Re Examining Partiton

paky

Do you think that partition in Ireland was a success or failure? Personally, I think one of the major failures in which partition brought to Ireland was the prominent roles the Catholic and Protestant faiths played in the partitioned states. This left a long legacy of problems in both states and makes one wonder why there existed a need to partition the island in the first place?

meglome

paky wrote: »

Do you think that partition in Ireland was a success or failure? Personally, I think one of the major failures in which partition brought to Ireland was the prominent roles the Catholic and Protestant faiths played in the partitioned states. This left a long legacy of problems in both states and makes one wonder why there existed a need to partition the island in the first place?

While personally I wouldn't be looking for Northern Ireland back I do think partition was a failure. The Protestants in Northern Ireland could have had an influence on the easing the grip of the catholic church in the Republic. I've said this a few times but Northern Ireland is a bit of a basket case which I don't think would have happened if they had to fend in Ireland and not get subsidised by the UK.

Fr Tod Umptious

paky wrote: »

Do you think that partition in Ireland was a success or failure? Personally, I think one of the major failures in which partition brought to Ireland was the prominent roles the Catholic and Protestant faiths played in the partitioned states. This left a long legacy of problems in both states and makes one wonder why there existed a need to partition the island in the first place?

Well the reason was pretty obvious

There was a fairly large and influential section of the comunity on the island that was not interested in home rule, and they were dead right becuase as it turned out it was 'rome rule' as they had predicted.

I am very happy with the Republic of Ireland I was born in and have grown up in and still live in, so I personally don't see it as a failure.

KeithAFC

Partition has been good and in the future will be excellent. Give it another 20 years, people settled down, the conflict long over and things will be even better. So for me, it has been a success so far.

I would like to hear why some people think it hasn't. Consider the years since the GFA too. Northern Ireland can work if it is allowed to in peace.

im invisible

Its too early to tell...

paky

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Well the reason was pretty obvious

There was a fairly large and influential section of the comunity on the island that was not interested in home rule, and they were dead right becuase as it turned out it was 'rome rule' as they had predicted.

they didn't predict anything since it never happened [home rule]. the reason the roman catholic church was so influencial in the freestate/irish republic was becuase of partition. as another poster mentioned, had the protestant community entered into an independent ireland it would have made ireland a more secular state and would have losened the grip of the catholic church. if anything is to blame for the catholic churches influence in this state it is partition and not home rule as you suggest

so your wrong in that respect

blahfckingblah

for me they years of violence signify that it was a failure, yes things have quietened down somewhat in recent years but there is still widespread discontent and tensions. I agree with what the OP says about religions playing too big a part, all that seems to have done is breed sectarianism which unfortunately is still rife in this island.

Pat D. Almighty

KeithAFC wrote: »

Partition has been good and in the future will be excellent. Give it another 20 years, people settled down, the conflict long over and things will be even better. So for me, it has been a success so far.

That's because you're a loyalist.

KeithAFC wrote: »

I would like to hear why some people think it hasn't.

At least 3,524 dead including approx 1,857 innocent civillians.

Yeh, partition has been good!

KeithAFC

Pat D. Almighty wrote: »

That's because you're a loyalist.



At least 3,524 dead including approx 1,857 innocent civillians.

Yeh, partition has been good!

No, it is because it is my opinion. People are saying has partition been good but you also need to consider the future. Partition in peace times is working rather well. Much better than some could have imagined. So give it time.

paky

i think the people in the south are only just beginning to examine the effects partition has had. the south became a theocracy as a result of partition and the north an apartheid state. partition was probably the worst thing that had ever happened to this country and is probably the main reason why its such a hole to live in
some historians have even gone as far as to suggest that the people in the south were in some way incapable of governing themselves and that indepdence was a total shambles. partition was not enivisaged by those who fought for independence and if there is a finger of blame to be pointed at any one thing, that should be partition and the religious governments it brought with it

T runner

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Well the reason was pretty obvious

There was a fairly large and influential section of the comunity on the island that was not interested in home rule, and they were dead right becuase as it turned out it was 'rome rule' as they had predicted.

