Irish Nones

ISAW

before the atheist disinformation campaign begins i would like to draw attention to the following

the Irish census 2006-2011 preliminary results

http://www.cso.ie/en/census/census2011reports/census2011thisisirelandpart1/
page 42

Religion 2006 2011 in Thousands/ change 2006-2011 / Percentage change
Roman
Catholic 3,681.4 3,861.3 4.9
Church of
Ireland 121.2 129.0 6.4
Muslim
(Islamic) 32.6 49.2 51.2
Christian 29.2 41.2 40.9
Presbyterian 23.6 24.6 4.5
Orthodox 20.8 45.2 117.4
Apostolic or
Pentecostal 8.1 14.0 73.0
Other 66.3 81.0 22.0
No religion 186.3 269.8 44.8
Not stated 70.3 72.9 3.7
Total 4,239.8 4,588.2 8.2

the above says RC grew from 3.68 million to 3.86 million
No religion (NONES) grew from 0.24 million to 0.27 million making them larger than any single non Catholic and non Islamic group.

But are Nones atheist?
I would suggest that going by US surveys they are not!

American Nones: The Profile of the No Religion Population
http://commons.trincoll.edu/aris/publications/american-nones-the-profile-of-the-no-religion-population/

http://commons.trincoll.edu/aris/
page 11

Regarding the existence of God, do you think…?
Response Category Percentage Nones/ Percentage US Adults
There is no such thing -Atheist 7/2
There is no way to know -Hard Agnostic 19/4
I’m not sure -Soft Agnostic 16/6
There is a higher power but no personal God -Deist 24/12
There is definitely a personal God -Theist 27/70
Don’t Know/Refused N/A 7 6

so his suggests that of NONES about 7% of them are atheist and even if you inclued agnostics it becomes 7+ 35%

This would suggest 7% of 270,00
or 19,000 atheists
and
42% of 270,000
or
113,000 atheist plus agnostic.

i am even quite surprised this figure is over 100,000 equivalent to The city of Limerick which is the third of our six cities

the atheist portion is equivalent to one of our 39 large towns

It is about a eight of the number f foreign born people in Ireland
Or about the same as the number of Lithuanians plus Romanians
or those born in Northern Ireland or Britain
or a sixth of the number of Poles.
Or if all of them voted the same way enough to elect two TDs

i don't think it significantly indicates Ireland is becoming atheist.

while Nones are larger than non RC Christians they aren't by much and if you add in the 50,000 Muslims the NONES are tens of thousands smaller. And that is Nones not atheists.

Nones are concentrated around the cities of Dublin Galway and Limerick.
I'm tempted to look up the correlation with atheist TD's constituency and the decline in the Fianna Fáil vote e.g. In Dublin FF collapsed and dun Laoghaire (atheist Labour Leader Gilmore's constituency) is the largest -23 - percentage of the population who were non-Catholics in Dún Laoghaire/Rathdown, the highest in the country and FF ex leader Cowan's old constituency Offaly -9%- The percentage of the population who were non-Catholics in , the lowest in the country. (bullet points on bottom of page 43)This is Ireland – Highlights from Census 2011, Part 1

but Ill leave that to someone else

Cossax

I haven't read the American report (though I've seen you play that card before in A+A, I think) but I'm amazed that you think you could extrapolate Irish figures based on an American study and then proclaim them as valid all the while complaining about some atheist disinformation campaign.

ISAW

Cossax wrote: »

I haven't read the American report (though I've seen you play that card before in A+A, I think) but I'm amazed that you think you could extrapolate Irish figures based on an American study and then proclaim them as valid all the while complaining about some atheist disinformation campaign.

Two weeks ago in A&A
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=77633245&postcount=4

Roughly Catholicism came in at 87.3% in '06, Non religious was the 2nd biggest, at 4.2%.

Expect a small drop in Catholicism and a small rise in Non religious, maybe around 84% Catholic, 7% Non religious.

No pump priming there?

and the atheist ireland reaction
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=77840707&postcount=156

No Religion up 45% in Irish census, despite census question that favored religion

350,000 Irish people did not identify with any religion in the latest census. That’s 7.5% of the population.

as you can see Nones are 270,000 the 350,000 is disinformation!

they added in the 70,000 people who didnt answer the question!

further down you see:
Atheist (stated as a religion) has increased by 320% from 929 to 3,905
Agnostic (stated as a religion) has increased by 132% from 1,515 to 3,521

Which shows atheists are a tiny proportion of Nones.

