Mayor Long on Newstalk - Going Forward

irishproduce

Not sure if any of you are listening to this.
Mayor Long on the radio with George Hook - Newstalk talking about Collins family.

Anyway, I am conscious of the amount of times he says "Going forward" even when there is no reason to use that phrase.

Are they all getting training on media or something and being told to use "Going forward" in difficult interviews but Long seems to misunderstand how to use it properly?

Anyway, just an observation, sounds like he is using it in all the wrong contexts. Makes him sound foolish

europa11

I'm not (mercifully) listening! The embarassment would be too much.

If Jim Long sounds foolish there's a very good reason for that.

And every time he opens his mouth he proves time and time again why he is considered an idiot by the vast majority of citizens.

flutered

but not enough to stop him getting relected.

Kess73

flutered wrote: »

but not enough to stop him getting relected.

If you are talking about how he got voted in during the last local elections, then I suggest doing a search online to see that he only got something like 280 votes overall and he had to go to the sixth or seventh count to get in. Basically he got in just to make up the numbers.

Just goes to show that in Irish politics making up the numbers comes before anything else. A system of quantity over quality I guess.

irishproduce

Kess73 wrote: »

If you are talking about how he got voted in during the last local elections, then I suggest doing a search online to see that he only got something like 280 votes overall and he had to go to the sixth or seventh count to get in. Basically he got in just to make up the numbers.

Just goes to show that in Irish politics making up the numbers comes before anything else. A system of quantity over quality I guess.

Are you serious Kess?
That's mad. 280! What is the salary for getting 280 people to say you are A OK?

flutered

any chance that the new limerick council will see some of the dead wood been pruned, ah i forgot phil the flute(r) is in charge of this.

europa11

irishproduce wrote: »

Are you serious Kess?
That's mad. 280! What is the salary for getting 280 people to say you are A OK?

afaik, the mayoral salary is somewhere in the region of €140,000 + expenses, car and free drink, etc. for the year.

Little wonder it's the only job in Limerick that any of the deadwood Councillors really give a flying f*ck about.

grenache

Long is an embarrassment to the City, and has been for some time.

Remember he was the man who came out with the classic "I'd rather be a racist than a traitor" line a few years back.


http://www.politics.ie/forum/limerick/163979-limerick-laughing-stock-again-after-mayor-election.html

allimac

Kess73 wrote: »

If you are talking about how he got voted in during the last local elections, then I suggest doing a search online to see that he only got something like 280 votes overall and he had to go to the sixth or seventh count to get in. Basically he got in just to make up the numbers.

Just goes to show that in Irish politics making up the numbers comes before anything else. A system of quantity over quality I guess.

Legally and lawfully elected to represent his Ward and legally and lawfully elected as mayor to represent Limerick City.And I guess that's why we all get a chance to vote,I'm sure that you got that chance the same as anyone else.

washman3

allimac wrote: »

Legally and lawfully elected to represent his Ward and legally and lawfully elected as mayor to represent Limerick City.And I guess that's why we all get a chance to vote,I'm sure that you got that chance the same as anyone else.

Kess73

allimac wrote: »

Legally and lawfully elected to represent his Ward and legally and lawfully elected as mayor to represent Limerick City.And I guess that's why we all get a chance to vote,I'm sure that you got that chance the same as anyone else.

Did I say there was anything illegal or unlawful in how the man was elected?

No I did not.


I simply pointed out that in Irish politics there seems to be a system in place where candidates who did not get enough votes to get in on the first, second or even third counts can still get in as the Irish systems just keeps going round after round of counts just to ensure the numbers needed for each council get made up.

Jim Long is a perfect example of this system in that he is a politician who did not have enough votes to get in on the first count, and he did not even have enough votes when others got carried in the second round, third round, fourth round etc etc.

He is not the only politician in this country who got his spot despite not having enough people wanting him in first time round, and he will not be the last politician to get in this way for as long as such a backward little voting system is in place for local elections, but I did not suggest he did anything that was illegal or unlawful so since you were so quick to bring the legal and lawful aspects into it, please be just as quick to point out where I suggested the man did something wrong in how he was elected.

allimac

Kess73 wrote: »

Did I say there was anything illegal or unlawful in how the man was elected?

