the writing on the wall...Utd brought in Sheringham who was far more effective.

He was a unique player in a pretty mediocre period of the PL but I am sorry I do not buy this notion that he was this fantastic world class player. He was not....IMO.

Enough said,is your surname Bitterman by any chance?

Mr. Presentable

homerjay2005 wrote: »

1) voted uniteds best player of all time,which is good enough for me really.

smashing player, and after alex ferguson, the biggest reason why united have dominated english football over the past 20 years. the

2)most gifted player of his generation and the swagger and charisma he played with, was sensational.

considering the bitterness and age profile of some of the people on here, i wouldnt expect him to be appreciated by many on here.

1) To be fair, this is an insult to some truly great players. Best, Law, Irwin.

2) The most gifted at Man U perhaps - of his generation? Not a hope.

I have always been an admirer of his ability, but in truth he was mentally wanting, witness his poor performances for France and for Man U in Europe.

partyguinness

kryogen wrote: »

This thread actually has me getting banned written all over it so Im out of here, let me just say

Cantona is not responsible for all English teams failure in Europe in the time period.

Saying he did nothing internationally is quite silly, what has Messi done? Ronaldo? Any English player?

His influence on teams has been backed up and salivated over by plenty of people not just United fans. His contribution to the league has been acknowledged by plenty of guys with a high standing in the game, it is not simply a United fan myth that he was a genius.

The assertation that he was a passenger in his final season is beyond ridiculous

Sheringham while being a very good player for us was nowhere near the level of what Cantona did for the club.

Good luck

Now, well Utd did go on to win the CL in 1999 and a few other international titles with Sheringham so your last sentence is quite strange. Don't get me wrong, I am not a Sheringham worshippper but he was far more effective in Europe which is what Ferguson wanted.

When Ferguson signed Keane, he said to Keane, [paraphrasing] "We will win the league with or without you but with you we will win the CL"

The logic can be applied to Cantona but reveresed.

At best you can say Cantona brough Utd to a certain level, cld do no more and moved on as he was ineffective in Europe. Big problem was that he was too slow.

LuckyLloyd

Georghe Hagi and Hristo Stoichkov were of Cantona's generation by the way, if we want to talk about 'most gifted'.

Bodhisopha

kryogen wrote: »

This thread actually has me getting banned written all over it so Im out of here, let me just say

Cantona is not responsible for all English teams failure in Europe in the time period.

Saying he did nothing internationally is quite silly, what has Messi done? Ronaldo? Any English player?

His influence on teams has been backed up and salivated over by plenty of people not just United fans. His contribution to the league has been acknowledged by plenty of guys with a high standing in the game, it is not simply a United fan myth that he was a genius.

The assertation that he was a passenger in his final season is beyond ridiculous

Sheringham while being a very good player for us was nowhere near the level of what Cantona did for the club.

Good luck

They have both won at least one game in a major international tournament.

Cantona's Collars

I think I'll start a new thread: The myth of George Best..........Not controversial enough so I'll go for The myth of Steven Gerard.

LuckyLloyd

zerks wrote: »

I think I'll start a new thread: The myth of George Best..........Not controversial enough so I'll go for The myth of Steven Gerard.

Why would you do that? This is a valid topic - and timely given the 20th Anniversary of the EPL awards being on the way...

Will I Amnt

I don't think for one minute he was the best player of his generation but to disregard him the way some people are here is just silly.
His international career is being used as a stick to beat him with,he only played 45 games and scored 20 goals which isn't too shabby.

PFA player of the year and 3rd in the Ballon D'Or shows it wasn't just United fans that thought highly of him.

partyguinness

zerks wrote: »

I think I'll start a new thread: The myth of George Best..........Not controversial enough so I'll go for The myth of Steven Gerard.

LOL...funnily enough Gerard is another bugbear of mine...:D

stovelid

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

As for the second part, well it is somewhat silly to talk about the "best" player when you're comparing across massively different football contexts. But its fun, so why not?

It's fun but it ooften seems to supplant rational assessment and lends itself to intra-club bitching - no surprise, for example, that it's either a Liverpool or United player up for dsicussion.

