Waiting for a Kayak

shotgunmcos

So, this weekend will be my first time sitting in a Kayak. Its a sit on 2 man thingy that I'm assured is like rowing a bath tub rather than a racing shell. I care not, its just a bit of fun.

Any tips for manoevering the thing efficiently greatly appreciated, however my question is around the time you have to wait for your partner or vice versa.

Lets say someone was waiting for a minute until you show up and you both hop into the Kayak. Obviously you both finish the Kayak section together but what then if you then sprint ahead and coss the line 5 seconds ahead of him? Have you beaten him by 5 seconds or is his wait time taken into account and he actually beats you by 55 seconds?

Enduro

That depends on how the race times things! You'd have to ask race organisers.

nerraw1111

I'm crap at kayaking so can't help there.

Re what happens at transition. Depends on the race. Gaelforce, the first 30 or so all had to use a single kayak.

After that, people doubled up, and given the numbers, eventually people were timed out while they waited.

Other races, it seems tough **** if you get there and there is no one to partner with. Best off asking the organisers. I must ask myself in relation to a race coming up.

It's only really an issue for the top 10, as after that, you'll easily pick up a partner.

hardCopy

The only tip I ever got was to put the big man in the back.

The timing would depend on the race, at Gaelforce you're clock stops while waiting for a Kayak, this is because there aren't always enough kayaks to go around.

Elites must start in the first wave to be eligible for prizes and AFAIK there are single kayaks all round in the first wave.

Enduro

hardCopy wrote: »

The only tip I ever got was to put the big man in the back.

The opposite if you were going into a strong headwind. Think about the heavier end being the pivot point, and the effect of slight direction changes into a headwind and how the boat would react, depending on where it pivots.

In general put the one who knows how to steer the boat in the back, irrespective of size, if only one knows what they're doing.

KentuckyPete

shotgun, like you I spent a lot of time in rowing. The same principles apply in the canoe - it's just not as efficient. I assume you'll have done some work in pairs or sculls so you'll know about steering.

1. Put the other guy in front. That way you can make certain you're both paddling in time. Don't be afraid to call the strokes if he's completely out of whack - tell him you've rowed a fair bit

2. Put the other guy in front. That way you can easily correct steering errors - a wide shallow sweep stroke on the side you want to steer away from will quickly right the boat. You may even have to back on one side if the front lad is pure dire

3. Let the boat run (where have you heard that before?;)). Encourage partner in this regard. Don't lean out massively to take strokes as unlike a shell, you're both leaning the same way.

4. Clean catch and finish

TJGer

Shotgun, for Sunday you get timed in and out of the kayak transition. Clock stops until you get your kayak and cross the mat to begin that leg.

Dutchie

Some basic tips.
Sit up straight. Your back is your strongest set of muscles, so use it to rotate around every stroke.
Keep your arms high (eye level) Place the blade as close to the boat as possible (catch). Keep the paddles vertical, drive off the footplate with your foot. Rotate around the stroke keeping you shoulders square (Pull). Rotate the blade past your hip, don't force the exit of the blade.
And then repeat. Easy!

Enduro

Dutchie wrote: »

Some basic tips.
Sit up straight. Your back is your strongest set of muscles, so use it to rotate around every stroke.
Keep your arms high (eye level) Place the blade as close to the boat as possible (catch). Keep the paddles vertical, drive off the footplate with your foot. Rotate around the stroke keeping you shoulders square (Pull). Rotate the blade past your hip, don't force the exit of the blade.
And then repeat. Easy!

Jeeze... you make it sound so easy Great post.

One other tip I can think of.. don't try to pull the paddle through the water. Most people if left to their own devices seem to do that (I certainly did). As Dutchie says, the power is generated from your feet and transmitted via your body rotation through to the paddle blades. The blade should be anchored in the water and you rotate past it. Think of having a poll planted in the water and rotating past it.

shotgunmcos

So spoke to the RD last night and turns out that there is a timeout section before the Kayak which is good. There will also be a choice of single or double Kayaks which is good too??

Dutchie and KP thanks for the tips. Makes sense re: fulcrum of the blade, catch, finish etc...

So would you guys prefer a single or double Kayak? I'd imagine a good double is faster than good single but good Kayaker will beat most of the thrown together doubles on the water?

