Wasps in danger.

liammur

Wasps are in grave danger of going into administration unless they can attract new investment by the end of the Aviva Premiership season, following the collapse of takeover talks.

http://www.sportinglife.com/rugbyunion/news/story_get.cgi?STORY_NAME=rugby/12/04/10/RUGBYU_Wasps.html&BID=504

There is a lesson to be learnt here. Even though English teams are complaining about salary caps, clubs must be prudent. Welsh regions are also in turmoil, let's hope the IRFU get tough with any players looking to be greedy.

ambid

liammur wrote: »

Wasps are in grave danger of going into administration unless they can attract new investment by the end of the Aviva Premiership season, following the collapse of takeover talks.

http://www.sportinglife.com/rugbyunion/news/story_get.cgi?STORY_NAME=rugby/12/04/10/RUGBYU_Wasps.html&BID=504

There is a lesson to be learnt here. Even though English teams are complaining about salary caps, clubs must be prudent. Welsh regions are also in turmoil, let's hope the IRFU get tough with any players looking to be greedy.

I disagree with your characterisation of players as "greedy". It is unnecessary to use such a pejorative and unfair term.

Players are entitled to maximise their earning potential in their very short career. I don't begrudge them anything they earn.

liammur

ambid wrote: »

I disagree with your characterisation of players as "greedy". It is unnecessary to use such a pejorative and unfair term.

Players are entitled to maximise their earning potential in their very short career. I don't begrudge them anything they earn.

I don't begrudge them either, but the IRFU also have a responsibility to be prudent.

leftleg

liammur wrote: »

let's hope the IRFU get tough with any players looking to be greedy.

The players will get wise to that and just dress up as tramps so, that should guarantee they can get that dream move to a big club and then they can just siphon and drain the club off all its money.

Go on outta that will you.

thomond2006

Unbelievable to think Wasps are in this predicament, if you have had predicted this 5/6 years ago you would have been laughed at.

It really started to go downhill when Dallaghio retired.

liammur

thomond2006 wrote: »

Unbelievable to think Wasps are in this predicament, if you have had predicted this 5/6 years ago you would have been laughed at.

It really started to go downhill when Dallaghio retired.

Spot on. They were 1 of the best club sides in Europe. Just goes to show what can happen. There must have been poor management of the club as well.

Digifriendly

When Ian McGeechan and Sean Edwards were there it was a different story.

Deano7788

http://planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,16024_7665742,00.html

They might be in danger but they're after making 2 big signings for next year, Stephen Jones from the Scarlets and Ashley Johnson from the Cheetahs

its_phil

Posted this in signings thread too (not arsed deleting right now) but if they go into administration I hope they aren't allowed into Europe next season.

thomond2006

It's almost like they are using the signing announcements (I'd say they have been agreed for a while) to deflect attention away from the current negative press.

Jones is 34 and past it, shows how bad Wasps have fallen.

irishbucsfan

its_phil wrote: »

Posted this in signings thread too (not arsed deleting right now) but if they go into administration I hope they aren't allowed into Europe next season.

Unlikely they'll qualify now anyway I think.

its_phil

irishbucsfan wrote: »

its_phil wrote: »

Deano7788 wrote: »

http://planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,16024_7665742,00.html

Wasps sign Stephen Jones

That is pathetic. On brink of administration and they sign a player like that. If they go into administration I really do hope they are not allowed into European competition, because they are cheating.

So should Munster have to cancel their signings because they can't turn a profit? How far do you want these rules to go?

Wasps need to stay competitive. If they aren't competing in the transfer market it will slow them on the pitch. Unless they're exceeding their salary cap, how are they cheating?

It's not about profit, it's about being able to repay your debts.

They are spending money that doesn't exsist. So that 'money' is going towards players they can't afford to keep and these players are helping get results for the club.

It's got nothing to do with a salary cap if they can't afford to use money they don't have, they are cheating. The players aren't doing it, the coaches aren't doing it but the chairman of the club has and Wasps have to be punished.

