US firms to challenge Bus Eireann's €150m annual school contract

n97 mini

Reports an article in today's Indo.

This is going to court in June, but who is defending it, and why? Is there any legitimate reason to defend BE automatically getting a contract if this sort every year? I can't think of one.

foggy_lad

n97 mini wrote: »

Reports an article in today's Indo.

This is going to court in June, but who is defending it, and why? Is there any legitimate reason to defend BE automatically getting a contract if this sort every year? I can't think of one.

There is no legitimate reason to break EU law and not put this contract out to tender, It seems clear enough that Bus Eireann are not the best operator in the country for schools services considering the amount paid for transport, especially Special needs transport(mostly done by single taxi journeys) which is done by special mini-bus in other countries which greatly reduces costs.

AngryLips

Is this one contract or multiple contracts at the moment? Am entirely in favour of opening the process up to competition but could this US company also be looking to fragment the contract into separate parts and then cherry pick the profitable bits? Therefore pushing up the cost of what's leftover...

Run_to_da_hills

I hope they win for the safety sake of our children.

The Irish School bus system is a shambles along with safety rules that go with it. Most of the school buses in this country are patched ex fleet and many still in in ex fleet colours. At one time we did have "proper" school buses.

America takes school buses very serious and have specific legislation to accommodate them.

If you see a school bus pull over with stop signs displayed and lights flashing you must stop in both directions. All school buses are painted yellow and have automated signage and flashing amber / red lights to warn traffic.

foggy_lad

AngryLips wrote: »

Is this one contract or multiple contracts at the moment? Am entirely in favour of opening the process up to competition but could this US company also be looking to fragment the contract into separate parts and then cherry pick the profitable bits? Therefore pushing up the cost of what's leftover...

Afaik it is just one single contract which Bus Eireann break up internally to areas which they can serve with their Sh1tbox knackered old bangers, contractors who are running so close to their bottom line their arses are dragging on the ground and their buses are usually not much better than the ones used by Bus Eireann(usually they are old bangers bought from Bus Eireann) and then there is special needs transport which in areas like Carlow consists of seperate taxis for everyone even those in town!(costs a small fortune!)

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

I hope they win for the safety sake of our children.

The Irish School bus system is a shambles along with safety rules that go with it. Most of the school buses in this country are patched ex fleet and many still in in ex fleet colours. At one time we did have "proper" school buses.

America takes school buses very serious and have specific legislation to accommodate them.

If you see a school bus pull over with stop signs displayed and lights flashing you must stop in both directions. All school buses are painted yellow and have automated signage and flashing amber / red lights to warn traffic.

There are still knackered old buses on the road with doors and windows that can open or fall out at any time, these are deemed safe to use by both the operators and Bus Eireann who have ultimate responsibility.

The american model looks good with all their flashing lights but going to school would be prohibitively ardous here at the same speeds as the american buses.

the_syco

From the article:

STS has promised to build a bus manufacturing facility if it wins the legal challenge and is awarded the school bus contract. It is understood it would require a 10-year contract to justify the costs of investing.

A 10 year contract...? And will that be open to negotiation every two years to ensure they're not getting paid too much? Yes yes, I know BE are getting paid too much now, but if we put in this clause now, if BE were to ever get the contract again, it'd mean value for money I'd hope!

foggy_lad

the_syco wrote: »

From the article:

A 10 year contract...? And will that be open to negotiation every two years to ensure they're not getting paid too much? Yes yes, I know BE are getting paid too much now, but if we put in this clause now, if BE were to ever get the contract again, it'd mean value for money I'd hope!

Some people believe that there is a certain amount of creative accounting being done with the school transport scheme and that some of the funds are used to bolster other areas of public transport.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/1101/1224306844550.html

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0812/1224302301834.html

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/bus-eireann-rubbishes-claims-that-funds-are-misused-2846469.html

dowlingm

Once again the lamestream media catches onto something Phoenix said years ago (that BE's involvement was basically one of having money rest in their accounts and dribbling it out to the private operators)

foggy_lad

dowlingm wrote: »

Once again the lamestream media catches onto something Phoenix said years ago (that BE's involvement was basically one of having money rest in their accounts and dribbling it out to the private operators)

The whole issue of school bus and also "on-hire to Bus Eireann" contracts needs to be looked into as in some areas there are local arrangements where one particular company will be used despite others being more favourable or cheaper or having better buses. By all appearances it is done more by word of mouth to the preferred companies rather than any official tendering process.

