Minibus for non-PSV

Mightycraic

The rules don't seem too clear for the above. Recently imported a 17 seater minibus for company use (non-PSV). Paid the €200 VRT (commercial) and had it DOE tested (which has to be done annually) yet the Motor Tax assessment is based in Private i.e. €885 for a 2.2 engine.

So, it gets assessed as commercial by the VRT office. I have the inconvenience (and significant cost - €180) for a DOE every year, versus two-yearly for a private vehicle, yet I am asked to pay the private rate of motor tax.

Is this a Government 'cake and eat it' or have I missed something?

Big Nasty

I think you missed that you have to tax a vehicle as private unless you are using it commercially.

CiniO

Mightycraic wrote: »

The rules don't seem too clear for the above. Recently imported a 17 seater minibus for company use (non-PSV). Paid the €200 VRT (commercial) and had it DOE tested (which has to be done annually) yet the Motor Tax assessment is based in Private i.e. €885 for a 2.2 engine.

So, it gets assessed as commercial by the VRT office. I have the inconvenience (and significant cost - €180) for a DOE every year, versus two-yearly for a private vehicle, yet I am asked to pay the private rate of motor tax.

Is this a Government 'cake and eat it' or have I missed something?

Quote from vrt.ie

VRT Category C
A Category C vehicle is a commercial vehicle, an agricultural tractor or a bus with a minimum of 10 seats including the driver's seat. In EU terms, Category C vehicles include N2 vehicles (over 3.5 tonnes and under 12 tonnes in weight), N3 vehicles (over 12 tonnes in weight), M2 vehicles (under 5 tonnes in weight, with a minimum of 10 seats including the driver's seat) and M3 vehicles (over 5 tonnes in weight, with a minimum of 10 seats including the driver's seat).
N1 vehicles that, at the time of manufacture, have less than four seats and have a technically permissible maximum laden mass weight that is greater than 130 per cent of the mass in service of the vehicle with bodywork in running order also fit into this category.
T1 to T5 agricultural vehicles fit into this category.
The VRT rate applicable to Category C vehicles is a flat rate of €200.

What's relevant is in bold.
Your vehicle is of EU category M2, so it fits into VRT category C so charge is €200 euro.
I couldn't be any other way.

In relation to DOE or NCT, it must be DOE. Vehicle of category M2 (minibus) must be tested by DOE. AFAIK NCT centre only does vehicles category N1 (cars).

Now in relation to motortax
Here's the relevant legislation: http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2008/en/act/pub/0024/print.html

Under which category would you like to tax your minibus?

Maybe this:

3. (a) Vehicles constructed or adapted for the carriage of more than 8 persons which are owned by a youth or community organisation and which are used exclusively by the organisation solely for the purpose of conveying persons on journeys directly related to the activities of the organisation and which have seating capacity for—

(i) more than 8 persons but not more than 20 persons,
€133

No - you can't because you said it was for company use, not for youth or community organisation.

Maybe that:

(b) Vehicles (other than those referred to in subparagraph (c)) used as large public service vehicles within the meaning of the Road Traffic Act 1961 , and having seating capacity for—

(i) more than 8 persons but not more than 20 persons,
€133

No, again you can't as your vehicle is not being used as large public service vehicle.

So maybe this:

(c) Vehicles which are large public service vehicles within the meaning of the Road Traffic Act 1961 , and which are used only for the carriage of children, or children and teachers, being carried to or from school or to or from school-related physical education activities, and are either licensed under Article 60 of the Road Traffic (Public Service Vehicles) Regulations 1963 ( S.I. No. 191 of 1963 ) as amended, or owned or operated by a statutory transport undertaking.
€82

Again the same - no chance.

