Ireland remains a Catholic Country. (well 84% are)

qrrgprgua

I See the usual bias against the Church in Journal.ie... (no surprise).


http://www.thejournal.ie/census-2011-surge-in-non-religious-but-84-per-cent-remain-catholic-400443-Mar2012/


But the stats show that the Catholic Population in Ireland has infact increased.

he actual number of Catholics increased by almost 180,000 due to the overall population increase.


Goes to show that the "Polls" on boards.ie have nothing to do with reality.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056589887#

:pac::pac:



HERE ARE THE STATS THE PEOPLE GAVE!!!!

http://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/census/documents/census2011pdr/Census%202011%20Highlights%20Part%201.pdf

Liamario

qrrgprgua wrote: »

Goes to show that the "Polls" on boards.ie have nothing to do with reality.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056589887#

:pac::pac:

Goes to show the census has nothing to do with reality :pac:

amacachi

qrrgprgua wrote: »

But the stats show that the Catholic Population in Ireland has infact increased.

I'm sure that's reflected in the numbers going to mass every week.

qrrgprgua

amacachi wrote: »

I'm sure that's reflected in the numbers going to mass every week.

Well I did think numbers would go down.. But the church I go to actually increased.

Dotsie~tmp

I think the "Pols" of Poland helped more than anything. Anyway what do you propose to do with this crushing mandate?

qrrgprgua

Liamario wrote: »

Goes to show the census has nothing to do with reality :pac:

Why would you put Catholic if you are not? Why would you bother lying?

wandatowell

How many are actually practising Catholics??

I would guess alot less.


And Ireland will always be a "Catholic Country" and tbh that means very little in todays society unfortunately.

CdeP

Why does the religion of your compatriots matter to you, OP?

If you yourself are a Catholic, and I assume you are, is that not that enough?

qrrgprgua

Dotsie~tmp wrote: »

I think the "Pols" of Poland helped more than anything. Anyway what do you propose to do with this crushing mandate?

Maintain Religous Education in schools for one...... We have a mandate for it!!

qrrgprgua

CdeP wrote: »

Why does the religion of your compatriots matter to you, OP?

If you yourself are a Catholic, and I assume you are, is that not that enough?

It is!./.. As long as Micheal Nugent secularists/Atheist agenda is not shoved down my Throat..

Liamario

qrrgprgua wrote: »

Why would you put Catholic if you are not? Why would you bother lying?

Don't be so naive. Half of the siblings in my family alone; put catholic down when they're not!

I suppose it all goes down to how you define a catholic.
My definition of a catholic would be someone who closely follows the teachings of the catholic church.
Your definition possibly and what appears to be that of a huge number of "catholics". Is someone who does the baptism and the communion etc... and sees them as opportunities to party/keep up with the joneses; rather than religious rituals.

qrrgprgua

Liamario wrote: »

Don't be so naive. Half of the siblings in my family alone; put catholic down when they're not!

I suppose it all goes down to how you define a catholic.
My definition of a catholic would be someone who closely follows the teachings of the catholic church.
Your definition possibly and what appears to be that of a huge number of "catholics". Is someone who does the baptism and the communion etc... and sees them as opportunities to party/keep up with the joneses; rather than religious rituals.

You could say the same for many people who call themselves Atheist/Agnostic. As them why and they don't have much to back it up.


What do you want to be put on a Census??

Are you Catholic.. YES

Are you sure you are Catholic. YES

Come on.. Are you 100% sure you are catholic.


Its important. If you are not Catholic you should not say you are. The Statistics will held as a reason to continue to have Religious Education in Ireland.

PDN

qrrgprgua wrote: »

Its important. If you are not Catholic you should not say you are. The Statistics will held as a reason to continue to have Religious Education in Ireland.

Why? Is it any more moral to discriminate in favour of an 84% majority than it would be to discriminate in favour of a 51% majority?

