Omega 3 DHA/EPA/ALA

Tar.Aldarion

So I was looking into getting some omega 3 supplements and I was wondering over the benefits of ALA vs algae/fish oil sources as I will be looking for a vegetarian supplement.

Firstly it appears that DHA/EPA directly is a better source than ALA as it appears ALA is converted to DHA (1%) and EPA(4%). Is this accurate?

I also read:

The general consensus was that people may inefficiently metabolise the more common form of Omega-3 found in flaxseeds/nuts, ALA, into the essential EPA and DHA fats found in fish/algae.

However, I don't think this is as straightforward as it first appears. For a start, conversion rates differ between people. More importantly, it hasn't really been shown that in the (relatively large) meat-eating, non-fish eating population, that a lack of direct sources of fish oils is problematic.

In fact, there was at least one study that showed that vegans/vegetarians actually had more converted Omega-3s compared to the general population, and another recent study which suggested that conversion rates were higher in non-fish eaters, Conversion of dietary ALA to EPA and DHA may be increased in non-fish eaters

On the other hand, there is some evidence that fish oil supplements do seem to help certain individuals, but it doesn't seem clear to me whether this is an effect specific to these individuals or whether supplementation with ALA Omega-3 would produce the same benefits.

In a study of over 14,000 men and women, vegans with no intake of dietary EPA or DHA still had very high levels of plasma DHA and EPA, showing that conversion of ALA and omega-3 fatty acids is very efficient and much higher than sometimes reported in vegans. Male vegans had only slightly lower levels of DHA than female vegans, and only slightly lower levels than fish-eaters (195 compared to 240). EPA levels were higher in male vegans than in meat-eating and fish-eating males.

So I am wondering does anybody know more about this?


Secondly, if I do go the direct DHA/EPA route over say flaxseed or hemp, I was looking at this two algal oil supplements.

First:
EPA – Eicosapentaenoic - 10mg
DHA – Docosahexaenoic – 400mg
148 euro per annum


Second:
EPA – Eicosapentaenoic - 200mg
DHA – Docosahexaenoic – 400mg
260 euro per annum.

Now the first is much cheaper and it appears what you need most is DHA, but is this 10mg enough EPA or would the second be necessary? I don't really follow if I particularly need EPA in as large a proportion as DHA, which seems to be the one people claim is most beneficial.

Tar.Aldarion

Nobody know? :P

Frogdog

This looks like a topic for El D!

howtomake

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

Nobody know? :P

I'm curious myself, someone knowledgeable.. hurry up and answer:D

Tar.Aldarion

Where are our knowledgeable overlords when we need them


I should also point out that I found the second supplement with the 200 EPA for €171.63 a year.


So now it is:


First:
EPA – Eicosapentaenoic - 10mg
DHA – Docosahexaenoic – 400mg
148 euro per annum


Second:
EPA – Eicosapentaenoic - 200mg
DHA – Docosahexaenoic – 400mg
€171.63 euro per annum.


What wiki says about it:

The US National Institute of Health's MedlinePlus lists medical conditions for which EPA (alone or in concert with other ω-3 sources) is known or thought to be an effective treatment.[5] Most of these involve its ability to lower inflammation.
Among omega-3 fatty acids, it is thought that EPA in particular may possess some beneficial potential in mental conditions, such as schizophrenia.[6][7] Several studies report an additional reduction in scores on symptom scales used to assess the severity of symptoms, when additional EPA is taken.
Studies published around 2004 have suggested that EPA may decrease depression and, importantly, suicidal behavior. One such study,[8] took blood samples of 100 suicide attempt patients and compared the blood samples to those of controls and found that levels of eicosapentaenoic acid were significantly lower in the washed red blood cells of the suicide-attempt patients. A 2009 metastudy found that patients taking omega-3 supplements with a higher EPA:DHA ratio experienced less depressive symptoms. [9]
EPA has inhibitory effect on CYP2C9 and CYP2C19 hepatic enzymes. At high dose, it may also inhibit the activity of CYP2D6 and CYP3A4, important enzymes involved in drug metabolism.[10]
Research suggests that EPA improves the response of patients to chemotherapy, possibly by modulating the production of eicosanoid.[11]
In a study published in 2011, EPA was shown to be significantly more effective than placebo for treating hyperactivity and attention symptoms, both together and separately.[12]

