High loft drivers

alxmorgan

Hey,

Played with a guy yesterday who had a 13 degree driver and he was fairly long and straight and I was intrigued.
Was talking to him and he was saying that the extra loft reduces side spin which means easier to hit straighter and that on average most amateurs can't maximise the lower loft drivers anyway
Anyone on here ever played with one or got thoughts on same ?

thanks,
alx

U.P.O.

I play with an 11.5 degree R9. I put a low launch Aldila shaft in it and definitely saw a big improvement in my driving. Hitting it much straighter, and its not going any higher or shorter than when i had my 9.5

I was having a hard time with the driver about a year or two ago so was looking into a higher lofted driver. I saw loads of articles with lots of good players playing higher lofted drivers like:

Rory Leonard playing a 12 degree http://www.golfcentraldaily.com/2010/04/whats-in-bag-of-rory-leonard-west-of.html

Lee Westwood playing a 11 degree (i think hes back to 9 now though) http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-equipment/whats-in-my-bag/2010-03/lee-westwood-my-golfbag

There was lots of others too.

I was worried about a high short ball flight. After a particaularly bad driving round i said feck it, id rather give up 20 yards and be in the fairway that be longer and in the trees. Bought the R9, havent given up any distance and am A LOT staighter. (The stock R9 shaft did give me a high-ish ball flight alright. Didnt really loose distance but it was a killer in the wind so thats why i changed shaft)
Id definitely recommend giving it a go

k.p.h

U.P.O. wrote: »

Lee Westwood playing a 11 degree (i think hes back to 9 now though) http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-equipment/whats-in-my-bag/2010-03/lee-westwood-my-golfbag

Westwood still plays his G10 which is a 9* bent to 10.5, told someone and adverts that before and they basically told me to feck off. Proof is on tv every time he hits a drive though,it's obviously his G10.

Good post though, food for thought.

alxmorgan

U.P.O. wrote: »

I play with an 11.5 degree R9. I put a low launch Aldila shaft in it and definitely saw a big improvement in my driving. Hitting it much straighter, and its not going any higher or shorter than when i had my 9.5

I was having a hard time with the driver about a year or two ago so was looking into a higher lofted driver. I saw loads of articles with lots of good players playing higher lofted drivers like:

Rory Leonard playing a 12 degree http://www.golfcentraldaily.com/2010/04/whats-in-bag-of-rory-leonard-west-of.html

Lee Westwood playing a 11 degree (i think hes back to 9 now though) http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-equipment/whats-in-my-bag/2010-03/lee-westwood-my-golfbag

There was lots of others too.

I was worried about a high short ball flight. After a particaularly bad driving round i said feck it, id rather give up 20 yards and be in the fairway that be longer and in the trees. Bought the R9, havent given up any distance and am A LOT staighter. (The stock R9 shaft did give me a high-ish ball flight alright. Didnt really loose distance but it was a killer in the wind so thats why i changed shaft)
Id definitely recommend giving it a go

Interesting. How much did the low launch shaft set you back ?
And where did you get it ? Fitted ?

U.P.O.

alxmorgan wrote: »

Interesting. How much did the low launch shaft set you back ?
And where did you get it ? Fitted ?

I picked up an Aldila RIP alpha shaft off a R9 Superdeep for about €70 i think (cant remember now).

Didnt get fitted. It was just an experiment for myself really which thankfully worked out well.

ShriekingSheet

Good thread.

Way, way more people need to consider this. There's far too many golfers out there who think "I'm a single figure player so I obviously can't be seen with a 10 degree driver"... it's pure ego and vanity.

If you have the right shaft, the loft on the club face won't make a massive difference, and any loss of yards or higher ball flight will be more than negated by the increase in accuracy.

I used to hear various rumours of tour players having two drivers, one with plenty of loft (or even a shorter shaft) for weeks they we're hitting it great, so it kept them in play and in the tournament. This wouldn't be picked up on TV, or by the "what's in the bag" pieces.

With the adjustable craze coming along, it's probably doubley true, with guys being able to set-up for a more forgiving club when needed.