They add more disinformation

Based on the reality of living in Ireland, including the clear decline in religious practice, the true figure for Roman Catholics is likely to be much lower than 84%, and the true figure for people with no religion is likely to be much higher than either 6% or 7.5%.

I do however agree that

The most important lesson from these figures is the need to draft future census questions in a way that we get results that reflect reality.

But i dont think when the census actually confirms that atheists are a tiny percentage of the population that will stop them claiming it isnt!


the 7% happens to agree with the percentage of US Nones who are atheist
http://commons.trincoll.edu/aris/files/2011/08/NONES_08.pdf

58% of US Nones were deist theist or dont knows
2% of US adults were atheist and a further 10% agnostic

seems comparable to me

but maybe ireland and the Us are exceptions
http://www.investigatingatheism.info/demographics.html

Zukerman in the above source says

Surveys show that the nations with the highest degree of atheism 'include most of the nations of Europe, Japan, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Taiwan, and Israel', whereas 'it is virtually nonexistent in most of Africa, South America, the Middle East, and Asia'

Penn

the above says RC grew from 3.68 million to 3.86 million

Yes, but percentage of RC fell from 86.8% to 84.2%.

As for whether or not the number of RC is truly accurate from that census, I don't believe it is. My mother was filling out our census and I got her to mark me down as No Religion. The next morning, I noticed that my father had changed it to Roman Catholic, despite the fact that I don't believe in God and do not consider myself to be a Roman Catholic. I've heard similar stories from other people, and I know at least 10 people who put down Roman Catholic just to avoid an argument with their parents despite the fact they don't believe in God and don't consider themselves to be a Catholic. I was the same in the 2006 Census. I didn't believe in God then but I allowed my mother to put me down as Roman Catholic just to avoid having to discuss it.

You really don't think this happens throughout Ireland? Out of the people I know within my age group, one, maybe two go to Mass because they actually want to. Some believe in God but don't go to Mass and don't adhere to standard RC practices like no sex before marriage and not using contraceptives etc. And most have no belief or simply don't care. Yet nearly all of them marked down Roman Catholic.

84.2% Roman Catholic in this country. I honestly doubt that.

nickcave

As an atheist, I answered 'none'. No flak from the folks either, in fairness to them.

HamletOrHecuba

Penn wrote: »

84.2% Roman Catholic in this country. I honestly doubt that.

I doubt seriously doubt that in any serious sense more than 30 per cent of the population is Roman Catholic which since Vatican II has been an increasingly hard term to define anyway.

Could it be 84.2 per cent of the population or around that has a cultural tie to Roman Catholicism to the extent that they would get married in an RC Church and have their kids Baptized in one? Is that what the figure means?

Penn

HamletOrHecuba wrote: »

I doubt seriously doubt that in any serious sense more than 30 per cent of the population is Roman Catholic which since Vatican II has been an increasingly hard term to define anyway.

Could it be 84.2 per cent of the population or around that has a cultural tie to Roman Catholicism to the extent that they would get married in an RC Church and have their kids Baptized in one? Is that what the figure means?

I wouldn't go that far. It's nearly impossible to quantify how much of a belief qualifies you as Roman Catholic. Plus you have to take all age ranges into consideration. I'd say a more accurate figure would be around 70-75% (though that would be including children who did not choose their own religion)

Zombrex

nickcave wrote: »

As an atheist, I answered 'none'. No flak from the folks either, in fairness to them.

Most of my friends who no more believe in a god than Santa Clause ticked Catholic because they thought it was asking what you are baptized. Not sure where that myth came from but it seems very common. I would be very surprised if the Catholic figures were any where close to the true amount of believers in this country.

nickcave

Zombrex wrote: »

Most of my friends who no more believe in a god than Santa Clause ticked Catholic because they thought it was asking what you are baptized. Not sure where that myth came from but it seems very common. I would be very surprised if the Catholic figures were any where close to the true amount of believers in this country.

I don't remember 'ticking' anything - there was just a box to fill in, no?

And I can see why the majority of Irish people would answer the question as Catholic.

The census doesn't ask about your beliefs, nor should it. It's an exercise in determining identity, and in Ireland that identity is Catholic.

