Is the right to protest all right?

lugha

There is a mantra that appears to be nominally respected right across the political spectrum, which proclaims that the people have a right to protest. I wonder if there is a case to moderate this right, on the grounds that it does not serve us well?

And this would not be a novel idea in our rules and regulations. For example, on the other side of the fence (in a certain respect) we embrace the free market and proclaim that competition is good. But we don’t want one a competitor to be so good that they see off the other competition completely, leading to a monopoly.

Or in many enterprises, information is a critical resource. But we have insider trading laws, which restrict how people might employ information in certain circumstances.

Perhaps someone might offer more in depth reasons for our regulations in these two scenarios, but broadly speaking, I would say we have such “exception to the rules” rules because it is in our best interest to have them.

There is the additional difficulty with protests in that the success of the protest is in general, uncorrelated with its merit. Thus for example, home carers can expect to make little headway in winning concessions from the government whereas say, public sector unions (and the trade union is one logical consequence of the right to protest) can expect to do considerably better, especially if they have charge of some critical services such as some ESB workers.

I ask the question (and it is largely rhetorical) in light of the public sector unions and the Croke Park agreement. I think it is reasonable to surmise that our path to recovery had been unduly shaped (and perhaps not for the better!) by a very well organised group, exercising their right to protest.

Is their a case for measures to restrain the right to protest (i.e. the unions) in the greater interests of the state, or are there any measures that are possible to apply that wouldn’t ultimately do more harm?

Slydice

Hmmm, I don't think the public sector unions really have protested all that much. They had a few lunchtime marches here and there over the last few years but nothing that seemed to mean much. Unless, by protest, you mean them voicing their opinions?

MadsL

If only the Irish people has protested more then Ireland might not be in this mess. As to the right to protest, every iteration of Criminal Justice type acts remove more and more legitimate rights to protest. Gardai now regularly quote section this and that of the Public Order act to get effectively what they want to happen rather than upholding Article 40.6 of the constitution

'The State guarantees liberty for the exercise of the following rights, subject to public order and morality:

i. The right of the citizens to express freely their convictions and opinions and the education of public opinion ...' and

ii. The right of the citizens to assemble peaceably and without arms.

I find it downright annoying and counter to that article of the constitution to have a Garda camera shoved in my face "for security reasons" when exercising my right of peaceable assembly.

So in my view, the right to protest is being undermined globally, never mind in Ireland. Watch for more fear-mongering and repressive laws being passed in the wake of Occupy.

DB21

People should protest. People in this country should protest a lot more in fact. And people should stop heaping scorn on those who do take a stand for their rights. I dread to think what sort of a reception people would give a revolution today.

Pat D. Almighty

They might cut your dole if you protest. In this mans case, they did.
Shocking stuff!
http://www.anphoblacht.com/contents/21763

Pat D. Almighty

Pat D. Almighty wrote: »

They might cut your dole if you protest. In this mans case, they did.
Shocking stuff!
http://www.anphoblacht.com/contents/21763

Sorry. Proper order. He could have requested the time off (holiday pay) from the social welfare to do his protest and they would have permitted it.

When you sign on, you sign on because you are looking for work and are available for work. In his four days protesting, he was not looking for work or available to work.

The dole is not an entitlement. It's an allowance. With terms and conditions.

lugha

Slydice wrote: »

Hmmm, I don't think the public sector unions really have protested all that much. They had a few lunchtime marches here and there over the last few years but nothing that seemed to mean much. Unless, by protest, you mean them voicing their opinions?

Well it isn’t the actual physical act of protest or voicing an opinion that is the issue. It is the leverage they could potentially apply in terms of industrial actions or even their electoral strength by virtue of their number.

And a consequence of this, some would argue, is that reducing costs in the public sector is being unduly delayed, to the general detriment of the country. (Perhaps the case for moderation might be considered for all lobbying groups and not just trade unions?)

DB21 wrote: »

People should protest. People in this country should protest a lot more in fact. And people should stop heaping scorn on those who do take a stand for their rights.

In most cases, groups take a stand for their interests rather than their rights. And frequently, if they succeed, it will be at the expense of someone else.

Case in point, the pensioner protest over the medical card. There was much cheer leading over this “victory” for the people. Of course there was no net victory. Others unspecified in society had to take on the burden that the pensioners refused. And this happened, not because of the merits of the pensioner’s case, but because they had the ability (and time, if you want to be cynical) to prosecute their protest.

