Is my driving instructor correct?

dillo2k10

Hi,

I just had a lesson and there was two things I thought my driving instructor was wrong about.

First he told me to indicate off a mini roundabout, which I thought was wrong, I thought you just indicated right if you were going right or left if you were going left. No indication if you're going straight on. I thought you just indicated off a normal sized roundabout.

He also told me to indicate around parked cars when there was no one behind me. I thought if there was no one to indicate to then you don't indicate. It just shows that you're not fully aware of your surroundings.

He also told me that I should only be going about 30km in a residential area/housing estate.

Is he right about those things.

Alanstrainor

Mini roundabouts should be treated as a normal roundabout, so you should indicate off them.

Indicating around parked cars would also be correct. Whether or not there is someone behind you wouldn't change that. There could be people you haven't seen, motorcycles, bicycles etc.

As for the speed in a residential area, it very much depends on the situation and road at hand. I wouldn't rely on a concrete rule for speed in a residential area, but if the road is tight(perhaps there cars parked on either side of the road) and there are people/children around then a reduced speed would make sense.

I hope that helps things!

TheChizler

ISM (if I remember correctly) had a video where they said it wasn't necessary when going straight on a mini roundabout. Probably best to do though with the potential of getting a cranky tester on the day.

Indicating around parked cars wasn't always necessary always necessary either, as long as you're not changing your road positioning significantly and have plenty of space. Defo always if you have to move out or drive across the line. Remember indicating is there to warn people of something they may not be expecting you to do.

ProudDUB

dillo2k10 wrote: »

He also told me to indicate around parked cars when there was no one behind me. I thought if there was no one to indicate to then you don't indicate.

It is not just about who is behind you. Cars in front of you going in the opposite directions, cars coming out of side roads & car parks, cyclists and pedestrians would often benefit from you signaling your intentions to veer away from your current direction to go around something, be it a parked car, a big pot hole, obstruction in the road etc etc.

dillo2k10

Thanks, but sometimes on the mini roundabout I just cant physically (safely) put the indicator on when turning right on a mini roundabout. If I do, I dont have full control of the steering wheel.

CiniO

dillo2k10 wrote: »

Thanks, but sometimes on the mini roundabout I just cant physically (safely) put the indicator on when turning right on a mini roundabout. If I do, I dont have full control of the steering wheel.

What do you exactly mean by that?

**Timbuk2**

dillo2k10 wrote: »

Thanks, but sometimes on the mini roundabout I just cant physically (safely) put the indicator on when turning right on a mini roundabout. If I do, I dont have full control of the steering wheel.

You will get used to it with practice, it doesn't take long to put the indicator on! Maybe if you go a little slower you'll find the whole "Steer right, indicate left, steer left" thing a little less rushed!

CiniO

dillo2k10 wrote: »

He also told me to indicate around parked cars when there was no one behind me. I thought if there was no one to indicate to then you don't indicate.

The bold text is probably one of the most ridiculous thing I heard in relation to driving.
You indicate your intentions, to pull over, move off, change lane, overtake, alter course, etc, no matter if there is anyone to see you indicating or not.

ProudDUB

dillo2k10 wrote: »

Thanks, but sometimes on the mini roundabout I just cant physically (safely) put the indicator on when turning right on a mini roundabout. If I do, I dont have full control of the steering wheel.

Most indicator switches are located in a spot where you do not need to remove your hand completely from the steering wheel to reach it. In most cars that I have ever driven, I just have to move the little finger and ring finger of my left hand very slightly to flip the indicator on/off. The bulk of my hand stays on the steering wheel as I drive. It however does take practice to perfect this, and to know instinctively where the switch is without having to look down to find it, or remove your hand from the wheel to feel around for it. Practice will make perfect.

I have small hands. In bigger cars, with bigger steering wheels, sometimes I have to move more of my hand to reach it, but in general, most of my hand stays on the steering wheel, and I remain in control of the car. Try tilting the steering wheel up or down to see if it makes the indicator switch easier to reach. Also try adjusting the position of your hands as you drive. I find the 1/4 to 2 position easier to drive in than the classic 10 to 2 one. It makes the indicator easier to reach too.

dillo2k10

Thanks, Im sure Ill get the hang of it.

I originally thought this way because of this video from ISM.