What if Newcastle go down instead and Wasps hold off going into administration until the summer to avoid a points reduction for the previous season, is that fair?

If wasps get a buyer that prevents them going into administration I have no problem with that! I'm truly delighted! But if they can't get one and get a fresh start with TV money from the premiership and ERC, that Newcastle now miss out on, is it fair? It's cheating on the other Premiership clubs that are running sustainable business that live with in their means and meet their due debts.

irishbucsfan

Munster can't pay their debt on Thomond Park though. Should they be banned from making signings or playing in Europe until they can? Of course not. I think its unfair for Irish people to cast opinions on English clubs while our provinces operate outside their means in exactly the same way, propped up by the IRFU.

Wasps problem is their owner can't afford to keep them on any more and they're not going to get support for the new stadium they want now.

They've signed two journeymen, neither of whom were starting at their previous clubs.

What are they supposed to do? Stop spending money and just slink away into the national league? That is exactly what would put them under.

liammur

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Munster can't pay their debt on Thomond Park though. QUOTE]

Provide evidence of this.

irishbucsfan

liammur wrote: »

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Munster can't pay their debt on Thomond Park though.

Provide evidence of this.

Sorry I shoukdnt have said can't, I should have said haven't. I have every faith that Munster will pay off that debt. Not through their own means though. Last season Munster didn't make repayments.

Munster have now made a loss this season. That means nothing to them. It's a lot more serious for an independent club like Wasps who have to be self sufficient, something the Irish provinces have never been.

liammur

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Sorry I shoukdnt have said can't, I should have said haven't. I have every faith that Munster will pay off that debt. Not through their own means though. Last season Munster didn't make repayments.

Munster have now made a loss this season. That means nothing to them. It's a lot more serious for an independent club like Wasps who have to be self sufficient, something the Irish provinces have never been.

That means clubs like wasps have to be far more prudent.
If someone like JP McManus gives Munster more cash, to pay off debt, who really cares? If wasps find a backer, who really cares where they got the cash?

its_phil

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Munster can't pay their debt on Thomond Park though. Should they be banned from making signings or playing in Europe until they can? Of course not. I think its unfair for Irish people to cast opinions on English clubs while our provinces operate outside their means in exactly the same way, propped up by the IRFU.

Wasps problem is their owner can't afford to keep them on any more and they're not going to get support for the new stadium they want now.

They've signed two journeymen, neither of whom were starting at their previous clubs.

What are they supposed to do? Stop spending money and just slink away into the national league? That is exactly what would put them under.

There is nothing wrong with having debt as long as you can pay it like clearly Munster can. Every club makes losses at sometime but its whether you can operate at those losses. Wasps have taken on debt that they cant afford to repay as opposed to Munster who can afford to pay off their debt to creditors. Wasps used money they don't have to boost their hopes of staying in the league (which is only barely working) and are gaining an unfair advantage over their competitors who are living within their own means.

And yes they are supposed to stop spending money they don't have. It's the accumulation of debt over years I'd guess which means they didn't have it a few years back when Dallalgio and co were there. That is a guess but £2m debt with no stadium repayments (they rent training facilities and Adams Park) probably means they spent too much on salaries. I can't imagine Adams Park costs much in rent considering it isn't the most up to date ground either.

Wasps don't even have any assets to put up as security against loans they may have taken out. Their only assets are players and any worthwhile have all long gone. They may have to ask the returning Haskell to look elsewhere. They basically have nothing to liquidate if they go under.

I'm sorry to see them in their sorry state but if they don't get a new buyer who can negotiate their debts, relegation is a fair punishment. They have taken an unfair financial advatage over their competitiors and need a punishment that is fitting of the crime. It may set the club back a couple of years but they'll come back like Quins and Northampton have before them. But their greatest disadvantage is having no stadium of their own. They were terribly unlucky not to get permission for their stadium. Promoted clubs like Quins, Northampton and Exeter were able to build their now very stable clubs on ground they called their own.