Thus is it not the case that an inevitable consequence of the right to this kind of protest (where a gain is someone else's loss) , despite its initial superficial appeal, is that the more powerful and organised will shoulder a lesser burden while the more vulnerable most bear more? Surely this is hardly a satisfactory state of affairs?

usernamegoes

MadsL wrote: »

If only the Irish people has protested more then Ireland might not be in this mess. As to the right to protest, every iteration of Criminal Justice type acts remove more and more legitimate rights to protest. Gardai now regularly quote section this and that of the Public Order act to get effectively what they want to happen rather than upholding Article 40.6 of the constitution



I find it downright annoying and counter to that article of the constitution to have a Garda camera shoved in my face "for security reasons" when exercising my right of peaceable assembly.

So in my view, the right to protest is being undermined globally, never mind in Ireland. Watch for more fear-mongering and repressive laws being passed in the wake of Occupy.

I tend to agree with you. We do seem to be allowing various public order legislation limiting our rights to assemble in public. Seems the test to limit assembly are quite low.

I also think that political speech isn't protected enough. I don't recall the details exactly, but a few months ago one TD called another TD a liar on the radio and it was removed from the replay later that day. Surely this should be protected speech in line with the US' concept in relation to politics i.e. say whatever you want, the answer to bad speech in more speech.

Denerick

Clearly there are limits. Librarians go on strike = protest (Nobody cares) Nurses go on strike = hospital paralysis = protest? The line between civil disobedience and outright civil conflict is very fine indeed. On balance, its better not to mess with such fundamental liberties because I would find it impossible to trust another human being in making such a distinction. I would even extend that logic to neo-nazi's and other odious groups.

On the other hand, people always make a lazy assumption that the right to protest carries with it a certain dignity that makes them impervious to criticism. Calling these people morons (They usually are, to be honest) elicits the familiar inchoate rage which is customary to the professional protestor. Rarely does much light emerge from the sound and fury of the political protest in a liberal democracy - it merely re-inforces the often unjust privileges of an elite insider cabal (Public sector trade unions, as an example)

In an undemocratic country, such as apartheid South Africa, Russia or present day Syria, the right to protest must be upheld as the fundamental human right it is. But the lazy assumption that this always lends relevance to petty and self serving protests in liberal democracies is fraught with danger. I support the right of people living in democracies to protest (As they really wouldn't be democracies without this freedom), but I think many of those who indulge in this frivolity need to think long and hard about what they're doing, and if they merely stand to add to the inchoate rage that accomplishes nothing and benefits no-one.

Much more would be accomplished if the Irish people grew a set of balls and accepted that they are as much to blame for the economic crisis as any politician, as they were the ones who consistently voted for the political and economic consensus (All three parties) that created the disaster as is. A truly virtuous citizenry would be fully accountable to their mistakes and learn the truth - the full truth - before making excuses and blaming individuals. Everybody knew Bertie Ahern and the Fianna Fail establishment were utterly corrupt... but what did they do about it? Protesting won't change the fundamental reality of why we are to blame for what we created.

(I realise I'm something of a voice in the wilderness by holding such an 'unconventional' opinion)

The Waltzing Consumer

Nothing wrong with protesting. Have lots of problems with the types of protests in the last few weeks where they target political parties conferences, attack members of the public and target people who bare a physical resemblance to Phil Hogan :rolleyes:

The protest yesterday
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/demonstrators-take-on-gardai-outside-labour-conference-3081360.html?start=7

is another example of protests I do not like. It is a form of intimidation rather then protest, and puts Gardai in a very difficult position. No one has the right to break into a democratic meeting like this, attack Gardai and threaten journalists.

But as always, Richard Boyd Barrett has an excuse and can blame someone else, he usually blames the Gardai for brutality, not this time, this time, Richard "claimed their peaceful demonstration had been "hijacked" by large numbers of demonstrators who were seen speaking into mobile phones in a foreign language."

Did he just blame foreigners?

The SWP leader has also in the past been part of protests that tried to storm the Dail in 2010 with a handful of Eirigi members and SWP members putting Gardai and army personnal in an extremely difficult position.

So yes, everyone has the right to protest, the problem is we have parties who use fear, intimidation and violence against civilians, journalists and Gardai, and then near always claim brutality and that their protest was peaceful.

CatFromHue

For every right you have a duty. The second part of that sentence tends to be forgotten alot unfortunately.

Fussgangerzone

Denerick wrote: »

Much more would be accomplished if the Irish people grew a set of balls and accepted that they are as much to blame for the economic crisis as any politician, as they were the ones who consistently voted for the political and economic consensus (All three parties) that created the disaster as is.

Unless of course, you didn't vote for the current or previous governments, in which case you are fully entitled to protest them.

