Water meter charge

Nypd

We are going to have to pay for our water soon enough, but now it seems that Minister Hogan is going to put a €40 charge on the "FREE" meters that are being installed.
What's the people of Waterfords opinions on this ?

Dan133269

Nypd wrote: »

We are going to have to pay for our water soon enough, but now it seems that Minister Hogan is going to put a €40 charge on the "FREE" meters that are being installed.
What's the people of Waterfords opinions on this ?

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0417/breaking3.html
Some liar he is, Phil Hogan. Papers reported yesterday that he said it would be free.

batm!ke

I have to say this, and no-one take me the wrong way because I'm in no-way a politic savvy person but the way I saw things re: the household charge was this... the country needs money, I would have paid it but my estate was exempt from it. I felt it a civic duty to help the country and imo WCC seems to be doing ok with their funding recently so if any more money was to trickle down to them I'm sure they would have spent it well.

But...
there is no way that expecting us to pay for the meter (and/or installation) is fair in the slightest. The way I see it is if they want us to pay water charges then they can bloody well give us the meter and install it.

I would have thought the Government would have learned a lesson from the mess over the Household Charge... maybe not

CardBordWindow

I thought that the Household Charge was to pay for services provided by local Councils? Is the mains water not one of these services?

Tim the Enchanter

I recently built a house in the county. As part of the planning conditions i was told i had to connect to the mains water supply rather than drill a well. I ran a pipe approx 300 meters, the council then came and connected this pipe to the mains. They also installed a water meter at the time. The cost of this connection was €800. I will not be paying for it again.

blowtorch

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Multi-Jet-Water-Meter-Brass-5-8-x-3-4-Cubic-Feet-NEW-/290554403015?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43a66458c7


Enda/Phil - have a look on E-Bay. These are brand spanking new. You can pay by PayPal US$58 per meter. If you're really good at negotiations, you might be able to get them for US$ 40 based on large quantities.

Although, your idea of being good at negotiations, you'd probably pay US$ 500 each for them.

Prats.

Potential-Monke

Didn't pay the household charge, not paying for this. They want me to pay for water, make it drinkable and not full of lime. Then i'll pay for it, but i'm not paying for installation of a meter which they are saying is mandatory.

Dan133269

Potential-Monke wrote: »

Didn't pay the household charge, not paying for this. They want me to pay for water, make it drinkable and not full of lime. Then i'll pay for it, but i'm not paying for installation of a meter which they are saying is mandatory.

Whatever about the quality of water in Waterford, how do they expect people to pay for water in places like Clare and Galway where it is often literally undrinkable?

letsbet

The installation charge is pretty steep. However, I don't see the problem with paying for water if it isn't drinkable as surely if it's not drinkable then you won't be drinking it and therefore you won't run up a charge. I suppose people have no choice but to drink it so I'm being a bit pissy there I guess. It'd be nice to think that the money would go to improving our water supply and eliminate a lot of the wastage but I think we all know that that's not going to happen. It'll also be interesting to see what the 'free' allowance of water is i.e. how much you have to use before you start paying for it. A member of a certain community opened up the water cover outside our house and filled up a massive tank. We told us he was from the council but I don't think the council issue addidas tracksuits and vest tops to their employees. I'd say we'll see a lot more of that type of behaviour when the meters are in.

Sully

Water charges have been on the table for sometime in addition to the household charge. The household charge is to cover basic facilities from the council, but not water which is a much bigger task at hand. The idea behind the charge, which is to be ring fenced so it wont go towards other debt, is to make a serious investment in our shambolics of a water supply. Modernise the supply and make the supply much better (cleaner).

You are going to get a left argument that water is a basic human right and we shouldn't be charged for it. True, but its obvious the state simply cant (in good or bad times) cover such a massive investment which is needed. Businesses (even small businesses like B&Bs) have been charged water rates for sometime now - its not that new. The service is shocking, it breaks down easily and causes massive disruption for the public. The state cant afford and I don't think they every could afford to make the required investment to update the system and keep it up-to-date. Instead, people who use the supply should be asked to contribute towards its upkeep for the benefit of everyone. The system should be fair - if your a low usage user, its free. If your a bit high, keep the rates fair. If your a big user, expect a hefty charge.

Sadly, its looking like another PR fiasco / shambles. The fees for the service and how it will be paid hasn't been decided. Nor has any organisation who tendered for the service been selected. Everything is up in the air at the moment and I think everyone in government should keep mute until every detail has been confirmed. Because media will play to the confusion and dramatise it as much as possible and the government / civil servants will only make it worse by contradicting each other and adding even more confusion.

letsbet

Sully wrote: »

Sadly, its looking like another PR fiasco / shambles.