No I did not.


I simply pointed out that in Irish politics there seems to be a system in place where candidates who did not get enough votes to get in on the first, second or even third counts can still get in as the Irish systems just keeps going round after round of counts just to ensure the numbers needed for each council get made up.

Jim Long is a perfect example of this system in that he is a politician who did not have enough votes to get in on the first count, and he did not even have enough votes when others got carried in the second round, third round, fourth round etc etc.

He is not the only politician in this country who got his spot despite not having enough people wanting him in first time round, and he will not be the last politician to get in this way for as long as such a backward little voting system is in place for local elections, but I did not suggest he did anything that was illegal or unlawful so since you were so quick to bring the legal and lawful aspects into it, please be just as quick to point out where I suggested the man did something wrong in how he was elected.

Just pointing out that you had the chance to vote as did everyone else in Limerick,bit late to be whinging about your choice now.

grenache

allimac wrote: »

Just pointing out that you had the chance to vote as did everyone else in Limerick,bit late to be whinging about your choice now.

But he's not whinging about his choice. Kess is merely pointing out the flawed system that allows Jim Long to be elected to the position of Mayor.

Kess73

allimac wrote: »

Just pointing out that you had the chance to vote as did everyone else in Limerick,bit late to be whinging about your choice now.

I did vote and I did not vote for him.

Anyway as pretty everyone else here seemed to be able to figure out, I was passing comment on the system that is in place that allows people who did not meet the required quota to get in, rather than just on the man who got in thanks to a flawed system.

As the thread was about Long and as he did get in despite not technically coming close to the required amount of votes, he was a perfect example of how bad the system is.

You don't have to be the best person for the role with this system in place, you don't even have to meet the supposed minimum amount of votes. You just have to be there to scrape in to make up the numbers.

Any political system that has a policy of just making up the numbers over a policy of trying to get the best people and the people most wanted by the voting public is a very flawed system. And it is a system whose flaws are reflected by the "quality" on show in the council chambers.

allimac

Kess73 wrote: »

I did vote and I did not vote for him.

Anyway as pretty everyone else here seemed to be able to figure out, I was passing comment on the system that is in place that allows people who did not meet the required quota to get in, rather than just on the man who got in thanks to a flawed system.

As the thread was about Long and as he did get in despite not technically coming close to the required amount of votes, he was a perfect example of how bad the system is.

You don't have to be the best person for the role with this system in place, you don't even have to meet the supposed minimum amount of votes. You just have to be there to scrape in to make up the numbers.

Any political system that has a policy of just making up the numbers over a policy of trying to get the best people and the people most wanted by the voting public is a very flawed system. And it is a system whose flaws are reflected by the "quality" on show in the council chambers.

The "system"(proportional representation) may be flawed but it's worked for hundreds of years in Limerick so far and is widely cited as one of the best in the world.

vkid

allimac wrote: »

The "system"(proportional representation) may be flawed but it's worked for hundreds of years in Limerick so far and is widely cited as one of the best in the world.

If local government was working right..we wouldnt be in half the crap this city is in as it stands. Mr Long or No Mr Long, the city is a shambles and quite a lot of that rests solely on local government.

Icky Thump

allimac wrote: »

The "system"(proportional representation) may be flawed but it's worked for hundreds of years in Limerick so far and is widely cited as one of the best in the world.

are you kidding??????

the system doesnt even work in ireland let alone limerick

the same system that has time and time again elected manure nto office

the same system that has given you us corrupt taoiseachs all the way back to the 70's............................ almost 40 years of corruption at the head of state is hardly cited as the best in the world and very much is not a working system

Kess73

allimac wrote: »

The "system"(proportional representation) may be flawed but it's worked for hundreds of years in Limerick so far and is widely cited as one of the best in the world.

The Irish political system is cited as being one of the best in the World?

By whom? Bertie Ahern or some similar honest Irishman?