There's so, so many guys at all levels with too little loft and too stiff a shaft. More prizes for me.

mike12

Club head and ball speed plus the amount of side spin have a huge impact on ball carry which is what we are all trying to maximise.
The harder you hit the ball the lower you need it to launch to acheive the optimal carry.
Almost every amature that plays with a regular shaft would benefit from a extra couple of degrees. anyone that sprays the ball all over the place would benefit.
So anyone over 105MPH swing speed needs a lower launching shaft than standard but could still get away with a 10.5 degree driver. Put the standard high launch shaft and 10.5 degress and u are going nowhere.
Was it not discusssed on this form that a lot of companies have 9.5 on the drivers but they are more like 10.5.
I think the stock shafts in all drivers are crap bar the Tp versions and it is where they companies are making most of there profits.
By the way i have 2 after market shafts for sale on adverts as i bought 4 to do a bit of self fitting and i'm now selling 2 on they have R9 adaptor but will fit the R11.

Tones69

Yep, play the highest loft you can play without balooning it. Lot of the pro's are hitting higher lofted drivers now with low launching shafts, Dustin johnsons has his r11 set to 10.5 degrees, one of the longest hitters on tour..

A lot of people who cut the ball and get a high flight always think they need a lower loft, 9 times out of 10 a balooning ball comes from the swing itself

alxmorgan

Tones69 wrote: »

Yep, play the highest loft you can play without balooning it. Lot of the pro's are hitting higher lofted drivers now with low launching shafts, Dustin johnsons has his r11 set to 10.5 degrees, one of the longest hitters on tour..

A lot of people who cut the ball and get a high flight always think they need a lower loft, 9 times out of 10 a balooning ball comes from the swing itself

Seen quite a bit of comment on this online.
Interesting mix to marry forgiveness without ballooning the ball

murphdogg11

I have a 12 degree driver following a custom fitting a few years ago. Unfortunately, while it does keep the ball in play my tee shots go miles in the air (and short) especially when playing into the wind. I'm looking around for a driver at the moment & will definitely go back to a 10.5 gegree driver.

m r c

murphdogg11 wrote: »

I have a 12 degree driver following a custom fitting a few years ago. Unfortunately, while it does keep the ball in play my tee shots go miles in the air (and short) especially when playing into the wind. I'm looking around for a driver at the moment & will definitely go back to a 10.5 gegree driver.

Have you tried to play the ball back in your stance a bit, like you would in wind I should keep the ball down a bit for you?
What kind of club is it I often wanted to try a driver like that? Depending on if you wanted rid I might buy it if the specs suit. Feel free to pm me if you wish.

MisterAnarchy

mike12 wrote: »

Was it not discusssed on this forum that a lot of companies have 9.5 on the drivers but they are more like 10.5.

Yes it was .
Most drivers sold today have a draw bias ,i.e the head is closed 1-2 degrees to offset the slice that ~80% of golfers have as their natural shot type.
This closed club face actually means the true loft is 1-2 degrees more than a neutral bias driver (which are few and far between).
So if the closed face driver is marked as 9.5 degrees its actually 11.5 degrees .
For every degree closed the face is it adds one degree of loft. Conversely, if the face is built open, it decreases the effective loft.

golfnut1

MisterAnarchy wrote: »

Yes it was .
Most drivers sold today have a draw bias ,i.e the head is closed 1-2 degrees to offset the slice that ~80% of golfers have as their natural shot type.
This closed club face actually means the true loft is 1-2 degrees more than a neutral bias driver (which are few and far between).
So if the closed face driver is marked as 9.5 degrees its actually 11.5 degrees .
For every degree closed the face is it adds one degree of loft. Conversely, if the face is built open, it decreases the effective loft.

Thats dosent sound right to me.
Opening the face would add loft no?
I know when I open the face of a wedge it adds loft. Surely opening the face on both a driver or a wedge the effect should be the same?
Modern adjustable Drivers can adjust lie independantly of loft at least thats what they claim.
Where are you getting this info from?

alxmorgan

golfnut1 wrote: »

Thats dosent sound right to me.
Opening the face would add loft no?
I know when I open the face of a wedge it adds loft. Surely opening the face on both a driver or a wedge the effect should be the same?
Modern adjustable Drivers can adjust lie independantly of loft at least thats what they claim.
Where are you getting this info from?

I have an R9 Supertri and the documentation with it even says closing the faces increases the effective loft but like you it seems counter-intuitive to me.
Lil help ?

golfnut1

alxmorgan wrote: »

golfnut1 wrote: »

Thats dosent sound right to me.
Opening the face would add loft no?
I know when I open the face of a wedge it adds loft. Surely opening the face on both a driver or a wedge the effect should be the same?
Modern adjustable Drivers can adjust lie independantly of loft at least thats what they claim.
Where are you getting this info from?