However it is the DHA that I see discussed everywhere for health benefits.

cobalamin

For those that would rather be safe than sorry, there is Omega 3 and Vitamin D3 Vegan supplements by ESB Developments Ltd. http://www.health-beauty-pr.com/esb/

El_Dangeroso

Hi Tar,

Is there any specific reason you want to supplement? Just general health?

I'd go for the one with a ratio closest to 1-to-2 EPA to DHA that is most commonly found in fish.

Flaxseed oil can have it's role (just be super careful about keeping it in the fridge and never ever heating it), it's supposed to be excellent for treating bleeding gums.

Most importantly I'd emphasise that way more important than increasing omega 3 is minimising omega 6. Omega 6 is plentiful in oils that are liquid at room temperature barring fruit oils like olive and avocado.

howtomake

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

Flaxseed oil can have it's role (just be super careful about keeping it in the fridge and never ever heating it), it's supposed to be excellent for treating bleeding gums.

What about plain flaxseeds?

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

Most importantly I'd emphasise that way more important than increasing omega 3 is minimising omega 6.

Ok that's something to work on at least.

El_Dangeroso

howtomake wrote: »

What about plain flaxseeds?

Plain flaxseeds are better as the oil is protected in the shell if you grind them fresh, a coffee grinder works nicely for that.

Redisle

I'm using this stuff from myprotein at the moment. Got the orange flavour. 7.99 for 500ml and amounts per serving are pretty good:

Amount per 5ml serving:
EPA (Eicosapentaenoic acid): 825mg
DHA (Docosahexaenoic acid): 550mg

It isn't what I would call pleasant to drink but okay when chased with a glass of water. The taste is kind of reminiscent of calpol imo so kind of medecine. Dosen't really taste like fish.

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

Most importantly I'd emphasise that way more important than increasing omega 3 is minimising omega 6. Omega 6 is plentiful in oils that are liquid at room temperature barring fruit oils like olive and avocado.

Agreed here. Even products that emphasise having Omega 3 in them often have a lot more Omega 6 than 3 but just conveniently fail to mention it. I'm thinking in particular here of Flora butter. Used to think that was somewhat "healthy" and it has marketing jazz about Omega 3 on the cover but if you read the fine print the ratio of 3:6 is pretty bad IIRC.

Nuts are another offender for high levels of Omega 6 so use of nut butters should not perhaps be so liberal.

cobalamin

Redisle wrote: »

I'm using this stuff from myprotein at the moment. Got the orange flavour. 7.99 for 500ml and amounts per serving are pretty good:

Amount per 5ml serving:
EPA (Eicosapentaenoic acid): 825mg
DHA (Docosahexaenoic acid): 550mg

It isn't what I would call pleasant to drink but okay when chased with a glass of water. The taste is kind of reminiscent of calpol imo so kind of medecine. Dosen't really taste like fish.

EPA/DHA oils from fish contain toxins like PCBs and dioxins which lower testosterone and cause cancer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V325y7QCg3c

---

flaxseeds are high in phytoestrogens and lack Vitamins.

http://www.ajcn.org/content/92/5/1040.abstract

Read the study above. The Vegan women had the highest levels of DHA because they have the highest intake of vegetables. Vegetables and leafy greens like butterhead lettuce are not only a good source of ALA but an excellent source of Vitamins and Minerals.

Tar.Aldarion

cobalamin wrote: »

For those that would rather be safe than sorry, there is Omega 3 and Vitamin D3 Vegan supplements by ESB Developments Ltd. http://www.health-beauty-pr.com/esb/

That is actually the second one I was talking about. It has vegan D3 in it as well. I ordered it last night, 6 months of it for 88e.