Enduro

If they are both S(h)it-on-tops, then the double every time. You'd want to be horrendously unlucky with your paddle partner to be disadvantaged in a double.

Peterx

Also make full use of the time out.

Get recovered, take on food and drink, cast flirtatious glances at good kayakers arriving, that sort of thing.

jeffontour

Enduro wrote: »

You'd want to be horrendously unlucky with your paddle partner to be disadvantaged in a double.

I once got in with a guy who whacked me across the head about 5 times during the WAR paddle. You'd be surprised how unlucky you can be....

nerraw1111

I got a brutal partner once. Which made two brutal kayakers. I think I lost about five minutes as a result.

There's a race coming up in 2 weeks where you're not timed out. Must wait for a partner. Which is a bit of a pain if you happen to be the odd person arriving there.

Presumably, you'll try and hook up with someone on the bike before then?

Peterx

nerraw1111 wrote: »

I got a brutal partner once. Which made to brutal kayakers. I think I lost about five minutes as a result.

There's a race coming up in 2 weeks where you're not timed out. Must wait for a partner. Which is a bit of a pain if you happen to be the odd person arriving there.

Presumably, you'll try and hook up with someone on the bike before then?

Or are you allowed bring your own kayak instead of waiting?

nerraw1111

Peterx wrote: »

Or are you allowed bring your own kayak instead of waiting?

Yeah you can bring your own kayak. That's appears to be the best option, even over two people on the sit ons. Not an option for me alas. I'd be hoping to arrive at the kayaks near the front end, would piss me off having to wait. Could be best to either sit up on the bike and wait rather than wasting energy

shotgunmcos

nerraw1111 wrote: »

Presumably, you'll try and hook up with someone on the bike before then?

Yeah could do. There is a 10k trail run after the first bike so I can suss out the runners as they scoot off and try and chase them down on the 2nd bike before the kayak. There is a bike again after the Kayak. There is also a short run from the bike to Kayak and vice versa so it hardly worth changing into running shoes for that. I presume you are allowed to Kayak barefoot?

20-30 secs of a difference between someone clipping in and someone who doesn't. With at least 4 transitions I'm already giving up 1-2 minutes to any of the AR lads.

There is a bike after the Kayak too with a 800m run off it for a finish. I can see myself doing this run barefoot as there is no point in wasting time changing shoes for that!!

Dutchie

Enduro wrote: »

Jeeze... you make it sound so easy Great post.

One other tip I can think of.. don't try to pull the paddle through the water. Most people if left to their own devices seem to do that (I certainly did). As Dutchie says, the power is generated from your feet and transmitted via your body rotation through to the paddle blades. The blade should be anchored in the water and you rotate past it. Think of having a poll planted in the water and rotating past it.

Not to get too technical, unless you are using a 'winged' type paddle, you will always pull the blade past the boat. A winged type blade, when properly used will actually exit the water ahead of where it was entered. A wing type blade acts like a solid pole stuck in the water with you pulling yourself past it!

What i dont understand is why more competitors dont train in fast kayaks for the adventure races. Whats the point of having a strong bike and run leg and then have all of your good work undone by having to wait for somebody at the kayak section.

Enduro

Dutchie wrote: »

What i dont understand is why more competitors dont train in fast kayaks for the adventure races. Whats the point of having a strong bike and run leg and then have all of your good work undone by having to wait for somebody at the kayak section.

Ah, but most of the adventure races I know (myself included) do train in fast(er) kayaks (Sea kayaks generally), and with wings too.

I don't know what race shotgunmcos is doing, but I'm guessing its a multisports race with a very short kayak section. In fairness to competitors in these kind of races, there's not a lot of time to be gained and lost in the kayak sections of these races, so there isn't a huge amount to be gained by putting in lots of training hours of honing technique and efficiency, and if I was coaching someone for one of those races I would just bring them up to a level of being able to move the boat steadily forward in a straight line. beyond that the training hours involved could probably be more effectively used to to increase speed in cycling and running.

