Leap: Not quite as bad compared to others

L1011

Seeing as the main Leap threads here have been moaning about it having problems compared to Oyster (which it does, in its droves) I thought I'd compared it to the system in use in the Netherlands, which I had the displeasure of having to use at the weekend.

The OV-Chipkaart has replaced basically all tickets for the main modes of transport - singles bought on board trams are disposable paper cards with RFID radios in them, for instance. It started being used in 2005 so they've had 7 years to work out any issues.

To get an "anonymous" card, you have to pay €7.50, which doesn't sound too bad, till you realise its completely empty with no reserve credit. Its not entirely obvious WHERE to buy one at that. The card also expires after a time, the one I got is a bit over 5 years so I'd imagine it depends on the age of the stock where you get it. Can't tell if you have to pay again for a new one.

When you eventually get one, you can usually load credit where you buy it. But not everywhere wants to let you use cash - and a lot of the places that take card only seem to take Chipknip which is a Dutch-specific system. The very, very few machines issued by the GVB let you use Maestro (including Laser/Maestro cards) or, for a fee, credit cards.

Now that you've got the card, it works as you might expect. But despite the fact its been deployed for ages; they also don't have capping, or any proper concept of a return journey. They do have transferring, whereby the base fare for a tram isn't charged again (meaning you just pay by distance) and the tram fares are very low anyway; but that's a different issue.

Also, officially you're meant to have €4 on the card to be allowed use a tram and €20 to be allowed use a train - this despite the tram fares starting at €0.85 and train journies being very cheap (€3.80 to get to the airport). However I was able to tag on with less than €4 on a tram so this is either bent or broken (or changed since the info was put on their own website!)

The Netherlands is often given as an example of an ideal PT system on here, whereas its pretty clear to me that in this area at least, they've implemented a system far, far worse than anything we have.

Still doesn't get around the fact that we should have just looked to buy a copy of Oyster, mind.

noelfirl

Also, whilst accepting that OV chipkaart was rolled out on a national basis, the cost of introducing the system has been quoted in places as anywhere from €100-500 million. It was also plagued by technical issues in the beginning with readers failing to recognise cards, etc.

All systems like this have problems and issues when introduced. The important thing for our system is that the improvements outlined before as "coming soon" are actually introduced and that continous effort is made to further integrate and reform the fare system that underlies everything. I don't think that Leap is anywhere near as much as a ballsup as some members on here seem to think, but improvements are defintely needed.

n900guy

MYOB wrote: »

Seeing as the main Leap threads here have been moaning about it having problems compared to Oyster (which it does, in its droves) I thought I'd compared it to the system in use in the Netherlands, which I had the displeasure of having to use at the weekend.

The OV-Chipkaart has replaced basically all tickets for the main modes of transport - singles bought on board trams are disposable paper cards with RFID radios in them, for instance. It started being used in 2005 so they've had 7 years to work out any issues.

To get an "anonymous" card, you have to pay €7.50, which doesn't sound too bad, till you realise its completely empty with no reserve credit. Its not entirely obvious WHERE to buy one at that. The card also expires after a time, the one I got is a bit over 5 years so I'd imagine it depends on the age of the stock where you get it. Can't tell if you have to pay again for a new one.

When you eventually get one, you can usually load credit where you buy it. But not everywhere wants to let you use cash - and a lot of the places that take card only seem to take Chipknip which is a Dutch-specific system. The very, very few machines issued by the GVB let you use Maestro (including Laser/Maestro cards) or, for a fee, credit cards.

Now that you've got the card, it works as you might expect. But despite the fact its been deployed for ages; they also don't have capping, or any proper concept of a return journey. They do have transferring, whereby the base fare for a tram isn't charged again (meaning you just pay by distance) and the tram fares are very low anyway; but that's a different issue.

Also, officially you're meant to have €4 on the card to be allowed use a tram and €20 to be allowed use a train - this despite the tram fares starting at €0.85 and train journies being very cheap (€3.80 to get to the airport). However I was able to tag on with less than €4 on a tram so this is either bent or broken (or changed since the info was put on their own website!)

The Netherlands is often given as an example of an ideal PT system on here, whereas its pretty clear to me that in this area at least, they've implemented a system far, far worse than anything we have.

Still doesn't get around the fact that we should have just looked to buy a copy of Oyster, mind.

I use it everyday. It's pretty straightforward and isn't Oyster so I can see why you may be expected the "british" way but there are a few important points.

1) the transport system is not the UK (and therefore Irish) style of everything collecting into one choke point. So, distance travelled is a pretty clear way of determining cost. The return journey is the exact same price as the outgoing journey so what is the problem? You also have a huge amount of potential routes to takes criss-crossing the country so buying a return ticket is useful to save time only as it's basically double the cost of one-way.

2) the anonymous chipcard costs money and you can get it back if you give back the card. the expiry date of five years time is also printed on the reverse of the card.

3) the OV system is spread across the ~ 8 million population of Holland (so close to the population of London), but it allows you to store travel discount products automatically and also is entirely integrated between national rail, bus, metro. Oyster is not as far as I am aware usable to board National rail in the UK like in Netherlands.

4) there is a pretty clear "OV" logo on the machines that sell OV cards. The machines that don't sell the cards do not have the logo and don't have it as an option. So, use the the machines with the logo if you want to buy a chipcard, right?

5) loading money: again machines are pretty clear on if you can use cash (coins), chipknip (electronic purse on your ATM card), debit card function, Meastro (i.e., international debit) or else the credit card services (Visa/MC credit or debit - extra charges). OPtions not available are grayed out so again, I don't see what the problem is?

5) Capping and fares: the maximum fair on the metro or tram is €4. It is deducted from your card, and if you exit before the maximum fair distance, the amount unused is refunded. Therefore, you can't cheat the system witha shorter distance "ticket purchase". They take the full cost, and give back what you don't use. It's the same with the rail journeys for €20, which pretty much gets you all around the country one way. Likewise, what is the concept of a return journey that they don't get? If you want to come back the same distance, you pay the same amount again? Or is it that you want a discount for doign a return journey? You can tag it on with under €4 as it will allow you into -€4 credit max. I.e., if you have €0,30, it will become -€3.70 when you enter a tram or metro. It will be counted if/when you top up again. This is for example built into the €7,50 fee (you can get €4 credit at most and the RFID card costs e.g., €3,50).