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

Hi Tar,

Is there any specific reason you want to supplement? Just general health?

I'd go for the one with a ratio closest to 1-to-2 EPA to DHA that is most commonly found in fish.

Flaxseed oil can have it's role (just be super careful about keeping it in the fridge and never ever heating it), it's supposed to be excellent for treating bleeding gums.

Most importantly I'd emphasise that way more important than increasing omega 3 is minimising omega 6. Omega 6 is plentiful in oils that are liquid at room temperature barring fruit oils like olive and avocado.

No particular reason, I suppose general health and see does it make me feel any different even though I feel healthy. I don't think I intake a lot of it in my diet, and then it would only be ALA.

As for flaxseed, I would take that apart from the remarkably low conversion rate to DHA(1%)/EPA(4%) so it seems fairly useless for that. It may have other benefits but I don't think it;s the best for O3.

However this confuses me:

In a study of over 14,000 men and women, vegans with no intake of dietary EPA or DHA still had very high levels of plasma DHA and EPA, showing that conversion of ALA and omega-3 fatty acids is very efficient and much higher than sometimes reported in vegans. Male vegans had only slightly lower levels of DHA than female vegans, and only slightly lower levels than fish-eaters (195 compared to 240). EPA levels were higher in male vegans than in meat-eating and fish-eating males.

Perhaps a body increases conversion rates when needed?

You are right about O6 and that is why I simply don't take some sort of multivitamin, it's full of stuff I don't need like O6 and iron etc, where too much of it will cause health problems.

Redisle wrote: »

I'm using this stuff from myprotein at the moment. Got the orange flavour. 7.99 for 500ml and amounts per serving are pretty good:

Amount per 5ml serving:
EPA (Eicosapentaenoic acid): 825mg
DHA (Docosahexaenoic acid): 550mg

It isn't what I would call pleasant to drink but okay when chased with a glass of water. The taste is kind of reminiscent of calpol imo so kind of medecine. Dosen't really taste like fish.



Agreed here. Even products that emphasise having Omega 3 in them often have a lot more Omega 6 than 3 but just conveniently fail to mention it. I'm thinking in particular here of Flora butter. Used to think that was somewhat "healthy" and it has marketing jazz about Omega 3 on the cover but if you read the fine print the ratio of 3:6 is pretty bad IIRC.

Nuts are another offender for high levels of Omega 6 so use of nut butters should not perhaps be so liberal.

Thanks for the suggestion but I'm looking for a non-fish based product, which is why I have to pay way more than you

El_Dangeroso

cobalamin wrote: »

http://www.ajcn.org/content/92/5/1040.abstract

Read the study above. The Vegan women had the highest levels of DHA because they have the highest intake of vegetables. Vegetables and leafy greens like butterhead lettuce are not only a good source of ALA but an excellent source of Vitamins and Minerals.

Plasma DHA means feck all, in fact even the latest tissue tests are not completely validated.

Vegetables and leafy greens are not in any way a source of omega 3, no idea where you got that from?

cobalamin

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

Plasma DHA means feck all, in fact even the latest tissue tests are not completely validated.

Vegetables and leafy greens are not in any way a source of omega 3, no idea where you got that from?

USDA database and a program called cronometer that gets its data from the USDA database.

Fruits contain more than vegetables however every little bit counts when a person is not eating animal products. You have to understand that when a person eats meat, they're eating concentrated nutrients and obviously when a person doesn't eat meat, they have to eat a lot more to meet the nutritional requirements.

Some people that don't eat meat, tend to eat a lot more, over the run of the day, we ingest a good amount of omega 3's and also eat less excessive amounts of unnatural fats, hence the biochemistry in the body works clean.

No offense, but when a person eats meat, they need to shower, hence the high amounts of fat in the meat clogs up the body, slower biochemistry. A meat eaters body is like a clogged up old beater.

Fish is probably a different story though but its still loaded with dioxins and PCB's at the moment.