I think Cantona was a great and significant player for United and personally one of my top 5 favourite players to wear the shirt but he definitely wasn't the greatest player of that generation. Hughes was one of the others so it's hardly a panteheon of greats.

Both of the above considerations co-exist easily in my mind and don't really require a tribunal

Liam O

markie29 wrote: »

This is going to be fun

RayCon wrote: »

This is gonna blow ...

batm!ke wrote: »

These posts are the most annoying thing about this thread.

I can see how people looking at the stats and not watching every United game would think that he wasn't that great. I was quite young at the time but when I was a bit older I watched the season review DVDs for that time about 20 times each. The fact that he was everything to do with United's first 2 league wins in that period as he brought the attitude and the swagger of a champion and played like someone who expected to win and this rubbed off on the rest of the team. He maintained a close enough to one in two goal record and also had great vision. Look at what happened when he got banned if you need to see justification for his influence.

Maybe he was no Messi or Ronaldo but he was still a top class player who would have fit in at any top club at the time and it was only his suspension that cost him a place in probably the best France team of all time where he got 20 goals in 45 appearances and if it wasn't for Zinedine Zidane replacing him he'd probably have been selected. Not a once in a lifetime player but a damn good player with great leadership who turned United from potential title challengers to probable title winners. His record for France shows that it was no fluke and he was a player who did it at the top level.

partyguinness

As regards the "best player of his generation" maybe if you never look outside the PL and Sky Sports is on 24/7 in the background.

Let's look at the period 1992-1997:

Hagi
Stoichkov
Baggio
Romario
Moller
Hassler
Bergkamp
Maradona (still floating about)
Boksic
Batistuta
Ronaldo
Zola

Anyone who would put Cantona before any of those players is....well...everyone is entitled to their opinion:cool:

markie29

Liam O wrote: »

These posts are the most annoying thing about this thread.

I can see how people looking at the stats and not watching every United game would think that he wasn't that great. I was quite young at the time but when I was a bit older I watched the season review DVDs for that time about 20 times each. The fact that he was everything to do with United's first 2 league wins in that period as he brought the attitude and the swagger of a champion and played like someone who expected to win and this rubbed off on the rest of the team. He maintained a close enough to one in two goal record and also had great vision. Look at what happened when he got banned if you need to see justification for his influence.

Maybe he was no Messi or Ronaldo but he was still a top class player who would have fit in at any top club at the time and it was only his suspension that cost him a place in probably the best France team of all time where he got 20 goals in 45 appearances and if it wasn't for Zinedine Zidane replacing him he'd probably have been selected. Not a once in a lifetime player but a damn good player with great leadership who turned United from potential title challengers to probable title winners. His record for France shows that it was no fluke and he was a player who did it at the top level.

Apologies i have just seen these types of threads descending into a farce.....and i agree with u on cantona.....name a team in the premier league who wouldnt have benefited from having him in the starting lineup? He was the best player in the league by a mile in its first 4-5 years.

efb

Big fish, small pond

partyguinness

markie29 wrote: »

Apologies i have just seen these types of threads descending into a farce.....and i agree with u on cantona.....name a team in the premier league who wouldnt have benefited from having him in the starting lineup? He was the best player in the league by a mile in its first 4-5 years.

I agree, in a mediocre league (struggling to catch up after the Heysel ban) he was the best and most charismatic player at the time (admittedly the competition was not hectic).

My issue is that in the context of world football at the time, he was not all that and was unable to step up on the European nights.

Dempsey

I dunno why player restrictions of European competition has been mentioned as a factor in Cantona's inability to step up in Europe. It was a competition rule, not a restriction on english clubs, and every club that competed were hindered equally.

Cantona is a cult hero, nothing more.

Liam O

partyguinness wrote: »

I agree, in a mediocre league (struggling to catch up after the Heysel ban) he was the best and most charismatic player at the time (admittedly the competition was not hectic).

My issue is that in the context of world football at the time, he was not all that and was unable to step up on the European nights.