The principle for taking religious indoctrination out of publicly funded schools is equally valid irrespective of what percentage belongs to each religion.

HamletOrHecuba

wandatowell wrote: »

How many are actually practising Catholics??

I would guess alot less.


And Ireland will always be a "Catholic Country" and tbh that means very little in todays society unfortunately.

How many of those who actually go to Mass Sunday believe in that Eucharist is the Body and Blood of Christ under the appearances of Bread and Wine?

I would guess not a lot.

What this survey shows it what a shallow idea a lot of Irish people have about what it means to be Roman Catholic.

Liamario

qrrgprgua wrote: »

You could say the same for many people who call themselves Atheist/Agnostic.

No, you couldn't.
For one, atheism is not a belief (I'm not going into that- as it has been explained why it's not a belief countless times by better men/women than I).

Also, in a great deal of cases in this country. People aren't born into atheism. They are indoctrinated at an early age and then later in life, they realise that god does not exist or at the very least; there is zero evidence of god's existence. So, they make a decision and have actually thought about it.

HamletOrHecuba

PDN wrote: »

Why? Is it any more moral to discriminate in favour of an 84% majority than it would be to discriminate in favour of a 51% majority?

The principle for taking religious indoctrination out of publicly funded schools is equally valid irrespective of what percentage belongs to each religion.

No its not equally valid at all if you believe democracy that is.

darjeeling

qrrgprgua wrote: »

Its important. If you are not Catholic you should not say you are. The Statistics will held as a reason to continue to have Religious Education in Ireland.

I hope that education policy is based on better information than an ambiguous religious head count.

If you want to know how parents want their children's schools run, then you have to ask them just that, and not ask them what their religion is instead.

PDN

darjeeling wrote: »

If you want to know how parents want their children's schools run, then you have to ask them just that, and not ask them what their religion is instead.

And that would be democracy.

jackdock88

I'd say you could think of "selection bias" when it comes to polls on this site!

qrrgprgua

HamletOrHecuba wrote: »

How many of those who actually go to Mass Sunday believe in that Eucharist is the Body and Blood of Christ under the appearances of Bread and Wine?

I would guess not a lot.

What this survey shows it what a shallow idea a lot of Irish people have about what it means to be Roman Catholic.

I always find it amazing when I present the facts how to some they can't be accepted.

I will lobby to get your question included in the next census.

dlofnep

My two brothers and two sisters put down Catholic, and the only time they see the inside of a Church is for weddings and funerals.

That number is clearly out of touch with reality. Practicing Catholics are in the minority.

uncleoswald

I was taking to someone on this issue who claimed to be catholic but believed it unlikely that Jesus existed and even if he did that he was just a guy and not the son of god. Very smart person too, to her it was a cultural thing and not a religious one and wouldn't agree with my claims that she couldn't be catholic without such beliefs. I'm not sure her pope would agree but sure how many catholics in Ireland these days actually listen to him?

oceanclub

uncleoswald wrote: »

I was taking to someone on this issue who claimed to be catholic but believed it unlikely that Jesus existed and even if he did that he was just a guy and not the son of god. Very smart person too, to her it was a cultural thing and not a religious one and wouldn't agree with my claims that she couldn't be catholic without such beliefs. I'm not sure her pope would agree but sure how many catholics in Ireland these days actually listen to him?

I remember seeing two polls about religious attitudes in Spain which, if true, actually mean that a sizeable proportion of Spanish who label themselves "Catholic" _don't actually believe in a god_.

The problem is that people born in to the religion who considers themselves culturally or very loosely affiliated to Catholicism will select that option by default - even if, by any standards, they're not.

P.

Galwayguy35

dlofnep wrote: »

My two brothers and two sisters put down Catholic, and the only time they see the inside of a Church is for weddings and funerals.

That number is clearly out of touch with reality. Practicing Catholics are in the minority.