As for the brain, protein is just as important as Omega 3's according to this article: http://journals.cambridge.org/download.php?file=%2FBJN%2FBJN96_01%2FS0007114506001711a.pdf&code=da1932108ad8f2d8d36eebf438633b36

El_Dangeroso

cobalamin wrote: »

USDA database and a program called cronometer that gets its data from the USDA database.

Fruits contain more than vegetables however every little bit counts when a person is not eating animal products. You have to understand that when a person eats meat, they're eating concentrated nutrients and obviously when a person doesn't eat meat, they have to eat a lot more to meet the nutritional requirements.

Some people that don't eat meat, tend to eat a lot more, over the run of the day, we ingest a good amount of omega 3's and also eat less excessive amounts of unnatural fats, hence the biochemistry in the body works clean.

No offense, but when a person eats meat, they need to shower, hence the high amounts of fat in the meat clogs up the body, slower biochemistry. A meat eaters body is like a clogged up old beater.

Fish is probably a different story though but its still loaded with dioxins and PCB's at the moment.

As for the brain, protein is just as important as Omega 3's according to this article: http://journals.cambridge.org/download.php?file=%2FBJN%2FBJN96_01%2FS0007114506001711a.pdf&code=da1932108ad8f2d8d36eebf438633b36

Oh jesus, no offence but there was so much psuedo-science in that post I can't actually begin to address it.

Orla K

cobalamin wrote: »

No offense, but when a person eats meat, they need to shower, hence the high amounts of fat in the meat clogs up the body, slower biochemistry. A meat eaters body is like a clogged up old beater.

I don't get this what does a need to shower have to do with anything?

cobalamin

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

Oh jesus, no offence but there was so much psuedo-science in that post I can't actually begin to address it.

Address it. Anyone can put down anyone. It takes balls to explain it.

Its not psuedo-science. Cooking fat(meat,dairy,oils,nuts) causes oxidation of fat which gets absorbed and incorporated into LDL proteins. Oxidized LDL proteins travel in plasma and eventually attach themselves to the artery walls, known as atherosclerosis.

Are you going to eat meat raw? Go paleo raw?

Article on cognitive dissonance and explaining the mind-games of meat-eaters. - http://www2.psy.uq.edu.au/~uqbbast1/Bastian%20et%20al%20PSPB%20in%20press.pdf

Orla K wrote: »

I don't get this what does a need to shower have to do with anything?

It all has to do with the efficiency of the biochemistry of the body. What happens on the outside organs of the body is happening on the inside organs of the body. The skin expells toxins out that obviously come from inside the body. These toxins only come from whatever a person is ingesting.

Plus none of us were born with a bathtub attached to our backs, showering is unnatural.

Excess fat clogs up capilleries(Capillaries are the smallest of a body's blood vessels), especially those on the head attached to the hair on the scalp, hair falls down is a sign of minor clogging, what do you think is happening in the heart? Heart disease in the future?

A sluggish biochemistry always keeps the body in clean up mode and hence less conversion of ALA to EPA/DHA.

I am addressing how people's BAD HABITS have an effect on the biochemstry of the body. If you wanna hear good things about your bad habits, don't bother replying to my messages.

El_Dangeroso

cobalamin wrote: »

Address it. Anyone can put down anyone. It takes balls to explain it.

Its not psuedo-science. Cooking fat(meat,dairy,oils,nuts) causes oxidation of fat which gets absorbed and incorporated into LDL proteins. Oxidized LDL proteins travel in plasma and eventually attach themselves to the artery walls, known as atherosclerosis.

Are you going to eat meat raw? Go paleo raw?

Sigh, Ok I'll bite. Do you know what else causes oxidisation? Carbohydrate. Google oxidative stress and carbohydrate. But you know why that doesn't mean carbohydrate is intrinsically atheroslcerotic? Because our body has a sophisticted system of antioxidant capabilities. The so-called 'master-antioxidant' glutathione which is synthesised in the body from cysteine and glycine, amino acids present in fatty meats.