So the only what remains there in the act is this:

6. Vehicles other than those charged with duty under the foregoing provisions of this Part of this Schedule:
(...)
(e) subject to subparagraphs (f) and (g), other vehicles to which this paragraph applies and which—

(i) have an engine capacity—

(I) not exceeding 1,000 cubic centimetres,
€172
(II) exceeding 1,000 cubic centimetres but not exceeding 1,100 cubic centimetres,
€259
(III) exceeding 1,100 cubic centimetres but not exceeding 1,200 cubic centimetres,
€286
(IV) exceeding 1,200 cubic centimetres but not exceeding 1,300 cubic centimetres,
€310
(V) exceeding 1,300 cubic centimetres but not exceeding 1,400 cubic centimetres,
€333
(VI) exceeding 1,400 cubic centimetres but not exceeding 1,500 cubic centimetres,
€357
(VII) exceeding 1,500 cubic centimetres but not exceeding 1,600 cubic centimetres,
€445
(VIII) exceeding 1,600 cubic centimetres but not exceeding 1,700 cubic centimetres,
€471
(IX) exceeding 1,700 cubic centimetres but not exceeding 1,800 cubic centimetres,
€551
(X) exceeding 1,800 cubic centimetres but not exceeding 1,900 cubic centimetres,
€582
(XI) exceeding 1,900 cubic centimetres but not exceeding 2,000 cubic centimetres,
€614
(XII) exceeding 2,000 cubic centimetres but not exceeding 2,100 cubic centimetres,
€784
(XIII) exceeding 2,100 cubic centimetres but not exceeding 2,200 cubic centimetres,
€823
(XIV) exceeding 2,200 cubic centimetres but not exceeding 2,300 cubic centimetres,
€860
(XV) exceeding 2,300 cubic centimetres but not exceeding 2,400 cubic centimetres,
€895
(XVI) exceeding 2,400 cubic centimetres but not exceeding 2,500 cubic centimetres,
€935
(XVII) exceeding 2,500 cubic centimetres but not exceeding 2,600 cubic centimetres,
€1,120
(XVIII) exceeding 2,600 cubic centimetres but not exceeding 2,700 cubic centimetres,
€1,164
(XIX) exceeding 2,700 cubic centimetres but not exceeding 2,800 cubic centimetres,
€1,204
(XX) exceeding 2,800 cubic centimetres but not exceeding 2,900 cubic centimetres,
€1,248
(XXI) exceeding 2,900 cubic centimetres but not exceeding 3,000 cubic centimetres,
€1,293
(XXII)exceeding 3,000 cubic cen-timetres,
€1,566

In other words, this act is constructed in a way, that if your vehicle don't fall under any of listed tax categories, then it must be taxed according to engine size. And that is exactly your case. Your bus can's be taxed under any other category, so it must be taxed in accordance with engine size. It doesn't really mean that it's taxed privately. Name "private tax" is just used by motor tax office. But the legislation just requires all vehicles which can't be taxed under any other category to be taxed within engine size - over.

You are not alone. Company for which I work for, had few minibuses and coaches, and all must be taxed in line with engine size.

Mightycraic

So, I *should* be eligible to have the minibus NCT'd every two years at a greatly reduced cost to the annual DOE test, however, I guess the number of seats removes that option. As I inferred in my original post - a nice sting.

Yes, it is being used by my company for non-paid passenger work. When the van was in the UK, it was MOT'd as a Class 4 (car) if I took out 4 seats (which are all on tracking).

Mightycraic

MCMLXXV wrote: »

I think you missed that you have to tax a vehicle as private unless you are using it commercially.

We *are* using it commercially with our business, but not for PSV.

Are you sure you couldn't tax it as a commerical? Not the PSV rate but the commercial rate?

Edit - Nope, according to Cinio

trad

Why not licence the vehicle as a large PSV and get an operators licence. Can't see much difference in the cost of insurance and if it is ever used commercially, would be fully covered.

CiniO

RoverJames wrote: »

Are you sure you couldn't tax it as a commerical? Not the PSV rate but the commercial rate?

Edit - Nope, according to Cinio

To be honest, there isn't really such thing as commercial tax, even though everyone calls it like that.
It's called goods vehicles tax, and is only for goods vehicles, which a minibus definitely isn't one.