Unionists politicians didnt even bother to read the home rule Bill.
The Catholic church had an influence on the Free state mainly because the population was 90% Catholic. This could not have been the case in a 32 county state. That could have suceeded either by having a secular state or by having a religious christian state with Catholic, Protestant and Dissenter having equal rights (and other religions having less).

What was predicteable was the de facto apartheid situation in NE deteriorating after giving absolute power to the dominant ethnic group there.
The Catholic population of NI went from 33% to under 20% in 10 years. NI has been a deplorable state. The reason or excuse for this (continued) sectarian behaviour seems to have been a get your retaliation in first attitude.

Remember 10,000 Catholics were physically ejected from their labour by returning Protestant soldiers after WW1. This type of behaviour had been going on for over 300 years and was given official legitamacy by the creation of NI which was very explicitatly going to be a state for Protestants.

I am very happy with the Republic of Ireland I was born in and have grown up in and still live in, so I personally don't see it as a failure.

Free State/ROI was always going to be a success, just like a United Ireland would have been. Ireland would have benefitted enormously by a large population of Protestants having a strong influence on government.

There were several reasons why partition happenned. One was the imminent threat to murder 100,000s of tjhousands of Catholics should any form of United solution occur. (solemn covenenat).

KeithAFC wrote: »

Partition has been good

A sectarian solution for a sectarian province. Partition worked in most of Ireland but predicteably produced sectarian rule from Stormont. There is so much evidence of this that its hardly worth your while disputing.

and in the future will be excellent.

The Brits arent going to pump money in forever you know. Youre living in a bubble up there.

Give it another 20 years, people settled down, the conflict long over and things will be even better.

Its as sectarian as ever. Things will flare up again when a united Ireland will eventually become the most obvious future for Ireland. I see less of a chance of mass murder and violence against teh Catholic population next time so at that stage there will be a decisive political arrangement.

Once the sectarian reason is gone for partition the only obstacle is economic allignment, and thats taking palce all the time now.

So for me, it has been a success so far.

You judge success only by Protestants staying out of a UI for reasons few and irrational.

I would like to hear why some people think it hasn't. Consider the years since the GFA too. Northern Ireland can work if it is allowed to in peace.[/QUOTE]

Still loads of KAT signs around Belfast. Doesnt look like its working for the next generation growing up either.

Sooner this country is a secular Republic the better.

T runner

paky wrote: »

i think the people in the south are only just beginning to examine the effects partition has had. the south became a theocracy as a result of partition and the north an apartheid state. partition was probably the worst thing that had ever happened to this country and is probably the main reason why its such a hole to live in
some historians have even gone as far as to suggest that the people in the south were in some way incapable of governing themselves and that indepdence was a total shambles. partition was not enivisaged by those who fought for independence and if there is a finger of blame to be pointed at any one thing, that should be partition and the religious governments it brought with it

Exactly. A sectarian solution was only going to prolong division here. That unfortunately was exactly what Unionists wanted. They have no issue with division, or apartheid so long as they are holding the power and the official guns.

Pat D. Almighty

KeithAFC wrote: »

No, it is because it is my opinion...

An opinion forged by a loyalist mindset

woodoo

KeithAFC wrote: »

Partition has been good and in the future will be excellent. Give it another 20 years, people settled down, the conflict long over and things will be even better. So for me, it has been a success so far.

I would like to hear why some people think it hasn't. .

I'll tell you Kieth and i'm flabbergasted that after all the Northern Ireland threads that you have been involved in you can't see it.

Almost half of the population of Northern Ireland were treated like ****. They felt Northern Ireland was a cold place for them and they were discriminated against. You can't even acknowledge their recent history.

If you want your state to have a decent future you need to acknowledge the feelings of your fellow citizens. If as i suspect you do not value them as equal co-country men then your peaceful happy utopia of the future NI is nothing but a farce.