I mean we've been cooking meat for about a million years, do you not think that that's time enough to adapt to eating it? We stopped being herbivores a long long time ago.

Athersclerosis is not even a determining factor in heart attacks, you have to have a ruptured plaque to truly cause an MI, basically it's too compicated to go into here but it mostly centers around the thyroids ability to upregulate the LDL receptor in the liver.

cobalamin wrote: »

Article on cognitive dissonance and explaining the mind-games of meat-eaters. -
http://www2.psy.uq.edu.au/~uqbbast1/Bastian%20et%20al%20PSPB%20in%20press.pdf

I'm sorry but I'm an unapologetic meat eater. I think something dies so I can live and I have made my peace with that. Have you?

cobalamin wrote: »

It all has to do with the efficiency of the biochemistry of the body. What happens on the outside organs of the body is happening on the inside organs of the body. The skin expells toxins out that obviously come from inside the body. These toxins only come from whatever a person is ingesting.

Plus none of us were born with a bathtub attached to our backs, showering is unnatural.

Excess fat clogs up capilleries(Capillaries are the smallest of a body's blood vessels), especially those on the head attached to the hair on the scalp, hair falls down is a sign of minor clogging, what do you think is happening in the heart? Heart disease in the future?

A sluggish biochemistry always keeps the body in clean up mode and hence less conversion of ALA to EPA/DHA.

I am addressing how people's BAD HABITS have an effect on the biochemstry of the body. If you wanna hear good things about your bad habits, don't bother replying to my messages.

Do you have any peer-reviewed paper showing that conversion of ALA to DHA is upregulated in people who do not eat meat or fish? Because I have never seen evidence of this. In fact since supplementary DHA seems to improve the health markers of vegans in several trials, you'd think that they weren't really getting enough on average.

howtomake

Looked it up, found this interesting.

http://www.hindawi.com/journals/jnume/2012/238056/

All I really understood from the above link was this...

In conclusion, macronutrient composition of the diet may differentially alter the postprandial pro-oxidative milieu, with high-carbohydrate meals potentially leading to greater oxidative stress response. However, both meals increased circulating IL6, regardless of the type of nutrient consumed.

cobalamin

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

Sigh, Ok I'll bite. Do you know what else causes oxidisation? Carbohydrate. Google oxidative stress and carbohydrate. But you know why that doesn't mean carbohydrate is intrinsically atheroslcerotic? Because our body has a sophisticted system of antioxidant capabilities. The so-called 'master-antioxidant' glutathione which is synthesised in the body from cysteine and glycine, amino acids present in fatty meats.

This only happens when ingesting carbohydrates that we would never ingest in their natural state, grains and carbohydrate drinks that lack fiber.

cysteine and glycine come from vegetation. Mammals don't produce amino acids, plants do.

Astaxanthin is the master-antioxidant. Carotenes and Xanthophylls are more powerful than glutathione.

I mean we've been cooking meat for about a million years, do you not think that that's time enough to adapt to eating it? We stopped being herbivores a long long time ago.

Nope. No mammal will ever adapt to denatured food.

We aren't herbivores. Our colon is half the size of the apes closest to us; very little fermentation. However our intestines is twice the size of theirs. We are more adapted to eating ripe fruits and tender leafy greens. I also like to take evolution into account. I do believe we are omnivores however where I differ is that I don't believe we are meant to eat all animals.

Eating easy to digest sea food high in EPA/DHA with the available high-concentrated protein is what helped our brains expand. For the sake of evolution, cleaning up the planet and eating a diet with raw fish, ripe fruits and edible raw vegetables seems to me like the healthiest way to go.

Meat from terrestial animals hurts our bodies and especially meat from much bigger animals.

Athersclerosis is not even a determining factor in heart attacks, you have to have a ruptured plaque to truly cause an MI, basically it's too compicated to go into here but it mostly centers around the thyroids ability to upregulate the LDL receptor in the liver.

Atherosclerosis is the build up of plaque. Can you predict what happens over the length of years to a heart that keeps building up plaque?