Like I said, I use it daily. The RET is clear than GVB when telling you how much left on your card after every journey in metros, but I find it flawless. The far system of distance charging makes it very easy and no need for special return fares because like I said, all transports don't converge centrally like the UK and Ireland. You pay per km travelled not whether you go to Paddington and return or Busaras and return. Same as how future private car travel will be with electric charging per km. Ie.., get on a tram in Amsterdam, onto the train to Rotterdam, onto metro, onto a bus, etc., all on one card.

It also allows for clear discounts like 40% discounting off of offpeak train fairs for €55 a year. Or unlimited access to the whole national train network anytime for €290/month. The zones etc., from the UK are entirely artificial borders IMO, and charging per km travelled makes a lot more sense. A one way train ticket of €3.80 will be €7.60 return? That is pretty clear right??

If you compare to the UK, you have a system exclusive to certain parts of the London transport system. Imagine if Oyster was usable throughout the entire UK on all buses, trams, underground and national rail and you have a comparison. And if National Rail in the UK allowed unlimited travel across the whole country for under £250/month I will eat my hat!

L1011

n900guy wrote: »

2) the anonymous chipcard costs money and you can get it back if you give back the card. the expiry date of five years time is also printed on the reverse of the card.

The expiry date isn't made clear when you buy the card. Leap cards don't expire.

n900guy wrote: »

3) the OV system is spread across the ~ 8 million population of Holland (so close to the population of London), but it allows you to store travel discount products automatically and also is entirely integrated between national rail, bus, metro. Oyster is not as far as I am aware usable to board National rail in the UK like in Netherlands.

Leap will be available across the Republic once fully rolled out. That's what I'm comparing it to.

n900guy wrote: »

4) there is a pretty clear "OV" logo on the machines that sell OV cards. The machines that don't sell the cards do not have the logo and don't have it as an option. So, use the the machines with the logo if you want to buy a chipcard, right?

There are very, very few of these machines.

n900guy wrote: »

5) loading money: again machines are pretty clear on if you can use cash (coins), chipknip (electronic purse on your ATM card), debit card function, Meastro (i.e., international debit) or else the credit card services (Visa/MC credit or debit - extra charges). OPtions not available are grayed out so again, I don't see what the problem is?

As above - very few machines, and most of the machines outside of train stations are only willing to take Chipknip which tourists cannot have. Compare to here where there are at least two machines at each and every tram stop.

n900guy wrote: »

It also allows for clear discounts like 40% discounting off of offpeak train fairs for €55 a year. Or unlimited access to the whole national train network anytime for €290/month. The zones etc., from the UK are entirely artificial borders IMO, and charging per km travelled makes a lot more sense. A one way train ticket of €3.80 will be €7.60 return? That is pretty clear right?

None of which is available unless you have a Dutch postal address and quite a bit of time to wait.

Returns being double single is precisely how Leap has it implemented also.

n900guy wrote: »

If you compare to the UK, you have a system exclusive to certain parts of the London transport system. Imagine if Oyster was usable throughout the entire UK on all buses, trams, underground and national rail and you have a comparison. And if National Rail in the UK allowed unlimited travel across the whole country for under £250/month I will eat my hat!

The Oyster area is about as big as the entire NL system...

n900guy

I found the UK system more confusing. I have no idea what zone what is in, for example! Unless you are a local or regular visitor, you won't know.

So, in my mind price per km and the on-stop shop 9292ov navigation tool for point to point travel across all modes of transport, including exact cost beforehand is miles better. Uk seems much more "in pieces" of zones and districts that are totally made up.

L1011

n900guy wrote: »

I found the UK system more confusing. I have no idea what zone what is in, for example! Unless you are a local or regular visitor, you won't know.

So, in my mind price per km and the on-stop shop 9292ov navigation tool for point to point travel across all modes of transport, including exact cost beforehand is miles better. Uk seems much more "in pieces" of zones and districts that are totally made up.

That's a fare issue rather than a card issue.

p

MYOB wrote: »

That's a fare issue rather than a card issue.

You can't separate the two. You actually need to design them both hand in hand to make a usable, smart service.

L1011

p wrote: »

You can't separate the two. You actually need to design them both hand in hand to make a usable, smart service.

Oyster is generally seen as usable. There's far too many other things wrong with the OV card, including in fares (capping) to make it usable.

If they still sold the strippen tickets, I'd still have used them. I suspect they withdrew them because too many people *were* still using them.

foggy_lad

MYOB wrote: »

Oyster is generally seen as usable. There's far too many other things wrong with the OV card, including in fares (capping) to make it usable.

If they still sold the strippen tickets, I'd still have used them. I suspect they withdrew them because too many people *were* still using them.

Just like they increased the travel90 tickets by a massive amount recently because they were and for most journeys still are cheaper than the leap card.

bk

I used it only two weeks ago and it is a great system, much, MUCH better then Leap (well the whole public transport set up is).

Yes, I agree it isn't ideally suited to tourists, that is why they have tickets that offer 1 - 7 days of unlimited transport from just €7!

However Leapcard is just as bad or even worse for tourists. Want to get your deposit and credit back, you have to print off a pdf, fill it out and post it to Leapcard customer services!!

At least with OV card, you can get your money back at travel desks at airports and rail stations. You can't even buy the bloody leap card at travel desks at airports and railways here in Ireland and you think leap is better!!

The best thing about OV card is it is tag-on and tag-off on all forms of transport, including bus. No confusion like you get with Dublin Bus and Leap here, just tag-on at the front door, tag-off at either of the rare doors while exiting, works very well. Very low dwell times on buses.

BTW even the tickets you can buy on the bus (expensive) are like travel 90, offering 60 minutes of travel on all forms of public transport and they are disposable rfid cards.

OV card doesn't have capping, but then it doesn't really need it due to the excellent mutli-trip multi-mode charging setup that is VERY cheap.

You pay a base fare of 80 cent when you first tag on, then something like 11 cent per km, if you transfer to a different bus or even a different type of transport (tram, metro) within 60 minutes, you are not charged the base fare again, you just continue to pay the per km charge for whatever distance you travel.

This is an excellent way for such a system to work. It makes it very easy to use and understand and encourages people to use different and multiple forms of travel. Much better then capping IMO and obviously way better and cheaper then Dublins non existent system.

As for 5 years expiry, this is due to the expected life expectancy of rfid cards due to the materials used. While there is no official life expectancy for leap, the same applies as it is made out of the exact same materials.

You can get a free OV card replacement when it expires.

BTW if you don't use your leap card for 24 months, it automatically gets cancelled and you may lose your balance. VERY inconvenient for returning travelers.