The Irish political system is a backwater corrupt system that has consistently been a system that just makes up the numbers and encourages cronyism,corruption, nepotism whilst lacking in any real level of standards or consequences for corrupt/criminal actions.

Best in the world indeed. Just another tag put on something in this country to try and paint it as world class without actually having to be world class.


Anyway it is not true proportional representation if people who don't meet the required quota that the same system put in place can get in anyway.

Comhrá

The Irish political system is cited as being one of the best in the World?

The system may well be the best in the world but it's a case of how it is exploited and the quality of the candidates that gives us the public representatives we finish up with, that counts for the end result, i.e. rubbish in, rubbish out.

The best recipe in the world can only be as good as the quality of the ingredients used.

J.

fl4pj4ck

allimac wrote: »

[...]but it's worked for hundreds of years in Limerick so far and is widely cited as one of the best in the world.

*cough* people thought the same about slavery *cough*

allimac

tippman1 wrote: »

The system may well be the best in the world but it's a case of how it is exploited and the quality of the candidates that gives us the public representatives we finish up with, that counts for the end result, i.e. rubbish in, rubbish out.

The best recipe in the world can only be as good as the quality of the ingredients used.

J.

True, but some posters on here seem to think that the system is to blame for the crap that it throws up.

Kess73

allimac wrote: »

True, but some posters on here seem to think that the system is to blame for the crap that it throws up.

The way the System is implemented becomes the system, and as such the system is flawed and responsible for the crap, as you call them, that gets thrown up. If a system allows for such crap, then the system in place is to blame until that system is either replaced or tweaked.


The system in place is not really followed through on to the letter of the definition of such a system, so what is in place in Ireland is a poor imitation of a system based on public representatives. The Irish variation of that system allows for people to get elected not by the pre set minimum quota of votes (in local elections), not just on having the most public votes, but on a system that just keeps going until the amount of needed candidates is reached regardless if the latter stages of selection only has candidates that failed on a massive scale to reach the minimum quota or who failed to have any kind of substantial number of people vote for them.

All over the country there are politicians who are in their job because they were lucky enough to be one of the ones that got to make up the numbers. Not because a decent number of people wanted them in, not because they were the best candidates for the role, and not because they could make the minimum quota of votes.

The Irish system is set up in a way that really allows it to scrape the bottom of the barrel. Quantity over quality over and over and over. Men and Women who don't have a clue how to be genuinely effective in important roles, and people wonder why the country is in a mess at local and national level.

allimac

Kess73 wrote: »

The way the System is implemented becomes the system, and as such the system is flawed and responsible for the crap, as you call them, that gets thrown up. If a system allows for such crap, then the system in place is to blame until that system is either replaced or tweaked.


The system in place is not really followed through on to the letter of the definition of such a system, so what is in place in Ireland is a poor imitation of a system based on public representatives. The Irish variation of that system allows for people to get elected not by the pre set minimum quota of votes (in local elections), not just on having the most public votes, but on a system that just keeps going until the amount of needed candidates is reached regardless if the latter stages of selection only has candidates that failed on a massive scale to reach the minimum quota or who failed to have any kind of substantial number of people vote for them.

All over the country there are politicians who are in their job because they were lucky enough to be one of the ones that got to make up the numbers. Not because a decent number of people wanted them in, not because they were the best candidates for the role, and not because they could make the minimum quota of votes.

The Irish system is set up in a way that really allows it to scrape the bottom of the barrel. Quantity over quality over and over and over. Men and Women who don't have a clue how to be genuinely effective in important roles, and people wonder why the country is in a mess at local and national level.

Bitch all you want about the system, but the fact remains that the person with the most votes gets elected every time, and in order to be elected to the council Jim Long had more votes than the next guy.Doesn't matter that he had only 1 vote more than your guy, he still gets elected.

billy the squid

he barely scraped in at the local elections. Sean Griffin gave him a run for his money, but fell behind in subsequent counts

AnimalCracker

Jim Long... What an embarrassment to the city

Kess73

allimac wrote: »

Bitch all you want about the system, but the fact remains that the person with the most votes gets elected every time, and in order to be elected to the council Jim Long had more votes than the next guy.Doesn't matter that he had only 1 vote more than your guy, he still gets elected.