Arterial plaque abstructs blood flow, heart pressure increases which leads to plaque rupturing.

I'm sorry but I'm an unapologetic meat eater. I think something dies so I can live and I have made my peace with that. Have you?

Dies naturally? or do you mean the slaughter house killing the animal for you?

You would puke if you had to kill the animal yourself.

I don't care if you eat meat, the flesh is hurting you.

Do you have any peer-reviewed paper showing that conversion of ALA to DHA is upregulated in people who do not eat meat or fish? Because I have never seen evidence of this. In fact since supplementary DHA seems to improve the health markers of vegans in several trials, you'd think that they weren't really getting enough on average.

http://jn.nutrition.org/content/131/2/231.full

Homeostasis is efficient when sufficient ALA is ingested through natural foods like fruits and vegetables. We can survive however we won't evolve and develop more advanced brains.

howtomake wrote: »

Looked it up, found this interesting.

http://www.hindawi.com/journals/jnume/2012/238056/

All I really understood from the above link was this...

This is quack science.

Everyone that eats meat has hyperlipidemia(high blood fat), feeding someone a high-carb diet with vains full of fat will give a result in favour of fat and make carbohydrates look like the bad guy.

No mammal on this planet puts high fat food and a high carb food on the same plate. What mammals do is eat their primary instinct food, for us humans its sugar(fruits) and then kill other mammals to survive. Anyone ever take the laws of nature into account? No!

howtomake

What makes it quack science? Did they not test both high fat meals and high carb meals, and found greater oxidation with high carb meals? Or was it because there wasn't a control group that were not meat eaters? I have no attachment (just something I googled) to the article at all and I am just curious.

El_Dangeroso

cobalamin wrote: »

This only happens when ingesting carbohydrates that we would never ingest in their natural state, grains and carbohydrate drinks that lack fiber.

No, all carbohydrate ingestion causes some oxidative stress, so does breathing and exercise. Endogenous oxidisation is a far more potent cause of oxidative stress than consuming externally oxidatised food.

Not that you want to go around eating oxidised fat for the sake of it but even oxidised fish oil seems to give a net benefit.

cobalamin wrote: »

cysteine and glycine come from vegetation. Mammals don't produce amino acids, plants do.

Astaxanthin is the master-antioxidants. Carotenes and xanthophills are more powerful than glutathione.

Ehh, no, unless you are talking about EXOGENOUS anti-oxidants (glutathione being largely useless in that regard). The research on Astaxanthin is very much in it's infancy. And besides, it's in fish oil and salmon!

In any case, the only plant-based version of Astaxanthin is in supplements, not food. I'd tread very carefully in terms of supplementing with powerful anti-oxidants as the research tends towards harm in the long term, as some oxidative stress is necessary and good.

cobalamin wrote: »

Nope. No mammal will ever adapt to denatured food.

Huh? You do realise the reason we cooked meat is because it gave us a survival ADVANTAGE. That's kind of how natural selection works. I'd love you to go on to some anthropology forums spouting that..

cobalamin wrote: »

We aren't herbivores. Our colon is half the size of the apes closest to us; very little fermentation. However our intestines is twice the size of theirs. We are more adapted to eating ripe fruits and tender leafy greens. I also like to take evolution into account. I do believe we are omnivores however where I differ is that I don't believe we are meant to eat all animals.

Why? What do you mean by 'meant'?

cobalamin wrote: »

Eating easy to digest sea food high in EPA/DHA with the available high-concentrated protein is what helped our brains expand. For the sake of evolution, cleaning up the planet and eating a diet with raw fish, ripe fruits and edible raw vegetables seems to me like the healthiest way to go.

I know people who became much much sicker eating raw paleo, who then got better eating cooked food. There is nothing at all wrong with a cooked potato to say anything else is compete opinion.

cobalamin wrote: »

Meat from terrestial animals hurts our bodies and especially meat from much bigger animals.

Bollocksology of the highest order.

cobalamin wrote: »

Atherosclerosis is the build up of plaque. Can you predict what happens over the length of years to a heart that keeps building up plaque?

