Just changed my wheels and .. what's that noise?

antiskeptic

Just replaced original 205/55/16 shod wheels on my Audi A4 B6 with 225/40/18 shod s/hand replicas. Two of the tyres on the new wheels were knackered so I dropped into Atlas and got a pair of new tyres for the front, leaving the part worn on the rear. Got all wheels balanced.

Whilst I was there I got the tracking checked out - since it pulls a bit more heavily to the left than I imagine camber would account for. Sure enough, it's left orientated on the two front wheels but the mechanic can only adjust the drivers side since the passenger side adjuster is seized. Nice folk the folk at Atlas - doesn't charge me for the 3/4 finished tracking job

On the road, there's a sound in addition to the road noise which sounds for all the world like a wheel bearing on the way out. It's not too loud but definitely there and you can just about feel the hi-frequency vibration that goes with a wheel bearing on the way out (I've had recent wheel bearing failure experience on my last car)

But the sound wasn't there before I fitted the new wheels. And the old wheels had new tyres on them which didn't make any more road noise than these - certainly not enough to mask this new sound.

Any ideas what it could be other than wheel bearings? It's most noticeable from about 20-40mph. After that tyre noise drowns it out, or it's dissappearing for some other reason.

Would the fact that the front wheels aren't (mis)tracking in the same direction (anymore) cause such a noise?

MuppetCheck

What type of tyres did you have fitted? Cheap tyres can make those noises in my experience.

I would get the seized nut sorted though to avoid uneven wear on the tyres. I believe atlas have some mechanics too. They should have been able to help with that rather than leaving you leave like that. I understand that they may be busy but did they give you an option of getting it fixed if required?

fasttalkerchat

Sorry for stating the obvious but did you double check the wheel nuts are tight?

tl;dr Squeeze your nuts.

Justin10

Its your wheel nuts. There not tight enough.

Nissan doctor

Rochey18 wrote: »

Its your wheel nuts. There not tight enough.

Statement of fact?

Justin10

Fact

MuppetCheck

Rochey18 wrote: »

Fact

To can tell that from a post on the Internet?

Justin10

Clearly im joking, my original post came out wrong.

Back to the question. Same thing happened to me. Mite as well check your wheel nuts and hopefully that is all that is wrong

Nissan doctor

@OP, on the subject of wheel nuts though....did you use your original wheel bolts with the new wheels?

If the seat on the replica wheels that the bolts tighten against is different to the factory bolts then they can come loose. Obviously rule that our first for safety.

After that, larger tires will make more noise, especially new and/or cheap rubber. A wheel bearing is also possible as larger/wider wheels will put more pressure on the wheel bearings so if one was just starting to go then the noise could well be exaggerated by the new wheels.

antiskeptic

MuppetCheck wrote: »

What type of tyres did you have fitted? Cheap tyres can make those noises in my experience.

Possible. The two part worns were cheap and I followed suit. Actually changed my mind whilst in the waiting room but he'd already done them. Then again, I potter up and down the M50 every day so don't really need the bee's knee's in tyres.

I would get the seized nut sorted though to avoid uneven wear on the tyres. I believe atlas have some mechanics too. They should have been able to help with that rather than leaving you leave like that. I understand that they may be busy but did they give you an option of getting it fixed if required?

He was going to have a go at leaving it soaking in WD40 but I needed to get away. He showed me how many turns it would take to get it back on track (using the other side to demo) so when I free it up I'll track it myself.

This is the third time I've done business with them and I find them a good, helpful and economical crew.

MuppetCheck

Track it yourself? For the sake of it get it done properly or you may cause uneven tyre wear:) 18 inch tyres are expensive so get the most out of them!

antiskeptic

I gave a good tighten by hand then an extra bit by foot. The noise was there as soon as I started off - so unless you're meant to give 'em right welly then tight enough they must be.

@NissanDoc. The bolts are original alright. How do you tell whether the dome shape of one fits the dome shape of the other?

antiskeptic

MuppetCheck wrote: »

Track it yourself? For the sake of it get it done properly or you may cause uneven tyre wear:) 18 inch tyres are expensive so get the most out of them!