He got in on vote transfers and it took until the sixth or seventh round. So it was not a case of the guy with the most votes getting in if it took round after round after round just to squeeze someone through to make up the numbers.

All that the city got was names to fill in spaces, not quality candidates who got in by getting the required amount of votes. Pretty much defeats the point of having a quota system if people who were shown to not be wanted by the majority of voters can just scrape in not because they were deemed to be good enough but just because spaces needed a body, any body, to fill them.

Guess it is the system that gives Ireland the same second rate governments and low quality local councils time after time after time.

I don't rate Jimmy Long as a politician, and I certainly don't regard him as a man with any sort of qualification to make important decisions at city level, but if he did not get in just to make up the numbers then I am sure that someone else would have gotten in just to fill the space and not because they were the best person for the role. That in a nutshell is what is wrong with the Irish system, the people with the right qualifications for local council roles don't get in, and they will never be sought for the roles either. Parish pump politics, ignorant and blind, will continue to get in sub standard politicians all over Ireland for as long as Mickey mouse variations of a voting system are in place, coupled with the idiotic mindset of people who fall for parish pump sppofing by various politicians.

Kess73

billy the squid wrote: »

he barely scraped in at the local elections. Sean Griffin gave him a run for his money, but fell behind in subsequent counts

A Squid sighting :eek::eek::eek::D

osarusan

Kess,

in this case, surely your beef is with the number of positions which must be filled come election time, rather than proportional representation itself?

Same election method for fewer council seats would produce better results?

Brian Lighthouse

There is a blog about electoral systems here.
http://electoralsystemsworldwide.blogspot.com/
It was written in a hurry; however it might assist in understanding electoral systems.
I think we should keep STV PR for our local elections, but we need to consider changing our system for the national elections.

allimac

Kess73 wrote: »

He got in on vote transfers and it took until the sixth or seventh round. So it was not a case of the guy with the most votes getting in if it took round after round after round just to squeeze someone through to make up the numbers.

All that the city got was names to fill in spaces, not quality candidates who got in by getting the required amount of votes. Pretty much defeats the point of having a quota system if people who were shown to not be wanted by the majority of voters can just scrape in not because they were deemed to be good enough but just because spaces needed a body, any body, to fill them.

Guess it is the system that gives Ireland the same second rate governments and low quality local councils time after time after time.

I don't rate Jimmy Long as a politician, and I certainly don't regard him as a man with any sort of qualification to make important decisions at city level, but if he did not get in just to make up the numbers then I am sure that someone else would have gotten in just to fill the space and not because they were the best person for the role. That in a nutshell is what is wrong with the Irish system, the people with the right qualifications for local council roles don't get in, and they will never be sought for the roles either. Parish pump politics, ignorant and blind, will continue to get in sub standard politicians all over Ireland for as long as Mickey mouse variations of a voting system are in place, coupled with the idiotic mindset of people who fall for parish pump sppofing by various politicians.

I don't care what you think of the Mayor, he was elected by due process. The system is what it is and it is open to anyone qualifications or not to stand for election, including yourself. As a matter of fact you would be an ideal candidate, you have a talent for twisting facts around to suit your own argument no matter how pointless it is. You know everything that is wrong with the system and how to play it to your own ends. If the rest are just space fillers then you should make the best politician ever. I predict you to be elected by a landslide by the idiots who voted for the current batch.

Kess73

osarusan wrote: »

Kess,

in this case, surely your beef is with the number of positions which must be filled come election time, rather than proportional representation itself?

Same election method for fewer council seats would produce better results?

Well the idea of a system that says it has a minimum quota in place but that then goes and ignores that quota in order to let a number of candidates in that the general public obviously did not want, is a joke system imho.

The public does not vote for many individuals in numbers which means the majority of voters did not want those individuals in, yet thanks to a make up the numbers mentality the same individuals get in anyway.