Watch from 5:30

hoff1

Can you apply for two tests at the same time? just incase i fail the first one

dillo2k10

hoff1 wrote: »

Can you apply for two tests at the same time? just incase i fail the first one

I don't think so, but that's a very negative way of looking at things, if you convince yourself that your going to fail then you will fail.

You have to keep positive. Just think "ah sure, it'll be grand"

dillo2k10

CiniO wrote: »

What do you exactly mean by that?

There is one particular roundabout near where I live that even if I turn around it at 10-15km and try to indicate off it, then I will have trouble steering.

Chris_Heilong

dillo2k10 wrote: »

There is one particular roundabout near where I live that even if I turn around it at 10-15km and try to indicate off it, then I will have trouble steering.

Yes I know where your coming from, many roundabouts are so small where I live you would have almost no time to indicate off, there is many conflicting views on what is correct procedure with regards indicating, I dont indicate when passing parked cars unless there is someone following me it could be misunderstood that I want to turn right, I didnt get marked down during the test for this as well, like others are saying best learn all the procedures just so you can pass the test then you can drive the way you want afterwards.

Faith+1

Alanstrainor wrote: »

Mini roundabouts should be treated as a normal roundabout, so you should indicate off them.

That's news to me Alan?? All my instructors told me I only had to indicate on approach and not when exiting?? Passed Motorcycle, Car and Truck first time without said marks on my sheet??

Guess you live and you learn dad :pac:

Faith+1

dillo2k10 wrote: »

Thanks, but sometimes on the mini roundabout I just cant physically (safely) put the indicator on when turning right on a mini roundabout. If I do, I dont have full control of the steering wheel.

Completely agree, My driving instructor (Car) told me I didn't have to indicate when exiting and even corrected me when I did. Never got marked in the test when I didn't indicate on exiting.... But as I said to Alan that's news to me that you have to??

I'd be more worried that I'd get marked for progress/Vehicle Controls/position when trying to do this on test day. Personally I'd ask another ADI what their procedure is.

Alanstrainor

Treating mini roundabouts the same as normal sized ones is the way I always approach these roundabouts. I passed through two during my Cat. B and indicated as normal without fault.

I think people should note though, I am not an instructor, and I'm not a tester either. Everything I post here is merely my view on things, granted I've learned a lot myself and through this forum and personal experience, but I could be wrong.

Faith+1

Alanstrainor wrote: »

Everything I post here is merely my view on things, granted I've learned a lot myself and through this forum and personal experience, but I could be wrong.

Reminds me of Jack Black in High Fidelity "You could be and you are" :pac:

ps- Please don't ban me, We're all friends here! Lol

**Timbuk2**

I always treat mini-roundabouts as normal roundabouts also, I can't think of any reason why you wouldn't besides that there's less time and space to indicate left, but this generally isn't a problem.

I don't remember my driving instructor mentioning anything about mini-roundabouts, probably because there aren't any in Dundalk (just normal roundabouts!), but as far as I know, the law doesn't have separate rules for mini-roundabouts so the usual rules apply (open to correction here!).

The RSA Marking Guidelines also don't distinguish, so I think either may be acceptable for testing purposes.

ADIDriving

dillo2k10 wrote: »

There is one particular roundabout near where I live that even if I turn around it at 10-15km and try to indicate off it, then I will have trouble steering.

Drive at 5-10km then. You do not need to signal past most parked cars in housing estates. There are many situations when several of the option suggested above are acceptable but not necessarily best practice; eg. it is true that if nobody is around to see you indicate there is no need. but best practice is that you should indicate regardless. You instructor may be suggesting a (slower) speed of 30km in estates because you are driving to fast in a particular situation.

CiniO

ADIDriving wrote: »

There are many situations when several of the option suggested above are acceptable but not necessarily best practice; eg. it is true that if nobody is around to see you indicate there is no need. but best practice is that you should indicate regardless.

With all respect but that can't be true.
Where did you get such information?

Here's quotation from Road traffic regulations

Signals by Drivers

18. (1) A driver intending to slow down, stop, or alter course, shall either give a signal by using a direction indicator or stop lamp, as appropriate, or give the appropriate hand signal set out in Table A in the Second Schedule.


(2) A driver shall indicate the direction in which the vehicle is to be driven to a member of the Garda Síochána by giving either a signal by using a direction indicator or the appropriate hand signal set out in Table B in the Second Schedule.