Understatement of the year. I wonder how much of the government's recent PR cock ups can be attirbuted to having two parties in government and how much is down to their plain incompetence. They're certainly not singing from the same hymn sheet.

rasper

€40 a year for 20 years , which increase as people get used to the idea of being shafted again, parasitic politicians and eu just seem to push and push until something snaps,
Time to put some real leaders into the dail and Europe and tell them enough is enough

MacGyver

Sully wrote: »

Water charges have been on the table for sometime in addition to the household charge. The household charge is to cover basic facilities from the council, but not water which is a much bigger task at hand. The idea behind the charge, which is to be ring fenced so it wont go towards other debt, is to make a serious investment in our shambolics of a water supply. Modernise the supply and make the supply much better (cleaner).

I would have assumed that one of the basic facilities was indeed water. If maintenence was done on pipes over the years then it wouldnt be in such a mess. What about all the pipes such as in Avondale which are no where near the minimum depth according to planning regs thats freeze every year. Will these be lowered.

All these charges being "ring fenced" with no actual end point, who's going to have to pay for the fencing charges? another stealth tax maybe?

Sully

letsbet wrote: »

Understatement of the year. I wonder how much of the government's recent PR cock ups can be attirbuted to having two parties in government and how much is down to their plain incompetence. They're certainly not singing from the same hymn sheet.

Partly that, partly the civil servants and partly just incompetence. A simple "No Comment" until everything is sorted. Now, expect the opposition to go bananas and say the government are behaving very badly because they are being dishonest and hiding such an important piece of information to the public. But, whats better? Saying nothing until its sorted and putting an end to the government being the cause of the nation getting concerned seems a bit better (but the media will create hysterics anyway with their "unnamed sources").

rasper wrote: »

€40 a year for 20 years , which increase as people get used to the idea of being shafted again, parasitic politicians and eu just seem to push and push until something snaps,
Time to put some real leaders into the dail and Europe and tell them enough is enough

Nothing confirmed but that rate seems shocking. As for electing "real leaders" - everyone of them will do the same, sadly, despite what they claim.

MacGyver wrote: »

I would have assumed that one of the basic facilities was indeed water. If maintenence was done on pipes over the years then it wouldnt be in such a mess. What about all the pipes such as in Avondale which are no where near the minimum depth according to planning regs thats freeze every year. Will these be lowered.

All these charges being "ring fenced" with no actual end point, who's going to have to pay for the fencing charges? another stealth tax maybe?

Water is a massive system, to be fair. The household tax has to go towards stuff like parks, roads, footpaths, public bins, public toilets etc. The household charge alone doesn't cover all that, its part funded by your tax also afaik. So how do you expect the charge to cover water in addition to everything else? Expect the state to make up the shortfall, which will be significant? Cant see it tbh.

Ask Fianna Fail why it wasn't ever maintained properly and why many estates flout the regulations. Could they have done it better? Its likely they would have had to bring in this charge anyway, during the good times, seeing as the cost of maintenance would have been very high and far to high for the state to cover it without some additional form of taxation.

How do you mean about no end point? The water charge will focus on everything connected to the water system. Its not designed to be used for banks, bailout pay back, paying the big cheques for civil and public servants etc. Its designed for paying for the upkeep of the system - upgrades, maintenance, wages, etc.

On a related note - the tender was awarded to Bord Gáis Eireann today. They will be responsible for the water system. Independent state owned.

bookworms

The responsibility for water services will be given over to another authority. The councils will have nothing further to do with water....hence the need to raise funds.

Nypd

They are robbing Peter to pay Paul yet Peter has to pay it back.
I think I can just about agree to paying a water charge provided the service is delivered well and the money is put to good use.
But paying for the fking meter is just wrong, its the same as ESB trying to charge us.