To answer the OP's question Partition has not been good. Anyone living in the boarder region would tell you that.

john reilly

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Well the reason was pretty obvious

There was a fairly large and influential section of the comunity on the island that was not interested in home rule, and they were dead right becuase as it turned out it was 'rome rule' as they had predicted.

I am very happy with the Republic of Ireland I was born in and have grown up in and still live in, so I personally don't see it as a failure.

rome rule would be a pleasure in comparison to the brand of prodestants in the north of ireland. they would make the catholic church look liberal.
as for being happy in the republic. thats the important part dont mind that a large percentage of your fellow irishmen were suffering at the hands of unionist. the people who created the border were very good at turning a blind eye at the mess they made.

paky

i think the south suffered in its own right at the hands of the catholic church. the church has left a disgraceful legacy of shame on this country and anyone who was brought up in the industrial schools will tell of the horrors they faced. not to mention the sex abuse scandals that went on for decades, the church itself was untouchable. they contributed to the very demise of this country and i think people in general fail to see that.

KeithAFC

A sectarian solution for a sectarian province. Partition worked in most of Ireland but predicteably produced sectarian rule from Stormont. There is so much evidence of this that its hardly worth your while disputing.

Again, you are living in the past 50+ years ago. Things have largely moved on. I have always said the Orange and Green card is still in play up here but this nonsense about oppression is just tedious and I do wish it would be left out debates on this.

The Brits arent going to pump money in forever you know. Youre living in a bubble up there.

We have been fine for a long time now. I don't see this changing any time soon.

Its as sectarian as ever. Things will flare up again when a united Ireland will eventually become the most obvious future for Ireland. I see less of a chance of mass murder and violence against teh Catholic population next time so at that stage there will be a decisive political arrangement.

Once the sectarian reason is gone for partition the only obstacle is economic allignment, and thats taking palce all the time now.

It isn't as sectarian as ever. It also depends what you mean by "sectarian". Our politics involves it. It is grown from that. But if you mean sectarian killings and violence, then no it isn't. That is just nonsense.

You judge success only by Protestants staying out of a UI for reasons few and irrational.

Why bring up Protestants? If the Protestant people in Northern Ireland want to maintain the Union, they are perfectly entitled to have that opinion and vote in favour of it.

I'll tell you Kieth and i'm flabbergasted that after all the Northern Ireland threads that you have been involved in you can't see it.

Almost half of the population of Northern Ireland were treated like ****. They felt Northern Ireland was a cold place for them and they were discriminated against. You can't even acknowledge their recent history.

If you want your state to have a decent future you need to acknowledge the feelings of your fellow citizens. If as i suspect you do not value them as equal co-country men then your peaceful happy utopia of the future NI is nothing but a farce.

To answer the OP's question Partition has not been good. Anyone living in the boarder region would tell you that.

Again, living in the 1960s and going over the same old ground again. It is completely irrelevant what happened 50-60 years ago. I don't want to get back into that again. I now prefer to just focus on the current political climate and I see no real urge for a United Ireland.

murphaph

paky wrote: »

they didn't predict anything since it never happened [home rule]. the reason the roman catholic church was so influencial in the freestate/irish republic was becuase of partition. as another poster mentioned, had the protestant community entered into an independent ireland it would have made ireland a more secular state and would have losened the grip of the catholic church. if anything is to blame for the catholic churches influence in this state it is partition and not home rule as you suggest

so your wrong in that respect

He's not wrong, he's dead right. You are blaming our inability to prevent priests raping kids on an absent protestant minority?

What about other 90%+ catholic states that didn't have the same levels of child abuse by their clergy? How do you explain those states and the vastly lower levels of abuse in them?

The protestants were dead right not wanting to be part of that Ireland. The RoI in 2012 has its problems, but it will recover from them.