HamletOrHecuba

Penn wrote: »

I wouldn't go that far. It's nearly impossible to quantify how much of a belief qualifies you as Roman Catholic. Plus you have to take all age ranges into consideration. I'd say a more accurate figure would be around 70-75% (though that would be including children who did not choose their own religion)

Do you think that 70-75 per cent of the population believes that the Eucharist is the Body and Blood of Christ under the appearances of Bread and Wine and that Baptism is necessary for salvation? I dont. The hierarchy is interested in its own power so its happy to fudge things.

Penn

HamletOrHecuba wrote: »

Do you think that 70-75 per cent of the population believes that the Eucharist is the Body and Blood of Christ under the appearances of Bread and Wine and that Baptism is necessary for salvation? I dont. The hierarchy is interested in its own power so its happy to fudge things.

Again, the question on the Census isn't "Which religion do you follow to the letter without exception?" If people identify as Roman Catholic, that's what they are, no matter how much you or I disagree with them. The issue here is people being put down as Roman Catholic when they don't identify as Roman Catholic, in order to save from having an argument, or being put down as Roman Catholic by someone else and not being bothered to change it.

Before the Census, I would have never suggested to someone that if they don't go to Mass regularly or don't believe Noah's Ark, not to put themselves down as RC. All I wanted was for people to tell the truth, so that an accurate representation could be gotten. Instead, a lot of people just thought it wasn't worth the effort, or decided to go with a "wacky" answer like Jedi or Pastafarian.

Zombrex

nickcave wrote: »

I don't remember 'ticking' anything - there was just a box to fill in, no?

There was a range of the most popular religions with a tick box beside them, and an "Other" field where you could write in

nickcave wrote: »

The census doesn't ask about your beliefs, nor should it.

Er that is exactly what the census is asking. The question is to determine what religious beliefs the person has. "Identity" has nothing to do with it.

Seriously, where did this nonsensical myth come from? Is it some cultural Catholic hang over or something? You wouldn't get it with any other question. Oh well i'm technically 56 but I'm going to put down 21 'cause thats how I feel!

ISAW

Penn wrote: »

Yes, but percentage of RC fell from 86.8% to 84.2%.

so what?

As for whether or not the number of RC is truly accurate from that census, I don't believe it is.

but you are happy to accept a 2.6% fall as significant and valid?

My mother was filling out our census and I got her to mark me down as No Religion. The next morning, I noticed that my father had changed it to Roman Catholic, despite the fact that I don't believe in God and do not consider myself to be a Roman Catholic. I've heard similar stories from other people, and I know at least 10 people who put down Roman Catholic just to avoid an argument with their parents despite the fact they don't believe in God and don't consider themselves to be a Catholic.

what your father did was illegal; Maybe yo should report him along with all the other Catholics? i doubt there are ens of thousands of these cases of atheists being categorised as Catholics.

I was the same in the 2006 Census. I didn't believe in God then but I allowed my mother to put me down as Roman Catholic just to avoid having to discuss it.

I suggest you stand up for your lack of belief. Oh ye of little faith.

You really don't think this happens throughout Ireland? Out of the people I know within my age group, one, maybe two go to Mass because they actually want to. Some believe in God but don't go to Mass and don't adhere to standard RC practices like no sex before marriage and not using contraceptives etc. And most have no belief or simply don't care. Yet nearly all of them marked down Roman Catholic.

And they might all be; even if they dont go to mass. If the believe ther is no God they are
atheist.

84.2% Roman Catholic in this country. I honestly doubt that.

Even when the questions are changed and there is still a tiny percentage atheist I expect you will doubt that too.

Please don't claim there is a huge statistical discrepancy because atheists lied on the forms.

ISAW

nickcave wrote: »

As an atheist, I answered 'none'. No flak from the folks either, in fairness to them.

But your atheist fellow travellers think you are a minority and really most atheists lied and put down "Catholic".

Zombrex wrote: »

Most of my friends who no more believe in a god than Santa Clause ticked Catholic because they thought it was asking what you are baptized. Not sure where that myth came from but it seems very common. I would be very surprised if the Catholic figures were any where close to the true amount of believers in this country.

and the disinformation continues!

Gregor Samsa

nickcave wrote: »

I don't remember 'ticking' anything - there was just a box to fill in, no?

It was a tick (or more accurately, a scribble) unless you were writing in an option not listed. This was the section on the Census paper:

nickcave wrote: »

And I can see why the majority of Irish people would answer the question as Catholic.