BBTW leapcard isn't national, the projects goals is set to only cover the greater Dublin region. There are currently no plans to cover Cork, Limerick, etc. It should do and hopefully it will be expanded to do so, but at the moment it is outside the scope of the project.

A few other points:
- OV card website is far nicer, more modern and easier to understand then the leap site, even in English:
http://www.ov-chipkaart.nl/?taal=en
It has all the obvious things you might want to do, up front and easy to find (e.g. check transactions, load credit, request refund for forgetting to check out, automated top-ups).
The leap website is really terrible in comparison.
- You can load other types of tickets on it, like monthly, yearly tickets, etc.
- Automated top-ups work on it
- You can get personalised, student and oap's OV cards which offer student/oap discounts.
- The OV card covers all train journeys, will we ever see this on Irish Rail?
- Imagine you can get a train to anywhere in Holland for maximum €20 single (beats the hell out of €40 to Cork on Irish Rail) and on very comfortable, electric powered double deckers.
- Buses in Holland are super, all have three doors, board at the front, exit at the two rare doors, fast and efficient boarding.
- All buses have superb destination screens which show the next four stops and the Estimated arrival time at each stop.
- All buses, trams, metros and trains throughout the country are plugged into Google maps and transit. This is mind blowing, you really need to try it to experience how superb it is to see the bus you are on being updated live on google maps with the ETA at your destination being updated in real time!

To be honest, public transport, including OV card, in Holland is light years ahead of Ireland. One of the best systems I've ever used, even better then Oyster * and the UK.

* Oyster can actually be really confusing for tourists. Do you get an oyster card or a visitor oyster card (they are different). Do you get a daily travel card? For how many zones? Off peak or peak pass?

n97 mini

I think the thread title should have been Leap: could have been worse.

Yeah, but it could have been so much better. I think anyone will agree it's pretty shit.

Victor

n900guy wrote: »

And if National Rail in the UK allowed unlimited travel across the whole country for under £250/month I will eat my hat!

In fairness, it is 1,372km from Lands End John O' Groats in Britain: http://maps.google.ie/maps?q=Lands+End+cornwall,+United+Kingdom+to+John+O%27+Groats,+Wick,+United+Kingdom&saddr=Lands+End+cornwall,+United+Kingdom&daddr=John+O%27+Groats,+Wick,+United+Kingdom&hl=en&sll=54.35701,-3.839915&sspn=13.104818,39.506836&geocode=FSTx-wIdDtqo_yH2l1FiHEzjOA%3BFavUfgMdoi7R_yFKf7nrkaQEFw&doflg=ptk&t=m&z=5 compared to 448km from Sint Anna ter Muiden to Bad Nieuweschans in The Netherlands: http://maps.google.ie/maps?q=Sint+Anna+ter+Muiden,+The+Netherlands+to+Bad+Nieuweschans,+The+Netherlands&saddr=Sint+Anna+ter+Muiden,+The+Netherlands&daddr=Bad+Nieuweschans,+The+Netherlands&hl=en&sll=52.20192,5.26005&sspn=3.440882,9.876709&geocode=FWP9DgMdKlYzACknaBsvT6fERzEZAoouQZM-ig%3BFWWDKwMdAN1tACldtB5cNzW2RzHKAbbLQASdzQ&oq=Sint+Anna+ter+Muiden,+The+Netherlands+to+Bad+,+The+Netherlands&t=m&z=7 and 603km from West Cork to north Antrim: http://maps.google.ie/maps?saddr=Ballaghboy,+Cork&daddr=Ballycastle&hl=en&ll=53.396432,-8.151855&spn=6.697041,19.753418&sll=53.40191,-8.0327&sspn=6.697041,19.753418&geocode=FSSDEwMdnyZl_ykrk-44z4JPSDGCcbe6p8cAJg%3BFZZOSgMdtI2g_ylxtbV-UytgSDGpRekRQsbOmw&dirflg=h&mra=ls&t=m&z=6

Louche Lad

It's annoying that Paris doesn't have something like the Oyster.

And before you say "yes it does, it's got the Navigo", the problem with the Navigo is you have to put a minimum of a weekly pass on it so it's useless for millions of people like myself who only use the Métro for one or two days at a time. So I have to fiddle about getting these stupid card tickets out of my wallet or from a machine hoping I don't get my pocket picked or my bag stolen.

I wish Paris had an Oyster system so I could load up with credit and whizz through as and when I visited.

munchkin_utd

Louche Lad wrote: »

It's annoying that Paris doesn't have something like the Oyster.

to be fair, the carnets are a great job for the metro and the fact its only about a euro per journey its as cheap as a day ticket would cost you in London(7/8 euro isnt it?) for the amount of journeys that you would make as a tourist.

getting them at a station can be a hassle, until you realise that the nearest newsagent also normally stocks them at the same price but without any queue or homeless junkies hassling you.

L1011

bk wrote: »

I used it only two weeks ago and it is a great system, much, MUCH better then Leap

I disagree hugely.

bk wrote: »

At least with OV card, you can get your money back at travel desks at airports and rail stations. You can't even buy the bloody leap card at travel desks at airports and railways here in Ireland and you think leap is better!

You can get, and top up, Leap cards in far more locations than OV cards. Where, precisely, is the "travel desk" in Dublin Airport anyway?

bk wrote: »

OV card doesn't have capping, but then it doesn't really need it due to the excellent mutli-trip multi-mode charging setup that is VERY cheap.

A days tram or bus travel that doesn't come within transfer times adds up to a LOT more than a 24 hour ticket. People moan about the lack of capping here yet its being defended now...

bk wrote: »

You can get a free OV card replacement when it expires.

Not made clear anywhere.

bk wrote: »

- OV card website is far nicer, more modern and easier to understand then the leap site, even in English:
http://www.ov-chipkaart.nl/?taal=en

Except 90% of the site in "English" is, in fact, in Dutch. Try navigating around it.

bk wrote: »

- You can load other types of tickets on it, like monthly, yearly tickets, etc.
- Automated top-ups work on it
- You can get personalised, student and oap's OV cards which offer student/oap discounts.

If you apply and wait for a 'personalised' card, rather than just buying the *only* type of card and registering it.

bk wrote: »

- The OV card covers all train journeys, will we ever see this on Irish Rail?

I would imagine so.


The card is the biggest let down of the entire transport system there, and rattling off benefits of the system doesn't get around the fact that their card *is* implemented more poorly than Leap and is absolutely woeful compared to that in other countries.

