ICPSA AGM

raymo19

Hi Lads,
Any word on the ICPSA Agm last night just wondering if there were any changes etc.

Kind Regards
Raymo

SARZY

No changes I heard. Quiet enough I'm told. The usual.

charlie10

i heard it got a bit "hot under the collar" there .

SARZY

Checked back with my buddy.
Seems on fella had a rant with the microphone and then walked out.
Seems there was a mix up in a vote and it was done a second time.

Thats just usual stuff at any sports club agm in my opinion.

kemen

no real changes, lots of debates was lively enough. first show of hands didnt go down well with some so went to a poll, all 3 positions were a draw so chairman had final decision.. new treasurer i wish him luck. joe hollingsworth received the massey sheild. enda clerkin and garry mannering received presentations after standing down. after that all was over and finished up got very late.

no12

I heard the National Executive wouldn't hold a candle to Bertie Ahern with their behaviour last night. An absolute farce of an association.

kemen

there was a few on the floor that musta had a few tips from bertie more so than the board.... whats wrong with the association in your opinion

no12

kemen wrote: »

there was a few on the floor that musta had a few tips from bertie more so than the board.... whats wrong with the association in your opinion

Well I wouldn't agree with that statement at all. Their is so much wrong with it I would not know where to start and I would be better keeping my opinions to myself rather than airing them in a public forum for fear of a legal backlash.

With regard to the voting procedure the Executive would/should not be in power if their "phantom clubs" were not permitted to vote and if they had not blocked the vote of another few clubs, the Executive themselves should not be permitted to vote either IMO. It was very underhand tactics and talking to alot of long serving ICPSA members after, they were disgusted with the behaviour of the Executive and lost an awful lot respect for the association as a whole.

SARZY

Theres always been battles in that organisation. It used to line up as trap versus sporting, it has been north versus south, one time it was commercial grounds versus member clubs and now it seems its those in favour of a full time Gen Sec and those against.
It fell the way it fell the other night and its set up for the next year.

All the other battles had a final solution in the end that endured and so will this one.
Only question is, who will get their act together before the next agm.

Had a full run down of events with my buddy and it was a vote issue that caused the most trouble.
You know in most organisations if you dont have a vote, then you are not invited to attend.
But the icpsa is different in every way from most organisations.

raymo19

Hi All,
Thanks for replys. I just got a full rundown from a friend that attended. It seems there were right to vote irregularities all-righ. I heard that the top table spoke about "The Rogue Element within the organisation". From what Im hearing this rogue element is now 70 % of the total membership.MMMMMM ?

Thanks lads

kemen

the executive phantom clubs??thats a bold statment.. if the money is paid an everything is legit whats the prob?? as for the clubs that werent aloud vote, thats not the case you'll find that they werent entitled to vote because they were ineligible to vote.. rules are rules
i myself wz disgusted with some of the stuff that came from the floor!!
anyway whats done is done so we'll just have to get over it...

Sandyman

Hi All,
I just heard that last weeks re-elected Executive have started to show their teeth. They have already threatened pulling shoots from clubs that did not support them last week. What will it take to get rid of this crowd and leave shooters/shooting alone.

Thanks
Sman

no12

Sandyman wrote: »

Hi All,
I just heard that last weeks re-elected Executive have started to show their teeth. They have already threatened pulling shoots from clubs that did not support them last week. What will it take to get rid of this crowd and leave shooters/shooting alone.

Thanks
Sman

I heard the same myself yesterday a few of the heavies approached a club in the West using bully boy tactics and threatening to pull shoots etc. Disgraceful behaviour from a crowd that say they are to "promote and develop the sport of clay pigeon shooting in Ireland" Yea right

kemen

im sure thats far from true,, but if all is so green in your garden what was the proposal i heard about having a few sporting selection shoots run by 1/2 clubs in a certain area???? thats not very fair IMO it leaves approx 15 shoots pointless.. and is defo not promoting the sport.. its time to move on if a few people got their way we'd still be in lucan voting

raymo19

Hi Kemen,
Thats typical of the **** we as members are being fed by this now puppett executive. The sporting task group wanted "all clubs" to tender for these 6 or so shoots and the shoots themselves to be run over no less than 12 stands. These shoots were to be "properly" inspected and adjusted if required in advance of the shoots. This would ber fairer than the current selection process which allows club members to practice the stands midweek before shoots, some commercial grounds dont change the stands at all. This will allow all members have a fair chance instead of the current situation where he who shoots the most has a better chance of getting on the team. I would not care about having to travel to Knocknagoshel for a selection shoot as long as I have adequate notice and know that this will be a quality shoot. The ICPSA have for far too long being focused on revenue generation and not shoot quality. Outcome where has the 1000 members gone since 2007/2008. The sooner these puppets are removed the better for the ICPSA. Hopefully the organisation wont split in the meantime.

