Civil ceremony vs Church ceremony - guilt trips and all [LONG]

Stadler

I'm getting married next year and both myself and my partner (for various reasons) have decided that a Catholic Church marriage really isn't for us and we have found a perfect venue in an idyllic setting that does a marriage outdoors in a really scenic spot. We were very excited when booking and when herself rang her family they were all excira and delira. I ring my siblings and they're all excited. Telling my parents was a different affair...

To give a little background, my mother would be quite devout, but tolerates the fact that at least 2 of her kids have no interest in going to mass, and has stopped hassling us for about 10 years now! Dad rarely if ever goes to mass unless there's a funeral or a wedding or whatever. Both are from the 1940s, so have the auld guilt built into them.

We have given a lot of thought to how we want the ceremony to go and I feel it would be hypocritical (not to mention extremely boring/annoying/tedious) to go through the mass thing and I really don't want it, and neither does the missus. I've been to around 50 weddings in the last 10 years, all the same, all with the emphasis on the Mass, not the exchange of vows/commitment, almost an afterthought really.

So when I rang home, mum was fine, just not ecstatic when, in response to "Have ye found a nice church?" the reply was "we're actually thinking of going with a civil ceremony". The conversation went on for another couple of mins until dad came on the phone and in a 30 second outburst came out with stuff like "Would you not think of your poor mother?" and "Civil ceremonies are for people who are thinking about getting divorced," before he then declared "If you're going civil, I'm not coming to the wedding." *CLICK* [line goes dead].

I'm absolutely livid. Why should we be forced to follow someone else's beliefs? I wouldn't have minded a two-way discussion about it, as I would be mindful of my mum's faith (although I think that following such a discussion she would be quite pragmatic, and she will always do the right thing, even if it's not her thing), but for Captain Catholic himself with his track record of clergy bashing and almost non-existent attendance at mass, I'm very annoyed. Very annoyed.

Am I missing the point? Or are they?:(

lazygal

I found when planning the wedding you need to TELL people what you're doing, don't leave any room for opinions if you don't want them. My parents are very much of the a la carte Catholic variety, i.e. mass at Christmas because its a lovely service but wouldn't see a church except for weddings/funerals the rest of the year. We didn't entertain any opinions on our humanist wedding. My mum made a few noises about people maybe 'not thinking the ceremony will be important enough to attend' because it wasn't in a church but I carried on regardless.
In your case, I would simply tell your parents that the decision has been made and if they can't come, well that's too bad. Don't bring it up any more and if they do, simply say 'We have made our decision and are happy with it, so we don't need to discuss it'. I can guarantee they will come. I found out after our wedding a close-ish family member told his friends we had a church wedding, when I asked him why he felt the need to lie about our wedding he just said he knew people aren't used to non church weddings and he felt he had to 'cover' for us (ridiculous I know). So maybe your mum is the same, a bit of a 'what will the neighbours think attitude.
In summary, call her bluff. I know you are hurt and this is upsetting but I presume you've a bit of time to go yet. Your mother had her wedding and ceremony of her choosing. Your wedding is not her business in terms of how you solemnize the relationship. Don't get into endless rows about it, when she brings it up again change the subject and if she persists, simply say you don't want to upset her or yourself or your partner so its better to leave the subject alone because the decision has been made.
We are so happy we had a non church wedding because its set the marker for our marriage. I'm now expecting and while we've had some of the 'when is the christening' nonsense, its been a lot easier to deflect because we didn't give into the comments about having a church wedding. I didn't want to start out married life in a church that doesn't represent how I live my life and neither did my husband.

Tristram

Fair play lazygal! If the day ever comes I hope to follow a similar route.

Stadler

Mum will be fine - like I said, she's the pragmatist in the family. She's the sort who listens to the logic, and even if it doesn't represent her beliefs, she will generally see the sense in what's being said.

It's Dad who threw the toys out of the cot. A week or two of radio silence is in store - phone off, siblings have my work number and I'll probably call Mum on her mobile to have a chat.

I was warned people would interfere from the get go, but jeez :-)

Toto Wolfcastle

It's great that your mother reacted like that to it. She might not necessarily be happy about it and she might bring it up again but at least she accepted it when you told her. I would ignore your dad. When it comes down to it he will attend the wedding. It's your wedding and the ceremony is the most important bit so you have to be happy about your choice. If its mentioned again just tell your dad that you have the decision made and change the topic of conversation.

Sleepy

Second all the advice about just ignoring your Dad's tantrums. I guarantee you he'll do what he's told (by your Mam who seems to have taken the news grand) when the day comes around.

workstoomuch

I know how your feeling, my fiance and I are getting married on the 29th December and are having a civil ceremony.