Partition was the only show in town tbh. We had a bloody enough civil war in the new Freestate without the UVF being involved. If Britain had imposed Home Rule on the whole island, there would have been a much longer, more violent civil war.

The protestant government of NI went on to make huge mistakes wrt their treatment of the catholic minority, but that's not an indictment of partition any more than raping priests in the south is or was. It's an indictment of the protestant government itself and its inability to deal a fair hand.

Both sides of the border saw some twisted governance, but it's wishful thinking to imagine that no partition would have seen these effects somehow cancel themselves out.

In 2012 borders are increasingly irrelevant anyway.

woodoo

murphaph wrote: »

What about other 90%+ catholic states that didn't have the same levels of child abuse by their clergy? How do you explain those states and the vastly lower levels of abuse in them?.

They may not have got such a stranglehold that they were above the law. They had Guards and Politicians in their pockets.

Fr Tod Umptious

I really cannot believe that people here are now actually blaming Northern Protestants for the problems the Catholic church caused in the ROI over the past 90 odd years.

paky

murphaph wrote: »

Both sides of the border saw some twisted governance, but it's wishful thinking to imagine that no partition would have seen these effects somehow cancel themselves out.

there is no way the north would have behaved in the manner in which it did had there been a unified government. the same goes for the catholic churches influence in the south.

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

I really cannot believe that people here are now actually blaming Northern Protestants for the problems the Catholic church caused in the ROI over the past 90 odd years.

nobody is, your just been silly

john reilly

murphaph wrote: »

He's not wrong, he's dead right. You are blaming our inability to prevent priests raping kids on an absent protestant minority?

What about other 90%+ catholic states that didn't have the same levels of child abuse by their clergy? How do you explain those states and the vastly lower levels of abuse in them?

The protestants were dead right not wanting to be part of that Ireland. The RoI in 2012 has its problems, but it will recover from them.

Partition was the only show in town tbh. We had a bloody enough civil war in the new Freestate without the UVF being involved. If Britain had imposed Home Rule on the whole island, there would have been a much longer, more violent civil war.

The protestant government of NI went on to make huge mistakes wrt their treatment of the catholic minority, but that's not an indictment of partition any more than raping priests in the south is or was. It's an indictment of the protestant government itself and its inability to deal a fair hand.

Both sides of the border saw some twisted governance, but it's wishful thinking to imagine that no partition would have seen these effects somehow cancel themselves out.

In 2012 borders are increasingly irrelevant anyway.

the reason people had such a strong catholic faith and acceptance of their control would be because of british protestants trying to eliminate it. this made it stronger and people more protective of it. so in fact you can blame ulster protestants for what happened in the south and north. as for civil war if we had gotten a 32 county ireland the entire irish community would be united and the only one fighting would be uvf and it wouldnt take long to realise that was pointless instead we still have a war going on. do you really think that was the best outcome and we have yet to have a united ireland that might cause another year or so of unionist fighting anyway

Fr Tod Umptious

john reilly wrote: »

the reason people had such a strong catholic faith and acceptance of their control would be because of british protestants trying to eliminate it. this made it stronger and people more protective of it. so in fact you can blame ulster protestants for what happened in the south and north. as for civil war if we had gotten a 32 county ireland the entire irish community would be united and the only one fighting would be uvf and it wouldnt take long to realise that was pointless instead we still have a war going on. do you really think that was the best outcome and we have yet to have a united ireland that might cause another year or so of unionist fighting anyway

I think you are seriously under estimating the opposition to a united Ireland that existed within the unionist community in the north 100 odd years ago.
I really do not believe that they would have given their opposition to it up as a pointless exercise after a year or so and embraced a single Ireland dominated (1918 general election as an example) by nationalists.

junder

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

I really cannot believe that people here are now actually blaming Northern Protestants for the problems the Catholic church caused in the ROI over the past 90 odd years.

actully i can, par for the course for a lot of republicans on this site.

Scofflaw

Don't start the trench warfare, lads.

moderately,
Scofflaw