Your argument seems to lack facts. You say he did nothing on the international level yet got 20 goals in 45 appearances and was made captain for a period. You say he disappeared on big European nights but can only show an example from a CL semi final. It's no coincidence that his move from Leeds to United brought the PL with him...

Just realised one of your arguments is that Sheringham was far more effective, gave me a good laugh

Sgt Pepper 64

partyguinness wrote: »

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17734402

I am sorry I just dont get the myth around Cantona. I am old enough to have watched the PL since day 1 and as a Leeds Utd supported I can remember winning the league in 1992 and the boast we got from Cantona's arrival.

Yes he was a very good player, clever and a game changer.

But I am sorry, the period Cantona played in England, English teams were rubbish in Europe. Cantona regularly (sorry, always) disappeared on the big European nights and did nothing on the international level.

I will give him credit for retiring when he did. I can remember quite clearly the CL semi-final against Dortmund in 1997. United were favourites over the 2 legs. The Germans increased the pressure and if ever Utd needed Cantona if was then and he was hiding. Keane was doing his best to beat them on his own.

At least he had the good grace to realise that he could not step up a level in Europe. He was a passenger in his last season and saw the writing on the wall...Utd brought in Sheringham who was far more effective.

He was a unique player in a pretty mediocre period of the PL but I am sorry I do not buy this notion that he was this fantastic world class player. He was not....IMO.

It wasnt just about his playing skills, it was his influence OFF and On the pitch that made him special.
"Even" as a Chelsea fan I can appreciate him and what he brought to the game.
He helped to chip away at the "english" mentality of the game and remove the blinkers to a different style of football, more based on flair than brut strength and helped opened the gates to more "foreign" players, mainly for the better

I wish he had been in my team

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/sport/markogden/100023597/how-eric-cantona-changed-english-football-forever-20-years-ago-today/

Vudgie

As a player he was obviously very good and had moments of brilliance, he lacked pace etc but to suggest that he was average is misguided.

Most importantly he was a cult hero at Man Utd which I think is very important at any club. Quite often the personalities and rapport with the fans can be of significant importance, along with ability of course. A team needs all sorts to function properly, a balance that Alex Ferguson seems to have an ability of consistently creating.

It is one of my uneducated misgivings about the likes of Moneyball that while taking account of personalities etc it focuses too much on the ideal one from a professional point of view.

He was a character, a figure head of a sort, etc and the premiership would have been a lot less interesting without him.

I will never forgive him for that FA Cup final goal against Liverpool though , and I don't think I would vote for him to be president if I was French!!!;)

partyguinness

Liam O wrote: »

Your argument seems to lack facts. You say he did nothing on the international level yet got 20 goals in 45 appearances and was made captain for a period. You say he disappeared on big European nights but can only show an example from a CL semi final. It's no coincidence that his move from Leeds to United brought the PL with him...

Just realised one of your arguments is that Sheringham was far more effective, gave me a good laugh

This thread is not about "facts". It's about opinions. BUt as you have asked how about this for a "fact" he never won a major (or even minor) international footballing trophy. There are not many top class players you can say that about. Maybe he was just unlucky!

Well as regards the 1997 CL semi-final, interesting that you have not denied it but that occasion was culmination of several European campaigns. He retired a few weeks later. Not sure how many other examples you would like but big matches are about big players and Cantona was hiding. It was quite sad and a shame.

Nobody here is denying that Cantona was a very good player and a game changer. He helped Utd win the title in '93 etc. Nobody is disputing that.

Drumpot

For me Cantona is and always will be a legend. What people consider a "world class player" is subjective. United hasn't win the league in 26 years and he was most definitely the catalyst for the success united still enjoy.

Paul Scholes also learned his trade and some great habits off Cantona and I'm sure he would disagree strongly with some of the pub waffle here. Any top player in the 90s playing for a good Italian or Spanish team had an advantage over English clubs coming to terms with getting back into Europe. Winning the cup winners cup didn't change that.

You need only look at moneybags city or liverpools Benitez to see winning the league after a prolonged period makes it harder and harder irrespective of talent. You need a character that defies logic who can bring a confidence to a dressing room that no amount of talent can bring. Cantona was and is rightly recognised by educated football fans as the catalyst for uniteds success. You just can't quantify the kind of influence Cantona had on those around him and for that alone he was a better player then others who might of been more techniclly gifted.