The census doesn't ask about your beliefs, nor should it. It's an exercise in determining identity, and in Ireland that identity is Catholic.

The question was "What is your religion?", not "What religious background do you come from?"

Zombrex

ISAW wrote: »

Please don't claim there is a huge statistical discrepancy because atheists lied on the forms.

Why would you care if there was?

Are you trying to demonstrate some sort of agenda with these statistics?

ISAW

Zombrex wrote: »

Why would you care if there was?

Are you trying to demonstrate some sort of agenda with these statistics?

Read the OP

Zombrex

ISAW wrote: »

Read the OP

I did. You go to a lot of convoluted trouble trying to show that Ireland is not becoming increasingly atheist. I'm wondering why. Are you worried about totalitarian regimes again? Cause I thought you were done with that silliness.

Cossax

ISAW wrote: »

Two weeks ago in A&A
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=77633245&postcount=4


No pump priming there?

and the atheist ireland reaction
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=77840707&postcount=156


as you can see Nones are 270,000 the 350,000 is disinformation!

they added in the 70,000 people who didnt answer the question!

further down you see:
Atheist (stated as a religion) has increased by 320% from 929 to 3,905
Agnostic (stated as a religion) has increased by 132% from 1,515 to 3,521

Which shows atheists are a tiny proportion of Nones.

They add more disinformation


I do however agree that


But i dont think when the census actually confirms that atheists are a tiny percentage of the population that will stop them claiming it isnt!


the 7% happens to agree with the percentage of US Nones who are atheist
http://commons.trincoll.edu/aris/files/2011/08/NONES_08.pdf

58% of US Nones were deist theist or dont knows
2% of US adults were atheist and a further 10% agnostic

seems comparable to me

but maybe ireland and the Us are exceptions
http://www.investigatingatheism.info/demographics.html

Zukerman in the above source says

Why don't you go and debate that with them over there rather than responding to people who haven't posted in this thread?

nickcave

Zombrex wrote: »

The question is to determine what religious beliefs the person has.

If this is true, then the question on the census isn't at all phrased correctly.

Zombrex wrote: »

Oh well i'm technically 56 but I'm going to put down 21 'cause thats how I feel!

What do you think a 56-year-old who believes they are 21 should put down?

Gregor Samsa

nickcave wrote: »

The census doesn't ask about your beliefs, nor should it. It's an exercise in determining identity, and in Ireland that identity is Catholic.

Zombrex wrote: »

Er that is exactly what the census is asking. The question is to determine what religious beliefs the person has. "Identity" has nothing to do with it.

Here's the official explanation behind each of the Census questions. Scroll to Question 12:

Question 12 – What is your religion?

Religion is an important demographic variable and will be analysed closely along with other demographic variables in the context of diversity including nationality, ethnicity, and foreign languages. The religions listed have been chosen to cover the most frequent responses given in the 2006 census. This question does not refer to frequency of attendance at church. People should respond to this question according to how they feel now about their religious beliefs or lack thereof.

(emphasis mine)

Seems to be clearly about belief to me.

PDN

Mod Instruction
Can I remind posters (yes, ISAW, that means you!) that we do not comment on what goes on in other fora. If you want to comment on what is posted in A&A then go there and comment - not here.

i don't understand why you are caught up in trying to show there aren't more atheists

atheists arguing about this census result couldn't care less if there were more atheists - they want more honesty and less "i put down RC and my mammy changed it back when i wasnt looking" "my girlfriend put down RC even though she doesn't believe in god and doesn't practise"
why? because census figures will be thrown about for official planning and it does not reflect reality

nickcave

phutyle wrote: »

Seems to be clearly about belief to me.

That does seem to be the point of the question, in light of the details you supplied. So why are 84.1% of people answering the question of how they feel now about their religious beliefs or lack thereof as Roman Catholic?

HamletOrHecuba

nickcave wrote: »

That does seem to be the point of the question, in light of the details you supplied. So why are 84.1% of people answering the question of how they feel now about their religious beliefs or lack thereof as Roman Catholic?

This is the thing.

Doubtless this is going to be taken by many as evidence that the Republic of Ireland is overwhelming a (Roman) Catholic Christian; but is that true? I dont believe it is though I think these findings will be used by the hierarchy to reinforce what power they have left.