Believe it or not, my 86 year old grandfather took it better than some of my younger family members, who asked why we werent having a 'real' wedding!!!!!!!!

We adopted the line of, if you feel that you cannot be there to support us and our decision on the day, we very much understand' - there were alot of sharp turnarounds at that point

Its not really talked about now, and to be frank I couldnt give a toss about what some of them think, weve made our decision and are sticking to it - ive always been stubborn, but im not sacrificing my beliefs just because people think a 'real' wedding should be in a church with a ceremony conducted by a man who has no experience of what a relationship, let alone being married is like!

Good luck to you both, im sure your Dad will realise he is in the wrong on this one...

AshAdele

We got engaged 2 months ago. we had discussed having a civil ceremony before hand and were both happy with the choice we had made.

When we told our families we were engaged the first question was what church were we thinking of. We both said that we were having a civil ceremony.

My family were great about it. Most of the family are only in a church for weddings and funerals so understood.

My fiance's sister and father were fine with it. His mother goes to church every week and would be very religous (even sprinkled holy water around our new house when we got the keys, lol, if stale water makes her happy- fine by me)

She went very quiet at first and then smiled and seemed fine about it.

a few days later (when i wasnt there) made a comment:

The dog is very unset that your not having a church wedding.

:eek::eek:

my fiance told her the dog could stuff it. (not quiet those words)

She hasn't said anything negative since, and has come around to the idea. has been talking to all the ladies in work about it and has been asking lots of questions (are we having the ceremony in the hotel or somewhere else, what happens in the ceremony etc)

I think his sister may have had a few words to her about it but I cant be sure.

Nead21

I second the advice on ignoring your dad's tantrum. It's an initial reaction and he might take longer to process and ultimately accept the idea. He will of course come around and i'm sure your mam will have words in his ear in the meantime.

My fiancé and myself are also going for a civil ceremony. Like yourselves we are not religious, and would really feel like hypocrites standing in church. Our parents didn't have a huge problem with the civil ceremony idea (albeit a couple of remarks being passed), but they did have a huge problem with the guestlist and the fact that we wanted a smallish wedding and not invite half the town! Like your situation there were a couple of tantrums, but ultimately we stood our ground and they had to accept what we wanted in the end. To be honest, I viewed the whole thing as setting a precedent for the future and to let it be seen that we don't back down from something we believe in because someone is throwing a tantrum!

I know it is difficult, but it's what you a couple have chosen. If you back down due to pressure you'll regret not having the wedding that you both want.

Best of luck

Gatica

Nead21 wrote: »

I second the advice on ignoring your dad's tantrum. It's an initial reaction and he might take longer to process and ultimately accept the idea. He will of course come around and i'm sure your mam will have words in his ear in the meantime.

I agree...
I also think that if you let your mum (your dad probably won't listen) know that you very much care about her and understand why she'd feel hurt that you're not having a church wedding, she'd at least feel "considered" (she's devout and worried for your salvation yaddy yadda...).
All they probably need is a bit of empathy as to their beliefs and feeling on the topic. I realise they haven't exactly shown that to you, but you may at least rise above it and it'll even show them that the ones being inconsiderate is them. Let them know why you don't want a church wedding - you don't go to mass and you'd feel hypocritical starting out married life from a ceremony conducted in a church that you never go to.
Let them know that you're every bit as committed to each other whether you had the wedding at a church or in a civil ceremony. That you want a ceremony that's all about your commitment to each other and not about the religious beliefs of those around you. Hopefully that'll allay some of their fears and help them understand that it's every bit as "serious".

However, do make it known that there's no budging on it, no room for negotiation. Your decision is made and it's final.

stinkle

Hi OP,

we're in a similar-ish situation too, I've always been set on a civil wedding since before even meeting my OH! and even before we got engaged we were both in agreement about never wanting a religious wedding cos we aren't religious at all ourselves, and no way are we going to endorse the Catholic church, financially or otherwise!!!!

My folks are grand about it, but fiancé's not so much. It's awkward for me at the mo, cos I'm leaving it up to him to talk to his family (don't want to interfere myself, also if I'm honest the reaction did upset me at the time). It kinda took away from the excitement of planning stuff, and I'm expecting a lot of hassle whatever we decide. It actually would be so much easier to do it in the local church!

All the advice people have given here is sound (and I will be using a lot of it myself!). Definitely don't back down on anything, and give a united front on this - I was scared about attempts to talk us round so was adamant that our decision is not up for discussion and its OUR decision. Re:what your dad said about civil weddings being for people who want to get divorced, it echoes my granny's reaction and the reaction of other elderly relatives when my cousin got married in a registry office a few years ago and is hopefully a relic of the past!