I have an R9 Supertri and the documentation with it even says closing the faces increases the effective loft but like you it seems counter-intuitive to me.
Lil help ?

Thanks alxmorgan
I can't understand how this would be the case.
Titleist with the 910 range claim that lie can be independently adjusted from loft.
I presume the tm r11s is the same.
It's like being told left is right.

MisterAnarchy

golfnut1 wrote: »

Thats dosent sound right to me.
Opening the face would add loft no?
I know when I open the face of a wedge it adds loft. Surely opening the face on both a driver or a wedge the effect should be the same?
Modern adjustable Drivers can adjust lie independantly of loft at least thats what they claim.
Where are you getting this info from?

Numerous sources,its common knowledge ,basic laws of physics.
Have a look here http://www.ralphmaltby.com/357 or Tom Wishon's site .
Many people feel it is counterintuitive, but it is true
Let me rephrase it.
1. A closed face driver actually increases effective loft at impact (assuming you keep the face square).
2. An open face driver actually decreases the effective loft at impact (assuming you square the clubface).

The one thing to keep in mind here is that as you reposition the face angle at setup with your driver, you also change the actual loft angle. In other words for every degree you hold the face closed you also decrease the loft by the same amount. Conversely, if you roll the face open you will increase the loft. If a manufacturer measures their driver loft across the sole and up the face, this will be the stated loft in the specifications and probably engraved on the head. Let’s assume the stated loft is 10 degrees. Also, let’s assume this manufacturer specified a 2 degree closed or hook face angle. If this were your driver and you were a lesser skilled golfer, the 2 degree closed face angle at address would help you get a more closed or hook face angle to clubhead path at impact and this could help out with your slicing problem. However, if the more skilled golfer would play the same club and actually rotated the face to square with the target at address, he would actually be increasing the “effective driver loft” by 2 degrees. Calculation; take the 10 degree stated loft angle and add to it the 2 degrees you rolled the face open to square it with the target, this gives you an actual total of 12 degrees of loft.

The big reason why most companies perfer to use a closed clubface is because it increases the effective loft of the driver face at impact. Just about all golfers these days need more loft, but refuse to get away from their 9.5 and 8.5 degree drivers despite lower spinning driver heads and golf balls. Manufacturers have decided to be proactive and give the customers what they need without telling them. Measure the loft on most off the rack drivers these days and you might be surprised at what they truly measure.

Whyner

MisterAnarchy wrote: »

Numerous sources,its common knowledge ,basic laws of physics.
Have a look here http://www.ralphmaltby.com/357 or Tom Wishon's site .
Many people feel it is counterintuitive, but it is true
Let me rephrase it.
1. A closed face driver actually increases effective loft at impact (assuming you keep the face square).
2. An open face driver actually decreases the effective loft at impact (assuming you square the clubface).



The big reason why most companies perfer to use a closed clubface is because it increases the effective loft of the driver face at impact. Just about all golfers these days need more loft, but refuse to get away from their 9.5 and 8.5 degree drivers despite lower spinning driver heads and golf balls. Manufacturers have decided to be proactive and give the customers what they need without telling them. Measure the loft on most off the rack drivers these days and you might be surprised at what they truly measure.

Common sense says bo11oxology.

kagni

I'll have a go at explaining it:)

Lets say you have a driver that has 10* of loft and the face is closed by 2º.
To get the face of the driver to square you need to rotate it open by 2º.


If you drive the ball straight with it then the face has to be square at impact.
So during the swing you have actually opened the face by 2º.
By opening the face 2º you will add approx 2º of loft.

GreeBo

MisterAnarchy wrote: »

Numerous sources,its common knowledge ,basic laws of physics.
Have a look here http://www.ralphmaltby.com/357 or Tom Wishon's site .
Many people feel it is counterintuitive, but it is true
Let me rephrase it.
1. A closed face driver actually increases effective loft at impact (assuming you keep the face square).
2. An open face driver actually decreases the effective loft at impact (assuming you square the clubface).

I think you and golfnut are talking about different things.
Opening the face does add loft. It also makes you slice the ball.
To hit a straight shot with an open face you need to "close" the face somehow during your swing, doing this delofts the club from what its marked loft angle is.
So the key is hitting the ball straight.

golfnut1

GreeBo wrote: »

MisterAnarchy wrote: »

Numerous sources,its common knowledge ,basic laws of physics.
Have a look here http://www.ralphmaltby.com/357 or Tom Wishon's site .
Many people feel it is counterintuitive, but it is true
Let me rephrase it.
1. A closed face driver actually increases effective loft at impact (assuming you keep the face square).
2. An open face driver actually decreases the effective loft at impact (assuming you square the clubface).