In adventure races the kayak legs are usually much longer (one nice 70km-ish river section in the last one I did), so there is a huge amount to be gained and lost in the kayak legs themselves, as well as a massive gain to be made in overall race speed by being more comfortable and efficient. But that's a whole other way off topic discussion. (The biggest single gain I made by training for kayaking was going from tolerating it to loving it)

Enduro

jeffontour wrote: »

I once got in with a guy who whacked me across the head about 5 times during the WAR paddle. You'd be surprised how unlucky you can be....

I'd probably do the same if you were in my boat Seriosly though, that Noonan fella is a fecker for the violence all the same.

So the top tip there for the lad in front is... wear your cycle helmet on the kayak stage, even if its not mandatory

shotgunmcos

Enduro wrote: »

I don't know what race shotgunmcos is doing, but I'm guessing its a multisports race with a very short kayak section.

Correct - just 700m paddle within a 'short' 2.5-3.5 hour race

Enduro do you clip in or use caged pedals on your road bike for short races (if you do them)?

What event was it that had a 70km paddle, thats epic! :eek:

Enduro wrote: »

(The biggest single gain I made by training for kayaking was going from tolerating it to loving it)

For all the newbie triheads or aspiring tri heads, this is exactly the case for swimming too

eminems ma

I'm not 100% sure which race you are talking about but i've made a blog on one coming up soon which allows comments to be posted below. It might help people who like me don't know what they are getting into and have questions about it. You don't have to leave an email address. http://eminemsma.wordpress.com/2012/04/04/war-wicklow-adventure-race-glendalough/

nerraw1111

Be interesting to hear what your thoughts are on cages v clip in Shotgun given that you’re pretty handy on the bike and into your stats/measure progress in seconds.
When the topic has come up in the past, the consensus was that if you’ve to switch from running shoes to bike more than once, stick with the cages.
I’ve one coming up where it involves a bike after mountain run, then kayak, back on the bike, and then a 3km run to finish. Half thinking of using SPDs. Leave the trails shoes in transition, barefoot in the kayak and, I’ll have to check if its allowed, leave another pair of trainers in the last transition, for the 3km run. If not, I’ll go with cages as storing the runners on the bike seems like a pain.

Enduro

nerraw1111 wrote: »

Be interesting to hear what your thoughts are on cages v clip in Shotgun given that you’re pretty handy on the bike and into your stats/measure progress in seconds.
When the topic has come up in the past, the consensus was that if you’ve to switch from running shoes to bike more than once, stick with the cages.
I’ve one coming up where it involves a bike after mountain run, then kayak, back on the bike, and then a 3km run to finish. Half thinking of using SPDs. Leave the trails shoes in transition, barefoot in the kayak and, I’ll have to check if its allowed, leave another pair of trainers in the last transition, for the 3km run. If not, I’ll go with cages as storing the runners on the bike seems like a pain.

You've covered all the main factors there anyway. For me there are a few paramaters which determine which way to go. The number of transitions versus the length of the cycle legs is one. Whether a second pair of shoes would need to be carried at any point (running or cycling) is the other.

for the first one (number of transitions), if you're really into your measurements you could work out scientifically what the optimal solution is. Work out the time loss for using clips versus clipless over the distance of the cycling legs and compare it to the cumulative time used in transitions to fully change shoes. I've never actually run the maths myself, but will definitely roughly work it through in my head. It's very dependant on each particular race course. So, for example, Achill ROAR has just one transition from run to bike and the full cycle is done in one go, so well worth changing. GFW in contrast has run->cycle->run->cycle, so the transition times are not worth it for me in that race (Also taking the nature of the cycle legs into account).

For me the awkwardness of carrying extra shoes around is a big disadvantage. So for linear type races where you're never back to the same transition I'd be much less likely to use clipless unless the cycling legs were huge. Again, ROAR has only one physical transition so its perfect for changes, as you can just leave things behind knowing you'll return to them at the end of each leg. Even if GFW had only one transition I'd still consider not changing, since its linear. In some cases, such as CLEC, where the cycling is much more significant than the running, I'd run in my SPDs (which are deliberatly relatively walking/running friendly) and ditch pure running shoes altogether. Horses for courses. The potential for disaster if you haven't properly secured your running shoes whilst cycling is another factor.

nerraw, why go barefoot in the kayak. Why not just keep your cycling shoes on? It's going to cost you time to transition to barefoot, and I can't see any advantages.