BuffyBot

I do wonder - if there was really a market for this, I'm pretty sure First would already be knocking down the court's doors. After all, they own First Student, the largest provider of school transit in the US, and they've begun to roll it out in the UK..

Going Forward

The figures do not make sense

"More than €100m of the contract value goes to private service providers which have doubled from 1,700 to 3,400 since 1997, it said" -This E100M accounts for "Some 85 per cent, or 3,400 of the vehicles involved in the school scheme, are run by private operators. The State company said it had reduced the cost by €18 million since 2009 with a commitment for a further €1.5 million in administrative savings for 2011."

So 85% of the service is being carried out by private contractors at a cost of 100m.

And the remaining 15% is run by Bus Eirean costing 70-80M?? BE is milking this.

Going Forward

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

I hope they win for the safety sake of our children.

The Irish School bus system is a shambles along with safety rules that go with it. Most of the school buses in this country are patched ex fleet and many still in in ex fleet colours. At one time we did have "proper" school buses.

America takes school buses very serious and have specific legislation to accommodate them.

If you see a school bus pull over with stop signs displayed and lights flashing you must stop in both directions. All school buses are painted yellow and have automated signage and flashing amber / red lights to warn traffic.

The legislation could easily be adopted here.
Most of the clapped out school buses i see are bus eireanns own buses.
Most of the private contractors also use their vehicles for private hire too so there is an incentive to having them safe and presentable.
The US school buses AFAIK are based on a 50 year old chassis design, and seatbelts only became popular in recent years.

WhatNowForUs?

For those interested this is back in the High Court tomorrow.

end of the road

but theirs no guarintee that these US ferms would get the contract anyway? i suppose their happy to take the risk of going to the high court anyway even though they may not get the contract.

Privatise

end of the road wrote: »

but theirs no guarintee that these US ferms would get the contract anyway? i suppose their happy to take the risk of going to the high court anyway even though they may not get the contract.

Unfortunately that's what needs to be done to open up the market.

end of the road

Privatise wrote: »

Unfortunately that's what needs to be done to open up the market.

absolutely agree, however i can't imagine these firms being happy to have spent money for return should they not get the contract? if their happy to go to court just to have their chance to tender for the contract then fair play to them.

foggy_lad

end of the road wrote: »

absolutely agree, however i can't imagine these firms being happy to have spent money for return should they not get the contract? if their happy to go to court just to have their chance to tender for the contract then fair play to them.

If they are offering a better service than Bus Eireann then why would they not get the contract?

dowlingm

foggy_lad wrote: »

If they are offering a better service than Bus Eireann then why would they not get the contract?

Because then BE don't get an implicit subsidy, Father Ted style but which doesn't hit any EU State Aid tripwires?

foggy_lad

dowlingm wrote: »

Because then BE don't get an implicit subsidy, Father Ted style but which doesn't hit any EU State Aid tripwires?

But bus Eireann swear that school bus service business and accounts are totally separate to the rest of their business.

end of the road

foggy_lad wrote: »

If they are offering a better service than Bus Eireann then why would they not get the contract?

maybe they won't offer a better service then BE or another firm? such a thing is possible. (okay i'm sure anyone could do a little better then BE)

AlekSmart

end of the road wrote: »

maybe they won't offer a better service then BE or another firm? such a thing is possible. (okay i'm sure anyone could do a little better then BE)

Crikey it'll be the "End" of a VERY long road before you'll get Foggy_Lad to agree to that premise......:)

However,it's a valid point as some observers,seeing the American connection in this case (tenuous as it is) have visions of the TV version of Mom & Pop,Apple Pie,Rockin Chair on the Stoop and the International Yellow School Bus trundling along the street to drop of happy freckle faced chizzlers ......

As far as I'm aware,whilst the United States Constitution enshrines the right to Keep and Bear Arms it's not quite as robust as our own when it comes to Keeping and Bearing Children.......;)

BUt with Liberty Mutual now turning our National Airwaves into something akin to drive-time L.A,I suppose anything's possible ....:eek:

foggy_lad

AlekSmart wrote: »

Crikey it'll be the "End" of a VERY long road before you'll get Foggy_Lad to agree to that premise......:)

However,it's a valid point as some observers,seeing the American connection in this case (tenuous as it is) have visions of the TV version of Mom & Pop,Apple Pie,Rockin Chair on the Stoop and the International Yellow School Bus trundling along the street to drop of happy freckle faced chizzlers ......