Louche Lad

munchkin_utd wrote: »

to be fair, the carnets are a great job for the metro and the fact its only about a euro per journey its as cheap as a day ticket would cost you in London(7/8 euro isnt it?) for the amount of journeys that you would make as a tourist.

getting them at a station can be a hassle, until you realise that the nearest newsagent also normally stocks them at the same price but without any queue or homeless junkies hassling you.

You can get carnets at newsagents? I never knew that - thanks, I'll give it a go once I've exhausted my current stock.

Even so, using individual tickets is a strong indicator you're a tourist so I'm always paranoid on the Paris Métro. The Paris Métro feels dodgier than any other metro system I've used - not sure why.

munchkin_utd

Louche Lad wrote: »

You can get carnets at newsagents? I never knew that - thanks, I'll give it a go once I've exhausted my current stock.

yup, at least at the gare de l'est main station they had them in that major chain of newsagents that is all over paris, Relay I think its called.

sticking with france and proving more stories of how other sytems arent as good as they seem.
The metro in Tolouse is a great piece of infrastructure but the tickets are a sham.

They have a reasonably priced day ticket (small paper one with magnetic stripe similar to in Paris) but ANY class of slight knick in it and it doesnt work.
And I amnt talking about folding it or half destroying it.
Its shocking ultra sensitive meaning that even with no visible damage you often end up jumping the gates with your valid ticket!

jameverywhere

I think the best card 'n' chip system I've used would be suica cards in Japan. They work on all the trains and subways, you can charge them up EVERYWHERE, and you can even buy things from convenience stores and even some restaurants with them.

I mean, it's nice. "crap, I forgot to bring money for lunch... oh look, I have 2000 yen on my card, I can just buy something with this"

bk

MYOB wrote: »

You can get, and top up, Leap cards in far more locations than OV cards. Where, precisely, is the "travel desk" in Dublin Airport anyway?

Not at Dublin Airport, there are only two shops in Terminal 1 and one shops in Terminal 2 where you can buy and top up Leap and these are really not obvious to tourists.

They aren't any automated machines where you can buy or top up Leap in Dublin Airport.

There are lots of OV top-up card machines in Amsterdam airport.

The "Travel desk" at Dublin airport are the CIE desk and the Discover Ireland center. Ironically neither sell or top up leap card or allow you to return the card for a refund. Something most tourists would expect you could do at such places and something you can do at the equivalent desks in Amsterdam airport.

The story is the same at our train stations (Connolly, Hueston, etc.) can't buy or top-up leap card at any of the automated ticket machines and you can't buy or top-up leap or get refunds for our leap cards at the ticket desks!!

You can do all that at Hollands train stations with OV card.

It must be massively confusing using leap for tourists here. You complain that it isn't obvious how to top-up OV card. But just imagine for a moment being a tourist in Huestion trying to top-up leap. I'd bet you would:

1) Go to the automated ticket machines to try to top it up and fail
2) Go to the ticket desk and fail (hopefully at the ticket desk they point you to easons)
3) Finally you top up at easons.

Yuck!!!

Leap is a massive disaster and mess for locals, never mind tourists.

MYOB wrote: »

A days tram or bus travel that doesn't come within transfer times adds up to a LOT more than a 24 hour ticket. People moan about the lack of capping here yet its being defended now...

I use to be a big promoter of capping and reduced transfers. But then I had never thought of or experienced Amsterdams system. Now that I have, I would prefer it over London style daily capping.

Again, if you are going to be using public transport a lot, you should have bought the daily unlimited travel OV cards, rather then the OV e-purse.

OV e-purse is really only for locals who are making two or three trips a day. A typical daily commute in other words. If a local thinks they are going to make more trips in a particular day, they can purchase a day pass for that day online and it will be added to their OV card. I admit it would be better if the OV card automatically capped at the daily pass rate, but it really isn't a big deal. Not for locals anyway.

MYOB wrote: »

Not made clear anywhere.

http://www.ov-chipkaart.nl/reizen/tarieven/?taal=en

MYOB wrote: »

Except 90% of the site in "English" is, in fact, in Dutch. Try navigating around it.

I have, been all over it, I would say about 50%. But then what percentage of the Leap card site is in Dutch?

MYOB wrote: »

If you apply and wait for a 'personalised' card, rather than just buying the *only* type of card and registering it.

You can buy and apply many short ticket types (e.g. train tickets, 1 - 7 day passes, etc.) to the anonymous cards from the ticket machines.

Obviously student, oap, monthly tickets require the personalised card, just as they will with Leap in Ireland when it eventually get the same features.

MYOB wrote: »

The card is the biggest let down of the entire transport system there, and rattling off benefits of the system doesn't get around the fact that their card *is* implemented more poorly than Leap and is absolutely woeful compared to that in other countries.

No again, as a tourist you just bought the wrong card, you should have bought a daily pass.

You are really fooling yourself if you think Leap is better then OV card for tourists.

I admit OV card could be better explained to tourists on their website and tourists should be more strongly pointed at daily passes. Wikitravel does a much better job at explaining it to tourists:

http://wikitravel.org/en/Netherlands#Get_around

Which card you should choose, depends on how often and how long you are in the Netherlands and how often you use public transport. If you are likely to use the bus/tram/metro three times or more per year, it usually pays to get an anonymous card, rather than buy a disposable one for every trip. If you are likely to do a lot of travelling in a relatively short time, you could opt for a disposable one-day or multi-day card.

The problem you are suffering from and I think the designers of OV card also suffer from is the lack of ability to put themselves in someone elses shoes. You lack the ability to think what OV card must be like for locals there and you lack the ability to realise how horrible leap card is for tourists here. Just like the designers of OV card did a brilliant job designing the system for locals (which they themselves are) but didn't do such a great job supplying information to tourists as they aren't one themselves.

When I was in Holland, I tried to look at OV card as if I was a local and what I saw is a system that is almost perfect for locals and light years better then leap card is for locals here in Ireland.

Similarly here in Ireland I try to put myself in the shoes of a tourist and I see that Leap card is horrendously awful for tourists.

BTW again I find oyster card is much more confusing and complicated then OV card for tourists.

Both systems can be improved for tourists, but far less needs to be done for OV card:

1) Translate 100% of the OV card site to English
2) Have a better tourist information page, that does a stronger job advising irregular tourists to purchase daily passes and advising OV card e-purse only for regular visitors.