Correct - just 700m paddle within a 'short' 2.5-3.5 hour race

Then the amount of time you can gain/lose on the kayak leg will be tiny. don't put a big effort into it... use the energy on the run and cycle instead.

What event was it that had a 70km paddle, thats epic!

The race was the XPD in Tasmania last November, which was also the world championships. There's a few videos in the link showing the course etc. to some degree. I can't find a full course map at the moment to really show the paddle legs. There were a lot of interesting feature in that race, to say the least. From a paddling POV, there was great variation accross the different legs. It started with a few hours paddling at sea down the coast (each team having one SOT and one rubber-ducky!), the second paddle section had all 4 teammebers in one (2 man) rubber ducky paddling for a few hours down a lake. Then it was a switch to a pair of SOTs for more lake paddling, including a hilly 2km-ish portage. The 70km was the highlight though. A long grade 2 river paddle through wilderness on a pristine river (saw 2 sea eagles, and a few platypusses/ platypii!, amongst other things), again with one SOT and one rubber-ducky. I had great craic on the rapids in the rubber-ducky. No paddling was allowed between 7pm and 6am, and no team managed to get the whole river done without being dark-zoned (we were half an hour short of managing it).

shotgunmcos

nerraw1111 wrote: »

Be interesting to hear what your thoughts are on cages v clip in Shotgun given that you’re pretty handy on the bike and into your stats/measure progress in seconds.
When the topic has come up in the past, the consensus was that if you’ve to switch from running shoes to bike more than once, stick with the cages.
I’ve one coming up where it involves a bike after mountain run, then kayak, back on the bike, and then a 3km run to finish. Half thinking of using SPDs. Leave the trails shoes in transition, barefoot in the kayak and, I’ll have to check if its allowed, leave another pair of trainers in the last transition, for the 3km run. If not, I’ll go with cages as storing the runners on the bike seems like a pain.

Hew Nerraw111 from what I've read its more about the energy transfer. When the solid soles of teh bike shoes are clipped in to the pedal there is a greater power transfer and less tiring. Particularly with a smooth circular motion where you can bring your hamstrings in to support your quads. I don't know if there is any speed difference as I've actaully never pedalled with cages.

I used the clip in approach in my AR a few weeks ago it meant I had to change shoes twice eitehr side of the mountain run. I'd estimate I lost a minute easily to the lads with runners and cages over the 2 transitions. I stored my running shoes at transition so I didn't ave to carry them for the tough bike section. I was fairly ragged after the mountain run andhad a slow slow T2. The eventual winner came into T2 with me but was 150m up the trail by the time I got out. He put 7 minutes into me on the mountain so it didn't matter anyway.

The AR this weekend is

Bike to run to bike to kayak to bike to run. There is a short run to and from the Kayak too. I'm assuming I can kayak barefoot?

If so then its 3 transitions and getting the feet back into the bike shoes (which will stay on the bike) after the kayak. The last run is 800m so it seems hardly worth changing shoes. It would mean running in barefeet for a finish if I am racing someone.

It seems to be a case for runners and cages which would saveme having to carrythe runners in a small backpack too.

For some reason though I can't imagine feeling the same power unless I was clipped in. The 3 bike sections make up 56 of the 72 kms in the ace.

ocnoc

Re the runners + clips V just cages

I have seen some Tri bikes with double drinks holders behind the saddle.
Would you squash a runner into each of the bottle holders??
If you have quick tie laces, surely you would make back the 15-30seconds of changing shoes by using clips on the bike when climbing?

shotgunmcos

ocnoc wrote: »

Re the runners + clips V just cages

I have seen some Tri bikes with double drinks holders behind the saddle.
Would you squash a runner into each of the bottle holders??
If you have quick tie laces, surely you would make back the 15-30seconds of changing shoes by using clips on the bike when climbing?

Don't use one of those and wouldn't risk losing one on some bumpy road. Def advantage on a climb to claw back a transition

shotgunmcos

More Kayaking questions!

Ok, I survived the 5 minute kayak section on the SOT but one thing struck me at the time. My feet didn't reach the plate or part where you can push off, hence I couldn't bring my legs in for balance or power. I'm 181cm so not short? Is this normal for SOTs or was I in one too big for me?