A census is just a question about which religion you are part of, its not about how many times you go to mass in the year. So it is reality as most people still regard themselves as Catholic.

qrrgprgua

darjeeling wrote: »

I hope that education policy is based on better information than an ambiguous religious head count.

If you want to know how parents want their children's schools run, then you have to ask them just that, and not ask them what their religion is instead.

Yes we should.. I am 100% sure if we have a referendum religious education in schools that it would be passed.

But back to the topic at hand.. if 84% of the population is ok saying they are Catholic... Does anyone honestly believe that if we had a second question.. Do you believe that your faith should be taught in schools it would be any less?

Well why not vote on it?

dlofnep

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

A census is just a question about which religion you are part of, its not about how many times you go to mass in the year. So it is reality as most people still regard themselves as Catholic.

It doesn't mean that they are Catholic however. They just put it down out of convenience, and out of habit. The majority of the people do not practice Catholicism, and by that standard - they are not Catholic.

But hey - if the Catholic church wants to claim people who don't actually practice it's doctrine as one of their own, by all means - go for it.

dlofnep

And moreover - Ireland is not a catholic country. We are a secular country. There is no official state religion.

HamletOrHecuba

qrrgprgua wrote: »

I always find it amazing when I present the facts how to some they can't be accepted.

I will lobby to get your question included in the next census.

Well surely being a Roman Catholic actually means believing in certain things?

Look at how many people in this country support "gay marriage". There is no way this country is 80 per cent Roman Catholic if those words are going to mean anything at all.

HamletOrHecuba

dlofnep wrote: »

And moreover - Ireland is not a catholic country. We are a secular country. There is no official state religion.

There was never a state religion.

We are now most definitely a secular society though.

qrrgprgua

dlofnep wrote: »

That number is clearly out of touch with reality. Practicing Catholics are in the minority.

Well as Usual it seems us Irish make ourselves out to be fools.. Or maybe we are catholics.

I know many people who were lapsed Catholics. But who came back to their faith at different moments and remained Faithful.

Reality its.. 84% of people said they were Catholic.

qrrgprgua

HamletOrHecuba wrote: »

There was never a state religion.

We are now most definitely a secular society though.

Article 44.1.2: The State recognises the special position of the Holy Catholic Apostolic and Roman Church as the guardian of the Faith professed by the great majority of the citizens.

It has been amended. And I don't agree we should have a state Religion. Church and State should be separate. But it was pretty much a state religion.

Galwayguy35

dlofnep wrote: »

It doesn't mean that they are Catholic however. They just put it down out of convenience, and out of habit. The majority of the people do not practice Catholicism, and by that standard - they are not Catholic.

But hey - if the Catholic church wants to claim people who don't actually practice it's doctrine as one of their own, by all means - go for it.

Why on earth would someone put it down as catholic if they arent. That makes no sense. The mass going population has dropped but most still see themselves as catholic. Much the same as protestants who would have an even smaller group who would attend their service but still get married, have funerals etc in a church.

HamletOrHecuba

qrrgprgua wrote: »

Article 44.1.2: The State recognises the special position of the Holy Catholic Apostolic and Roman Church as the guardian of the Faith professed by the great majority of the citizens.

It has been amended. And I don't agree we should have a state Religion. Church and State should be separate. But it was pretty much a state religion.

Recognizing an undefined special position that holds the state to nothing does not come close to having a state religion.

amacachi

qrrgprgua wrote: »

Well as Usual it seems us Irish make ourselves out to be fools.. Or maybe we are catholics.

I know many people who were lapsed Catholics. But who came back to their faith at different moments and remained Faithful.

Reality its.. 84% of people said they were Catholic.

And 41% claim they can speak Irish. As soon as that number is broken down a quarter of them said they never actually speak Irish and another third said they spoke Irish less than once a week.

darjeeling

qrrgprgua wrote: »

Yes we should.. I am 100% sure if we have a referendum religious education in schools that it would be passed.