Honestly best of luck to Wasps with finding a new owner. They are a great club and the people of High Wycome are lovely people as I found out last year when I was there for two weeks. I'm sure they'll find one, Wasps is still a very marketable brand but I'd still be worried.

thomond2006

Wasps lost today and Newcastle won, meaning Wasps are 4 points ahead of Newcastle with 2 games to go in the league. Looks like their meeting on the last weekend will be a relegation decider. Bonus points are huge now.

Round 21:
Newcastle vs Saracens
Bath vs Wasps

Round 22:
Wasps vs Newcastle

http://www.premiershiprugby.com/premiership/rugby/index.php

padser

irishbucsfan wrote: »

They've signed two journeymen, neither of whom were starting at their previous clubs.

.

Thomand described Jones as "past it" which is probably fair enough given he is 34.

To describe him as a journeyman given that he had 6 Lions caps, over 100 welch caps, over 1000 international points and a few grand slams and has played most of his career at one club is way off the mark.

In no sense of the of the word is he a journeyman.

liammur

padser wrote: »

Thomand described Jones as "past it" which is probably fair enough given he is 34.

To describe him as a journeyman given that he had 6 Lions caps, over 100 welch caps, over 1000 international points and a few grand slams and has played most of his career at one club is way off the mark.

In no sense of the of the word is he a journeyman.

Absolutely ridiculous to call him a journeyman, we can only assume the poster doesn't understand the meaning of the word.

irishbucsfan

Journeyman was the completely wrong thing to call him. I wasn't thinking straight. He's been a one club man up to this point so couldnt be any more wrong!

I should have said average.

durkadurka

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Journeyman was the completely wrong thing to call him. I wasn't thinking straight. He's been a one club man up to this point so couldnt be any more wrong!

I should have said average.

He's played in France for a bit and maybe England hasn't he? Still not a journeyman though.

Edit : yes clermont for 2 years

irishbucsfan

durkadurka wrote: »

He's played in France for a bit and maybe England hasn't he? Still not a journeyman though.

Edit : yes clermont for 2 years

Yeah he was quite good for Clermont I thought.

liammur

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Journeyman was the completely wrong thing to call him. I wasn't thinking straight. He's been a one club man up to this point so couldnt be any more wrong!

I should have said average.

I think he was quite a good player in his day, but now, I think he's even below average.

theKramer

liammur wrote: »

I think he was quite a good player in his day, but now, I think he's even below average.

And doesnt have the b@lls to go for a drop goal...

RadioClash

I was under the understanding that Munster were in fact ahead of schedule in their repayments for Thomond. Not sure where I got that from but I thought I heard it somewhere in the media.

CIARAN_BOYLE

RadioClash wrote: »

I was under the understanding that Munster were in fact ahead of schedule in their repayments for Thomond. Not sure where I got that from but I thought I heard it somewhere in the media.

http://www.irishrugby.ie/downloads/IRFU_Annual_Report_201011.pdf

If you look at page 46 you will notice that the loan to the IRFU as at 30/4/11 stood at €10,661,778. Also on page 46 you will notice that the terms of the loan state that the amount outstanding on that date is not to exceed €7,753,000. So almost 3 million behind schedule.

[Jackass]

liammur wrote: »

Provide evidence of this.

Well he's not too wide of the mark. Munster are operating at a loss in the region of a six figure sum for the year just gone.

"Unexpectedly lowattendances at RaboDirect games during the World Cup last autumn, increased bank interest rates on the loan on Thomond Park and the absence of any revenue-generating concert at the stadium this year hit the province, said Fitzgerald."

http://www.breakingnews.ie/sport/?c=rugby&e=examiner&jp=kfsnaukfgbgb

thomond2006

http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,3551_7688547,00.html

Newcastle 3-9 Saracens, it means Newcastle are 3 points behind Wasps, who still have to travel to Bath this weekend. A win for Wasps relegates Newcastle.

ongarite

Wasps lose 17-12 to Bath but get a crucial losing BP.

thomond2006

So Newcastle have to win next week and deny Wasps a bonus point.

thomond2006

Therefore, Newcastle must beat Wasps with a four try bonus point in the final game to stay up. What’s more, they must not allow Wasps to pick up a losing bonus point. Lastly, if they are unable to win scoring four tries, then they must win by 48 points.
Is this too much for Newcastle to do? Or can they pull off a miracle?

