If you're a tough cookie, have good power and a solid chin, can you make it?

RiseToTheTop

Can you make it all the way to the top of the boxing game? ie win a world title.

What do you guys think? You can interpret "tough cookie" how you want. Loads of heart, lots of guts, etc.

cowzerp

Marty Rogan for example, you can go a bit but not all the way in most cases without skill to back it up.

barney4001

not with out the skills and reflexes, dedication ,no matter how tough you are

RiseToTheTop

But how would skills and reflexes help you beat a fighter with no loss in him?

I know it been said before, but Rocky Marciano. People say he has skills, but he would have been less skillfull than Jersey Joe Walcott or Ezzard Charles. That determination to come forward and with no giving in.

walshb

RiseToTheTop wrote: »

But how would skills and reflexes help you beat a fighter with no loss in him?

I know it been said before, but Rocky Marciano. People say he has skills, but he would have been less skillfull than Jersey Joe Walcott or Ezzard Charles. That determination to come forward and with no giving in.

Rocky did not get by on power, heart, stamina and chin alone. He had the talent and punching skills. His skills just don't look as neat and refined. The guy had wicked punch variation, power off both wings, and shots from all angles with tremendous balance and positioning whilst delivering. Rocky to me had underrated and subtle skills.

How was Ezzard, for example, more skilled? It's such a subjective term.

Rocky to me was a lot more skilled than other good to very good fighters.

I do not think Rocky is a good example for this thread. Martin Rogan IS!

Jayob10

RiseToTheTop wrote: »

But how would skills and reflexes help you beat a fighter with no loss in him?

I know it been said before, but Rocky Marciano. People say he has skills, but he would have been less skillfull than Jersey Joe Walcott or Ezzard Charles. That determination to come forward and with no giving in.

you would outpoint him comfortably

walshb

Jayob10 wrote: »

you would outpoint him comfortably

Not if there is "no loss" in him!

Jayob10

walshb wrote: »

Not if there is "no loss" in him!

of course you would, he may have no loss in him, but if the opponent has superb defence, counter punching, reflexes, footwork and head movement, then all the guts, power and determination in the world isn't going to be enough.

Hitting fresh air for 12 rounds doesn't win you points.

walshb

Jayob10 wrote: »

of course you would, he may have no loss in him, but if the opponent has superb defence, counter punching, reflexes, footwork and head movement, then all the guts, power and determination in the world isn't going to be enough.

Hitting fresh air for 12 rounds doesn't win you points.

I know this....;)

Tex Cobb had no loss in him; Chuvalo had no loss in him; Matthew Hatton has no loss in him.

RiseToTheTop

walshb wrote: »

I know this....;)

Tex Cobb had no loss in him; Chuvalo had no loss in him; Matthew Hatton has no loss in him.

What about George Foreman or Earnie Shavers?

cowzerp

RiseToTheTop wrote: »

What about George Foreman or Earnie Shavers?

Foreman had excellent footwork and a great chin and almost unrivalled power-his attributes where a major part of his ability but he had skills.

theavenger

Shavers had some serious power, i think 69 ko out of 75 wins, one of the hardest ever hitters

colly10

Chin and toughness can only get you so far. Your limited without speed and skills. It's why Pac gave Margarito such a beating and Mayweather destoyed Gatti.
Both Margarito or Gatti are tough with great heart, AM in perticular has a rock solid chin but these guys get badly shown up when they meet a fighter with alot more skill

Henno30

colly10 wrote: »

Chin and toughness can only get you so far. Your limited without speed and skills. It's why Pac gave Margarito such a beating and Mayweather destoyed Gatti.
Both Margarito or Gatti are tough with great heart, AM in perticular has a rock solid chin but these guys get badly shown up when they meet a fighter with alot more skill

I take it you're not suggesting Gatti or Margarito didn't 'make it'? Both of those guys made it by the standards of most people who ever put on a pair of gloves.

colly10

Henno30 wrote: »

I take it you're not suggesting Gatti or Margarito didn't 'make it'? Both of those guys made it by the standards of most people who ever put on a pair of gloves.

No both made it, and both have boxing skill, they're skills are only being shown up because of the level that their fighting. If they were fighting in your local bc they'd probably be seen as highly skilled. Fighters with less skill won't make it that far.
I'm only using them as an example of how a never say die attitude is not enough once you come up against someone more skilled.

RiseToTheTop

cowzerp wrote: »

Foreman had excellent footwork and a great chin and almost unrivalled power-his attributes where a major part of his ability but he had skills.

Let's face the reality, for a 220-230lbs man footwork doesn't mean as much as a 125lb man.

walshb

Footwork is more than just movement and leg speed. It's positioning too, setting the feet up to deliver the best possible punch. Stalking. Formean had great feet when stalking.

As for the thread. The heart, guts, and power will get you so far, but when youn meet someone with a solid chin, speed and overall silky skills, you will lose almost all the time.

RiseToTheTop

How would you define skill? Quicker reflexes, ability to dodge punches?

I mean we all know what it means, but i'd like to get a solid, down to earth definition of it, instead of an all encompassing one.

walshb

RiseToTheTop wrote: »

How would you define skill? Quicker reflexes, ability to dodge punches?

I mean we all know what it means, but i'd like to get a solid, down to earth definition of it, instead of an all encompassing one.

But you are the one who created the thread. You define it, and then maybe we can respond accordingly. Like I said, skill is a subjective term.

To me Rocky is skilled, others think not.

Personally I would rate skills as those who are natural, fluid, relaxed and in control during a bout whilst performing in an efficient manner. Pea, Floyd, Toney spring to mind.

cowzerp

walshb wrote: »

To me Rocky is skilled, others think not.

Personally I would rate skills as those who are natural, fluid, relaxed and in control during a bout whilst performing in an efficient manner. Pea, Floyd, Toney spring to mind.

He has skills, but overall would not be what most would consider skilful, by that i mean technically good punching, this is the main skill of boxing. there are many but the rock's main attributes where power and heart in fairness.

walshb

But his punch variation, and angles that he throws at whilst positioning his body and feet to me is real skill and natural ability. I see your point however. He can look crude, but when he gets it right, and unleashes, it's beautiful.

cowzerp

walshb wrote: »

But his punch variation, and angles that he throws at whilst positioning his body and feet to me is real skill and natural ability. I see your point howevere. He can look crude, but when he gets it right, and unleashes, it's beautiful.

I'd call it a tough fella swinging pretty wildly and landing some, exactly what the op was talking about, the rare case where toughness can take you far-rather than a technical boxer landing more and cleanly.

walshb

cowzerp wrote: »

I'd call it a tough fella swinging pretty wildly and landing some, exactly what the op was talking about, the rare case where toughness can take you far-rather than a technical boxer landing more and cleanly.

Not all wildly. Yes, sometimes he did, but like I said, when he got it right, it was pure beauty. There are many clips and instances where he is throwing beautiful short shots from all angles, whilst dipping and defending and connecting. And feet always in prime position.

As to this and the thread. No, Rocky is not IMO a good example, as to me he had a lot more than hearts, guts and will.

Deceptive defense, fast attacking feet, and wicked power from odd angles.

Bruno for example wasn't as skilled as Rocky. Slow, ponderous, powerful. Text book shots, but that was it.