But back to the topic at hand.. if 84% of the population is ok saying they are Catholic... Does anyone honestly believe that if we had a second question.. Do you believe that your faith should be taught in schools it would be any less?

Well why not vote on it?

You might well get a different answer, but I think a lot of people wouldn't think that the right question to ask.

This is an issue that has been left unaddressed for too long, but the media have now picked up on the need for debate. The census figures, when broken down by age, hint at a decline in personal religious faith amongst younger people and new parents which is partly driving the debate. More than that, I think it can't be taken for granted that religious parents want their children educated in single denomination schools.

I very much doubt we will see complete secularism in state education, with the disppearance of of state funded faith schools. I do expect, though, that we will see an increase over time in the number of non-denominational schools. In the UK, around a third of state schools are faith schools, and even France has state-funded 'écoles confessionelles', despite the state policy of secularism in education. I think Ireland will end up going down a similar route.

RichieC

I wonder do 84% of the country buy transubstantiation. I very much doubt it.

smokingman

Edited because it's easier than issuing a ban.

Which is a shame really, since I agreed with the point you were trying to make. If only you could have made it without attacking the poster or breaching the Charter.

uncleoswald

qrrgprgua wrote: »

if 84% of the population is ok saying they are Catholic... Does anyone honestly believe that if we had a second question.. Do you believe that your faith should be taught in schools it would be any less?

Yes I believe it would be a lot, lot, less. You may have difficulty in believing that people would check the Catholic box on the census and not actually be remotely Catholic but they do in their droves for a variety of cultural reasons.

johnners2981

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Why on earth would someone put it down as catholic if they arent. That makes no sense. The mass going population has dropped but most still see themselves as catholic. Much the same as protestants who would have an even smaller group who would attend their service but still get married, have funerals etc in a church.

I don't know why but at least 3 of my friends did when they don't believe in god, it frustrated me because I knew this day would happen when people are saying 84% are Catholic when it's probably much lower.

And don't forget that parents also fill out the form for a family so sometimes they're children might not believe in god but they're still put down as catholics anyway

georgieporgy

In Naas, with a population of 20,000, approx 1000 go to Mass daily in the local churches. I expect a significant number of Naas residents who work in Dublin attend Mass there. A good number of those are aged under 30.

HamletOrHecuba

RichieC wrote: »

I wonder do 84% of the country buy transubstantiation. I very much doubt it.

Its sad that this post has received an infraction.

I love Pope Benedict, I admire his writings, his sometimes almost mystical insight, his humility, his whole style I adore. I feel in his heart he loves God and wants to do good. However I seriously doubt that he will go down in history as good Pope, or even maybe any Pope at all. Most people I have talked to who go to "mainline" Catholic Churches in Ireland dont believe in Transubstantiation and frankly its evident from services that belief in the miracle of the Eucharist is lacking both in the Priests and the laity.

Of course until recently the "Mass" in most Churches calling themselves Roman Catholic in Ireland was no Mass- the words of the Lord being changed so as to render the whole affair invalid. Pope Benedict has changed that situation. Are people now receiving in their thousands unto condemnation not discerning the Body of the Lord? I hope not.

LordSutch

Well asuming that 99% of Poles are Roman Catholic, then the overall RC figures will remain very high for the forseable future, but I wonder are there any other countries in Europe where one Christian denomination (Roman Catholic in this case) dominates the population so much?

Peregrinus

Liamario wrote: »

Also, in a great deal of cases in this country. People aren't born into atheism. They are indoctrinated at an early age and then later in life, they realise that god does not exist or at the very least; there is zero evidence of god's existence. So, they make a decision and have actually thought about it.

Actually, this is changing.

The 2006 Census showed that the "no religion" category was heavily skewed towards young adults - the 15-25 was dramatically overrepresented, and the 25-35 group was also over-represented. All those no-religionsists will now be five years older. And, as they move into their reproductive years, we should start to see a cohort of kiddies who are assigned by their parents into the "no religion" category.