Arterial plaque abstructs blood flow, heart pressure increases which leads to plaque rupturing.

Nope, arterial plaque most of the time does not rupture. If you read some medical text books you will see that arteries are not pipes.

cobalamin wrote: »

Dies naturally? or do you mean the slaughter house killing the animal for you?

You would puke if you had to kill the animal yourself.

No I wouldn't, I'd love to hunt something and eat it, I think that's the most honest form of omnivory. Do you think nothing gets killed growing leafy greens and fruit? Or have you not looked into it?

cobalamin wrote: »

http://jn.nutrition.org/content/131/2/231.full

Homeostasis is efficient when sufficient ALA is ingested through natural foods like fruits and vegetables. We can survive however we won't evolve and develop more advanced brains.

Ehh, sorry where does it say in that paper that conversion from ALA is upregulated? All I can see from that paper is that if you shove less omega 6 into people they absorb more omega 3. It's pretty well known they compete for absorption. Next paper?

cobalamin

howtomake wrote: »

What makes it quack science? Did they not test both high fat meals and high carb meals, and found greater oxidation with high carb meals? Or was it because there wasn't a control group that were not meat eaters? I have no attachment (just something I googled) to the article at all and I am just curious.

Yes because those that eat meat have dyslipidemia(high blood fat). When the control group ingested high carb foods, their blood stream is still full of fat which makes the whole study invalid.

"Inflammation and oxidative stress are postulated to impair beta-cell function and exacerbate insulin resistance(cells become resistant to insuline) in type 2 diabetes [1, 2] and often coexist in atherosclerosis and cardiovascular disease [3]. Many studies have reported inflammation and oxidative stress in the fasting state in obesity and type 2 diabetes [4–7]. This is usually in the presence of hyperglycaemia(high blood sugar) and dyslipidemia(high blood fat), which are known triggers of inflammatory and oxidative stress pathways. In cells and in animal models, it is becoming apparent that inflammatory cytokines and reactive oxygen species (ROS) contribute to the early development of insulin resistance [8–10]."

Correlation isn't causation.

Insulin resistance correlates with type 2 diabetes but it has nothing to do with it.

Insulin resistance is the cells becoming resistant to insulin because of hyperglycaemia(high blood sugar) and dyslipidemia(high blood fat) at the same time. The pancreas is working perfectly. A person can eat the same controlled portion of foods their whole lives, a plate of pasta(high carb) and a second with meat(high fat) and vegetables, become insulin resistant after every meal their whole lives and never develop type 2 diabetes.

Inflammation in the pancreas impairs beta-cells which leads to type 2 diabetes as they state. Too many omega 6's, dioxins, PCB's, toxins etc..

Unnatural carbohydrates like grains, processed foods and unripe fruits are all inflammatory to the human body BUT so are high-fat foods like cooked flesh, roasted nuts and oils(too high in omega 6).

Ripe raw fruits, raw leafy greens and raw fish are all anti-inflammatory.

Orla K

I was going to argue and all that but, I really don't see the point anymore. I know I'm much healthier and happier now that I'm eating lots of animal products(rendered my own tallow:D so proud of myself for that one) I eat what would be considered a high fat diet and when I wasn't eating so much of these healthy foods I was a hell of a lot sicker. With saying all that you think your way is best and ye know what, it doesn't matter, I do think your wrong on alot of things but your not going to change your mind.

I'm going to be nice to you and since your new to boards and are obviously vegan/vegetarian I'm going to show you a forum you might enjoy here

I am addressing how people's BAD HABITS have an effect on the biochemstry of the body. If you wanna hear good things about your bad habits, don't bother replying to my messages.

As for this, it makes you sound like very preachy, which I hope your not. And I will reply to your messages if I desire to!

I'm with El_D I'd love to hunt for my own food and have the right guns/licences/permissions for it. I will also eat some raw meat, been caught sucking on a steak before cooking it:o(generally have it blue too)

I will say perhaps you should open up more to other possibilities, you do seem very entrenched in your view that meat is a 'bad habit' which I have learned it's really far from that.