OV card now fixed for tourists, but Leap needs:

1) Sell, top-up and refund leap cards at all irish rail ticket desks.
2) Sell, top-up and refund leap cards at the CIE and tourist information desks at Dublin airport.
3) Sell, top-up and refund leap cards at all the other tourist and ticket desks, like in town, busaras, etc.
4) Give refunds at Dublin Bus on O'Connell St.
5) Sell and top-up leap cards at all Irish Rail automated vending machines.
6) Put leap card top-up and vending machines at multiple locations in Dublin airport, in particular the Dublin Bus stops, but also inside the terminals.
7) Put a few more vending machines at busy locations like O'Connell St, Westmoreland St, etc.
8) Fix the leap card on bus experience, change it to tag-on and tag-off. Telling the driver your destination is a uniquely Irish phenomenon and can be very difficult for tourists to understand and communicate due to language barriers. Dublin bus is a very tourist unfriendly system. Never mind the bloody stage system, which drivers don't understand, never mind tourists.
9) Multi-operator daily capping.

Now Leap will be as good as OV card.

L1011

bk wrote: »

Not at Dublin Airport, there are only two shops in Terminal 1 and one shops in Terminal 2 where you can buy and top up Leap and these are really not obvious to tourists.

If a tourist knows that a decent % of shops sell them; they'll know where to get them. Try finding a shop in Amsterdam that sells/loads OV cards without knowing specifically where they are. Whereas nearly everywhere had Strippen tickets in their tills.

bk wrote: »

There are lots of OV top-up card machines in Amsterdam airport.

Where? There isn't a single one labelled in the station hall.

bk wrote: »

1) Go to the automated ticket machines to try to top it up and fail

This has to be - and quite importantly WILL be - fixed.

bk wrote: »

Again, if you are going to be using public transport a lot, you should have bought the daily unlimited travel OV cards, rather then the OV e-purse.

I was there for more than one day. On certain days I made maybe one return tram journey, on others I made repeated journeys. This is where a system that supports capping is required - as otherwise I'd need to buy day tickets the days I needed them and either have the e-purse card or waste money on the days I didn't.

bk wrote: »

I have, been all over it, I would say about 50%. But then what percentage of the Leap card site is in Dutch?

Better to not pretend your site supports something than to claim and fail.

bk wrote: »

No again, as a tourist you just bought the wrong card, you should have bought a daily pass.

I spend about 10+ days in the Netherlands a year, a daily pass isn't much use unless I know what I'm going to be doing on a given day and I'm still going to need the e-purse otherwise.

Except its a very, very poor e-purse with ridiculous preload limits for short train journeys and a chronically awkward way to load it for a system that's meant to be mature.

bk wrote: »

You are really fooling yourself if you think Leap is better then OV card for tourists.

You're the one trying to desperately explain away its failings, not me.

bk wrote: »

BTW again I find oyster card is much more confusing and complicated then OV card for tourists.

Buy, top up, pay the max you would have paid on travelcards. What's complicated there? The confusing bit is the blue/purple/whatever colour they actually are bumps for showing that you're avoiding Zone 1 which isn't really relevant to tourists - as they're likely to be *in* Zone 1 or going there.

bk wrote: »

Both systems can be improved for tourists, but far less needs to be done for OV card:

The OV system needs improvements for far more than just tourists. I would imagine locals that don't commute by public transport every day find it just as infuriating to deal with extremely limited and unclear topup points and no capping, for instance.

bk wrote: »

Now Leap will be as good as OV card.

Let me know when OV is as good as Leap, first.

Leap, which is only recently introduced and being done by an agency that everyone blasts as incompetent, is already a more mature system realistically - ridiculous excuses aside. When they sort out the Irish Rail ticket machines issue it WILL be a more mature system all over.

The bus fare issue just needs the NTA to force a flat Leap fare. No tagging off, sorted.

munchkin_utd

why would a tourist (like myself when knocking about Dublin) want a leap card?
It holds cash.
But so does my wallet, and the cash in it doesnt require me to beg off the transport company to have it back if not used on their services!

till the cash fares are insanely high compared to leap card journeys or day tickets, cash is king for tourists if you ask me!

L1011

munchkin_utd wrote: »

why would a tourist (like myself when knocking about Dublin) want a leap card?
It holds cash.
But so does my wallet, and the cash in it doesnt require me to beg off the transport company to have it back if not used on their services!

till the cash fares are insanely high compared to leap card journeys or day tickets, cash is king for tourists if you ask me!

the cash fares in Amsterdam for single journeys are VERY high compared to OV; ditto London to Oyster (actually far far worse in London)

There's some Leap fares which are 40% or so lower than cash, but only a few.

bk

I'm sorry MYOB, you are obviously just blind to it, no way that Leap card is better then OV card, not even close, not even in the same league.

There is probably no point in arguing with you. You have obviously made up your mind. I have gone into excruciating detail as why OV card is better and how both OV card and leap card can be improved, but you just choose to ignore it.

You have already been told by someone living there that the system works very well for locals with little complaints, but you choose to ignore that post too.

A few final points, it isn't obvious on the website (the one real complaint), but you can buy and top-up (including with credit card) OV cards at most shops (Tabacs), newsagents and supermarkets, the same places that had the old strippenkarts, just like with Leap.

You can avoid topping up OV card with €20 at the airport, by simply buying a separate paper train ticket if that is the only train journey you are going to take. I find it laughable that your complaint about the train journeys is that they are so cheap, way cheaper then Ireland and that you are "forced" to top-up by €20 if you use the train. I'd love to have that problem in Ireland. €20 to Cork on the train and being able to use my leap card, sounds like public transport heaven to me.

Really OV card is a very good system, the only complaint really is the lack of a fully translated website which would have explained and solved most of the issues you had.

So in summary, to keep it nice and simple, if you do visit Amsterdam on a regular basis, then:

1) Buy an OV card at the airport from the vending machines or ticket office and stick €20 on it.
2) When your credit runs low, top-up the card at any shop or supermarket.
3) After 5 years, get a free replacement card at the ticket desk in the airport.

That is pretty much it, simple really.

L1011

You're continuing to ignore or dismiss with a hand-wave every single issue I raise; and try and defend flaws by changing the subject to things which are outside the realm of the payment system - fares, basically. You've done it again in that last post.

Clearly, the system with all its limitations, quirks and flaws works for you.

It doesn't work for me and I don't see how it can work for anyone other than a day to day commuter who can register a card - despite the entire transport system being reworked to expect you to use it.

bk

MYOB wrote: »

You're continuing to ignore or dismiss with a hand-wave every single issue I raise;

And you continue to dismiss the awful problems with Leap.