As far as I'm aware,whilst the United States Constitution enshrines the right to Keep and Bear Arms it's not quite as robust as our own when it comes to Keeping and Bearing Children.......;)

BUt with Liberty Mutual now turning our National Airwaves into something akin to drive-time L.A,I suppose anything's possible ....:eek:

Cor Blimey Alek, I already agree that they MAY not offer anything better but until they are allowed to tender we will not know!

miller50841

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

I hope they win for the safety sake of our children.

The Irish School bus system is a shambles along with safety rules that go with it. Most of the school buses in this country are patched ex fleet and many still in in ex fleet colours. At one time we did have "proper" school buses.

America takes school buses very serious and have specific legislation to accommodate them.

If you see a school bus pull over with stop signs displayed and lights flashing you must stop in both directions. All school buses are painted yellow and have automated signage and flashing amber / red lights to warn traffic.

This is Ireland nobody here knows what a stop sign is they see one they speed up and go through, they see a bus they do anything to pass.

Rules need to be obeyed and doesn't matter what colour or lights you would have on the bus it wouldn't be noticed by most.

miller50841

Why would it be a good thing to let in an American company to do shool buses it be nice to see some Irish firms still being Irish

Privatise

end of the road wrote: »

Privatise wrote: »

Unfortunately that's what needs to be done to open up the market.

absolutely agree, however i can't imagine these firms being happy to have spent money for return should they not get the contract? if their happy to go to court just to have their chance to tender for the contract then fair play to them.

The american firms are very committed to the project and have put in alot of time and effort into it, its not just the money.

Privatise

end of the road wrote: »

foggy_lad wrote: »

If they are offering a better service than Bus Eireann then why would they not get the contract?

maybe they won't offer a better service then BE or another firm? such a thing is possible. (okay i'm sure anyone could do a little better then BE)

But a tendering process should be put in place to see who can do the best job. BE, STS or anybody else.

Privatise

AlekSmart wrote: »

end of the road wrote: »

maybe they won't offer a better service then BE or another firm? such a thing is possible. (okay i'm sure anyone could do a little better then BE)

Crikey it'll be the "End" of a VERY long road before you'll get Foggy_Lad to agree to that premise......:)

However,it's a valid point as some observers,seeing the American connection in this case (tenuous as it is) have visions of the TV version of Mom & Pop,Apple Pie,Rockin Chair on the Stoop and the International Yellow School Bus trundling along the street to drop of happy freckle faced chizzlers ......

As far as I'm aware,whilst the United States Constitution enshrines the right to Keep and Bear Arms it's not quite as robust as our own when it comes to Keeping and Bearing Children.......;)

BUt with Liberty Mutual now turning our National Airwaves into something akin to drive-time L.A,I suppose anything's possible ....:eek:

I dont really understand this post.

Privatise

miller50841 wrote: »

Why would it be a good thing to let in an American company to do shool buses it be nice to see some Irish firms still being Irish

It would be a good thing if it brought down prices, saved tax payers money and gave bus operators a bigger slice of the cherry.

Privatise

miller50841 wrote: »

Why would it be a good thing to let in an American company to do shool buses it be nice to see some Irish firms still being Irish

It would be nice to see if they were run efficiently.

dowlingm

If an American company comes in, surely that is foreign direct investment into the country? Unfortunately having no native bus maker most of the capital investment will accrue abroad but that's true of BE too.

OurLadyofKnock

AlekSmart wrote: »

Crikey it'll be the "End" of a VERY long road before you'll get Foggy_Lad to agree to that premise......:)

However,it's a valid point as some observers,seeing the American connection in this case (tenuous as it is) have visions of the TV version of Mom & Pop,Apple Pie,Rockin Chair on the Stoop and the International Yellow School Bus trundling along the street to drop of happy freckle faced chizzlers ......

As far as I'm aware,whilst the United States Constitution enshrines the right to Keep and Bear Arms it's not quite as robust as our own when it comes to Keeping and Bearing Children.......;)

BUt with Liberty Mutual now turning our National Airwaves into something akin to drive-time L.A,I suppose anything's possible ....:eek:

Congradulations for using all these words and saying absolutely nothing of note.

Going Forward

Privatise wrote: »

The american firms are very committed to the project and have put in alot of time and effort into it, its not just the money.

As have many of the private guys who do work for BE at daft rates.

I for One don't see the attraction of any American or for that matter Australian johnny come latelys.

Privatise

Going Forward wrote: »

Privatise wrote: »

The american firms are very committed to the project and have put in alot of time and effort into it, its not just the money.

As have many of the private guys who do work for BE at daft rates.

I for One don't see the attraction of any American or for that matter Australian johnny come latelys.