Regards
Raymo

kemen

i get what your sayin but you cant compair 2007/8 today,, how many kreighoff's did u see then compaired to now... yoyos just not their so you cant blame the association for that 1

cavan shooter

Will the ranks of the CSI shooters be expanding.....and one doesn't need to fork out €120.

Half-cocked

cavan shooter wrote: »

.....and one doesn't need to fork out €120.

CSI doesn't have the huge expense of fielding a load of international teams every year. It's a matter of deciding whether to support Irish shooting at an international level, or just shoot domestic flapper shoots. ICPSA members have been cleaning up on the international circuit in the last few years (a European DTL champion, an Olympic Skeet team home international win, juniors winning gold in FITASC, just to name a few), this couldn't happen without the support of the membership paying their fees and entering registered shoots. It'd be an awful shame to see all this success grinding to a halt just because there is disagreement as to who should sit at the top table.

raymo19

Half-cocked wrote: »

CSI doesn't have the huge expense of fielding a load of international teams every year. It's a matter of deciding whether to support Irish shooting at an international level, or just shoot domestic flapper shoots. ICPSA members have been cleaning up on the international circuit in the last few years (a European DTL champion, an Olympic Skeet team home international win, juniors winning gold in FITASC, just to name a few), this couldn't happen without the support of the membership paying their fees and entering registered shoots. It'd be an awful shame to see all this success grinding to a halt just because there is disagreement as to who should sit at the top table.

Hi Half Cocked ,
I totally agree with what you are saying but there are those at the top table taking a totally vendictive approach to various clubs be they sporting or Trap.(Look at what happened in the west las week) There are clubs operating outside the ICPSA for these similar vindictive reasons. Why is this happening ? Something is wrong within the Organisation. The messing that occurred at the agm totally tipifies the arrogance of those sitting at the top table. I hope to see irish shooters competing at the top lever but if the fall off in membership continues there will be no funds available for young irish shooters. There was 1500 members 3 years ago now there are 700. I do realise that some of this is economic however there are a large number of shooters fed up with the icpsa and how it is run. Just look at the statistics in the north of ireland. There is over 2000 members in the UCPSA and they have a religious divide to contend with, they have 1/3 our population. There are also Irish International irish shooters reluctant to join the ICPSA. Something is grossly wrong and the sooner it is weeded out the better.

Thanks Raymo

kemen

what exactly happened in the west last week??

Half-cocked

raymo19 wrote: »

There was 1500 members 3 years ago now there are 700.

Not quite correct - a peak of approx 1150 in 2007 down to about 970 now. Nowhere near as big a drop as some would have us believe, but it is still worrying that so many have left:mad:

Sandyman

hi lads,
<mod snip>The whole membership know exactly what happened last week. I have spoken to a-lot of members(30 years ++) since the AGM and there has been a massive realisation that there are very large problems within the organisation. One long standing member and international shooter was disgusted with the going's on. He has now woken up to reality.
I would not wish to be in the current executive's boots they should have seen the backlash coming and stood aside to a man. If you take the leinster League members our of the ***** those numbers would look even more pityful. I believe that the current executive do want the organisation to split and fall back onto the sports council to fund them. This will allow them to exert more control. CSI have now 350 members in three years. Csi is not the way forward but they do deserve credit for what they have done. The ***** is the way forward but it will now take another year before they can move forward in the meantime we will just have to endure and hopefully there will be something left to go forward with.

cheers(Brandy & ginger please) whose paying ?

raymo19

Half Cocked,
Its great to hear exact figures at last. Do you have a geographical breakdown of those numbers by provence ?.

Half-cocked

Afraid not, all I know is that Leinster is about 60-65% of the total membership. All clubs holding shoots get a paid up members list every week - it should be possible to get a breakdown and exact figures from that. I don't think it's a big secret, I'd imagine any member should be entitled to ask?

raymo19

I have been told that 75% of clubs in leinster voted for change last week. That means that 45%(60% by 75%) of the total membership wanted change and are based in leinster. This is a stark statistic considering that circa 50% of Both Munster & Connaught were also in favour of change. There was considerable support in Ulster also. The Executive were can count their lucky stars that the 40% rule which limits Leinsters voting power exists and that they were allowed to vote themselves. I have received alot of Private members mail and have to apologise for not answering it. I would encourage airing your own discontent.