(3) A driver shall give a signal in sufficient time before altering course and in such a manner as to be clearly visible and clearly understood by those for whom such signal is intended.


(4) A driver shall not give simultaneous contradictory signals.

Could you please point out, which piece of this legislation reliefs driver from obligation to indicate if no one is looking?

This part "A driver intending to slow down, stop, or alter course, shall either give a signal by using a direction indicator..." seems to be perfectly clear what driver has to do, no matter if there is anyone around or not.

moonage

CiniO wrote: »

You indicate your intentions, to pull over, move off, change lane, overtake, alter course, etc, no matter if there is anyone to see you indicating or not.

It would be pointless indicating if you knew for a fact that nobody would see you indicating.

Del2005

If the instructor is telling you to indicate and you are doing your test in the same area, I'd be indicating during my test. The instructor knows what's required to pass at the test centre.

fasttalkerchat

dillo2k10 wrote: »

Hi,

I just had a lesson and there was two things I thought my driving instructor was wrong about.

First he told me to indicate off a mini roundabout, which I thought was wrong, I thought you just indicated right if you were going right or left if you were going left. No indication if you're going straight on. I thought you just indicated off a normal sized roundabout.

He also told me to indicate around parked cars when there was no one behind me. I thought if there was no one to indicate to then you don't indicate. It just shows that you're not fully aware of your surroundings.

He also told me that I should only be going about 30km in a residential area/housing estate.

Is he right about those things.

1. Not always necessary but no problem to do it.
2. Not necessary sometimes (obviously) but there may be cyclists that you can't see. Better to play it safe.
3. 30km/h would be right for a housing estate.

ADIDriving

@ CiniO: It is the application of common sense. Applying logic to point 18.3 of your quote. If you take 18.1 literally, then you would signal for every bend, slight adjustment of road position and three times on a turnabout. This is unecessary. The rules of the road are over simplified. The gardai and examiners allow for common sense.
That said, this is the part that should be focused on "But best practice is that you should indicate regardless", as had I have made a longer post I would have continued to say that you should assume that there is always someone around that you may not see. (It would seem I should have continued to emphasise.)
I personally will still indicate when nobody is around. Even at three or four in the morning, even in an empty carpark, even coming out of my driveway in a cul-de-sac with ten houses, no more then fourty metres to my right. As an example, it is ridiculous for me to signal left coming out of my drive and I would wonder if anyone else including yourself would bother.

Guy:Incognito

People put far too much faith in the word of driving instructers. Not sure if theres been any progress in the system in the last year or two but anyone can be a driving instructor, ether by getting a job with a company or just setting up themselves. I've seen plenty driving around consantly showing very bad driving practices (single occupant in a driving school car, so assumign they are an instructer)

ADIDriving wrote: »

then you would signal for every bend,.

A bend is not altering course though. It's following the road.

MascotDec85

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

People put far too much faith in the word of driving instructers. Not sure if theres been any progress in the system in the last year or two but anyone can be a driving instructor, ether by getting a job with a company or just setting up themselves. I've seen plenty driving around consantly showing very bad driving practices (single occupant in a driving school car, so assumign they are an instructer)

If people cannot put faith in their driving instructor the whole process and system is completely and utterly flawed.

It used to be the case that anyone could set up as an instructor. I don't know whether you are aware or not but to become an instructor you now need to take and pass 3 exams with the RSA. An extended theory test, an advanced driving test and a teaching ability test. We also have to sit a "check test" approximately every 2 years. Failing this can result in the ADI losing their permit and right to instruct.

Like in any job there will always be people who aren't great but there are loads of talented and dedicated instructors out there.

fasttalkerchat

MascotDec85 wrote: »

If people cannot put faith in their driving instructor the whole process and system is completely and utterly flawed.

It used to be the case that anyone could set up as an instructor. I don't know whether you are aware or not but to become an instructor you now need to take and pass 3 exams with the RSA. An extended theory test, an advanced driving test and a teaching ability test. We also have to sit a "check test" approximately every 2 years. Failing this can result in the ADI losing their permit and right to instruct.

Like in any job there will always be people who aren't great but there are loads of talented and dedicated instructors out there.

If only that was the case. Unfortunately with thinks like this mob:
http://www.casttv.com/video/te06mu/red-driving-school-on-itv-tonight-programme-video
and some instructors being fully qualified in less than 6 months you can't tell who can be trusted. Add to that chancers who are independant i.e. unapproved.