With the student transport scheme coming to 166 million euro give or take, it looks very bloated to trailways, they see huge inefficiencies. They are after the management part and will use the private operators giving them a share.

AlekSmart

OurLadyofKnock wrote: »

Congradulations for using all these words and saying absolutely nothing of note.

Nothing....?

Going Forward

Privatise wrote: »

With the student transport scheme coming to 166 million euro give or take, it looks very bloated to trailways, they see huge inefficiencies. They are after the management part and will use the private operators giving them a share.

"Use" being the operative word in the above..

It is going to be another race to the bottom where the lowest tender wins, carrying with it a huge risk to safety.

bk

Going Forward wrote: »

It is going to be another race to the bottom where the lowest tender wins, carrying with it a huge risk to safety.

Err, how is that any different then BE taking in lots of money and then tendering out to private operators who make the lowest bid to actually run the buses and then use the money saved to cross subsidise other parts of the company?

If this company win the contract, then the same private companies will likely to be continue to be used, but a lot of the extra management expense and cross subsidy will be cut out, thus less cost to the taxpayer.

n97 mini

Going Forward wrote: »

It is going to be another race to the bottom where the lowest tender wins, carrying with it a huge risk to safety.

DoE and other standards set down by the NTA etc set the baseline for safety, not the operators.

Going Forward

n97 mini wrote: »

DoE and other standards set down by the NTA etc set the baseline for safety, not the operators.

True, but we all know of certain operators who constantly fly close to the wind*, even though do they meet all the basic requirements.

*Poor maintenance standards, drivers with unchecked history, dirty buses, no extra training eg first aid etc etc.

Going Forward

bk wrote: »

Err, how is that any different then BE taking in lots of money and then tendering out to private operators who make the lowest bid to actually run the buses and then use the money saved to cross subsidise other parts of the company?

If this company win the contract, then the same private companies will likely to be continue to be used, but a lot of the extra management expense and cross subsidy will be cut out, thus less cost to the taxpayer.

I have previously pointed out the BE black hole which money goes into in the scheme.

In general the private operators pursuing this contract under an umbrella organisation are most likely ones who for one reason or another are not currently contracted to bus eireann, so if this consortium does win the contract the existing operators of long standing will most likely be turfed out in favour of those who have bought shares in this one, so its probably not accurate to say that the same operators will continue to do the work, but fair enough, thats business!

The current BE safety and maintenance requirements for intending operators are extremely high, which would actually automatically exclude a lot of the chancers out there.

I'd say if they won the scheme in the morning they'd actually sh*t a brick as there appears to be very little hard facts on thier website as to how they would run the scheme!

AlekSmart

Going Forward wrote: »

The current BE safety and maintenance requirements for intending operators are extremely high, which would actually automatically exclude a lot of the chancers out there.

I'd say if they won the scheme in the morning they'd actually sh*t a brick as there appears to be very little hard facts on thier website as to how they would run the scheme!

Some good points there GF.

It's noteworthy that the main proponent of this challenge is AFAIU an accountant,with no background in Public or School Specific Transport.

It's also of note that the challengers backers come from regions with a somewhat different demographic than our own.

Is there a risk in this challenge I wonder whereby a rejection of this challenge thereby copperfastens Bus Eireann's position going forward ?

Whilst I believe the School Transport Scheme has been an effective one,I also believe that it is essentially 20 years out-of-date having failed to move with the changing times regarding individual mobility and seriously deficient Land-Use and Planning policies.

The School Transport System requires modernization,but I'm far from certain that Corporate Profit should be the driving (:o) force behind it ?

foggy_lad

Going Forward wrote: »

The current BE safety and maintenance requirements for intending operators are extremely high, which would actually automatically exclude a lot of the chancers out there.

I'd say if they won the scheme in the morning they'd actually sh*t a brick as there appears to be very little hard facts on thier website as to how they would run the scheme!

This must be just for school buses as there are some rare auld specimens of coach on the road on hire to Bus Eireann! i have seen buses with smashed outer and inner window glass so instead of the normal double glazing there is just one pane of glass, buses with burnt out air conditioning units, buses with innappropriate lighting, too bright for what is supposed to be expressway services, poor ventilation, poor seating support, dirty/grubby seating, buses so old they have ashtrays built into the seats, saw a 14 year old bus yesterday which had hobbled up from limerick, It sounded desperate, god help the poor passengers on that knackered auld yoke!