I dunno. The passenger wheel is 2 degree out and that equates to a (carefully measured) 1/2 turn of the adjuster (having corrected a deliberately induced 2 degree out on the drivers side).

I could pay the 30 quid (and the hour's wait). Or give it a half a turn myself. The tyres weren't that expensive

Nissan doctor

antiskeptic wrote: »

I gave a good tighten by hand then an extra bit by foot. The noise was there as soon as I started off - so unless you're meant to give 'em right welly then tight enough they must be.

@NissanDoc. The bolts are original alright. How do you tell whether the dome shape of one fits the dome shape of the other?

There as normally 2 types, tapered and radiused(curved or straight).

If the wheel bolts are tapered then the wheels need to have tapered seats and vice versa.


Edit: A sh1tty pic found online.....the difference is visible though.

http://www.raceways.co.uk/Wheel_bolts_14mm_1.5_thread,_taper_and_radius_seating.htm


As for tracking it yourself....proper alignment is done to within fractions of a degree so doing it by eye or judging how many turns is very inaccurate. Larger wheels also exaggerate any mis-alignment so I'd say get it done properly.

MuppetCheck

Well on my own car a decent tyre is about €180. For front alignment I'd pay that fee rather than it wearing out a lot earlier. I once (stupidly) missed getting alignment done because I was in a rush and got under 10k km from a tyre. I was sickened. Was it the suppliers advice to do it yourself?

antiskeptic

Nissan doctor wrote: »

There as normally 2 types, tapered and radiused(curved or straight).

If the wheel bolts are tapered then the wheels need to have tapered seats and vice versa.

Gotcha, thanks.

Both the bolt heads and the wheel holes are curved/radiused. Can I assume the radiusesusus are standard for both? I'm not sure how I could tell if they were slightly different. Not without complicated measurement anyway.

As for tracking it yourself....proper alignment is done to within fractions of a degree so doing it by eye or judging how many turns is very inaccurate. Larger wheels also exaggerate any mis-alignment so I'd say get it done properly.

Appreciated.

The bandwidth on the machine for correct tracking is 0.5 degrees (I was with him when he was doing it). The accurately measured (and soon to be executed once I free up the darn thing) half a turn will subtract a nominal 2 degrees with a margin of 0.25 degrees either side of middle of the bandwidth.

If a half a turn represents 2 degrees, then 1/16 of a turn represents 0.25 degrees. That wouldn't be to difficult to work within (I'm familiar with spannering).

Ah sure. Half the fun is being able to do stuff yourself..

antiskeptic

MuppetCheck wrote: »

Well on my own car a decent tyre is about €180. For front alignment I'd pay that fee rather than it wearing out a lot earlier. I once (stupidly) missed getting alignment done because I was in a rush and got under 10k km from a tyre. I was sickened. Was it the suppliers advice to do it yourself?

You can knock a hundred quid off that price

The supplier didn't really advise. He said they could fix it given time and money but was happy to let me investigate how many turns it'd take to right things.

Nissan doctor

antiskeptic wrote: »

Gotcha, thanks.

Both the bolt heads and the wheel holes are curved/radiused. Can I assume the radiusesusus are standard for both? I'm not sure how I could tell if they were slightly different. Not without complicated measurement anyway.






Appreciated.

The bandwidth on the machine for correct tracking is 0.5 degrees (I was with him when he was doing it). The accurately measured (and soon to be executed once I free up the darn thing) half a turn will subtract a nominal 2 degrees with a margin of 0.25 degrees either side of middle of the bandwidth.

If a half a turn represents 2 degrees, then 1/16 of a turn represents 0.25 degrees. That wouldn't be to difficult to work within (I'm familiar with spannering).

Ah sure. Half the fun is being able to do stuff yourself..

They must have been using the laser sight gauges so, should really be having proper 4 wheel computer alignment done on a car like that.

TestTransmission

antiskeptic wrote: »

You can knock a hundred quid off that price

You must of bought some very cheap tyres so

Nissan doctor

TestTransmission wrote: »

You must of bought some very cheap tyres so

With tyres that cheap the alignment will make little difference to the handling anyway:P

MuppetCheck

antiskeptic wrote: »

You can knock a hundred quid off that price

The supplier didn't really advise. He said they could fix it given time and money but was happy to let me investigate how many turns it'd take to right things.