Noelly

Does it apply if you have your own well?

mike65

No reason why it should anyway the hoopla is not that exciting, no installation charge, standing fee and then whatever you use over the "free" allowance.

tiny timy

Clever, give it to an organisation that they intend selling off

Santan

Not sure if this is really relevant but what happens to the money when this company starts to produce huge profits as it probably will down the line, will it be used to pay back the bailout fund and as such be used as a nonprofit group, or are we going to get the same old thing with a corrupt regulator, that will sanction more price hikes on water rates, while they release profit forecasts, it’s just that we have not had this kind of charge in my lifetime so could we actually be able to see where this money will be spent, should be very easy for a government to trace.

mike65

Well what should happen is that revenue is used to repair, maintain and develop the water system so that half of everything doesn't end up in the earth

CantGetNoSleep

Water charges are an EU law, it is just that we have no meters to ever enforce them

stephenor

the money raised through house hold charge and way overpriced water meters,will in no way go to upgrade the water system but stright into the pocket of the imf and G.E.R.M.A.N.Y,TTHE PUPPET MASTERS

danjo-xx

When all these individual charges are added together, it's just 'RATES' by another name.

An Board Uisce or whatever it's called will come under the 'regularor' as regards pricing and that is the kop out the government wants in order when prices go up and up to say, well it's not us it's the Regulator that sets the prices.

Happy times ahead.... Not

mike65

Well if Rates hadn't been so cynically abolished by Fianna Fail in 1977 we'd have a far healthier tax base.

insight_man

Nypd wrote: »

We are going to have to pay for our water soon enough, but now it seems that Minister Hogan is going to put a €40 charge on the "FREE" meters that are being installed.
What's the people of Waterfords opinions on this ?

It wont work just like the household charge. Another stealth tax for anyone foolish enough to pay it. Local elections two years away, general election four years at most, this government will learn very quickly what people think of their charges.

insight_man

danjo-xx wrote: »

When all these individual charges are added together, it's just 'RATES' by another name.

An Board Uisce or whatever it's called will come under the 'regularor' as regards pricing and that is the kop out the government wants in order when prices go up and up to say, well it's not us it's the Regulator that sets the prices.

Happy times ahead.... Not

Too right! This is another version of the HSE where the government tries to put the blame on someone else..eh its not us, its them... kind of nonsense. I don't think the people will be so easily fooled this time round. I see u turns ahead.

insight_man

Nypd wrote: »

They are robbing Peter to pay Paul yet Peter has to pay it back.
I think I can just about agree to paying a water charge provided the service is delivered well and the money is put to good use.
But paying for the fking meter is just wrong, its the same as ESB trying to charge us.

Phil Hogan said today that if people don't pay they will be cut off. Is he on a different planet? Does anyone remember the last time that was tried...people just reconnected the supply time after time. FG needs to get rid of him before he brings the whole government down.

homolumo

Noelly wrote: »

Does it apply if you have your own well?

No thankfully. I have had to pay €2000 on maintenance for my well in the last few years so if the government handed me a bill for water I would be handing them one straight back.

Bards

Can the Govt make someone install a meter onto private property?

If I have to pay for water, than I want clean water without any chemicals added (Fluride for example)

Will there be an alternative to Irish Water?

Just like we can get Gas from the ESB or Electricity from Bord Gais etc?

How come the contract wasn't put out to tender. Surely this is anti-competitive and against EU rules.

Referendum Next Month - I'll be voting NO

wellboytoo

I hear a lot of people on radio saying "that water is a basic human right" where are they getting this from as an argument?

mike65

Bards wrote: »

Can the Govt make someone install a meter onto private property?

If I have to pay for water, than I want clean water without any chemicals added (Fluride for example)

Will there be an alternative to Irish Water?

Just like we can get Gas from the ESB or Electricity from Bord Gais etc?

How come the contract wasn't put out to tender. Surely this is anti-competitive and against EU rules.

How would a competitive market be achieved in water? Its hardly a practical proposition at a house by house level. Here is the current UK situation

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2008/nov/19/utilities-regulators

Bards

wellboytoo wrote: »

I hear a lot of people on radio saying "that water is a basic human right" where are they getting this from as an argument?

IIRC it is in a UN Charter that Ireland signed up to

edit

http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=35456&Cr=SANITATION

Cabaal

mike65 wrote: »

Well if Rates hadn't been so cynically abolished by Fianna Fail in 1977 we'd have a far healthier tax base.

Interestingly thats the thoughts on this site

http://www.workingnotes.ie/index.php/item/wn66-tax (found it via google)

Had rates not been removed they would have applied a cooling affect on the boom years....apparently.

Of course on the otherside of things you could suggest that rates + boom years would have meant we would have gotten into even more debt as we would have gotten used to having much more money then just the boom and overspend even more.

We'll never really know what could have happened, we just know now that we are spending more then we are taking in as a country and something has to change.

wellboytoo

Bards wrote: »

IIRC it is in a UN Charter that Ireland signed up to

edit

http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=35456&Cr=SANITATION

Yes but if you read it you would note it says "affordable" not free!

wellboytoo

Cabaal wrote: »

Interestingly thats the thoughts on this site

http://www.workingnotes.ie/index.php/item/wn66-tax (found it via google)

Had rates not been removed they would have applied a cooling affect on the boom years....apparently.