Going Forward

foggy_lad wrote: »

This must be just for school buses as there are some rare auld specimens of coach on the road on hire to Bus Eireann! i have seen buses with smashed outer and inner window glass so instead of the normal double glazing there is just one pane of glass, buses with burnt out air conditioning units, buses with innappropriate lighting, too bright for what is supposed to be expressway services, poor ventilation, poor seating support, dirty/grubby seating, buses so old they have ashtrays built into the seats, saw a 14 year old bus yesterday which had hobbled up from limerick, It sounded desperate, god help the poor passengers on that knackered auld yoke!

A lot of airplanes still have ashtrays built in to the seat too, and both have service lives of around 25 years IF maintained properly.

Coaches are so expensive to purchase that they cannot be simply retired after 10 years.

I dont know if its just for the school contract or not, the school tender document is available on the etenders website for anyone to read. (and twenty year old vehicles are acceptable!!)

If there is such crappy rubbish on the roads then surely the local Gardai on the ground are failing in their duties regarding PSV licensing and inspections.

Privatise

Going Forward wrote: »

Privatise wrote: »

With the student transport scheme coming to 166 million euro give or take, it looks very bloated to trailways, they see huge inefficiencies. They are after the management part and will use the private operators giving them a share.

"Use" being the operative word in the above..

It is going to be another race to the bottom where the lowest tender wins, carrying with it a huge risk to safety.

Use as in use the operators to drive buses. I don't think they can be USED any more then they have been. The operators will have a share in the consortium, that doesn't sound like a race to the bottom.

Privatise

Going Forward wrote: »

Privatise wrote: »

With the student transport scheme coming to 166 million euro give or take, it looks very bloated to trailways, they see huge inefficiencies. They are after the management part and will use the private operators giving them a share.

"Use" being the operative word in the above..

It is going to be another race to the bottom where the lowest tender wins, carrying with it a huge risk to safety.

Lowest tender, highest efficiencies and highest safety standards - that still doesn't sound like a race to the bottom.

Privatise

Going Forward wrote: »

n97 mini wrote: »

DoE and other standards set down by the NTA etc set the baseline for safety, not the operators.

True, but we all know of certain operators who constantly fly close to the wind*, even though do they meet all the basic requirements.

*Poor maintenance standards, drivers with unchecked history, dirty buses, no extra training eg first aid etc etc.

Proper Quality Assurance should take care of this.

Privatise

Going Forward wrote: »

bk wrote: »

Err, how is that any different then BE taking in lots of money and then tendering out to private operators who make the lowest bid to actually run the buses and then use the money saved to cross subsidise other parts of the company?

If this company win the contract, then the same private companies will likely to be continue to be used, but a lot of the extra management expense and cross subsidy will be cut out, thus less cost to the taxpayer.

I have previously pointed out the BE black hole which money goes into in the scheme.

In general the private operators pursuing this contract under an umbrella organisation are most likely ones who for one reason or another are not currently contracted to bus eireann, so if this consortium does win the contract the existing operators of long standing will most likely be turfed out in favour of those who have bought shares in this one, so its probably not accurate to say that the same operators will continue to do the work, but fair enough, thats business!

The current BE safety and maintenance requirements for intending operators are extremely high, which would actually automatically exclude a lot of the chancers out there.

I'd say if they won the scheme in the morning they'd actually sh*t a brick as there appears to be very little hard facts on thier website as to how they would run the scheme!

Quite a number of operators under BE at the moment have signed up to the consortium.

The scheme would not be given to the consortium in the morning, it would have to be won through tender which is what the consortium is asking for. A chance to tender.

Going Forward

Privatise wrote: »

Quite a number of operators under BE at the moment have signed up to the consortium.

The scheme would not be given to the consortium in the morning, it would have to be won through tender which is what the consortium is asking for. A chance to tender.

Good and fair points.

dowlingm

I think the concept of a national tender should be scrapped, with the tenders devolved to local authority-VEC level.

Privatise

Hi,
For those who want to stay in touch with the issue

www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2012/0906/1224323652868.html

gives an indication of whats going on in the school transport scheme at the moment







The above is self explanatory and can be found on DoneDeal under the coaches section.

Going Forward

Privatise wrote: »

Hi,
For those who want to stay in touch with the issue

www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2012/0906/1224323652868.html

gives an indication of whats going on in the school transport scheme at the moment







The above is self explanatory and can be found on DoneDeal under the coaches section.

You might elaborate on what you think is "going on"?

Brown envelopes changing hands?

Cause a national rather than a local enquiry if warranted.

Going Forward

I see it was rejected

www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2012/1024/1224325624540.html
www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2012/1024/1224325624540.html