Jim Long is not the only politician to get in thuis way, hell he is not even the only one in Limerick to get in this way, but seeing as he became Mayor (another position that is a joke thanks to the position being pre agreed well in advance between political parties and the public having no say at all in who becomes Mayor, meaning the position of Mayor is NOT one that the public can get who they want in it), he is a high profile example of quantity over quality and a perfect example of someone who got his position simply because a flawed system ignores it's own minimum quotas just to get anybody in to make up the numbers.

Jim Long got in because of that system, and he is entitled to be in because the system as it is allowed him to get that position, but it just means important positions, positions that have helped make the city a joke in retail terms, in commercial terms etc etc have consistently been filled by men and women put in not because they were the best person for the role, but simply because bodies were needed to make up the numbers.

Kess73

allimac wrote: »

I don't care what you think of the Mayor, he was elected by due process. The system is what it is and it is open to anyone qualifications or not to stand for election, including yourself. As a matter of fact you would be an ideal candidate, you have a talent for twisting facts around to suit your own argument no matter how pointless it is. You know everything that is wrong with the system and how to play it to your own ends. If the rest are just space fillers then you should make the best politician ever. I predict you to be elected by a landslide by the idiots who voted for the current batch.

Personal attack?

I have not tried to insult you on a personal level so why the need to do so with me? Can you not debate it with me without resorting to insults?

As for the Mayor. I know the man, right back to when he was earning a living by selling tyres, but I am not commenting on him on a personal basis, just as a politician, so don't be getting upset by thinking it is a personal attack on him which you seem to be given that you have already made comments like "Doesn't matter that he had only 1 vote more than your guy", whoever my guy is meant to be.


If you disagree with my posts in this thread, then rubbish my posts and/or debate them if you have an interest, but cut out your personal attacks especially as they seem to be only focused on me despite others in the thread making direct comments about the Mayor which you chose to ignore, in fact it looks as though you only have one target in the thread and are happy to ignore what anyone else says about your mayor.

allimac

Personal attack?

I have not tried to insult you on a personal level so why the need to do so with me? Can you not debate it with me without resorting to insults

You're very thin skinned indeed if you consider that a personal attack,seems to be that you're twisting the facts to suit your own agenda again.

Kess73

allimac wrote: »

Personal attack?

I have not tried to insult you on a personal level so why the need to do so with me? Can you not debate it with me without resorting to insults

You're very thin skinned indeed if you consider that a personal attack,seems to be that you're twisting the facts to suit your own agenda again.

fair enough, you don't want to debate anything and just want to try to troll or bait me. I am more than happy to debate with you, and/or agree to differ, but I won't waste time on someone who is baiting/flaming, who is trying to make thinly veiled insults and accusations of some agenda that I am meant to have.

But seeing as you are so smart and know what this so called agenda of mine is, and since you have come out and said that I have an agenda. You can spell out exactly what this agenda is, otherwise you are flaming/baiting me and have broken one of the rules in the charter for this forum.

And just to help you out, if you claim I have an anti Jim Long agenda and that you are just arguing against that, well you have ignored all the posts that have called Long an embarrassment and an idiot, so surely you cannot be pulling me up on an Anti Long agenda when you had no problem with any derogatory comments made elsewhere in the thread about the man.

allimac

Kess73 wrote: »

fair enough, you don't want to debate anything and just want to try to troll or bait me. I am more than happy to debate with you, and/or agree to differ, but I won't waste time on someone who is baiting/flaming, who is trying to make thinly veiled insults and accusations of some agenda that I am meant to have.

But seeing as you are so smart and know what this so called agenda of mine is, and since you have come out and said that I have an agenda. You can spell out exactly what this agenda is, otherwise you are flaming/baiting me and have broken one of the rules in the charter for this forum.

And just to help you out, if you claim I have an anti Jim Long agenda and that you are just arguing against that, well you have ignored all the posts that have called Long an embarrassment and an idiot, so surely you cannot be pulling me up on an Anti Long agenda when you had no problem with any derogatory comments made elsewhere in the thread about the man.