Of course on the otherside of things you could suggest that rates + boom years would have meant we would have gotten into even more debt as we would have gotten used to having much more money then just the boom and overspend even more.

We'll never really know what could have happened, we just know now that we are spending more then we are taking in as a country and something has to change.

The one thing is darn sure, if rates were still in force we would not see as many 6000 to 8000 square foot houses as we do at the moment.
I was talking to a guy the other day who was on the way to Roscommon to try and help a guy who is spending €1000 a month on kerosene to heat his 8000 sq ft house and swimming pool...ffs

Bards

Lets see.

We currently Pay PRSI, Income Tax, Universal Social Charge, Household Charge.

Not to mention - TV License, Road TAX, VAT, Insurance Levies, Excise Duty etc etc.

Why the hell do we have to pay any more charges. If the Govt./Civil Service can't run the country for the money which they take in. then the lot of them should be fired and replaced with someone who can.

How long before we start handing over our entire pay packets to the Govt?

wellboytoo

Bards wrote: »

Lets see.

We currently Pay PRSI, Income Tax, Universal Social Charge, Household Charge.

Not to mention - TV License, Road TAX, VAT, Insurance Levies, Excise Duty etc etc.

Why the hell do we have to pay any more charges. If the Govt./Civil Service can't run the country for the money which they take in. then the lot of them should be fired and replaced with someone who can.

How long before we start handing over our entire pay packets to the Govt?

Two different arguments there, I agree totaly that there are huge savings to be made in the public service, but first the civil service and the unions have to be tackled, this is not being done by the present Government.
The water charge as you call it is not a tax, it is a charge for water consumed as I read it, so don't use it don't pay it, or use less pay less, it is the only way to go.

Sully

Its very hard to challenge the unions, as your going to have an all out strike which will cause mass disruption. Its not just the unions but those under them also.

mike65

Bards wrote: »

Lets see.

We currently Pay PRSI, Income Tax, Universal Social Charge, Household Charge.

Not to mention - TV License, Road TAX, VAT, Insurance Levies, Excise Duty etc etc.

Why the hell do we have to pay any more charges. If the Govt./Civil Service can't run the country for the money which they take in. then the lot of them should be fired and replaced with someone who can.

How long before we start handing over our entire pay packets to the Govt?

TV licence for RTE not the government for a start.

2012 - expenditure €51.7bn revenue of €35bn, that's a €15bn gap

All those school teachers, nurses, council employees, civil sevants, child allowances, health cards, dole payments, hospitals, schools, etc need paying for.

wellboytoo

Sully wrote: »

Its very hard to challenge the unions, as your going to have an all out strike which will cause mass disruption. Its not just the unions but those under them also.

Agreed it is a blanket statement, but the work practices (sic) etc the ways of changing them, the constant need for commitees to convene to change the methodolgy of changing the toilet paper, is what I am addressing.
It needs a Ray Mc Sharry for two years of hard and decisive managment to tidy it up, and no political party has the cojones for that. The current crowd have a massive majority and should have hit the ground running , done all the hard stuff in the first two years and spent the next three currying favour with an eye on the election.
But that was never going to happen with a Labour element to the Gov.

Bards

mike65 wrote: »

TV licence for RTE not the government for a start.

2012 - expenditure €51.7bn revenue of €35bn, that's a €15bn gap

All those school teachers, nurses, council employees, civil sevants, child allowances, health cards, dole payments, hospitals, schools, etc need paying for.

and 4 years ago it was an €18Bn gap

so after 4 years of austerity, tax raising and cuts and probably taking about €10bn out of the economy, the gap only closed by €3Bn

total mismanagement of the economy and proof that you can not tax your way out of a recession.

all that these new taxes/charges is going to do is take away from peoples spending power and further dampen demand and lead to job losses and strains on the exchequer which will lead to more austerity etc.

wellboytoo

Bards wrote: »

and 4 years ago it was an €18Bn gap

so after 4 years of austerity, tax raising and cuts and probably taking about €10bn out of the economy, the gap only closed by €3Bn

total mismanagement of the economy and proof that you can not tax your way out of a recession.

all that these new taxes/charges is going to do is take away from peoples spending power and further dampen demand and lead to job losses and strains on the exchequer which will lead to more austerity etc.