Ok, lets break down your issues one by one, with quotes from your post:

To get an "anonymous" card, you have to pay €7.50, which doesn't sound too bad, till you realise its completely empty with no reserve credit.

Not true, it comes with a €4 reserve.

Its not entirely obvious WHERE to buy one at that.

Can be bought at must shops and supermarkets, just like leap card here. Can also be bought from most vending machines and travel ticket desks, unlike leap card here.

The card also expires after a time, the one I got is a bit over 5 years so I'd imagine it depends on the age of the stock where you get it.

Expires after 5 years, due to the materials in the card degrading and requiring replacement. Leap card no different.

Can't tell if you have to pay again for a new one.

You don't., says it in English on the website.

a lot of the places that take card only seem to take Chipknip which is a Dutch-specific system.

A fair criticism, but it only applies to the GVB ticket machines. The NS ticket machines take Maestro and credit card and also pretty much any of thousands of shops and supermarkets will top up the card for you.

But despite the fact its been deployed for ages; they also don't have capping, or any proper concept of a return journey.

No e-purse system ever has the concept of a return journey, not OV, Leap or Oyster. Usually the cost of two singles on e-purse is less then a cash return journey.

Capping would be nice, but you can self cap by buying daily passes and the per km setup and very cheap prices is far superior to anything in the UK or Ireland.

Also, officially you're meant to have €4 on the card to be allowed use a tram and €20 to be allowed use a train - this despite the tram fares starting at €0.85 and train journies being very cheap (€3.80 to get to the airport).

€4 is the maximum fare on the tram, €20 on the train (wow wish we had this). When you tag-on the maximum fare is deducted and the balance is returned when you tag-off. Simple. Leap card works in exactly the same way, so I can't see your criticism here? And I can't see any other way you could do this.

So now please tell me which issue have I not dealt with adequately?

The only real criticism is the lack of fully translated information on the OV website. However all this info can be found on a few travel sites such as wikitravel.

Why are you ignoring the major problems that exist with Leap card?

L1011

bk wrote: »

And you continue to dismiss the awful problems with Leap.

A 6 month old system which is already easier to use.

bk wrote: »

Not true, it comes with a €4 reserve.

Documentation available from NS at Centraal claims it doesn't. It would appear that this documentation is incorrect, useful eh.

bk wrote: »

Can be bought at must shops and supermarkets, just like leap card here. Can also be bought from most vending machines and travel ticket desks, unlike leap card here.

Not a single shop I tried could do a cash topup. One had a machine that did it, and required Chipknip. Even the same shops I bought Strippen in didn't do it.

bk wrote: »

You don't., says it in English on the website.

The website isn't available on the ticket machines. Actually, nothing on the machines at all states that they expire

bk wrote: »

Capping would be nice, but you can self cap by buying daily passes and the per km setup and very cheap prices is far superior to anything in the UK or Ireland.

What is the point of having an epurse card if you have to buy other tickets? Capping is essential, and we *are* getting it on Leap.

Prices are irrelevant.

bk wrote: »

€4 is the maximum fare on the tram, €20 on the train (wow wish we had this). When you tag-on the maximum fare is deducted and the balance is returned when you tag-off. Simple. Leap card works in exactly the same way, so I can't see your criticism here? And I can't see any other way you could do this.

Ensure the reserve credit system supports all possible fares. Or require higher train fares to be loaded on to the card manually, if they're all as cheap as you keep insisting.

Again, the prices are irrelevant. "But its so cheap!" doesn't defend failings, if if did I'd fly Ryanair.

bk wrote: »

So now please tell me which issue have I not dealt with adequately?

Capping is handwaved away. €20 balance to do a €3.80 fare is handwaved away. Lack of ticket machines is handwaved away...

Your defence of the quite poor OV system is that it suits daily commuters. So do paper season tickets - why spend huge sums implementing a smartcard system that only serves an already served market properly and is brutal for everyone else?

bk wrote: »

The only real criticism is the lack of fully translated information on the OV website. However all this info can be found on a few travel sites such as wikitravel.

That wasn't even a major criticism. I can read enough Dutch to get by,

bk wrote: »

Why are you ignoring the major problems that exist with Leap card?

Because either those problems are either identical or worse on OV; or are in the process of being fixed.

Its already easier to get and topup a Leap card; it will become even easier again. Leap is getting capping. It doesn't require a huge reserve credit for a commuter train journey.

The bulk of your criticisms of Leap are criticisms of the fare system in Dublin - different issue, different topic.

foggy_lad

MYOB wrote: »

A 6 month old system which is already easier to use.

<snip>

The bulk of your criticisms of Leap are criticisms of the fare system in Dublin - different issue, different topic.

Most of your criticisms of the OV card can be leveled at the Leap card,

There are no weekly/daily/monthly ticket add-ons available and god only knows when or if this will ever be possible,
It took a lot longer to get going and then was released without any of the promised features.
It has been plauged with overcharging problems and software issues which are not immediately brought to the attention of those being overcharged!
The principle operators are not "on the bus" with leap and do nothing to make using the leap card easy for customers!
The leap card is only available in a small number of shops and Cards are not available at train stations.
If overcharged on a bus You must go all the way into Dublin bus HQ to claim your refund!(This must surely be to discourage people from claiming refunds, why else would they do it this way?)

The leap card so far is a failure as it has not delivered on functionality and ease of use across the main transport operators, It has also not delivere4d on any of the promised "Coming Soon" elements and possibly never will!

n97 mini

MYOB wrote: »

A 6 month old system which is already easier to use.

But they still haven't sorted out even the most basic problems, like the 90 minute limit to rail journeys.

How long does it take to decide the limit should be (say) 180 minutes and then someone else to change the relevant assignment statements or xml config files from 90 to 180.

markpb

foggy_lad wrote: »

The leap card so far is a failure as it has not delivered on functionality and ease of use across the main transport operators, It has also not delivere4d on any of the promised "Coming Soon" elements and possibly never will!

I know you seem to enjoy sitting here criticising the Leap card and making judgements on it without having any knowledge beyond what you read here but this takes the biscuit. What makes you think that it hasn't delivered what was promised - show me a list of features promised (and I mean promised, not guessed about here). What makes you think it won't ever deliver on them? Do you have some knowledge of the project that the rest of us should know about?