Ludo

When does a mini roundabout become a full roundabout?

I always treat them the same and indicate appropriately just to be sure, to be sure.

Jesus Shaves

CiniO wrote: »

The bold text is probably one of the most ridiculous thing I heard in relation to driving.
You indicate your intentions, to pull over, move off, change lane, overtake, alter course, etc, no matter if there is anyone to see you indicating or not.

Did you not post up a series of pictures a while back asking who had the right of way at juntions and right turns when it was blatantly obvious?

MascotDec85

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

If only that was the case. Unfortunately with thinks like this mob:
http://www.casttv.com/video/te06mu/red-driving-school-on-itv-tonight-programme-video
and some instructors being fully qualified in less than 6 months you can't tell who can be trusted. Add to that chancers who are independant i.e. unapproved.

You've given a link about Red Driving School, a UK based school who have well documented problems and other issues, I don't think it's particularly relevant tbh.

"...chancers who are independant.ie unapproved"? I'm sorry but I've got no idea what that means

fasttalkerchat

Ludo wrote: »

When does a mini roundabout become a full roundabout?

I always treat them the same and indicate appropriately just to be sure, to be sure.

When it is more than just paint.

The first time I saw 2 mini roundabouts together I did an S shaped manouvre around them. No idea what i was thinking!!

ADIDriving

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

People put far too much faith in the word of driving instructers. Not sure if theres been any progress in the system in the last year or two but anyone can be a driving instructor, ether by getting a job with a company or just setting up themselves. I've seen plenty driving around consantly showing very bad driving practices (single occupant in a driving school car, so assumign they are an instructer)

Somewhat of an exageration. But it will happen. Driving instructors are human. Some are good and dilligent others less so. Most fire fighters are great, some are arsonists. Most nurses are great, some murder their patients. Believe it or not some pollitians are great, others just line their pockets. Some people where you work are great, others will dodge as much work as possible. For the most part we should work on the basis that the professional knows what they are doing and is right.

A bend is not altering course though. It's following the road.

You are reinforcing my point here. Literally, if you do not alter your course on a bend you drive off the road. But the common sense that you have logicly applied, interprets it correctly as following the road.

CiniO

darokane wrote: »

Did you not post up a series of pictures a while back asking who had the right of way at juntions and right turns when it was blatantly obvious?

Yes - it was me.
No - I wasn't asking about right of way, but about indicator use.
No - I wasn't blatantly obvious or anywhere near of that.
And even what ADIDriving is saying here, confirms in not even close to be obvious, as he just said that "altering course" is anytime you turn.

Stark

The one good instructor I had said I didn't need to use full roundabout indication on a mini-roundabout. Instead, indicate left when going left, no indication when straight on, indicate right when turning right. Had plenty of them on my test and didn't pick up any faults for not indicating.

The indicating round parked cars thing bugs the hell out of me when you're following behind someone. It's fairly obvious that someone is going to go around the car and not drive straight into the back of it but by indicating around every little thing, you never know when they're actually going to turn right or not. The only time I would indicate around them was if it was a narrow road and I had to wait behind the parked cars for a gap before pulling out.

Guy:Incognito

ADIDriving wrote: »

You are reinforcing my point here. Literally, if you do not alter your course on a bend you drive off the road. But the common sense that you have logicly applied, interprets it correctly as following the road.

No road is dead straight, so by that reconing your constantly in a state of altrering your course.

By altering your course, without checking, I would assume they mean a proper turn at a junction.

MascotDec85 wrote: »

If people cannot put faith in their driving instructor the whole process and system is completely and utterly flawed.

It used to be the case that anyone could set up as an instructor. I don't know whether you are aware or not but to become an instructor you now need to take and pass 3 exams with the RSA. An extended theory test, an advanced driving test and a teaching ability test. We also have to sit a "check test" approximately every 2 years. Failing this can result in the ADI losing their permit and right to instruct.

Like in any job there will always be people who aren't great but there are loads of talented and dedicated instructors out there.

Yes , the system is flawed.A driving instructor, for the most part is just someone with a full licence that decided to start teching others to drive. Any changes to that are quite recent and I'm not sure if it's even compulsory.

fasttalkerchat

MascotDec85 wrote: »

You've given a link about Red Driving School, a UK based school who have well documented problems and other issues, I don't think it's particularly relevant tbh.