And your solution is?

tiny timy

Bards wrote: »

Can the Govt make someone install a meter onto private property?

If I have to pay for water, than I want clean water without any chemicals added (Fluride for example)

Will there be an alternative to Irish Water?

Just like we can get Gas from the ESB or Electricity from Bord Gais etc?

How come the contract wasn't put out to tender. Surely this is anti-competitive and against EU rules.

Referendum Next Month - I'll be voting NO

It was out to tender

rasper

wellboytoo wrote: »

Bards wrote: »

and 4 years ago it was an €18Bn gap

so after 4 years of austerity, tax raising and cuts and probably taking about €10bn out of the economy, the gap only closed by €3Bn

total mismanagement of the economy and proof that you can not tax your way out of a recession.

all that these new taxes/charges is going to do is take away from peoples spending power and further dampen demand and lead to job losses and strains on the exchequer which will lead to more austerity etc.

And your solution is?

Have it out for once and for all with the unions , start talking tough with the ecb
And slash the welfare bill including child benefit, pensions and all the untouchables

We going to have to do it anyway

blowtorch

Wednesday April 18 2012

ENVIRONMENT Minister Phil Hogan was forced to admit last night that there has been a delay in setting up the registration system for the 440,000 owners of septic tanks.
(From today's Indo)

.... And the button pushers don't know when the system will be up-and-running..Yet another kick in the goolies for Phantastic Philly.

Time to move on Hogan.

sunnysoutheast

Bards wrote: »

Can the Govt make someone install a meter onto private property?

If I have to pay for water, than I want clean water without any chemicals added (Fluride for example)

Will there be an alternative to Irish Water?

Just like we can get Gas from the ESB or Electricity from Bord Gais etc?

How come the contract wasn't put out to tender. Surely this is anti-competitive and against EU rules.

Referendum Next Month - I'll be voting NO

Best practice is that the meters will be installed in boundary boxes which will be as close as possible to the individual property boundary. The boxes may well be installed before the meters as excavation will be required and it makes sense to do this work in bulk - the meter can be a screw-in job later. I'd expect that the property owner will be responsible for any repairs downstream of the meter and it will clearly be in their financial interest to fix any leakage.

It is also likely that the individual elements of the work will be tendered for separately, the sub-division of BG will be a contracting entity and of course metering is only a small element of the transition away from LAs to a new company covering supply and waste, which looks like a not-for-profit company - at least initially.

In the UK domestic competition has effectively been ruled out for the foreseeable future, as this would require a separation of the network and supplier businesses. To provide some context Irish Water is likely to have fewer billed customers than Thames Water (>3.2m).

The regulator for Irish Water could do a lot worse than study in detail how the UK regulator - OfWAt - works. In summary, water companies have to justify their spending plans every five years and this governs the charges they can levy.

SSE

Hoffmans

so we are now not only wanted to pay for a meter but also for an installation 800€ stand charge 40€ x 20 yrs.
edna kenny ( as hes known in the states) refered to water as a commodity on the news last night , so it wont be long before this bord gais water yolk subsidary is privatised and we get robbed even further......

Potential-Monke

Could we not install our own meters, and buy the ones like above for $60? (Not that i'm paying anyway!)

danjo-xx

Potential-Monke wrote: »

Could we not install our own meters, and buy the ones like above for $60? (Not that i'm paying anyway!)

nope because An Bord Gais have to own the meters to service them or something like that.:(

Merch

how in the hell can you pay for the meter and for it to not be yours?
If You pay for it, so its yours, then how can they justify charging a rental also??

Either its paid for and there is no rental
or
You dont pay and there is rental,

Either way how are they planning on connecting it into the existing shut off valve that is commonly at the end of drives? without bringing the piping up to a level where it will be subject to freezing?

Personally, Im not against paying for water,as I think it costs money to treat and deliver, I still think it would represent better value than buying it off a shop shelf. I never really stated I would be happy to pay such a service till now, as I knew they would make a total fcuk of the implementation, which is what they seem to be doing now.

I do think they should be encouraging people to tap existing sources, ie their roofs for flushing toilets, gardening and anything else.

Apart from the wastage in the system, some people are complete fckin idiots about wasting the stuff, its bad enough we flush our toilets with drinking water, but some idiots near me insist on doing their drive ups and multiple vehicles with power washes every week, not to mention tapping into the mains.

And how in the fcuk are they costing so much, as people have mentioned already, they obviously dont have a clue if you buy in bulk the price goes down per unit and for the overall installation, its a fckin joke.