Regards
raymo

kemen

and would you see 5 or 6 people from the same provence on a 8 member board fair raymo??? cause i certainly wouldnt... anyway how exactly do you or the any of the people who are telling you this info know what way people voted in a secret ballot??

raymo19

"The secret Ballot". How did the puppett executive know that one of their clubs in the west didn't vote for them ?. This gets better lads. I have been informed from a very reliable source through pm that over 90% of the clubs in Leinster voted for change and that that this vote was diluted due to two clubs (Wait for this) with "One Member Each" and having 2 votes each voted against change. This means that 2 members of the anti change campaign had 4 votes. There is one club in Leinster with over 100 members and they were allowed 2 votes. This is incredible. This means that my earlier statistic is infact wrong. I can now reliably say that over 50% of the ICPSA Membership is in Leinster and wanted change. Lets also remember that one of the aforementioned clubs was only recently resurrected in courtlough to upset the voting at the agm. Inrelation to 5 or 6 members of the executicve coming from leinster I couldnt care less if they were from Tory Island as long as they cared about Irish Shooting and were elected by the broad membership. This is another example of more **** being peddled to the membership by the Puppett.
Everybody at the AGM knew the way clubs voted. It was their business to know . The secret ballot just made it easier for clubs who were "spoken" to in advance vote against change.

Chopperdog 2

Raymo,
Very interesting reading.

Just to clarify a point, as a member of Courtlough, I would like to stress that this 'puppet' club to which you are referring that conveened at Courtlough has no official link with Courtlough Clay Pigeon Club or Courtlough Shooting Grounds Limited. These are totally separate entities.

The only association this other club (having no grounds of their own) had with Courtlough is that they used our facilities to shoot, as may any legally entitled people of this land.

Just to keep it all clear, lest anyone gets their wires crossed....

kemen

oh so just because leinster wanted change everything had to be changed!!!what a joke, thats just a fine example of what would happen if the 3 got in.. look after every1 in leinster an f*%k everyone else!!!

Half-cocked

raymo19 wrote: »

I can now reliably say that over 50% of the ICPSA Membership is in Leinster and wanted change.

I don't think you can.

Firstly, how do you know that the club delegates were in fact voting the way all their members wanted? I used to be a member of 3 different Leinster clubs and the members were never consulted about what way the delegates would vote. At best the club committee would instruct them, at worst they were told to vote whatever way they wanted (I was a delegate at a few agm's and it was left to me to decide). I'm sure some clubs do consult their members, but overall, it's not representative.

Secondly, a large number of association members aren't in clubs at all (don't know what proportion now, but it used to be as high as 50%) so don't get any sort of vote. The only way you'll get a true picture of what the members want is a 1 member = 1 vote system and a 100% turnout at elections. I wonder how many of the clubs currently complaining about the democratic deficit in the association would adopt that system? It was tried a few years back and the clubs rejected it outright. So much for wanting democracy! Turkeys voting for Christmas was what they said. It seems that everyone on every side just wants the democratic system that ensures they will win themselves.

I often wonder if sporting associations as a whole would be better off picking their committees by pulling names out of a hat! Odds are you'll get at least a couple of competent people on the committee and the rest can sit back and watch them do all the work. That's what seems to happen anyway, even with all the complex voting systems and political infighting. One club (not shooting) that I was in couldn't get anyone to be Chairman. At the agm a member slipped out for a smoke and we elected him in abstentia. He put up a fight but ended up doing the job and turned out to be the best Chairman we ever had - makes you wonder;)

Half-cocked

kemen wrote: »

oh so just because leinster wanted change everything had to be changed!!!what a joke, thats just a fine example of what would happen if the 3 got in.. look after every1 in leinster an f*%k everyone else!!!

Kemen - I feel your frustration.

No one complained about the 40% rule that prevented one province taking over the association when a certain province located north of Leinster had over 50% of the votes. Leinster and everyone else was perfectly happy with the current system. Look what happened a few years back when Leinster tried to take over - court cases, members suspended, money lost to shooting.