Below a description of that tax category from legislation:

5. Vehicles (including tricycles weighing more than 500 kilograms unladen) constructed or adapted for use and used for the conveyance of goods or burden of any other description in the course of trade or business (including agriculture and the performance by a local or public authority of its functions) and vehicles constructed or adapted for use and used for the conveyance of a machine, workshop, contrivance or implement by or in which goods being conveyed by such a vehicle are processed or manufactured while the vehicle is in motion—

CiniO

trad wrote: »

Why not licence the vehicle as a large PSV and get an operators licence. Can't see much difference in the cost of insurance and if it is ever used commercially, would be fully covered.

Becasue he need to have "transport manager CPC" qualification, or company must employ someone who has it to be able to licence it as PSV and get operators licence.
When he is talking about one minibus and about extra 500quid a year dearer tax, it's probably not worth it.

CiniO

Mightycraic wrote: »

So, I *should* be eligible to have the minibus NCT'd every two years at a greatly reduced cost to the annual DOE test, however, I guess the number of seats removes that option. As I inferred in my original post - a nice sting.

Yes, it is being used by my company for non-paid passenger work. When the van was in the UK, it was MOT'd as a Class 4 (car) if I took out 4 seats (which are all on tracking).

Decision if it's NCT or DOE depends on vehicle type.
For minibuses it's DOE and you can't do anything about it.
Even if it had only 9 seats I think (i'm not sure) it would be liable for DOE as well.

Edit: I checked it now:

NCT regulations: http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2009/en/si/0567.html

3. (1) Section 18 and these Regulations apply to a vehicle, other than a small public service vehicle or a vehicle mentioned in paragraph (4)—

While:

“vehicle” means a mechanically propelled vehicle having at least 4 wheels, used for the carriage of passengers and which has a maximum of 8 seats excluding the drivers seat.

So actually NCT only applies to vehicles between 4 and 9 seats, which are constructed for carriage of passenger (so not f.e. for carriage of goods).
Anything else (including you 16 seater minibus) must be DOE'ed.

trad

CiniO wrote: »

Becasue he need to have "transport manager CPC" qualification, or company must employ someone who has it to be able to licence it as PSV and get operators licence.
When he is talking about one minibus and about extra 500quid a year dearer tax, it's probably not worth it.

I understand that, just giving another point of view. Chances are one of the drivers may have the transport managers cpc done.

Mightycraic

OK, had a lengthy conversation with a senior county Motor Tax person and there is no category that suits fully commercial use of a minibus where the passengers do not pay for carriage, hence the demand for 'private' use.

Can anyone find a legal definition of a "Community Bus"? It seems that it might better match our proposed use than 'private' use.

As the minibus is used in the UK, NI and ROI (and doesn't spend more than 6 months in any one location) maybe I should put it back on UK plates - although it has already cost me €200 VRT, nearly €300 for DOE test (and retest), €150 for seatbelt test (unbelievably, it seems that DOE/NCT testers are not qualified to check that a seatbelt is functional and safe) and would cost €190 annually for its DOE (£41.50 in UK) and €885 road tax (£165 in UK). Of course, UK insurance with open European use, is also significantly cheaper.

Of course, pub landlords who provide a free courtesy bus for their clients also have to pay 'private' motor tax. Not much of an encouragement to provide this service, greatly increasing road safety. It seems that the powers that be are happy to have the current levels of drink driving continue.

Mightycraic

Sorry, I missed part of Cinio's previous post relating to Community transport...

"Maybe this:
Quote:
3. (a) Vehicles constructed or adapted for the carriage of more than 8 persons which are owned by a youth or community organisation and which are used exclusively by the organisation solely for the purpose of conveying persons on journeys directly related to the activities of the organisation and which have seating capacity for—

(i) more than 8 persons but not more than 20 persons,
€133
No - you can't because you said it was for company use, not for youth or community organisation."

So, if we set up a community organisation and transfer ownership to the organisation, we would qualify? We certainly qualify under the above criteria as transportation is solely for the conveyance of passengers directly related to the activities (sporting) of the organisation.

loobylou

Another cost you'll have to bear is fitting of a speed limiter (100kph).

Mightycraic

loobylou wrote: »

Another cost you'll have to bear is fitting of a speed limiter (100kph).

Surely that's only relevant if the vehicle is for PSV use?