Morbert

I would like to see a survey asking the population whether or not they believe in God.

The census was fairly predictable. Even though the +80% catholic statistic is clearly nonsense (Church attendance, and support for same-sex marriage statistics demonstrate this), it showed a predictable drop in people calling themselves Catholic.

nickcave

HamletOrHecuba wrote: »

This is the thing.

Doubtless this is going to be taken by many as evidence that the Republic of Ireland is overwhelming a (Roman) Catholic Christian; but is that true? I dont believe it is though I think these findings will be used by the hierarchy to reinforce what power they have left.

Morbert wrote: »

I would like to see a survey asking the population whether or not they believe in God.

The census was fairly predictable. Even though the +80% catholic statistic is clearly nonsense (Church attendance, and support for same-sex marriage statistics demonstrate this), it showed a predictable drop in people calling themselves Catholic.

Why is the question "What is your religion?" and not "How do you feel now about your religious beliefs or lack thereof?" - I mean, if that's the point of the question?

The latter is much less loaded - and more pertinent, apparently.

Penn

ISAW wrote: »

Penn wrote: »

Yes, but percentage of RC fell from 86.8% to 84.2%.

so what?

As for whether or not the number of RC is truly accurate from that census, I don't believe it is.

but you are happy to accept a 2.6% fall as significant and valid?

My mother was filling out our census and I got her to mark me down as No Religion. The next morning, I noticed that my father had changed it to Roman Catholic, despite the fact that I don't believe in God and do not consider myself to be a Roman Catholic. I've heard similar stories from other people, and I know at least 10 people who put down Roman Catholic just to avoid an argument with their parents despite the fact they don't believe in God and don't consider themselves to be a Catholic.

what your father did was illegal; Maybe yo should report him along with all the other Catholics? i doubt there are ens of thousands of these cases of atheists being categorised as Catholics.

I was the same in the 2006 Census. I didn't believe in God then but I allowed my mother to put me down as Roman Catholic just to avoid having to discuss it.

I suggest you stand up for your lack of belief. Oh ye of little faith.

You really don't think this happens throughout Ireland? Out of the people I know within my age group, one, maybe two go to Mass because they actually want to. Some believe in God but don't go to Mass and don't adhere to standard RC practices like no sex before marriage and not using contraceptives etc. And most have no belief or simply don't care. Yet nearly all of them marked down Roman Catholic.

And they might all be; even if they dont go to mass. If the believe ther is no God they are
atheist.

84.2% Roman Catholic in this country. I honestly doubt that.

Even when the questions are changed and there is still a tiny percentage atheist I expect you will doubt that too.

Please don't claim there is a huge statistical discrepancy because atheists lied on the forms.

Like I said, it was 2006 when I didn't stand up for myself. I did last year and changed it back to No Religion.

I don't think there is a huge discrepancy with the types of situations I described before, but like I said, I know many people who were marked down as RC, whether by their own hand or not, when they don't believe in God. I'm not saying it would have a huge effect on the census, but it'd be more accurate. Maybe RC at 72% or something. Think about an average day walking down a busy street maybe in Dublin or Cork or even just a busy town. Do you really think 82% of them are Roman Catholic and believe in God? I doubt even 70% of the people I know would say that they definitely believed in God. The rest would either say No, or Don't care.

Zombrex

nickcave wrote: »

If this is true, then the question on the census isn't at all phrased correctly.

The question would be fine in pretty much any other country. The problem is the Irish attitude that being "Catholic" means something other than believing in and following the teachings of the Catholic church.

Imagine someone saying they don't believe in Methodism but they have a Methodist "identity". People would look at them funny. But saying you are "Catholic" some how means you are into GAA and like eating spuds, even if you think God is totally made up.

Benny_Cake

Zombrex wrote: »

nickcave wrote: »

If this is true, then the question on the census isn't at all phrased correctly.

The question would be fine in pretty much any other country. The problem is the Irish attitude that being "Catholic" means something other than believing in and following the teachings of the Catholic church.

Imagine someone saying they don't believe in Methodism but they have a Methodist "identity". People would look at them funny. But saying you are "Catholic" some how means you are into GAA and like eating spuds, even if you think God is totally made up.