1.You don't debate,you try to twist everything around to suit your own viewpoint.(For instance,you say that the election of the Mayor is an example of quantity over quality and then whinge that he was elected with so few votes!!!).
2.Your agenda from the start of this thread was to put down our political system and everyone in it, going as far as to call the electorate idiots who elect spoofers.(You are included in the electorate yourself,so basically you are calling yourself an idiot).If that's baiting or flaming you then so be it.
3.You then try the bully tactic claiming that I have broken some charter rules, hinting at a ban.(You're the one belittling our political system,whom else would I address my replies to)
4.I put it to you that you are the one who doesn't want debate,you just want everyone to agree with your neat little version of events and by and large everyone on here does,maybe the size of your post count intimidates them.(Speaking of quantity over quality).

Kess73

allimac wrote: »

1.You don't debate,you try to twist everything around to suit your own viewpoint.(For instance,you say that the election of the Mayor is an example of quantity over quality and then whinge that he was elected with so few votes!!!).
2.Your agenda from the start of this thread was to put down our political system and everyone in it, going as far as to call the electorate idiots who elect spoofers.(You are included in the electorate yourself,so basically you are calling yourself an idiot).If that's baiting or flaming you then so be it.
3.You then try the bully tactic claiming that I have broken some charter rules, hinting at a ban.(You're the one belittling our political system,whom else would I address my replies to)
4.I put it to you that you are the one who doesn't want debate,you just want everyone to agree with your neat little version of events and by and large everyone on here does,maybe the size of your post count intimidates them.(Speaking of quantity over quality).

Yes I criticised the system in Ireland. I think it is a system riddled with flawes and corruption, and that it is a system that does not even follow through on it's own set up.

I do think it is a system that promotes quantity over quality and the current Mayor of Limerick is an example of that seeing as he failed by a massive distance to even get the minimum set quota to get voted in, and had to rely on scraping in after numerous rounds of surplus votes from other politicians being handed down despite not having the backing of the general public (something that was made clear by his 280 or so votes of his own).

The Irish political system at local and national level is a corrupt backward system that sees various people grease wheels to further their own agendas, and it is a system that sees the elction of men and women who are pretty much clueless when it comes to many of the things they end up having a major say in deciding.

The Mahon report just highlighted yet again the corruption at national level, and the current investigation into planning irregularities by Limerick city council (one of many local councils under investigation) and the utter failure of Limerick city council to even manage to reply to the investigation on time shows up the current lot at local level to have a number that would be incompetent at best, and corrupt at worst.

If you think the Irish system, local and national, is a good system, one that gets the best people in, one that does not get tweaked to make up numbers and what not, then so be it.

You will see that I have again replied to you without any veiled insults or accusations unlike yourself you cannot help but to throw in bully comments and a childish comment about intimidation.

vkid

allimac wrote: »

1.You don't debate,you try to twist everything around to suit your own viewpoint.(For instance,you say that the election of the Mayor is an example of quantity over quality and then whinge that he was elected with so few votes!!!).
2.Your agenda from the start of this thread was to put down our political system and everyone in it, going as far as to call the electorate idiots who elect spoofers.(You are included in the electorate yourself,so basically you are calling yourself an idiot).If that's baiting or flaming you then so be it.
3.You then try the bully tactic claiming that I have broken some charter rules, hinting at a ban.(You're the one belittling our political system,whom else would I address my replies to)
4.I put it to you that you are the one who doesn't want debate,you just want everyone to agree with your neat little version of events and by and large everyone on here does,maybe the size of your post count intimidates them.(Speaking of quantity over quality).

Sorry to interrupt, but if anyone sounds like they don't want real debate, its yourself. People are agreeing with Kess because most people, actually..you know, do agree with him/her. Local Government in Ireland, but specifically Limerick city is nothing short of a disgrace and how anyone could be blinkered enough to think that its working well is beyond me. Look around you...the city is an absolute shambles and Limerick City Council have to shoulder quite a bi of the blame for that

flutered

now folks i argued long and hard to get a person from boards to contest the said election, nobody offered themselves as a candidate, or was anybody put forward as a suggested candidate, limerick boards could have now now have the mayor as a regestered user, forget your handbagging get organised, get elected, get us boardies a voice on the corpo table, the dosh is not bad, the trips away are even better, WAKE up fast.