I think you and golfnut are talking about different things.
Opening the face does add loft. It also makes you slice the ball.
To hit a straight shot with an open face you need to "close" the face somehow during your swing, doing this delofts the club from what its marked loft angle is.
So the key is hitting the ball straight.

I stoped reading after "It's common knowledge, basic laws of physics"

You play a fade with an open face and a draw with a closed face. Generally a fade flies higher than a draw. Draw your own conclusions from this.

MisterAnarchy

golfnut1 wrote: »

You play a fade with an open face and a draw with a closed face. Generally a fade flies higher than a draw. Draw your own conclusions from this.

I know that ,I am not an idiot .:rolleyes:

The link I posted was to one of the most famous club designers in the world,but you obviously know more than him.
Do a google search for the "closed face driver loft" and see what you may learn.

Sandwlch

A note on the high loft driver's 'dark matter' counterpart - the BIG 3 wood. Never hit your 3 wood from the fairway ? But carry one as a 'short' driver or a safe option on tight holes?

Then get yourself a 15 degree 460cc driver. Cut the shaft down to 42"-43". Add some lead to it or (or increase the weights if a modifiable model), and have yourself the ideal 3-wood-from-the-tee Thriver. You find yourself reaching for even more than you would previously for a conventional 3 wood.

golfnut1

MisterAnarchy wrote: »

golfnut1 wrote: »

You play a fade with an open face and a draw with a closed face. Generally a fade flies higher than a draw. Draw your own conclusions from this.

I know that ,I am not an idiot .:rolleyes:

The link I posted was to one of the most famous club designers in the world,but you obviously know more than him.
Do a google search for the "closed face driver loft" and see what you may learn.

Sure look, your the one saying that a closed face reduces loft.
What I'm saying is I have never heard this and titleist for one, say lie can be adjusted independently of loft. Im completely open to understanding how this works if you can explain it to me. We can all quote this guy and that and get whatever side of the story we want.
Really though what's the basic principal behind this?

P.s. we'll have to continue this tomorrow as its a bottle of wine and the masters for me now.

Zardoz

golfnut1 wrote: »

Sure look, your the one saying that a closed face reduces loft.

Thats not what I am saying ,you have openly admitted that you havent even bothered to read half of what I posted.
A closed club face obviously reduces loft ,ffs ,everyone knows that.

What I am saying is that a closed face driver actually increases effective loft at impact (assuming you keep the face square).
Lets say you have a 10.5 degree driver with a 2 degree closed bias .
The loft is 10.5 degrees with the face preclosed by 2 degrees by the manufacturer.
Its effectively a 12.5 degree driver closed by 2 degrees .
However if you hit the ball with a square face you effectively have a loft of 10.5 + 2 degrees.
Can you not see that ?:(

mike12

Isn't this the reason all the TP models are 1 or 1.5 degrees open so when the better player hits his usual draw he delofts it by the degree and gets the extra distance. And why any hacker that hits a slice that buys a tp model cannot understand why it makes him worse.
Mike

k.p.h

golfnut1 wrote: »

I stoped reading after "It's common knowledge, basic laws of physics"

You play a fade with an open face and a draw with a closed face. Generally a fade flies higher than a draw. Draw your own conclusions from this.

This is to the swing path and not to the target line(as a lot of people think) . Most pro golfers hit draws with the club face open to the target line.

golfnut1 wrote: »

Thanks alxmorgan
I can't understand how this would be the case.
Titleist with the 910 range claim that lie can be independently adjusted from loft.
I presume the tm r11s is the same.
It's like being told left is right.

It's the Titleist adapter that dose this, the R11 dose not adjust independently IIRC. It's just a really fancy two way clock ferrule type of thing . And some common knowledge physics

golfnut1

Zardoz wrote: »

golfnut1 wrote: »

Sure look, your the one saying that a closed face reduces loft.

Thats not what I am saying ,you have openly admitted that you havent even bothered to read half of what I posted.
A closed club face obviously reduces loft ,ffs ,everyone knows that.