Another race coming up where I'll likely spend a couple of hours in the Kayak. Perhaps a dumb question, but do you pee the boat?

Also in a team of 4 with 2 SOTs where does the girl sit, assuming the girl is is decent kayaker?

In cycling or swimming you can draft off the person in front of you but from my rowing days I remember its not adviseable to row in another boats water. Is this also true for Kayaks?

Edit:
@ocnoc - I saw a lad stuff his runners into one of those rear mounted double bottle cages - it didn't work out!
@nerraw111 - I went with cages last time and it was so much less hassle. While there was a lot of biking it was all on road with no major climbing so I didn't lose much ower without the SPDs. The hill run was hard and the other runs were on road so you needed runners. Having said that I recently took the MTB onto trails and cages were a nightmare. So for offroad events I'd likely stick to SPDs but on road, multiple transitions and hard running I'd go with cages and runners

ThisRegard

At 181 cms I think you're about 2 inches taller than me and I've never had an issue with push off points for my feet, maybe the kayak was a different design ? In all the ones I've used there's usually a set of platforms at different distances from the seat and I just use the ones I find more comfortable at the time.

Hanley

ThisRegard wrote: »

At 181 cms I think you're about 2 inches taller than me and I've never had an issue with push off points for my feet, maybe the kayak was a different design ? In all the ones I've used there's usually a set of platforms at different distances from the seat and I just use the ones I find more comfortable at the time.

+1 to this. I'm 5'10 with short legs and never had a problem in any of the kayaks I've been in.

lgk

shotgunmcos wrote: »

Also in a team of 4 with 2 SOTs where does the girl sit, assuming the girl is is decent kayaker?

She should go in the back, steering is way more effective from the front. The person in front should just focus on paddling.

shotgunmcos wrote: »

In cycling or swimming you can draft off the person in front of you but from my rowing days I remember its not adviseable to row in another boats water. Is this also true for Kayaks?

Like cycling and swimming, drafting is an advantage in kayaks. The surface tension of the water is reduced behind the boat, stick close behind and get a significant benefit. This is called wash hanging or wash riding in kayaking. Interesting article here.

shotgunmcos

@thisRegard - Hmmm I believe there were platforms in the SOT if I remember correctly, although they would be barely high enough to purchase your heel on? Apologies for the complete novice questions but is that standard for kayaking? How muc power do you generate from your legs in a Kayak? Or is it simply leverage?

@lgk - Cheers for that. What if she is a muh more proficient kayaker, would the her skill be employed more effectivly to steer and guide the boat from the bow end? Also would a weight difference matter much, say I out weigh her by 25kg?

nerraw1111

shotgunmcos wrote: »

@nerraw111 - I went with cages last time and it was so much less hassle. While there was a lot of biking it was all on road with no major climbing so I didn't lose much ower without the SPDs. The hill run was hard and the other runs were on road so you needed runners. Having said that I recently took the MTB onto trails and cages were a nightmare. So for offroad events I'd likely stick to SPDs but on road, multiple transitions and hard running I'd go with cages and runners

Yeah I did a MTB duathlon once and the cages issue came up. It seems to depend on the terrain? On an easy non technical trail, I don't think cages would be an issue. But if you're constantly having to put your foot down etc, cages would be a pain?

I've read platform pedals and trail shoes are a good combo.

Enduro would be the man to answer this. Ditto for kayaks. I know nothing about them!

lgk

shotgunmcos wrote: »

Apologies for the complete novice questions but is that standard for kayaking? How muc power do you generate from your legs in a Kayak? Or is it simply leverage?

Most of the power should come from your core (through rotation of the upper body) your legs should be secure to allow you do this efficiently. That's why the sit-in variety have foot rests and rests for your upper thighs, to allow you really lock in there and make best use of the larger core muscles.

shotgunmcos wrote: »

@lgk - Cheers for that. What if she is a muh more proficient kayaker, would the her skill be employed more effectivly to steer and guide the boat from the bow end? Also would a weight difference matter much, say I out weigh her by 25kg?

No problem. Yes, she should definitely sit at the back. Stern steering is more efficient and effective.