Incidentally, two days ago my mother said she wouldn't be happy if we didnt get our future kids baptised. Wasnt an argument, she just said she'd throw a bit of holy water on them anyway, as her friend did the same with her grandkids :pac::pac::pac: I was mildly annoyed for about five seconds until I remembered that Simpsons episode where Ned Flanders had an emergency baptism kit . Ah Irish mammies!

Sleepy

stinkle wrote: »

Incidentally, two days ago my mother said she wouldn't be happy if we didnt get our future kids baptised. Wasnt an argument, she just said she'd throw a bit of holy water on them anyway, as her friend did the same with her grandkids :pac::pac::pac: I was mildly annoyed for about five seconds until I remembered that Simpsons episode where Ned Flanders had an emergency baptism kit . Ah Irish mammies!

I wouldn't be so light-hearted about it tbh. You need to set boundaries for grandparents and the decision to mark the beginning of a child's indoctrination into a religion is not one I'd be allowing grandparents to make.

lazygal

Sleepy wrote: »

I wouldn't be so light-hearted about it tbh. You need to set boundaries for grandparents and the decision to mark the beginning of a child's indoctrination into a religion is not one I'd be allowing grandparents to make.

+1. You're setting yourself up for communions and confirmations pressure then.

We have been totally straight and firm-there will be no baptisms and no discussion of same as we are a family now and have decided what's right for us. I'd see even a faux baptism as a gross invasion of privacy and a really insulting comment on us as parents and a family, even if performed with the 'nicest' of intentions.

backboiler

Stadler wrote: »

... found a perfect venue in an idyllic setting that does a marriage outdoors in a really scenic spot. ...

You may not realise this but you cannot have a civil wedding ceremony outdoors. It must be in a fixed structure under current laws (Civil Registration Act 2004, section 52 and ministerial order http://www.groireland.ie/guidelines_for_venues.htm). You can of course go to a registry office beforehand (or after, I suppose) and then have a symbolic outdoor ceremony at a different time.

Sleepy

Or you can have a civil ceremony carried out by the Unitarian Church or the Spiritualists (Tom Colton & co) with none of the usual restrictions on civil marriages.

Once the bill Senator Bacik is pushing is passed, hopefully the Humanist Society will be able to carry out weddings in this fashion too.

stinkle

lazygal wrote: »

+1. You're setting yourself up for communions and confirmations pressure then.

We have been totally straight and firm-there will be no baptisms and no discussion of same as we are a family now and have decided what's right for us. I'd see even a faux baptism as a gross invasion of privacy and a really insulting comment on us as parents and a family, even if performed with the 'nicest' of intentions.

Oh I was a little insulted initially, we have no kid plans at the moment but would be firm if we have children in the future. It doesnt really sit right with me that her friend actually did this in reality (child in question has parents of different faiths so was deliberately not being brought up one way or the other). Bizarrely, OH's mam who has a problem with the civil wedding seemed to accept that we wouldn;t be going down the baptism route once she heard about the wedding. Her major concern there was the lack of a "family day out", which of course is what christenings/communions/confirmations is all about....:rolleyes:

stinkle

Sleepy wrote: »

Once the bill Senator Bacik is pushing is passed, hopefully the Humanist Society will be able to carry out weddings in this fashion too.

Does anyone know when/if this is likely by the way? Haven't heard much about it recently. We're probably getting married in 2013, betcha even if it passes soon it wont come into effect for another while after that though.

Sleepy

We're getting married early 2013 ourselves so it won't be in time for us. There's no real indication of when the Bill will be passed or when it's likely to come into effect so really, you need to make other arrangements.

Gatica

Sleepy wrote: »

You need to set boundaries for grandparents and the decision to mark the beginning of a child's indoctrination into a religion is not one I'd be allowing grandparents to make.

oh the whole thing of religious grandparents trying to interfere would really peeve me a lot. I don't care what they think it means for the "salvation" of the children that are not theirs, but there is gonna be no religious ceremonies for any kids of ours if we have them!
I'd already got hints from future MIL about keeping the wedding fruitcake until the firstborn's christening. Not happening! (Lovely lady though, all the same)
We've also too many different religious backgrounds from the different sides of the family. It would be so insulting that one lot would think it would be ok to spray holy water on babies when to someone else that'd be of opposite faith may think it's the devil's work...

eyescreamcone

What it comes down to is whose wedding is it anyway??
And have you the balls to stand up for what you want??
Problem solved!