Up to now, most no-religionists have been immigrants, or former believers who renounced belief in adolescence or early adulthood. But we should now start to see the first generation of "cradle unbelievers" in Ireland.

As yet, we don't have the age breakdown of the 2011 religion figures. It will be interesting, when it s published, to see to what extent this process has got under way.

Hyperduck

Deo Gratia

dlofnep

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Why on earth would someone put it down as catholic if they arent. That makes no sense. The mass going population has dropped but most still see themselves as catholic. Much the same as protestants who would have an even smaller group who would attend their service but still get married, have funerals etc in a church.

They put it down out of convenience.. People may classify themselves as Catholic, but if they do not practice their faith - then they simply are not Catholic.

So, it makes perfect sense. Irish people are indoctrinated from a very young age and told that they are Catholic. This sticks with them for a considerable length of time, quite often - for life.

For example - I checked an old Myspace profile of mine a while back from when Myspace first came out and I had my religion listed as 'Catholic'. I most certainly wasn't Catholic at the time, in any meaningful sense. I didn't go to church, I had no faith.. I didn't practice Catholic teachings, and I was probably listed as Catholic in that census around that time too. It was an act of convenience... some sort of identification label. "I'm an Irish Catholic!".

You can label whomever you want as Catholic, but it doesn't make them Catholic. Either someone believes in the doctrine, and practices their faith - or they don't. By that standard, the real number is much different than what's reflected on the Census.

Hyperduck

dlofnep wrote: »

They put it down out of convenience.. People may classify themselves as Catholic, but if they do not practice their faith - then they simply are not Catholic.

So, it makes perfect sense. Irish people are indoctrinated from a very young age and told that they are Catholic. This sticks with them for a considerable length of time, quite often - for life.

For example - I checked an old Myspace profile of mine a while back from when Myspace first came out and I had my religion listed as 'Catholic'. I most certainly wasn't Catholic at the time, in any meaningful sense. I didn't go to church, I had no faith.. I didn't practice Catholic teachings, and I was probably listed as Catholic in that census around that time too. It was an act of convenience... some sort of identification label. "I'm an Irish Catholic!".

You can label whomever you want as Catholic, but it doesn't make them Catholic. Either someone believes in the doctrine, and practices their faith - or they don't. By that standard, the real number is much different than what's reflected on the Census.

Well boo hoo.

Numbers don't lie.

I'm quite enjoying a bit of triumphalism and watching atheists squirm at the figures and trying to dismiss the relevance of Catholicism (indeed religion in general) in contemporary Ireland.

Ha!

newmug

HamletOrHecuba wrote: »

Well surely being a Roman Catholic actually means believing in certain things?

Look at how many people in this country support "gay marriage". There is no way this country is 80 per cent Roman Catholic if those words are going to mean anything at all.

Eh, I think you'll find that gay marraige, and gayness in general, is still frowned upon in most parts of the country. Boards is not the national thermometer for these things.

Delirium

Hyperduck wrote: »

Well boo hoo.

Numbers don't lie.

I'm quite enjoying a bit of triumphalism and watching atheists squirm at the figures and trying to dismiss the relevance of Catholicism (indeed religion in general) in contemporary Ireland.

Ha!

You mustn't be familiar with the phrase, "lies, damn lies and statistics".

Hyperduck

koth wrote: »

You mustn't be familiar with the phrase, "lies, damn lies and statistics".

You musn't be familiar with the phrase "clutching at straws".

dlofnep

Hyperduck wrote: »

Numbers don't lie.

Actually they do. Unless you want to define what you believe a Catholic to be. I define it as someone who subscribes and practices the faith, and doesn't just scrawl it down on a piece of paper in an act of habit or convenience.

So instead of acting childish, why don't you define 'Catholic' for me?

Delirium

Hyperduck wrote: »

You musn't be familiar with the phrase "clutching at straws".

You said numbers never lie, yet there is a famous phrase that proves that to be an opinion that's in the minority.