With sit-on-tops more so than regular kayaks, you might start getting trim issues facing into or across a strong wind like you'll experience in open canoes. In open canoes, it easier shift weight to counter this than it is with an sit-on-top. An experienced paddler at the stern should be able to adjust for this, perhaps changing the grip to lengthen one side of the paddle.

Enduro

nerraw1111 wrote: »

Yeah I did a MTB duathlon once and the cages issue came up. It seems to depend on the terrain? On an easy non technical trail, I don't think cages would be an issue. But if you're constantly having to put your foot down etc, cages would be a pain?

I've read platform pedals and trail shoes are a good combo.

Enduro would be the man to answer this. Ditto for kayaks. I know nothing about them!

Wearing cages whilst moutainbiking is for absolute guru mountain bikers and suicidal fools only. The only reason not to wear proper clipless perdals would be if you were in a race where transition times were significant, so it would need to be a very short race or one with a lot of on-off bike transitions. I can't think of any race with MTBing that I've done where that would apply.

If you're (general "you" there, not specificly targeted!!) constantly having to put your foot down then its time to accept that you're a crap mountain biker and that you need to dedicate training time and effort to addressing your weaknesses. I've seen very fit lads being anihilated in MTB races by far less fit lads with better MTB skills (Similar to mountain running descending, but even more pronounced).

Enduro

lgk wrote: »

Most of the power should come from your core (through rotation of the upper body) your legs should be secure to allow you do this efficiently. That's why the sit-in variety have foot rests and rests for your upper thighs, to allow you really lock in there and make best use of the larger core muscles.


With sit-on-tops more so than regular kayaks, you might start getting trim issues facing into or across a strong wind like you'll experience in open canoes. In open canoes, it easier shift weight to counter this than it is with an sit-on-top. An experienced paddler at the stern should be able to adjust for this, perhaps changing the grip to lengthen one side of the paddle.

I usually find that unless you're exposed to very high winds trim isn't anywhere near as skillsets for deciding who sits where in the SOTs, since they're such pigs of boats anyway!

I disagree with what you're saying about foot rests being for locking in the body and generating power from the upper body. That sounds more white-water style to me (Knees braced against the sides etc). For pure forward paddling the power of the stroke starts from the toes, and the legs and hips generate a huge amount of the stroke power (and rotational force). Upper body rotation finishes it off. Even in a closed boat legs should be positioned down the middle of the boat, not braced against the sides, and the legs and hips should be free to move, not locked and braced. I found this little video clip to be a good illustration of the concept...

nerraw1111

Enduro wrote: »

Wearing cages whilst moutainbiking is for absolute guru mountain bikers and suicidal fools only. The only reason not to wear proper clipless perdals would be if you were in a race where transition times were significant, so it would need to be a very short race or one with a lot of on-off bike transitions. I can't think of any race with MTBing that I've done where that would apply.

If you're (general "you" there, not specificly targeted!!) constantly having to put your foot down then its time to accept that you're a crap mountain biker and that you need to dedicate training time and effort to addressing your weaknesses. I've seen very fit lads being anihilated in MTB races by far less fit lads with better MTB skills (Similar to mountain running descending, but even more pronounced).

I'd like to go with option A, (guru mountain biker,) but I'll go with crap mountain biker.

Is Ticknock a decent location to improve MTB? Or is it limited? I find I can ride those trails fairly easy.

I read EPIC MTB forum from time to time, so feel free to be blunt!

And could you recommend a particular MTB pedal?

lgk

Yeah, good clip Enduro. You're right on the legs...I should probably declare I'm far from an expert!

nerraw1111 wrote: »

Is Ticknock a decent location to improve MTB? Or is it limited? I find I can ride those trails fairly easy.

There's a lot more to Ticknock than Metro 1 & 2. Spend some time in the woods...

Enduro

nerraw1111 wrote: »

I'd like to go with option A, (guru mountain biker,) but I'll go with crap mountain biker.

Is Ticknock a decent location to improve MTB? Or is it limited? I find I can ride those trails fairly easy.

I read EPIC MTB forum from time to time, so feel free to be blunt!

And could you recommend a particular MTB pedal?