It's not necessarily limited to Ireland, the vast majority of Greeks would identify themselves as Orthodox, but church attendance for many would be limited to weddings and funerals. Given Irish history and culture I don't find it surprising that such a high percentage would identify themselves as Catholic, though I would have expected it to have possibly dropped below 80%. I think people are too quick to draw conclusions from the data, and it is notable that many seemed to be out of the blocks instantly in using the figures to back up a pre-prepared position, and I'm not referring to you Zombrex, but Catholic and atheist posters have been doing this.

Benny_Cake

Zombrex wrote: »

nickcave wrote: »

If this is true, then the question on the census isn't at all phrased correctly.

The question would be fine in pretty much any other country. The problem is the Irish attitude that being "Catholic" means something other than believing in and following the teachings of the Catholic church.

Imagine someone saying they don't believe in Methodism but they have a Methodist "identity". People would look at them funny. But saying you are "Catholic" some how means you are into GAA and like eating spuds, even if you think God is totally made up.

It's not necessarily limited to Ireland, the vast majority of Greeks would identify themselves as Orthodox, but church attendance for many would be limited to weddings and funerals. Given Irish history and culture I don't find it surprising that such a high percentage would identify themselves as Catholic, though I would have expected it to have possibly dropped below 80%. I think people are too quick to draw conclusions from the data, and it is notable that many seemed to be out of the blocks instantly in using the figures to back up a pre-prepared position, and I'm not referring to you Zombrex, but Catholic and atheist posters have been doing this.

Benny_Cake

Penn wrote: »

Like I said, it was 2006 when I didn't stand up for myself. I did last year and changed it back to No Religion.

I don't think there is a huge discrepancy with the types of situations I described before, but like I said, I know many people who were marked down as RC, whether by their own hand or not, when they don't believe in God. I'm not saying it would have a huge effect on the census, but it'd be more accurate. Maybe RC at 72% or something. Think about an average day walking down a busy street maybe in Dublin or Cork or even just a busy town. Do you really think 82% of them are Roman Catholic and believe in God? I doubt even 70% of the people I know would say that they definitely believed in God. The rest would either say No, or Don't care.

Interesting, I would have predicted it to be between 70-80% as well, although closer to the upper end. It would also be informative to find out how many people actually do believe in God, as a percentage. I do find that most Irish people feel uncomfortable talking about faith or lack thereof though, so getting a straightforward Yes or No might be difficult.

Peregrinus

The debate about whether people who ticked “Catholic” are really Catholic is to my mind a bit sterile, as is the debate about whether those who tick no religion are or are not atheist.

The fact is that religious identification is a complex matter, and there is no “one size fits all” rule for determining someone’s religious identity.

There are endless claims over on A+A about whether someone who ticks “Catholic” is being truthful if he (a) practices contraception (b) doubts (or does not understand) the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception (c) rarely or never goes to mass (s) whatever. But there really is no point in someone who’s not a Catholic laying down magisterial decrees about who is and who is not a Catholic (though there is a certain amusement value in watching the exercise).

But exactly the same goes for those who tick “no religion”. That class embraces a wide variety of positions, from those who believe with evangelical fervour that there is certainly no God, to those who have quite detailed spiritual beliefs which they don’t class as a “religion” because they don’t involve any identifiably religious observance, to those who feel alienated from organised religion, to those who believe that enquiry into religious questions is futile because those questions can never be definitively answered, to those who are simply not engaged by religious questions. And no doubt other positions besides. We have no data which would enable us to say what this group does or does not believe.

An awful lot of the discussion about both the “Catholic” identification and the “no religion” identification revolves around undermining the validity of the identification. This looks deeply insecure and defensive to me. The expert on your identity is you. If you identify as Catholic, or as having no religion, the opening position has to be that that means something, that it means something significant, and that is a more appropriate identification for you than any of the others on offer. If people want to explore in more detail what your identification means, I’m afraid they’ll have to track you down and ask you. If they start out by asserting, in the absence of any evidence, what it doesn’t mean, I’m afraid that tells me rather more about them than it does about you.

This doesn’t mean that we can’t say anything useful, or draw any meaningful conclusions, from the census data. We can’t easily summarise what “no religion” means, but we can certainly draw some conclusions about the large rise in this category, and about the fact that non-Irish residents are significantly over-represented in it. Similarly, we can draw conclusions from the fact that the “Catholics”
are falling, albeit modestly, as a proportion of the population. And we can wonder why, in the space of just five years, the number of Methodists has practically halved.