You can knock the price down but you get what you pay for in most instances.

I still think allowing you to look into how to track your car yourself is a little silly. It won't be right and I hope you were told so:)

TestTransmission

Nissan doctor wrote: »

With tyres that cheap the alignment will make little difference to the handling anyway:P

Never made any sense to me, why spend the money on bigger alloys if you're not willing to spend the money on decent tyres.€80 for that size, they gotta be ****.

antiskeptic

TestTransmission wrote: »

Never made any sense to me, why spend the money on bigger alloys if you're not willing to spend the money on decent tyres.€80 for that size, they gotta be ****.

I gather the point of bigger wheels is to permit lower profile tyres which in turn permits better handling through lesser amounts of flexible sidewalls?

Which isn't uppermost in the mind of the vast majority of drivers. It's the nice looks their looking for. I can make the switch from oul fella wheels to something tastier for a couple of hundred quid (once I sell the old wheels which have new tyres on them). Why not?

I plod up and down the M50 in commuting traffic nigh on most of the tyres life. And even if pushing it a bit it will be only a bit. Not a lot of point in shoeing the car in performance tyres that I can see at least.

Gary ITR

antiskeptic wrote: »

I plod up and down the M50 in commuting traffic nigh on most of the tyres life. And even if pushing it a bit it will be only a bit. Not a lot of point in shoeing the car in performance tyres that I can see at least.

Why? Does it not rain on the M50? Never needed to jam on on the M50? Not being smart fella but the tyre is the only part of the car that touches the road

They don't have to be 'performance' tyres but something someway decent would suffice

Tea 1000

I had a set of alloys back about 10 years ago that I had an incident with a (pothole) crater and split my tyre and dented the rim. Got the rim heat treated and tapped back out by an alloy repair guy. New tyres and all wheels balanced and there was always a sound of what was like a bearing going after that.
There's a chance that might be what's wrong in your case.

antiskeptic

Nissan doctor wrote: »

With tyres that cheap the alignment will make little difference to the handling anyway:P

Compared to the bucket-of-lard Escort I stepped out of and the more delicately-poised motorcycle I stepped off of, this is a dream...

antiskeptic

Tea 1000 wrote: »

I had a set of alloys back about 10 years ago that I had an incident with a (pothole) crater and split my tyre and dented the rim. Got the rim heat treated and tapped back out by an alloy repair guy. New tyres and all wheels balanced and there was always a sound of what was like a bearing going after that.
There's a chance that might be what's wrong in your case.

Wonder what the mode-of-noise generation was. I'd have to live with it in this case..

antiskeptic

Gary ITR wrote: »

Why? Does it not rain on the M50?

I'll dodge the drops. Promise

Never needed to jam on on the M50?

Can't remember the last time I had to jam on anywhere. 25 years on a motorcycle does that to you. You either get very good at reading well ahead. Or you do yourself an injury.

Not being smart fella but the tyre is the only part of the car that touches the road

True. I shod my bike with the very best money could buy (you're talking 400-500 quid a pair fitted and getting 15k miles from them). I'd also junk a tyre if it was punctured - which happened to me on a two week old tyre once

But this is different. The need for the absolute best tails off due to other factors influencing overall stoppability. Like reading what's happening on the road or driving at a safe distance. Or cruising at 60 instead of 70. It's not that better tyres wouldn't improve on this but it's a case of diminishing returns.

antiskeptic

Nissan doctor wrote: »

They must have been using the laser sight gauges so, should really be having proper 4 wheel computer alignment done on a car like that.

There was a square faced apparatus attached to each tyre with lots of polka-dots on it. Then there was a pair of cameras, one each on the end of a car-width boom, picking up on 4 sensors on the square plate. I gather they did the front pair and rear pair separately.

Is this a laser site gauge set up? They are charging 50 quid for 4 wheels alignment and were planning to charge me 30 for the front two (the rear were okay). They didn't charge for checking it out in the first place nor for the fact they couldn't complete the job. Which I found refreshing.