The best way to improve is to join an MTB club, and ride with people who are better than you! That's what worked for me in a big way. Practice, and pushing out your boundaries is the main way to go. Clubs also know where all the really interesting trails are (Most are built by MTB club members after all). As lgk says, there are some fabulous ones around beyond the Metro (official) trails. Variety is good for the mind and the skillset!

If I was to post here in EPIC forum style I'd be banned fairly rapidly

My preference for MTB pedals is Shimano SPDs. They're by far the most commonly used. They seem to be pretty robust accross the boards as well, unlike eggbeaters which require a lot of TLC. The ones with a bit of a platform can be better to learn on, since you can still ride reasonably well on them without being clipped in. The more expensive ones a lighter, but apart from on my race bike I'm prefectly happy with the cheapest.

shotgunmcos

Digging up an old relevant thread rather than starting a new one.

Joey gave some technique pointers in Career Move's log.

Chiefly
1) heavier or better paddler in the back. What if the better paddler is vastly more experienced but outweighed by 20+kgs?
2) More leverage steering from the back/stern. Similar question, does that leverage diminish the heavier the person in front gets?
3) Pull the lower hand, push the upper hand. I tried this on a 10km paddle last week and it was significantly better and faster than just pulling. Bringing in your core rotation too gives a longer stroke without engaging the biceps more.

Another question. If the conditions are rough and waves are passing under the boat, left to right and right to left. Keep a steady rate or increase the cadence to "surf" the wave until it passes?

We tried surfing the waves and while you get a good couple of seconds of a boost, the kayak slumps back down the back of the wave and feels like a dead stop in comparison

At one point for a couple of kms the waves were pulling the kayak left or right no matter how much we tried to steer straight :cool:

joey100

I'll try answer some of these as well!

1) Unless the less experienced person who is heavier is a complete novice and has no idea how to paddle I'd probably put them in the back. Sit on tops are generally made to go in a straight line so not as much corrections to be made to stay in a straight line.

2)Generally it is easier to steer from the back of the boat, single or double. It's easier to make small corrections from the back of the boat, sually turning from the front involves turning the whole boat around a pivot (usually the paddle in the water) and is mostly used in white water to turn quickly into calm water. The main thing to be careful of when steering from the back is to try steer using positive strokes, forward strokes. It is easier to steer using a stroke starting behind you and pushing forward but this kills all forward momentum and like in swimming the hard bit is the getting going. So try to steer by putting the blade of the paddle in far from the side of the boat and sweeping wide to correct your stroke, done on a forward stroke.

3)Core rotation is the next phase onto the pushing and pulling and can really help. If you can keep the boat fairly straight and use positive strokes to maintain your position it is the best way to conserve energy. Negative backward strokes will make it hard becuase you will be constanty stopping and starting. Get a decent cadence and work on getting as most power from the paddle as you can.

I'm not 100% sure when you are talking about the waves,

If they are coming side on ----> or <

---

it' better to keep going as best you can. If it's coming from behind you I wouldn't worry too much about trying to surf it, it will be a lake wave, usually caused by the wind and only short and small. As well as that sit on tops aren't usually made for surfing, you want a plain flat wide hull for surfing, you will catch it for a bit but again not worth the effort. To catch a wave you need to be going the same speed as it so will need to speed up to catch it. Short small wave like that you will only be on for a few seconds and wouldn't really be worth all the extra effort, you will catch a few anyway without having to work extra hard for it. Completely different in the sea, worth the extra effort to catch it!!

If you find the boat is constantly turning two most common reasons are, 1) people are always stronger on one side and usually will be pulling hard on this side and cause the boat to turn. 2) People cut the stroke short, usally take it out about 30cms before it really ends, this is the best part of the stroke for steering and when you cut it out it's normally only on one side and again causes an imbalance. Make sure the stroke goes right back to the hips, even a little bit further. Will help hold your line.

Best way to steer when your on a wave from the back of the boat, stern rudder

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzO3ef7x45E

rebelgourmet

Very informative posts guys. Here's my 2 cents from a fairly experienced paddler (Note: I train in a 19ft surfski with a wing paddle, but I have single and double sit tops similar to those used in multi-sport races).