Just to put your post in context, have a look at Rollout of Oyster. I'll even pull out the relevant parts for you:

* Cards issued to the public for annual and monthly tickets (2003)
* PAYG launched on London Underground, DLR (January 2004)
* Payg on buses (May 2004)
* Daily price capping (February 2005)
* Automatic top-up (September 2005)

Leap has been available to the public for 4 months and you're already condemning it even though there's no proof that it's rollout will be any slower than Londons.

bk

markpb wrote: »

Leap has been available to the public for 4 months and you're already condemning it even though there's no proof that it's rollout will be any slower than Londons.

First point, integrated ticketing has been in development here for 12 years, it isn't a 4 - 6 month project like some here claim.

Second point, Oyster was one of the first systems of it's type in the world (along with Octopus) and it was the first introduction of many of these systems and technologies.

Leap on the other comes after well over 50 other countries have already developed similar systems and is pretty much off the shelf technology.

markpb

bk wrote: »

First point, integrated ticketing has been in development here for 12 years, it isn't a 4 - 6 month project like some here claim.

Oyster was in development for years before the public saw it too - I'm not defending the time it took to go live, I'm saying that scaremongering and moaning that nothing else will be delivered when it's barely in production is childish.

Leap on the other comes after well over 50 other countries have already developed similar systems and is pretty much off the shelf technology.

Rightly or wrongly, the system was developed more or less from scratch.

Victor

Top-ups are coming to Irish Rail TVMs this month.

munchkin_utd wrote: »

till the cash fares are insanely high compared to leap card journeys or day tickets, cash is king for tourists if you ask me!

Depending on the number of journeys they intend to make, multi-day tickets are likely to be better.

carlmango11

Somewhat irrelevant but I need somewhere to vent and a new thread is a bit much.

Was in DART station today.
"Oh I'll top up my Leap card"
*scans card*
"CARD UNREADABLE, SEEK ASSISTENCE"

yes. misspelled. ****ing misspelled. I assume on every machine. In every station. In the whole city.

Oh and turns out you can't top up a Leap card with those machines. EDIT: Just read the post above. Coming soon.

Honestly the difference between Veolia and Irish Rail is astounding; no wonder the former makes a profit. Everything about Irish Rail just reeks of apathy, ineptitude and unprofessionalism. They provide a totally substandard service and I'm convinced if Veolia ran the same network it would be like a totally different system.

Even comparing the maps of the two systems, the websites, the mobile apps (or app: Veolia), the implementation of Leap, the presentation of printed public information, the updates you get from each, the stops/stations.

Veolia is French, Irish Rail, Dublin Bus and Bus Eireann are Irish. Definitely a correlation there.

Victor

carlmango11 wrote: »

Veolia is French, Irish Rail, Dublin Bus and Bus Eireann are Irish. Definitely a correlation there.

And the person who speeled it "ASSISTENCE" is quite possibly German.

carlmango11

Victor wrote: »

And the person who speeled it "ASSISTENCE" is quite possibly German.

I don't follow?

goingnowhere

Original equipment provider for Irish Rail and Luas is German http://www.scheidt-bachmann.de/en/

n97 mini

Assistence isn't a German word. It's a misspelled English word, and one of the snags that should have been picked up on in QA, before it was let out the door.

Iwannahurl

Melbourne has introduced the Myki smartcard ticketless system to replace the old Metcard.

http://www.myki.com.au

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myki

I have had no experience of Leap to date, but as a visitor to Melbourne I have had no problems with Myki, apart from doubt about whether forgetting to "touch off" on trams makes any difference to the fare deducted. I haven't tried it on trains or buses.

There have been lots of problems with the roll-out of Myki, including cost and scheduling over-runs. There are frequent complaints from commuters about the system, and regular reports in the local press about serious operational problems in the switchover from Metcard, including dangerous peak-time crushing at some stations, which resulted in the opening of barriers for safety reasons.

Mark200

bk wrote: »

Leap on the other comes after well over 50 other countries have already developed similar systems and is pretty much off the shelf technology.

Em what do you mean off the shelf? I'd imagine that the software would have to be unique in every country since every country has a unique transport system

bk

Mark200 wrote: »

bk wrote: »

Leap on the other comes after well over 50 other countries have already developed similar systems and is pretty much off the shelf technology.

Em what do you mean off the shelf? I'd imagine that the software would have to be unique in every country since every country has a unique transport system

Not really many if not most of the elements are off the shelf standardised:

- the NFC cards follow an ISP standard
- the card readers follow the same ISP standard

As for the backend software, while of course they would need to be modifications specific to Ireland, there is absolutely no way they started from scratch.

Ticketing is ticketing, there aren't tht many variety of ways to sell and process transport tickets. Certainly the laid and dart tag on an off would be very standard across all such systems. Only Dublin buses stage system is a little unusual an even at that it isn't that different, other countries would have it too.

From what I've read the whole system is built on the Singapore system, just modified for Dublin.

Solair

carlmango11 wrote: »

Somewhat irrelevant but I need somewhere to vent and a new thread is a bit much.

Was in DART station today.
"Oh I'll top up my Leap card"
*scans card*
"CARD UNREADABLE, SEEK ASSISTENCE"

yes. misspelled. ****ing misspelled. I assume on every machine. In every station. In the whole city.

Oh and turns out you can't top up a Leap card with those machines. EDIT: Just read the post above. Coming soon.

Honestly the difference between Veolia and Irish Rail is astounding; no wonder the former makes a profit. Everything about Irish Rail just reeks of apathy, ineptitude and unprofessionalism. They provide a totally substandard service and I'm convinced if Veolia ran the same network it would be like a totally different system.

Even comparing the maps of the two systems, the websites, the mobile apps (or app: Veolia), the implementation of Leap, the presentation of printed public information, the updates you get from each, the stops/stations.

Veolia is French, Irish Rail, Dublin Bus and Bus Eireann are Irish. Definitely a correlation there.

Veolia is a private company. Irish Rail's a bloated bad example of a public sector monopolist.

SNCF and RATP (RAT Pee) are french equivalents of Irish Rail and they can be equally dire at times.

It's not about nationality, it's about corporate governance, structure, customer-focus, accountability and management.

WillieFlynn

Louche Lad wrote: »

And before you say "yes it does, it's got the Navigo", the problem with the Navigo is you have to put a minimum of a weekly pass on it so it's useless for millions of people like myself who only use the Métro for one or two days at a time.

Another problem is that it is for a calendar week only, rather than 7 days.

However the Navigo does have one advantage over leap card, the free bikes subscription can be loaded on to it.