[Mods - please delete if I'm getting too political, I'm useless at self-moderation]

raymo19

Everybody knows that the Courtlough Club and Grounds had nothing to do with the reformation of that club. That club was reformed for one reason only and it certainly wasn't for participation in shooting sports. kemen there was considerable support for change in Connaught, Munster and Ulster. The puppett keep banging on about Leinster trying to take over the fact of the matter is the largest concentration of shooters are in meath/Dublin and wexford. leinster cannot be blamed for that. If change was to happen the likely hood is that it will come from leinster. The 40% rule probably was a great idea at the time however if it did not exist there would have a devastating blow inflicted on the puppett. No matter how one looks at the voting system the bottom line is 70% in the member clubs/members wanted change and this did not happen. The unfavourable minority is now dictating to the majority of the Organisation. Outcome = division and discontent within the organisation. The only way forward within the organisation is change followed by healing and a realisation that the current mess never let occur again. <mod snip>

I have said enough.

kemen

a club has every right to join whenever it wants so give over with that 1! look if there was that much support for the opposition like you say there was they would have got in but,,, they didnt
as for that little rumour goin about last week, total bullsh!t

raymo19

Hi
Today I received a text message on my phone. Although it seemed funny at first I realised that it was not so funny afterall. The picture included two executive members in a demeening Star wars pose. It reminded me of the pictures going around of our most recent FF Taoiseach before his demise. I have just realised that the executive not only have lost the support of the membership they have lost their respect also. This is such a pity for the organisation. Kemen is that recently formed club holding any shoots in the near future ?

Regards
Raymo

raymo19

Is there any dates on the next shoot in that recently resurrected Courtlough club. Looking forward may even attend myself ?. I would especially love to meet all the members. Imagine trying to register ?. Probably take place in the Extreme carpark. Any dates yet? I suppose I should contact the puppett they may have them ?. Members should keep an eye on the amount of shoots held by this club ?. WE WILL PICK THIS UP LATER.


Regards
Raymo

Half-cocked

So a club has to hold registered shoots to be considered legit? In that case about 10 affiliated clubs don't fit the bill. When I was involved in the association at club level, it was there to promote clay shooting at all levels, not just the registered circuit. Things must have changed since then.

kemen

if you were at the agm you would have heard all the bullsh!t arguments about a few clubs not being legit and u also would have heard their response... if your lookin for someone to blame what about the clubs that cant follow the rules an were ineligible to vote.

raymo19

What is the definition of a club ?. It would be great if you could enlighten us.? You will find one word in the difinition "ACTIVELY". Now I ask you or the puppett to detail shoot dates or practice dates for that newly reaurrected club as I would like to attend ?. In relation to "registered shoots" I did not mention that. I spoke about registering. If one attends a flapper shoot anywhere in the country you have to give your name to have your score recorded.

Regards
Raymo

Half-cocked

raymo19 wrote: »

What is the definition of a club ?.

I don't know if the definition has changed since I was on a club committee (I assume its somewhere in the rules and regs on the website?), but back then a club was recognized as such if it paid its affiliation fee, all members had an equal shareholding in the clubs assets (no commercial entities) and had elected officers. All club members also had to be paid up individual association members.

I'm sure exact definitions are available on request or available somewhere on the website. I couldn't be bothered asking or looking;)

ACTIVELY can easliy be defined as putting on sunday morning practice for your own members, I don't think you need to throw open the door to the wider membership or run registered shoots to be considered promoting the sport. It's just that some clubs are more active than others. The truth is some clubs only join up for the club insurance cover. Once they are breaking a few clays the association is happy to have them.

Half-cocked

raymo19 wrote: »

Now I ask you or the puppett to detail shoot dates or practice dates for that newly reaurrected club as I would like to attend ?.

Are you a member of that club? Plenty of affiliated clubs are members only.

no12

Half-cocked wrote: »

raymo19 wrote: »

Now I ask you or the puppett to detail shoot dates or practice dates for that newly reaurrected club as I would like to attend ?.

Are you a member of that club? Plenty of affiliated clubs are members only.

I was a member of that club back in 2007 when it last ran a registered shoot. It was set up by KK and at that time he said it was being used as a vehicle to vote at the AGM. Its a one man club used for one reason and one reason only so one man can vote at the AGM. It surfaced its head at an AGM a few years ago where there was a motion to change the selection procedure for the High performance programme in relation to team selection for World Cup events. It only seems to surface when there is a motion against the Executive or change to HPP which the so called Chairman of the club was the HPP director at that time. It doesn't have elected officers has never had an AGM so if you guys still believe its a club you are bigger gobsh*%es than I give you credit for.

Half-cocked

no12 wrote: »

you are bigger gobsh*%es than I give you credit for.

Tempted to hit the report post button. We were having a civilized debate about the problems in the association but now it's degenerated to name calling. I won't be making any more posts here.

raymo19

Thanks no 12 for that very informative reply. So there you have it this club was resurrected for one reason only and that was to dilute the leinster vote. The truth is starting to come out slowly. One thing is for definite that the letter if the law (rules and regulations) was applied to the "for change camp" and was not applied atall to the puppett side.
I have been asked by a few "for change" members to stop posting to this thread as they are finding it is getting increasingly embarrasing for all concerned. I only started this thread to genuinely find out what happened at the AGM and look where it has brought us. I do respect the feelings of these members but I have to point out that it is importand that everybody knows what went on. I would also encourage anybody who gets a whiff of underhand tactics by the puppett to air it here. Atleast we can try to keep them in check. I would like to thank all contributors to the discussion both pro puppet and anti.