"...chancers who are independant.ie unapproved"? I'm sorry but I've got no idea what that means

RED driving school is an example of a poor driving school.
The problem of unqualified people offering lessons is another example of why not all instructors can be trusted.
It is illegal to receive payment for lessons if you are not a registered Approved Driving Instructor (ADI) with the Road Safety Authority (RSA).

ADIDriving

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

No road is dead straight, so by that reconing your constantly in a state of altrering your course.
Yes, that is generally the case.
By altering your course, without checking, I would assume they mean a proper turn at a junction.
Yes, that is the logicaly assumption to a non-literal statement. This argeument is pointless and symantic. Lets not bother with this bit anymore.

Yes , the system is flawed.A driving instructor, for the most part is just someone with a full licence that decided to start teching others to drive. Any changes to that are quite recent and I'm not sure if it's even compulsory.

Also @ fasttalkerchat. It is a hefty fine and / or prison to anyone recieving payment for driving lesson in Ireland. The three part test, registration, Garda check, Tax check, minimum time holding a licence before the qualification are all compulsory. Yes, it is recent, but it is the present situation. A debate about the past is best left in the past. One cannot give an EDT lesson without this qualification, stamp, registration and access to the relevant section on the RSA site.
Anyone who gives a driving lesson with this qualification is not a driving instructor, they are a criminal and on that basis should not be trusted.

Stark

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Yes , the system is flawed.A driving instructor, for the most part is just someone with a full licence that decided to start teching others to drive. Any changes to that are quite recent and I'm not sure if it's even compulsory.

A lot of driving instructors gained automatic accreditation which undermines the whole system from my point of view. (I know some very dodgy instructors who benefited from being automatically accredited).

fasttalkerchat

ADIDriving wrote: »

Also @ fasttalkerchat. It is a hefty fine and / or prison to anyone recieving payment for driving lesson in Ireland. The three part test, registration, Garda check, Tax check, minimum time holding a licence before the qualification are all compulsory. Yes, it is recent, but it is the present situation. A debate about the past is best left in the past. One cannot give an EDT lesson without this qualification, stamp, registration and access to the relevant section on the RSA site.
Anyone who gives a driving lesson with this qualification is not a driving instructor, they are a criminal and on that basis should not be trusted.

I agree with what you are saying however there is anecdotal evidence that this does go on.
I had a great driving instructor with years of experience but I know of people had very different experiences.

ADIDriving

Stark wrote: »

A lot of driving instructors gained automatic accreditation which undermines the whole system from my point of view. (I know some very dodgy instructors who benefited from being automatically accredited).

Very few driving instructors gained automatic accreditation. As a driving instructor, I don't personally know anyone who got an automatic accredition. The qualifiacation I voluntarily got before the RSA introduced ADIs was a DIR qualification. On my RSA tests I drove past their office (which is well out of the way). No part of the DIR qualifaction transfered over even though the drive was so obviously based on the DIR drive. I work with an instructor who had a long list of qualification, non of which were acceptable.
However there is a small number of qualifications that allow transfer through parts of the RSA tests. An example, being if a UK driving instructor moves to Ireland they do not need get assessed for their instructional abilty. Not until the check test that all driving instructor have to sit.

ADIDriving

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

I agree with what you are saying however there is anecdotal evidence that this does go on.
I had a great driving instructor with years of experience but I know of people had very different experiences.

There is more then anecdotal evidence of planes crashing, ships sinking, doctors murdering, people getting food poisining in take away, electrical equipment malfunctioning and starting fires........
Do you trust plane, boats, doctors, takeaway, your computor.....?

MascotDec85

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Yes , the system is flawed.A driving instructor, for the most part is just someone with a full licence that decided to start teching others to drive. Any changes to that are quite recent and I'm not sure if it's even compulsory.

A person who teaches people to drive and earns a living from it MUST have taken the exmas as I mentioned or as ADIDriving stated be a qualified ADI in the UK (same 3 tests undertaken) and transfer to an Irish ADI Permit. The current law has been in force for about 3 years.

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

RED driving school is an example of a poor driving school.
The problem of unqualified people offering lessons is another example of why not all instructors can be trusted.
It is illegal to receive payment for lessons if you are not a registered Approved Driving Instructor (ADI) with the Road Safety Authority (RSA).