The question of best position in a double sit top
- Put the most experience paddler in the back irrespective of weight.
- As the experienced AR guys(enduro/Peterx and others) here have already said, sit tops are prone to 'sit up' at the front and can get 'pushed' in windy conditions. However I contend that on such short courses the better trade off is to have an experienced paddler making the correction strokes and steering from the back seat, as it is more efficient.
- It is best to tell the paddler in front to concentrate exclusively on forward stroke, not steering. (Assuming the experienced paddler can implement sweep/steering strokes)
- Note, you will find it easier to paddle straight when facing a direct head wind. A cross wind from the rear will require annoying corrections.

Some advice on an efficient stroke
- So long as you can brace your legs or feet effectively (not always possible on the sit tops used in multi sport races), then try to focus on a rotation/drive from the feet through the hips and stomach/core, this is most efficient since it recruits the biggest muscle groups.
- Contrary to what others here have said, it is NOT efficient to pull the paddle past your hips. Exit the paddle level or before your hips in the stroke.
- Reach forward and plant the paddle to initiate the stroke, then initiate the hip drive and body rotation - the upper body power to move the boat past the paddle should come primarily from the 'push/punch' forward from the other hand(blade of out the water) - the pull hand (blade in water) should be relatively neutral. Why? Pushing recruits bigger muscle groups, pulling will fatigue the biceps fairly quickly.
- Keep the full face of the blade immersed in water throughout the stroke (more efficient).
- Focus on tempo/cadence in the strokes rather than 'power'.
- Keep the paddle at shoulder level (not higher) when transitioning from one side to the other - the punch/push of the stroke should be at shoulder level.

Sorry for sounding technical, but executing even some of these might make it easier on the day, ideally try and get in a boat before the race too.

Notes on 'drafting' or other efficiency measures
- In general, for such short distances, on lakes or rivers, for inexperienced paddlers, don't even worry/bother about it as the benefits will be negligible.
- You won't be able to 'surf' waves, since if those conditions did prevail it would be likely that the kayak leg would get cancelled for safety reasons.
- Wake riding or riding the 'A' position(slightly in front of another boats bough wave) requires skill and precision and for inexperienced paddlers the proximity to other boats and paddles may be unsettling, so don't bother.
- In very high head wind, there is some merit in 'drafting' directly behind another boat to save paddling energy and benefit from marginal resistance improvements from their 'broken water'.

Again, sorry to be so wordy, but re-iterate what Enduro (I think???) said - learn to enjoy it and embrace the challenge - it'll seem easier.

joey100

Contrary to what others here have said, it is NOT efficient to pull the paddle past your hips

I wasn't saying it to make the stroke more efficient. I was saying it from a steering point of view. Biggest difficulty for new paddlers is keeping the boat in a straight line, this helps keep it straight, provides a bit more control on direction. No it's not more efficient than a properly executed forward stroke by a competent kayaker, but it is more efficient than spending every second stroke trying to correct your direction.

sconhome

joey100 wrote: »

I was saying it from a steering point of view.

This is a key point I took from a session with Mike Jones last year. Once you go past your hips you are steering, not driving the boat.

I normally sit in the rear and feel I've got the hang of the little adjustments to the steering. You are using a range of infinitely variable strokes and rhythms to tweak the alignment of the boat.

Often times I will be out of tempo with the front paddler for a stroke or two as a fill in stroke is needed on a swell or a longer deeper stroke needed to straighten the boat after a pull from a swell, or you pull more on one side as you paddle across current.

I love the paddle sections now!

rebelgourmet

AKW wrote: »

This is a key point I took from a session with Mike Jones last year. Once you go past your hips you are steering, not driving the boat.

I normally sit in the rear and feel I've got the hang of the little adjustments to the steering. You are using a range of infinitely variable strokes and rhythms to tweak the alignment of the boat.

Often times I will be out of tempo with the front paddler for a stroke or two as a fill in stroke is needed on a swell or a longer deeper stroke needed to straighten the boat after a pull from a swell, or you pull more on one side as you paddle across current.

I love the paddle sections now!

Agree with last 2 posts RE steering, where inevitably a sweep stroke passes the hip as a steering action. Inevitably this also more pronounced in types of kayaks used in these races (doubles with no rudder/skeg). Cheers lads.