Kind regards
raymo

kemen

look your living of second hand info, if your so annoyed about this club your on about why didnt you attend the agm an ask all these pointless questions to the man himself.. (all these questions were answered).. at least then you have heard it all and made your own opinion instead of what you hear secondhand!
no12, why didnt you renew your membership??
raymo there was no underhand tatics used so give over..

no12

kemen wrote: »

no12, why didnt you renew your membership??
raymo there was no underhand tatics used so give over..

What renewal it was a once off payment, as I said their was no AGM no election of officers, no notice received to renew membership, there wasn't even as much as a membership card. The Chairman got to vote at the AGM, Courtlough used it as a vehicle to run a few shoots. I don't really want to go into it here but their is alot more to it I'll gladly sit down and explain the details to anyone that wants to know.

kemen

membership of a club is a one off payment?? id love if that was the case!! im a member of a few clubs and i dont have a membership card for any of them!! look a club can do what it very well likes when the affiliation is payed, theres no need for any questions to be asked because i heard them all at the agm an heard the answers from the person in charge

no12

kemen wrote: »

membership of a club is a one off payment?? id love if that was the case!! im a member of a few clubs and i dont have a membership card for any of them!! look a club can do what it very well likes when the affiliation is payed, theres no need for any questions to be asked because i heard them all at the agm an heard the answers from the person in charge

Kemen you are the minority because I know anyone that was at the meeting found the answers laughable but if that's what you believe that's your perogative your entitled to it. I know the truth and facts regarding it, I do not believe its a legitimate club. I will ask you one question if for example I wake up in the morning take a notion to set up a club on my own without a ground to shoot on say Ballygobackwards Trap club fill in the forms and pay my affiliation fee to the association out of my own pocket because I want to have a vote at the AGM would you consider me a legitimate club?? And would you consider it appropriate and acceptable behaviour from the association to allow me personally have the same rights as every other club in the country??

raymo19

Kemen no sports organisation in Irealnd has been at the receiving end of more legal challenges nor has threatened more legal's. The membership have woken up to the reality that something is grossly wrong within the organisation and legal proceedings are only a symptom of the wrongs that have been perpetrated. Its incredible what happened at the AGM by any stretch of the imagination but the only redeeming factor is that it has awoken the membership to the real problems within the organisation. Im sure you are disappointed that the control freaks and the rest of the mob have been finally rumbled and wont get away with any more bully boy tactics. Iim sorry lads I did say I would cease but Kemen seens to think that all is rosey in the garden.

Regards
Raymo

kemen

how many members were in the club when it started no12??
raymo i dont see ur point here, why was nothing said last year or the year before if things are in such bad order, at the back of its a personal agenda blown out of proportion and has gathered support by big promises made to clubs!! and if you cant see that then i dont see anymore point in adding to this, you can keep on believing the "secondhand" info your receiving

raymo19

You really dont get it do you ?. I couldnt care if my information was three month old fifth hand information. I am just making sure the everybody who types those five letters in on a search engine will know the goings at that AGM and most importantly see the arrogance displayed by the puppett and yourself. Change is coming whether or not you or the puppett accept it. I would hate to be in their shoes for the next year. I believe the general media are now starting to show an interest. That will be fun. I'm surprised the puppett have not tried to scilence you as you are making bigger fools of them.

Regards
Raymo

Sparks

raymo19 wrote: »

I couldnt care if my information was three month old fifth hand information.

We (as in, the mods in the shooting forum) do care.

Dissent isn't a bad thing in a shooting body. I had a ducks-eye-view of the shotgun blast when the NTSA went through it's fair share of dissent and strife, and it came out the far side stronger as a result of that strife. So have several other bodies, and we've never censored discussion of the grievances on here (and there are several other threads on here about dissent with the ICPSA if you use the search function, and at least one of those led to very distinct improvements for the ICPSA). Personally, I think that honest disagreements lead to a stronger sport in the long term, so long as the short term is approached equally honestly.

But there's a line between discussing a legitimate grievance and spouting hearsay to try to blacken someone's name. It's a line drawn by the Defamation Act, not by boards.ie; but we do abide by it, so do your argument a favour and stay on the non-defamatory side of the line and verify your facts.