Read more at http://www.therugbyblog.co.uk/wasps-snatch-crucial-losing-bonus-point-before-newcastle-decider#0rPuqz5jZp0Tgtf1.99

CatFromHue

thomond2006 wrote: »

Is this too much for Newcastle to do? Or can they pull off a miracle?

Read more at http://www.therugbyblog.co.uk/wasps-snatch-crucial-losing-bonus-point-before-newcastle-decider#0rPuqz5jZp0Tgtf1.99

From what I saw in the last 20 mins or so of the Newcastle Saracens game last night it might just be that miracle.

Newcastle had alot of the ball but kept crashing up through the forwards. I do mean crashing it up too. They'd no pods or dummy runners, it was straight up pass it to a big guy and he'd crash it up himself. I was wondering why they never tried and spin it out the backs. They eventually did this and I could see why they kept it in the forwards for so long and was happy enough for them to not give the ball to the backs anymore.

Of course that was all I've seen of them all season.

Considering they've the second lowest amount of tries scored all season averaging just over 1 per game it doesn't look good for them.

ongarite

Wasps in control, 10-0 up at HT.
Crucial try just before HT as Newcastle were dominating but not converting chances before that.

thomond2006

It's on ESPN Classic so it's available for those without the Sky Sports subscription. I've been watching it and there's no way Newcastle are going to score 4 tries.

its_phil

Try Newcastle with Wasps prop in the bin

thomond2006

Newcastle relegated. They did everything they could since Gary Gold arrived, it was their results under Tait that proved their undoing.

Hagz

thomond2006 wrote: »

Newcastle relegated.

Not yet. Bristol have to win the championship.

its_phil

thomond2006 wrote: »

Newcastle relegated. They did everything they could since Gary Gold arrived, it was their results under Tait that proved their undoing.

And Sam Vesty

OldRio

A bit of a farce regarding Newcastle finishing bottom.
If Bristol do not win the Championship play offs Newcastle stay up.

irishbucsfan

OldRio wrote: »

A bit of a farce regarding Newcastle finishing bottom.
If Bristol do not win the Championship play offs Newcastle stay up.

It's not a farce, it's a rule that's in place for very good reason.

thomond2006

Hagz wrote: »

Not yet. Bristol have to win the championship.

That's right yeah.

OldRio

Well imho if you are bottom of the league all season you deserve all thats coming to you.

its_phil

OldRio wrote: »

Well imho if you are bottom of the league all season you deserve all thats coming to you.

So another team who simply can't compete in the Premiership come up and stay there all next season?

OldRio

Like Exeter ???????

lologram

OldRio wrote: »

Like Exeter ???????

Exeter don't have financial issues. That's the issue at hand.

its_phil

OldRio wrote: »

Like Exeter ???????

Seen as Exeter applied for licence to come into the Premiership, whereas London Welsh, Cornish Pirates, and Bedford have not which is their own choice.

OldRio

I was under the impression it was about who was the primary owner of the ground?

porterbelly

its_phil wrote: »

Seen as Exeter applied for licence to come into the Premiership, whereas London Welsh, Cornish Pirates, and Bedford have not which is their own choice.

Their grounds aren't up to scratch so they can't apply

OldRio

its_phil wrote: »

Seen as Exeter applied for licence to come into the Premiership, whereas London Welsh, Cornish Pirates, and Bedford have not which is their own choice.

You will find you are incorrect.

irishbucsfan

The idea of Bedford playing in the premiership is laughable. It'd do far more harm than good.

The fans over here understand the rules anyway.