Customs question

cadete

A few days ago I was stopped by customs checking diesel, no problem but they had me sitting 20 mins waiting and checking my tank.
What I want to know is where can i find my rights when stopped by customs. I had a good look online but cannot seem to find any information, can i refuse to open my tank? If they open an injector are they liable for any damage caused to my car?
Just a general question so please dont say "why would you refuse"
cheers

gyppo

Never heard of a customs official cracking open an injector before.

Normally they take a sample from the tank afaik. I don't know what your rights are from a legal viewpoint...

-Corkie-

gyppo wrote: »

Never heard of a customs official cracking open an injector before.

Normally they take a sample from the tank afaik. I don't know what your rights are from a legal viewpoint...

They can sample fuel from the engine. They have more power than the Gardai..

gyppo

-Corkie- wrote: »

They can sample fuel from the engine. They have more power than the Gardai..

I didn't know that! I'd imagine that they would be deeply suspicious of the driver if they went down that route.

john reilly

-Corkie- wrote: »

They can sample fuel from the engine. They have more power than the Gardai..

in mordern diesel i imagine they would be afraid of their life to touch it. just mention damage and solictors.

-Corkie-

john reilly wrote: »

in mordern diesel i imagine they would be afraid of their life to touch it. just mention damage and solictors.

True but most diesels have easy access to the fuel filter hence no need to go near injectors. Those custom lads have zero tolerence.

john reilly

-Corkie- wrote: »

True but most diesels have easy access to the fuel filter hence no need to go near injectors. Those custom lads have zero tolerence.

well if it was a mondeo you would want a good battery in it. they wouldnt be touching anything under the bonnet in my car

-Corkie-

john reilly wrote: »

well if it was a mondeo you would want a good battery in it. they wouldnt be touching anything under the bonnet in my car

I should have said its only trucks that are checked in this manner. Its easy to have a belly tank under a 45' trailer..

john reilly

-Corkie- wrote: »

I should have said its only trucks that are checked in this manner. Its easy to have a belly tank under a 45' trailer..

hard to hide one though

-Corkie-

john reilly wrote: »

hard to hide one though

Quite easy with a reefer or fridge actually as the sides are closed in.

Farmer Pudsey

I remember years ago hearing a story about a plumber had a roof rack on van made of gunbarrel took about 3 gallons had it piped through van and a change over switch under dash the customs diped him loads of times never caught him until someone squeled on him so they then did him at the injectors and the tank, so they seized the van to check it when the case went to court the ould judge only fined him the just above minimum amount as he thaugh it very funny

john reilly

-Corkie- wrote: »

Quite easy with a reefer or fridge actually as the sides are closed in.

its legal to run the fridge on green but the fuel lines would be fairly visible

john reilly

more likely to be running with a split tank

Paddy001

As far as I'm aware they can check at the engine if they so wish, if it is white diesel though they have to put it all back as they found it and their liable for any damage but if they find something they don't have to put anything back, to the best of my knowledge

colm_mcm

Don't they just check the fuel filter?

MugMugs

colm_mcm wrote: »

Don't they just check the fuel filter?

Yup...

fasttalkerchat

You have next to no rights im afraid. Even if you're on private property you can't refuse to open the tank.

Del2005

john reilly wrote: »

well if it was a mondeo you would want a good battery in it. they wouldnt be touching anything under the bonnet in my car

Enjoy the walk.

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

You have next to no rights im afraid. Even if you're on private property you can't refuse to open the tank.

Yep, they have all the power and we have none. I've heard of them opening buildings looking for cars for VRT.

Bearcat

The word everyone has not used is "draconian powers" which is what those customs lads have as agents of the revenue commissioners. Some of them can be nasty pieces of work.

CiniO

I've never been stopped by customs, but one thing makes me wonder. Is it really that common thing people using green diesel in cars and vans (and buses and trucks maybe)?
What actually is green diesel? Is it the agricultural diesel you can buy at pumps for like 60% of normal diesel?
Can anyboday buy it, or maybe you just need some permission that you own a tractor or something?

Plese if someone could explain it to me, as I just have no clue what is it all about.

MugMugs

It's diesel without the duty on it so its really cheap. It is dyed green in colour to show no duty has been paid. It can only be used off the public roads. Tractors in fields.... Cars in fields... Refrigeration units of trucks.... It's an offence to drive anything on a public road propelled by green diesel as the duty hasn't been paid and yes, people do use it hence customs "dipping" tanks to check.