Nissan doctor

antiskeptic wrote: »

There was a square faced apparatus attached to each tyre with lots of polka-dots on it. Then there was a pair of cameras, one each on the end of a car-width boom, picking up on 4 sensors on the square plate. I gather they did the front pair and rear pair separately.

Is this a laser site gauge set up? They are charging 50 quid for 4 wheels alignment and were planning to charge me 30 for the front two (the rear were okay). They didn't charge for checking it out in the first place nor for the fact they couldn't complete the job. Which I found refreshing.

Which branch do you deal with?

Thats the 4 wheel computer/camera alignment. It's measuring ability is down to 0.05mm if used on its most accurate setting.

With regards to the tyres, the difference between the cheapest Chinese stuff(what you will have got for €80) and even mid range tyres like hankook or kumho is beyond night and day. They can actually create an emergency stop/swerve situation from what would be a little bit of uneventful late braking on branded tyres.

Larger, wider tyres will also give better grip in most situations then comparable smaller tyres but its far from guaranteed that you will improve the handling.

antiskeptic

Nissan doctor wrote: »

Which branch do you deal with?

Arrondissment 11 (a.k.a. Finglas)

Thats the 4 wheel computer/camera alignment. It's measuring ability is down to 0.05mm if used on its most accurate setting.

Dunno what setting he had it on. The display was a bit like a section of a clock. There was a red line running from centre dial to about 2 o'clock (matching the 2 degrees it was out) And there was a green band centred on 12 o'clock that ran from perhaps 11.30 to 12.30. He was aiming to get it in that zone.

A half a turn might not land you at 12 on the button. But it would land you within the green.

With regards to the tyres, the difference between the cheapest Chinese stuff(what you will have got for €80) and even mid range tyres like hankook or kumho is beyond night and day. They can actually create an emergency stop/swerve situation from what would be a little bit of uneventful late braking on branded tyres.

I gather their replica Triangles. The one's on the back are called Infinity or Eternity or some such. Perhaps that refers to the stopping distance

I'll give a go at some emergency wet braking once I've worn the newness off them. If they're really that bad I'll flog em to some other poor sod junk them.

With all these recession-hit folk skating around on plastic tyres, it's going to start feeling like motorcycling again - it's the other clown who'll do you in.

Larger, wider tyres will also give better grip in most situations then comparable smaller tyres but its far from guaranteed that you will improve the handling.

I don't plan on pushing any limits. It's a bit of a barge of a yoke in any case. The turbo's handy for a bit of overtaking or making a gap in the traffic but that'll be about the size of it. I'm not all that interested in car driving - I'll remain a motorcyclist in spirit til death us do part

antiskeptic

@Nissandoctor

You were talking about cone/domed wheel bolts. Mine are domed and I need to buy longer ones. Are all the curved bolts the same such that I can just pick the length I want and fire away?

Ta

tossy

antiskeptic wrote: »

Just replaced original 205/55/16 shod wheels on my Audi A4 B6 with 225/40/18 shod s/hand replicas.

You have said it yourself OP,you do not know what you are buying with second hand reps.

It could be cheap tyres for sure,also the right wheel nuts could be an issue.Another point to note when fitting reps is spigot rings, these are little spacers usually made of metal or plastic that sit inside the center bore of the wheel to make sure it sits perfectly centered on the hub if these were missing then you would get vibration - not a good thing.

antiskeptic

tossy wrote: »

You have said it yourself OP,you do not know what you are buying with second hand reps.

Same could be said of anything I suppose.

It could be cheap tyres for sure,also the right wheel nuts could be an issue.

On that point: the original wheel bolts are domed and so are the wheel holes. Are domes standard or might these differ?

Another point to note when fitting reps is spigot rings, these are little spacers usually made of metal or plastic that sit inside the center bore of the wheel to make sure it sits perfectly centered on the hub if these were missing then you would get vibration - not a good thing.

The wheels don't have these spacers but the machined hole in their centres fit perfectly snugly over a boss protruding from the hub