Funny people should mention bergkamp who was a failure at inter. I loved the player and think he is superb but by the flawed logic used to judge Cantona you would have to deduct to Dennis couldn't perform in the strongest league of its time (ridiculous logic).

In truth, united fans don't have anything to worry about. It doesn't really matter what "neutral" fans think because they didn't enjoy successes with Eric. Oh wait, he helped Leeds to their first title in decades and then moved to united, no conflict of interest from the op so!

You could put messi onto the united team in the early 90s and we would most likely not of done much better. It took ferguson a decade to build a squad good enough to challenge in the league and champo league. Even this barca team took over a decade to catch up with Madrid and it involved long term development.

Anyways, Cantona was no myth unless you are just looking for an excuse to knock a legend in their own right. He is a united legend, a united hero and helped Create the legacy that sir Alex has built. That's enough for me, the rest of you are entitled to your opinions.

eZe^

partyguinness wrote: »

As regards the "best player of his generation" maybe if you never look outside the PL and Sky Sports is on 24/7 in the background.

Let's look at the period 1992-1997:

Hagi
Stoichkov
Baggio
Romario
Moller
Hassler
Bergkamp
Maradona (still floating about)
Boksic
Batistuta
Ronaldo
Zola

Anyone who would put Cantona before any of those players is....well...everyone is entitled to their opinion:cool:

And even you forgot one of the best players of that era, Michael Laudrup.

LuckyLloyd

eZe^ wrote: »

And even you forgot one of the best players of that era, Michael Laudrup.

What a player!

Liam O

partyguinness wrote: »

This thread is not about "facts". It's about opinions.

Well as regards the 1997 CL semi-final, interesting that you have not denied it but that occasion was culmination of several European campaigns. He retired a few weeks later. Not sure how many other examples you would like but big matches are about big players and Cantona was hiding. It was quite sad and a shame.

Nobody here is denying that Cantona was a very good player and a game changer. He helped Utd win the title in '93 etc. Nobody is disputing that.

I'm done here. Your whole argument is based behind 1 bad game, others have made some valid points that I have argued but your argument really comes up quite short...

Bob the Seducer

The breakdown of Cantona's career in England is this:

Joins Leeds Utd for 2nd half of 91-92 season:
91-92 League Title (Leeds' first since 73-74)

Joins Man Utd in November 1992:
92-93 League Title (Utd's first since 66-67)
93-94 League Title
94-95 Banned for kung fu kick (Utd finish 2nd, a point behind Blackburn)
95-96 League Title
96-97 League Title

Retires from football aged 30.

For me, that record makes him far more than just a cult hero.

partyguinness

eZe^ wrote: »

And even you forgot one of the best players of that era, Michael Laudrup.

LOL...I was leaving myself wide open by doing up a short list like that without a qualification...:)

Will I Amnt

Dempsey wrote: »

I dunno why player restrictions of European competition has been mentioned as a factor in Cantona's inability to step up in Europe. It was a competition rule, not a restriction on english clubs, and every club that competed were hindered equally.

Cantona is a cult hero, nothing more.

It affected English clubs that bit more,Irish,Welsh and Scottish players were considered foreign and there was a sizeable amount of those nations involved in the English league.

Excellent player but did someone say he was voted utd's best player of all time? :eek:

Bloody hell, would love to know the age profile of those voters.

Also, the best player of his generation? That's even worse. There is life outside of England.

He wasn't even the best in England at that time ffs.

Paparazzo

homerjay2005 wrote: »

voted uniteds best player of all time,which is good enough for me really.

smashing player, and after alex ferguson, the biggest reason why united have dominated english football over the past 20 years. the most gifted player of his generation and the swagger and charisma he played with, was sensational.

considering the bitterness and age profile of some of the people on here, i wouldnt expect him to be appreciated by many on here.

It also shows you the age profile of people who voted in that poll. United greatest ever player? Nowhere near