The green element is only an initial indication.... There's a second tell tale in the diesel too...

CiniO

MugMugs wrote: »

It's diesel without the duty on it so its really cheap. It is dyed green in colour to show no duty has been paid. It can only be used off the public roads. Tractors in fields.... Cars in fields... Refrigeration units of trucks.... It's an offence to drive anything on a public road propelled by green diesel as the duty hasn't been paid and yes, people do use it hence customs "dipping" tanks to check.

The green element is only an initial indication.... There's a second tell tale in the diesel too...

Cheers to explaining.

But does that mean anyone can buy it without any problems?
I've seen guys filling it to the 25 litre containers and putting them to their boot. I've never seen anyone filling it into their car or tractor.
But are petrol stations obliged somehow to make sure person is not filling it into their car on petrol station?
I undestand that if it's for off-road use only, then there isn't any limitation like "only for farmers" or something, and therefore there isn't any special permission needed for purchasing it.

MugMugs

No restrictions on purchase just on use. Even Bertie can buy it!

MugMugs

If you had a generator and needed diesel for it. Why would you pay duty first of all and secondly, how would you prove that you had a generator?

Yakuza

What if you charged a Leaf or eFluence off a generator powered by green diesel?

Customs have massive powers to track down revenue loss to the state.

MugMugs

Yakuza wrote: »

What if you charged a Leaf or eFluence off a generator powered by green diesel?

Customs have massive powers to track down revenue loss to the state.

What if I found a way to remove the dye from the diesel and use it on a public road..... Oh wait....

Technique

Why do farmers etc. not pay the full whack and then claim the duty back at the end of the tax year?

It would save an awful lot of work for customs, as well as putting the fuel launderers out of business.

murphaph

Technique wrote: »

Why do farmers etc. not pay the full whack and then claim the duty back at the end of the tax year?

It would save an awful lot of work for customs, as well as putting the fuel launderers out of business.

Why indeed. Marking diesel in this way is not done in Germany anyway. Here farmers etc. claim a rebate of duty based on receipts. No fuel laundering etc. to worry about.

fasttalkerchat

Technique wrote: »

Why do farmers etc. not pay the full whack and then claim the duty back at the end of the tax year?

It would save an awful lot of work for customs, as well as putting the fuel launderers out of business.

Because farmers would claim to be using a million litres a month!

Technique

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

Because farmers would claim to be using a million litres a month!

The Revenue has ways of verifying use of many other things, why not fuel? The ability to put out of business the criminal element who launder diesel and wreck engines would be worth a few farmers overclaiming. I think that successive governments are too scared to stand up to the farmers lobby.

pa990

murphaph wrote: »

Why indeed. Marking diesel in this way is not done in Germany anyway. Here farmers etc. claim a rebate of duty based on receipts. No fuel laundering etc. to worry about.

&

Technique wrote: »

The Revenue has ways of verifying use of many other things, why not fuel? The ability to put out of business the criminal element who launder diesel and wreck engines would be worth a few farmers overclaiming. I think that successive governments are too scared to stand up to the farmers lobby.

cos they could claim that all the diesel that they have used even if it was in a car that they use day to day on a public road was for off road use.

Also, older home heating systems run diesel as well.. would the ordinary person have to claim back duty on that as well ??

The tax rebate system for diesel would be wide open to abuse

Del2005

MugMugs wrote: »

It's diesel without the duty on it so its really cheap. It is dyed green in colour to show no duty has been paid. It can only be used off the public roads. Tractors in fields.... Cars in fields... Refrigeration units of trucks.... It's an offence to drive anything on a public road propelled by green diesel as the duty hasn't been paid and yes, people do use it hence customs "dipping" tanks to check.

The green element is only an initial indication.... There's a second tell tale in the diesel too...

Not quite correct. Agricultural vehicles can still use green diesel on the roads. But they are planning on clamping down on it.

As usual people where abusing it and using tractors and trailers to haul loads on the roads using green diesel/agricultural insurance/tax therefore dealing another death blow to the already struggling HGV hauliers, who have to pay huge Motor Tax/insurance and use white diesel. The best bit was that it was road building/improvements that where the biggest users of this cheap haulage

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

Because farmers would claim to be using a million litres a month!