One problem visitors will find in France, is that some ticket machines will only accept French CB and no foreign cards.

Mark200

bk wrote: »

Not really many if not most of the elements are off the shelf standardised:

- the NFC cards follow an ISP standard
- the card readers follow the same ISP standard

As for the backend software, while of course they would need to be modifications specific to Ireland, there is absolutely no way they started from scratch.

Ticketing is ticketing, there aren't tht many variety of ways to sell and process transport tickets. Certainly the laid and dart tag on an off would be very standard across all such systems. Only Dublin buses stage system is a little unusual an even at that it isn't that different, other countries would have it too.

From what I've read the whole system is built on the Singapore system, just modified for Dublin.

The cards and card readers would be by far the easiest part of the project. It's hard to underestimate how complex software can be. It's not just taking software from elsewhere and making a few simple modifications.

bk

Mark200 wrote: »

The cards and card readers would be by far the easiest part of the project. It's hard to underestimate how complex software can be. It's not just taking software from elsewhere and making a few simple modifications.

I know, I'm a senior software engineer with 10 years under my belt.

However it in no way comes close to the complexity Oyster card represented 10 years ago, when no standards existed for the cards and readers or any software at all to start from.

While not trivial, neither is it a rocket science project either.

How many years have the NTA been trying to build a journey planner, and now we have getthere.ie and hittheroad.ie, excellent sites done by individuals.

Unfortunately these sort of government projects are simply cash sink holes for consulatants who like to try and make it harder then it really is.

markpb

bk wrote: »

However it in no way comes close to the complexity Oyster card represented 10 years ago, when no standards existed for the cards and readers or any software at all to start from.

That's neither entirely true nor relevant. If you're rolling out the entire system from scratch, there is no need for standards because you built and own the entire thing. And in any case, there have been standards around smartcards and readers for many more than ten years. They're neither new nor newly defined.

bk

markpb wrote: »

That's neither entirely true nor relevant. If you're rolling out the entire system from scratch, there is no need for standards because you built and own the entire thing. And in any case, there have been standards around smartcards and readers for many more than ten years. They're neither new nor newly defined.

It is irrelevant that Leap has taken more then 10 years, €50 million and is still a complete, almost unusable mess.

IngazZagni

I lived in the Netherlands for about 3 months last year and I hated the ov-chipkaart system. It was such a hassle to use, top up etc.

I actually think the Leap card is better although still far from perfect. It's surprising really because when you think of the Dutch you think of efficiency but not with the ov-chipkaart system. I was talking to many locals about it and most agreed that it has many flaws and can be a hassle to use sometimes.

bk

Some more ridiculous experiences with Leap.

Couldn't tag-off at Sandycove and Glasthule Dart station last night as all three smart card readers weren't working.

Of course the Irish Rail Ticket Vending Machines can't help as they still aren't compatible with LEAP!! and of course the guy in the ticket office can't do a thing as they don't have leap card readers!!

Genius isn't it, it almost feels like Irish Rail don't want smart cards and leap.

It is a regular occurrence (as in a few times a week) for the card reader at the main gate to be not working, which is a pain as the two other readers are out of the way around the sides of the station.

Another crazy Leap experience was on the bus, when I put and help my leap card on the card reader, the driver leans over, puts his left hand on the card to hold it in place and uses his right hand to execute the fair!!

Obviously this driver has experienced many misplaced and misread leap cards. But this whole process is terribly slow compared to even paying by cash.

Dravokivich

bk wrote: »

Some more ridiculous experiences with Leap.

Couldn't tag-off at Sandycove and Glasthule Dart station last night as all three smart card readers weren't working.

Of course the Irish Rail Ticket Vending Machines can't help as they still aren't compatible with LEAP!! and of course the guy in the ticket office can't do a thing as they don't have leap card readers!!

Genius isn't it, it almost feels like Irish Rail don't want smart cards and leap.

It is a regular occurrence (as in a few times a week) for the card reader at the main gate to be not working, which is a pain as the two other readers are out of the way around the sides of the station.

Ahm... if the card reader isn't going to work it will also affect Irish Rails smartcard. but sure, lump it as a leap problem because you can't use a TVM, which wouldn't change anything in the instance you had anyway...

bk wrote: »

Another crazy Leap experience was on the bus, when I put and help my leap card on the card reader, the driver leans over, puts his left hand on the card to hold it in place and uses his right hand to execute the fair!!

Obviously this driver has experienced many misplaced and misread leap cards. But this whole process is terribly slow compared to even paying by cash.

Complain about ignorant bus drivers... now complain because you saw 1 making an effort?

though crowd...

bk

Dravokivich wrote: »

Ahm... if the card reader isn't going to work it will also affect Irish Rails smartcard.

Hmm, lets look at what I wrote:

Genius isn't it, it almost feels like Irish Rail don't want smart cards and leap.

Note the bold section.

Dravokivich wrote: »

but sure, lump it as a leap problem because you can't use a TVM, which wouldn't change anything in the instance you had anyway...

Will it not be possible to tag-off using the Irish Rail TVM's when they are updated with LEAP support.

I certainly hope so, if not then it is a feature that should certainly be added, given how often the readers don't work. No harm in having more readers for tagging-off.

Also the ticket desks should really have leap card readers that would allow you to purchase leap cards, top them up, check the balance and tag people off with the assistance of the ticket seller. It is crazy that they pay a relatively expensive cost of having a ticket seller at a station, who can't sell one of the most popular tickets now available.

It really makes no sense and is inexcusable.

Dravokivich wrote: »

Complain about ignorant bus drivers... now complain because you saw 1 making an effort?

No, you misread my post again. I have NO complaints about drivers, they are making great efforts to try and make a broken ticket system work.

The reason I mentioned this was to point out how bad the Leap card experience is on Dublin Bus. Not due to any fault of the drivers, but due to management decisions by the NTA, Dept of Transport and Dublin Bus.

Dublin Bus desperately needs to move to a tag-on/tag-off system immediately at the minimum.

BenShermin

I wont bother getting into reasons why I think the Netherlands railway system is one of the most tourist unfriendly railways I've used in Western Europe. They even make Irish Rail look good imo.

Rather I'll ask peoples help here, unfortunately I have to use the system again next week:rolleyes:. I'm trying to price a ticket from Breda to Hoek van Holland and instead of the NL Rail website giving me information on cash fares it only gives info on OV-Chipkaart fares! Does anyone know if these are the same fares as the ones bought from TVMs on the station?