What I am saying is that a closed face driver actually increases effective loft at impact (assuming you keep the face square).
Lets say you have a 10.5 degree driver with a 2 degree closed bias .
The loft is 10.5 degrees with the face preclosed by 2 degrees by the manufacturer.
Its effectively a 12.5 degree driver closed by 2 degrees .
However if you hit the ball with a square face you effectively have a loft of 10.5 + 2 degrees.
Can you not see that ?:(

I think I understand what your saying. It's a completely flawed theory.

Off set clubs only work for robots and pretty useless to the rest of us.

It's the player that sets the club behind the ball. The player decided what looks open/square/closed for him/her regardless of built-in offset/bias.
If a player who uses 2 offset driver because he knows he will come into impact 2 degrees open then he dosent need an offset. If the player is that good he can square any club.
Specifically dealing with the loft issue. Your right a closed face driver open at impact will increase its dynamic lauch/loft but so will any driver or club regardless of offset or bias. This is called a slice
The only thing an offset had been scientifically proven to do is make the club shovel ugly. Thats just common knowledge and basic physics.

justbmad

Anyone know where id get a Ping K15 driver with 12 degree loft & what kind on money would they be in Ireland , site on internet (www.golfdiscounttown.com) sell the 10.5 degree for 113 sterling but dont know if their dodgy....

golfnut1

k.p.h wrote: »

golfnut1 wrote: »

I stoped reading after "It's common knowledge, basic laws of physics"

You play a fade with an open face and a draw with a closed face. Generally a fade flies higher than a draw. Draw your own conclusions from this.

This is to the swing path and not to the target line(as a lot of people think) . Most pro golfers hit draws with the club face open to the target line.

golfnut1 wrote: »

Thanks alxmorgan
I can't understand how this would be the case.
Titleist with the 910 range claim that lie can be independently adjusted from loft.
I presume the tm r11s is the same.
It's like being told left is right.

It's the Titleist adapter that dose this, the R11 dose not adjust independently IIRC. It's just a really fancy two way clock ferrule type of thing . And some common knowledge physics

Your right kph.
You can look at it two ways either your open or the club is open (fade).
Just for the purpose of the debate I went with the open face to make my point but strictly speaking open stance is a better way of looking at it than open face as the face should be square to target.
Re draws some may set up open but the club face must roll over/close at impact to hit a draw.
Re the r11 I didn't know that.

k.p.h

golfnut1 wrote: »

Re the r11 I didn't know that.

You can use the sole plate on the R11 to adjust the lie though, e.g decrease loft (open clubface), adjust sole plate so the it looks neutral when rested on the ground. But who completely rests the club on the ground before they hit it, it's all a bit of trickery really.

I don't think the Titleist adapter is completely independent either , maybe it is, but I just don't think it can be done. I think they use the fact that the lower the loft the less the lie angle effects the loft and other bits of knowledge that only clubmakers and fitters would understand along with the snazzy adapter to achieve it.

None of it is intuitive IMO, but I'm pretty certain the Titleist dose it best.

Must say I don't really like them adapter's anyway, not sure if it's just me but I think they feel terrible when hitting a ball. Well, maybe not terrible but a little "meh". Off the toe/heel or slice/hook and the occasional peach down the middle all feel the same. Not saying the clubs are bad are anything and it's mostly the R11 I'v hit and the ball dose go, but I just don't like them.

golfnut1

k.p.h wrote: »

golfnut1 wrote: »

Re the r11 I didn't know that.

You can use the sole plate on the R11 to adjust the lie though, e.g decrease loft (open clubface), adjust sole plate so the it looks neutral when rested on the ground. But who completely rests the club on the ground before they hit it, it's all a bit of trickery really.

I don't think the Titleist adapter is completely independent either , maybe it is, but I just don't think it can be done. I think they use the fact that the lower the loft the less the lie angle effects the loft and other bits of knowledge that only clubmakers and fitters would understand along with the snazzy adapter to achieve it.

None of it is intuitive IMO, but I'm pretty certain the Titleist dose it best.

Must say I don't really like them adapter's anyway, not sure if it's just me but I think they feel terrible when hitting a ball. Well, maybe not terrible but a little "meh". Off the toe/heel or slice/hook and the occasional peach down the middle all feel the same. Not saying the clubs are bad are anything and it's mostly the R11 I'v hit and the ball dose go, but I just don't like them.

Wouldn't be a fan of the r11 or r11s seems too tricked up and the sole plate gets awful abuse.
I find the best thing about the adjustable drivers is that you can crank up the loft in winter for maximum carry and lower it in summer to get a bit more roll out of it.
It's like have 2 drivers.