To be honest even if farmers where claiming to use millions of litres a month, which would be very easy for customs to verify, it's still better than the loyal Irish men scum bags that are destroying our environment and cars with washed diesel. That's even before I worry about the money we are loosing.

Is there any issue with using Red Diesel (the UK's marked diesel for CiniO) off road down here?

pa990

Del2005 wrote: »

.... Agricultural vehicles can still use green diesel on the roads. But they are planning on clamping down on it.

.....

They are only suppose to use agri diesel on the public road if they are traveling from field to field

Yakuza

This has been discussed here many times before. The consensus is that it's a fairly sensible thing do to, but it will never see the light of day due to inertia.

wildefalcon

Bearcat wrote: »

The word everyone has not used is "draconian powers" which is what those customs lads have as agents of the revenue commissioners. Some of them can be nasty pieces of work.

They have powers of seizure, without evidence, without court approval. If they think that it has been involved in denying the State revenue they can, and will take it.

Irrespective of what, where and who it is. Wedding rings, houses, cars, sheds, anything is subject to their remit.

If they have it, and it's NOT theirs then it is returned, but their attitude is "take it, and let the paperwork sort it out later."

As for the idea that the farmers should buy the full duty stuff, sure, why not? It is a tax deducible expense, afterall, and it just means they'll pay less tax, so what's the problem?

pa990

pa990 wrote: »

They are only suppose to use agri diesel on the public road if they are traveling from field to field

A farmer can use it for any farm related work not just going from field to field, that would be a ridiculous stipulation and impossible to enforce.

Agricultural contractors can also use green diesel.

I went through customs checkpoints once or twice in tractors working for a construction company, moving machines etc obviously not farm work. I was just waved through they had no interest in dipping me, I was of course using green diesel.

pa990

Leona Nutty Cornea wrote: »

A farmer can use it for any farm related work not just going from field to field, that would be a ridiculous stipulation and impossible to enforce.

Agricultural contractors can also use green diesel.

I went through customs checkpoints once or twice in tractors working for a construction company, moving machines etc obviously not farm work. I was just waved through they had no interest in dipping me, I was of course using green diesel.

i stand by what i said..

the reason it isnt enforced is because, as you said "impossible to enforce"

fasttalkerchat

Del2005 wrote: »

To be honest even if farmers where claiming to use millions of litres a month, which would be very easy for customs to verify, it's still better than the loyal Irish men scum bags that are destroying our environment and cars with washed diesel. That's even before I worry about the money we are losing.

Is there any issue with using Red Diesel (the UK's marked diesel for CiniO) off road down here?

If fuel prices werent so ridiculous there wouldn't be a market for impure washed diesel. I know its a simple argument but when people are happy to risk ruining an expensive car to save money on fuel something must be wrong.

When using red diesel in the south, the same rules apply as with green diesel. I enquired about that possible loophole

john reilly

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

If fuel prices werent so ridiculous there wouldn't be a market for impure washed diesel. I know its a simple argument but when people are happy to risk ruining an expensive car to save money on fuel something must be wrong.

When using red diesel in the south, the same rules apply as with green diesel. I enquired about that possible loophole

the unfortunate thing is you dont know its washed diesel, you pay the full price but your getting contaminated ****

fasttalkerchat

john reilly wrote: »

the unfortunate thing is you dont know its washed diesel, you pay the full price but your getting contaminated ****

I've never know normal petrol stations to sell 100% washed stuff. They may throw in a few litres of the washed stuff to stretch the legal fuel.
I know of about 10 places (some no longer going) to get the washed diesel and all are obviously not legit.

Del2005

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

If fuel prices werent so ridiculous there wouldn't be a market for impure washed diesel. I know its a simple argument but when people are happy to risk ruining an expensive car to save money on fuel something must be wrong.

There's always been washed diesel. It just it's getting more prevalent now as there's less jail time than drugs

Bearcat

i think half the country is going around on ag diesel. the first offense is a fine, 2nd your in a world of poo. Anyone caught, their details are registered in the audit section of the registered commissioners and if they think your fair game if you have any type of business they can launch a desk top audit that your accountants will charge a couple of grand for. Its not worth it in my world having being audited twice and do not want to attract their attention again.