El_Dangeroso

FWIW I don't think cobalamin is vegan, but I think some kind of raw-foodist, did I get that right? As in some raw fish is included in the diet. Insects too perhaps?

In any case I'm not going to participate any further because I'm actually doing real research in diabetes and the statement 'insulin resistance has nothing to do with the pathophysiology of type 2 diabetes' is my cue to bow out as the discussion has gone beyond the bounds of logic and reason. Pretty much all this has been covered in other debates ad nauseum! Have fun with the search function!

I'm going for a nice walk on this spring evening!:)

cobalamin

Orla K wrote: »

I was going to argue and all that but, I really don't see the point anymore. I know I'm much healthier and happier now that I'm eating lots of animal products(rendered my own tallow:D so proud of myself for that one) I eat what would be considered a high fat diet and when I wasn't eating so much of these healthy foods I was a hell of a lot sicker. With saying all that you think your way is best and ye know what, it doesn't matter, I do think your wrong on alot of things but your not going to change your mind.

I ain't Vegan.

What healthy foods are you talking about? If you're talking about grains, well, thats your mistake for assuming that they're health foods.

Meat lacks folic acid, magnesium, vitamin C, vitamin K, vitamin A etc.. plus it makes the body stink. :rolleyes:

I'm going to be nice to you and since your new to boards and are obviously vegan/vegetarian I'm going to show you a forum you might enjoy here

You're not nice. Typical assumption.

As for this, it makes you sound like a preachy b*tch, which I hope your not. And I will reply to your messages if I desire to!

Such big words! You should head back to kindergarden so the teacher can wash your mouth with a soap bar!

I'm with El_D I'd love to hunt for my own food and have the right guns/licences/permissions for it. I will also eat some raw meat, been caught sucking on a steak before cooking it:o(generally have it blue too)

You've never hunted. You'll get the thrill of shooting guns like most hunters but if you had to stab the animal yourself, would you really do it? and not get traumatized by the experience?

I will say perhaps you should open up more to other possibilities, you do seem very entrenched in your view that meat is a 'bad habit' which I have learned it's really far from that.

I use to eat high-fat/low-carb diet, meat and some vegetables, no fish and even though I was stable mentality like how I am now, I never had my teeth whiten themselves, strong nails and great skin until I ate a lot of greens. I learnt that a high fat diet is a diet for lazy people in the sense that you have to eat a lot less, I learn't that it lacks big time in Vitamins, Minerals, Antioxidants and not to mention water!

If we could eat any animal like true omnivores, we wouldn't need vegetables on the same plate as the meat to prevent constipation.

You sound like the typical person that use to take antibiotics like candy and eat ****ty processed food, then bing, then hate yourself, then eat more junk food, then bing some more and you're trying to give me a lecture on nutrition. :rolleyes:

FWIW I don't think cobalamin is vegan, but I think some kind of raw-foodist, did I get that right? As in some raw fish is included in the diet. Insects too perhaps?

Hahahahah. Its weird, I have an instinct towards catching fish when I see them in a lake but insects, I see them as pests, I kill them immediately.

In any case I'm not going to participate any further because I'm actually doing real research in diabetes and the statement 'insulin resistance has nothing to do with the pathophysiology of type 2 diabetes' is my cue to bow out as the discussion has gone beyond the bounds of logic and reason. Pretty much all this has been covered in other debates ad nauseum! Have fun with the search function!

Tell it to the Italian's with their well known high cases of Insulin Resistance and very low cases of type 2 diabetes.

Brian?

Now, I haven't a baldy who's right or wrong in this here discussion. But could we not keep it clean and polite? By all means disagree with posts but lets not attack other posters please.

Otherwise there will be consequnces.

metamorphosis

I stopped reading when it said to take a shower after eating meat.
I know better as a researcher, and Iv known better since I was a kid.
But, anyway, less of the abuse, more of the niceness like stated above