CiniO

Mightycraic wrote: »

Sorry, I missed part of Cinio's previous post relating to Community transport...

"Maybe this:
Quote:
3. (a) Vehicles constructed or adapted for the carriage of more than 8 persons which are owned by a youth or community organisation and which are used exclusively by the organisation solely for the purpose of conveying persons on journeys directly related to the activities of the organisation and which have seating capacity for—

(i) more than 8 persons but not more than 20 persons,
€133
No - you can't because you said it was for company use, not for youth or community organisation."

So, if we set up a community organisation and transfer ownership to the organisation, we would qualify? We certainly qualify under the above criteria as transportation is solely for the conveyance of passengers directly related to the activities (sporting) of the organisation.

So you want to set up a community organisation and use this organisation to provide a transport for purposes of your company?
I assume you would need a legal advice how to do that, if it's possible at all, and what would be a cost. Also I assume in that case any minibus-driver would have to be an organisation employee in oppose to your company employee.

Del2005

trad wrote: »

I understand that, just giving another point of view. Chances are one of the drivers may have the transport managers cpc done.

Drivers CPC is totally different to the CPC CiniO referred to.

CiniO

Mightycraic wrote: »

OK, had a lengthy conversation with a senior county Motor Tax person and there is no category that suits fully commercial use of a minibus where the passengers do not pay for carriage, hence the demand for 'private' use.

Can anyone find a legal definition of a "Community Bus"? It seems that it might better match our proposed use than 'private' use.

As the minibus is used in the UK, NI and ROI (and doesn't spend more than 6 months in any one location) maybe I should put it back on UK plates - although it has already cost me €200 VRT, nearly €300 for DOE test (and retest), €150 for seatbelt test (unbelievably, it seems that DOE/NCT testers are not qualified to check that a seatbelt is functional and safe) and would cost €190 annually for its DOE (£41.50 in UK) and €885 road tax (£165 in UK). Of course, UK insurance with open European use, is also significantly cheaper.

Of course, pub landlords who provide a free courtesy bus for their clients also have to pay 'private' motor tax. Not much of an encouragement to provide this service, greatly increasing road safety. It seems that the powers that be are happy to have the current levels of drink driving continue.

The question is, where is your company registered? If it's in Ireland, I don't think you can register your minibus in UK. To do that you would need to register your company in UK, and pay your taxes there.
But I might be wrong about it.

CiniO

Mightycraic wrote: »

Surely that's only relevant if the vehicle is for PSV use?

No it isn't.
Speed limiters apply to nearly any minibus, so yours must have it.
The same thing with tachograph.
Additionally tachograph must be calibrated every 6 years and checked every 2 years, so that's even more additional costs.


Speed limiters legislation: http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2005/en/si/0831.html

This legislation is bit complicated to read, but in general if your minibus was first registered after 1st October 2001, then it must be equipped with a speed limiter, no matter if you use it as PSV, for company use or just to carry your big family privately.

However if it passed DOE without it, I wouldn't bother as who is going to check it.
Those guys have no clue about these regulations.
I recall here on boards someone was writing with an issue that his 8 seater minibus was refused to be DOE'ed without speed limiter so he had to pay for fitting it. It was RSA who adviced all DOE centres to require speed limiters from 8 seater minibuses.
But in reality, it's not required, as in legislation I gave you link above it states

“passenger vehicle” means a vehicle having seating accommodation for more than 8 persons exclusive of the driver;"

After some time (I think it could be a year) RSA abandoned this idea of limiting 8 seater minibuses, as obviously there wasn't any legislation requireing this.
But those guys who had to pay for installing them, had to suffer for a stupid RSA mistake.

Mightycraic

This whole issue of company minibus use where passengers are not charged is now a topic for AOB at the Motor Tax meeting in Portlaiose in May...not that I'm expecting much to change.

Mightycraic

CiniO wrote: »

The question is, where is your company registered? If it's in Ireland, I don't think you can register your minibus in UK. To do that you would need to register your company in UK, and pay your taxes there.
But I might be wrong about it.