Speaking as a taxpayer who has never needed state support.
I don't like the decisions being made by and for our government.
I haven't seen scientific evidence for the Washington Consensus as espoused by the IMF, WTO, World Bank, Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael.
I have seen it do more harm than good.
I see my country deteriorating in front of my eyes.
I see family members leaving to find work.
I do the maths and see that austerity is killing our economy, not saving it.
I see all the predictions of how well it, and the bailout before it, would work being proved wrong.

On May Day, I'll be part of the protest, for the first time in my life, and I'm not getting any younger.
And that makes me a moron in your eyes?
Look in the mirror.

meglome

Denerick wrote: »

Much more would be accomplished if the Irish people grew a set of balls and accepted that they are as much to blame for the economic crisis as any politician, as they were the ones who consistently voted for the political and economic consensus (All three parties) that created the disaster as is. A truly virtuous citizenry would be fully accountable to their mistakes and learn the truth - the full truth - before making excuses and blaming individuals. Everybody knew Bertie Ahern and the Fianna Fail establishment were utterly corrupt... but what did they do about it? Protesting won't change the fundamental reality of why we are to blame for what we created.

I wouldn't hold by breath.

MadsL wrote: »

If only the Irish people has protested more then Ireland might not be in this mess.

Well I'd take a step back there and say if only we'd looked carefully at who we were voting for and why. Some of the protests we have seen were around the stable after the horse had long bolted and been turned into glue.

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

The protest yesterday
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/demonstrators-take-on-gardai-outside-labour-conference-3081360.html?start=7

But as always, Richard Boyd Barrett has an excuse and can blame someone else, he usually blames the Gardai for brutality, not this time, this time, Richard "claimed their peaceful demonstration had been "hijacked" by large numbers of demonstrators who were seen speaking into mobile phones in a foreign language."

Did he just blame foreigners?

I'm no fan of Richard Boyd Barrett but I actually couldn't believe he'd said that. A new low IMO.

legendary.xix

These protestors need a political group that will listen and stand up for their manifesto. We're supposed to be living in a democracy. That is the ultimate test.

Fussgangerzone

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

But as always, Richard Boyd Barrett has an excuse and can blame someone else, he usually blames the Gardai for brutality, not this time, this time, Richard "claimed their peaceful demonstration had been "hijacked" by large numbers of demonstrators who were seen speaking into mobile phones in a foreign language."

Did he just blame foreigners?

Eh, if you read TFA you'll see there is no such quote attributed to him.

Politicians leading the demonstration, including the People Before Profit TD Richard Boyd Barrett, claimed their peaceful demonstration had been "hijacked" by large numbers of demonstrators who were seen speaking into mobile phones in a foreign language.

Mr Boyd Barrett said he didn't see any violence but heard there had been some scuffles. "I believe there was some pushing and shoving but I can't comment on any violence as I didn't see it," he told the Sunday Independent.

-from the Indo

In fact, there isn't one flippin person on record as saying anything about foreigners. Typical anti-activist tactic from INM, try and convince the thickos that protestors are "not even bleedin Irish".

firedancer

Deleted User wrote: »

Sorry. Proper order. He could have requested the time off (holiday pay) from the social welfare to do his protest and they would have permitted it.

When you sign on, you sign on because you are looking for work and are available for work. In his four days protesting, he was not looking for work or available to work.

The dole is not an entitlement. It's an allowance. With terms and conditions.

How are the dole recipients of Occupy Galway getting away with it for so long?
Every day I walk through the city centre and see notices up (increasingly so as we approach tourist season) in shops, bars, restaurants looking for waiting staff, kitchen porters, cleaners etc.
The self proclaimed 'protestors' in Eyre Square are the same people there since last October. These people and the Rossport 'protestors' especially are costing the State a fortune to police. They have achieved nothing, and in fact the last protest in Galway which was aimed at the Labour party conference assembled in Eyre Square but remained very clearly apart from the Occupy camp there, and the camp was empty the whole day apart from a couple of their own guys.

It was blatantly obvious the many other groups who travelled to Galway to protest, and including other Galway groups who were also there, were not interested in being linked or associated with Occupy Galway.


It's going to cost to remove them from there when that happens and it will.
Add to that a gobsmacking post on OG's website :http://www.occupygalway.org/resources/minutes-of-assemblies-2/
they are now flying in the face of the whole Occupy movement of freedom of assembly to protest by insisting on membership forms and membership fees!!!


These people are compromising the majority's right to protest by simply taking the p*** for their own selfish agenda.