I know the rules, I'm an ADI.

A pupil should satisfy themselves that the instructor they intend to take lessons with is a qualified ADI or cADI. I know there are poor instructors out there. There's also poor brickies, engineers, nurses etc etc.

Incidentally, what is the independant.ie approval you mentioned earlier in the thread?

MajorMax

CiniO wrote: »

The bold text is probably one of the most ridiculous thing I heard in relation to driving.
You indicate your intentions, to pull over, move off, change lane, overtake, alter course, etc, no matter if there is anyone to see you indicating or not.

Unless of course if you're driving a BMW, which means you're too special to indicate......ever!

fasttalkerchat

MascotDec85 wrote: »

What is the independant.ie approval you mentioned earlier in the thread?

That was a typo.
Should read ""...who are "independant" i.e. unapproved.

DaveyDriving

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

MascotDec85 wrote: »

If people cannot put faith in their driving instructor the whole process and system is completely and utterly flawed.

It used to be the case that anyone could set up as an instructor. I don't know whether you are aware or not but to become an instructor you now need to take and pass 3 exams with the RSA. An extended theory test, an advanced driving test and a teaching ability test. We also have to sit a "check test" approximately every 2 years. Failing this can result in the ADI losing their permit and right to instruct.

Like in any job there will always be people who aren't great but there are loads of talented and dedicated instructors out there.

If only that was the case. Unfortunately with thinks like this mob:
http://www.casttv.com/video/te06mu/red-driving-school-on-itv-tonight-programme-video
and some instructors being fully qualified in less than 6 months you can't tell who can be trusted. Add to that chancers who are independant i.e. unapproved.

Not sure what you mean by "if only that was the case" ? In Ireland it is the law that driving instructors must be approved by the RSA under the scheme outlined above by mascotdec85. The example you give is from another jurisdiction and while it could well. Happen in Ireland also it is ridiculous to tar every driving instructor with the same brush. Independent driving instructors are generally those who operate as one person operations rather than belonging to one of the bigger schools but they are still subject to the same qualification and audit process. The way to tell if someone is good or not is to ask your friends who they went with and if they were good. Instructors thrive or fail by their reputation and word of mouth.if you come across someone who is giving lessons and is not RSA approved then you should get as much detail as possible and report them to the RSA.

MascotDec85

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

That was a typo.
Should read ""...who are "independant" i.e. unapproved.

Approval has absolutely nothing to do with independence.

I own and operate my own independent driving school and I'm approved by the RSA as an ADI (Approved Driving Instructor)

MascotDec85

DaveyDriving wrote: »

Not sure what you mean by "if only that was the case" ? In Ireland it is the law that driving instructors must be approved by the RSA under the scheme outlined above by mascotdec85. The example you give is from another jurisdiction and while it could well. Happen in Ireland also it is ridiculous to tar every driving instructor with the same brush. Independent driving instructors are generally those who operate as one person operations rather than belonging to one of the bigger schools but they are still subject to the same qualification and audit process. The way to tell if someone is good or not is to ask your friends who they went with and if they were good. Instructors thrive or fail by their reputation and word of mouth.if you come across someone who is giving lessons and is not RSA approved then you should get as much detail as possible and report them to the RSA.

And The Gardai

DriversEd

Weel Faith+1, you got lucky. all roundabouts are to be treated the same regardless of size. if you haven't time to indicate, you're going too fast!!
although i'm an instructor, i mainly earn my living driving an artic, and the biggest problem after people not observing whats going on around them, is not indicating!!!
is it a bloody secret???!!!!!

MascotDec85

DriversEd wrote: »

Weel Faith+1, you got lucky. all roundabouts are to be treated the same regardless of size. if you haven't time to indicate, you're going too fast!!
although i'm an instructor, i mainly earn my living driving an artic, and the biggest problem after people not observing whats going on around them, is not indicating!!!
is it a bloody secret???!!!!!

That's a phrase I always use

It's not a secret, you are giving people around you an indication of what you're about to do

revz

Thought this might be an alright thread to ask in, (can't find an FAQ one or the likes, maybe my eyes are deceiving me though), as I'm hearing different things from different people.
In the test, when coming up to a stop sign, do you need to lift up your handbrake when you've come to a complete stop?
Or is coming to a complete halt with just the clutch+brake sufficient?