Our situation is slightly unique in that we are a UK operation with an Irish Limited Company. Prior to registering the vehicle in Ireland we have not been stopped once with the UK plates (past 6 years) and, even if we had, the vehicle has not been in the State for 183 days a year. It won't cost me a red cent to transfer it back onto the UK plates, so it looks like that's the probable outcome, as I'm simply not prepared to pay €900 for road tax on a vehicle that is used solely for business. I did exactly the same many years ago when I imported a long-bed crewcab (again, for exclusive company use) and was demanded to pay private motor tax (4.6 litre!). Once the rules were changed (which have changed again since) I re-imported it.

I don't understand why they can't introduce a self-declaration scheme, like they do today for crewcabs etc, with penalties if found to be using the vehicle for irrelevant activities (i.e. like the hundreds of 'commercial' crewcabs with childseats fitted!)

Roz09

I have just been confronted with a major problem and Revenue are not being very helpful! I recently purchased (3 weeks ago) a minibus with 9 seats in total, however I've since discovered it is registered on the log book as having 13 seats. I went to revenue today and asked if I could re-register the vehicle as 9 seater as I dont have a D1 since I exchanged my UK license.....They tell me that's no problem but I will have to pay the VRT as it will be then classified as a Private vehicle not a commercial ( in the region of €4000!!!). It is classified as private on the log book but am told by revenue that when it was registered as a new vehicle in 2008 it was commercial which only attracted €50 duty and I will be liable for the difference.
Does anyone know if I can register the vehicle as having 9 seats and keep it classified as a commercial?

trad

"as I dont have a D1 since I exchanged my UK license."

Your UK license is valid here and you didn't have to exchange it. Apply for a re issue of your UK license with the D1.

R.O.R

trad wrote: »

"as I dont have a D1 since I exchanged my UK license."

Your UK license is valid here and you didn't have to exchange it. Apply for a re issue of your UK license with the D1.

I'm not sure the D1 and C1 are actually valid in Ireland, on a UK Licence, presuming they were given after passing a test for a B licence. I passed my test in a Corsa and when I turned 18 I was fully licenced to driver a 7.5Ton Truck or a 15 Seater Minibus, which always seemed a bit strage.

Roz09 - it seems like you are f**ked unfortunately You can't even drive the vehicle as you aren't licenced for it, Re-classifying as a 9 seat would involve paying VRT. Is it listed on the VRT caclulator (www.ros.ie)? Presume it's probably fairly high emissions which would give the high VRT quote.

Probably the cheapest thing to do would be apply for a provisional D1 licence and take the test - if there is one?

trad

Here's what the DVLA say about a minibus license for hire or reward

https://www.gov.uk/become-lorry-bus-driver/applying-for-a-bus-or-lorry-provisional-entitlement

druidstone

CiniO wrote: »

To be honest, there isn't really such thing as commercial tax, even though everyone calls it like that.
It's called goods vehicles tax, and is only for goods vehicles, which a minibus definitely isn't one.

Below a description of that tax category from legislation:

---

5. Vehicles (including tricycles weighing more than 500 kilograms unladen) constructed or adapted for use and used for the conveyance of goods or burden of any other description in the course of trade or business (including agriculture and the performance by a local or public authority of its functions) and vehicles constructed or adapted for use and used for the conveyance of a machine, workshop, contrivance or implement by or in which goods being conveyed by such a vehicle are processed or manufactured while the vehicle is in motion

---

Surely a "burden of any other description in the course of trade or business" could also include passengers. A burden simply means extra weight, extra load in the vehicle. "goods or burden of ANY other description" So passengers in fact are "any other description" and it does not explicitly say "excluding passengers" does it?
The passengers have a weight and will be a heavy load, ie. a burden.

There lies the answer. I bet a lawyer could fight it, "in the course of trade or business" means a business vehicle used for business purposes. There you go!

I am in the same situation, I need to buy a minibus for my self-employed business, and coming from Australia I am finding all these ambiguous and irrational regulations a nightmare.
In Australia, commercial vehicles are slightly more expensive to register (tax) than private vehicles, and you are allowed to use a commercial vehicle for private use as well, to a maximum of 15% of its total use. (trip log book must be kept for 3 months every 3 years as proof)