Penn

I actually agree a lot with what you say, but again, the problem isn't people who identify as Catholic (yet who don't follow the church or only have a passing belief in God etc), marking themselves down as Catholic. The problem is people who simply aren't Catholic by their own admission marking themselves down as Catholic. Again, I know people with no belief in God or Jesus who were marked down on the Census as RC simply because they couldnt be bothered discussing it with parents, or because they feel like they have to pretend they are RC so they can still have church wedding and get their child baptised which is the 'done thing' in Ireland.

They didn't mark themselves down (or allow someone else to mark them down) as RC because thats what they themselves identify as, they did it simply out of laziness. I'm not saying there are huge numbers of these people throughout Ireland, but I think there would be enough that would mean the 84.2% figure is not accurate.

Like I said, before the Census, I wouldn't have tried to convince anyone not to put down RC if that's what they felt they were. All I asked of people was that they marked down what they truly felt they were rather than what they feel they wish to be seen as being, so we could get more accurate results. (To be honest, most of that was directed towards people who claimed they were going to put down Jedi or Church of the Flying Spagetti Monster "for a laugh". Idiots)

Peregrinus

Penn wrote: »

. . . I'm not saying there are huge numbers of these people throughout Ireland, but I think there would be enough that would mean the 84.2% figure is not accurate.

To be honest, I was surprised at the 84.2% figure. My personal suspicion was (and I think still is) that the high Catholic identification rate in Ireland is sustained by a significant “inertia” factor - “I certainly was Catholic at one time, I’ve moved on a bit from where I was and I’m not sure that where I am now is quite so Catholic as all that, but I’m also not so sure that it’s got to the point where it’s quite not Catholic either, I don’t take the whole thing quite so seriously as I used to, etc, etc, and the upshot of it all is that I don’t quite reach the tipping point where I’m ready to say that I’m not a Catholic any more”.

And I thought that, with all that has happened, and all that has come out, in the last few years, disgust and rage would be enough to bring a lot of people to that tipping point.

I was wrong, obviously!

So now I’ve replaced that idea with the idea that people are squaring their identification by making a distinction between Catholicism as an identity, which they cherish, and the institutional Catholic church as an organisation, which they like to knock to the pavement and kick in the kidneys. This is infuriating, I suspect, to those unbelievers who think of religious participation as being analogous to membership of a club with entrance criteria, membership rules and a membership list, so if you’re not in the club, you’re not in the club. It’ll be just as infuriating to those religionists who hold a similar understanding.

Penn wrote: »

I actually agree a lot with what you say, but again, the problem isn't people who identify as Catholic (yet who don't follow the church or only have a passing belief in God etc), marking themselves down as Catholic. The problem is people who simply aren't Catholic by their own admission marking themselves down as Catholic. Again, I know people with no belief in God or Jesus who were marked down on the Census as RC simply because they couldnt be bothered discussing it with parents, or because they feel like they have to pretend they are RC so they can still have church wedding and get their child baptised which is the 'done thing' in Ireland . . .

Well, of course, you don’t need to put “Catholic” on the census form to be married in church or have your child baptized. Nobody knows what you put on the census form.

But I think you have put your finger on something here. To some extent, people identify as “Catholic” because they want to identify with and participate in the Catholic community (by, e.g, having their children baptised) while still feeling free to complain bitterly about the church and all its nonsense, and all its crimes. They put “Catholic” on the form not because they want other people to see them as Catholic, but because they want to see themselves as Catholic because they genuinely want to participate in that community, despite having issues with the church and/or some of its teachings.

Is that inconsistent or hypocritical? Arguably, no more so than identifying as Irish while complaining about the government, Fianna Fáil, the gombeen men who run the banks and a spineless nation that allows itself to be so priest-ridden. And we do that quite easily.

Peregrinus

Peregrinus wrote: »

But there really is no point in someone who’s not a Catholic laying down magisterial decrees about who is and who is not a Catholic (

how about if the archbishop does it then?
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/archbishop-urges-lapsed-catholics-to-leave-the-faith-2959884.html

nobody wants people who aren't catholics calling themselves catholics, whether in or out of the faith. except the fearful mammies.

Peregrinus

Benny_Cake wrote: »

Interesting, I would have predicted it to be between 70-80% as well, although closer to the upper end. It would also be informative to find out how many people actually do believe in God, as a percentage. I do find that most Irish people feel uncomfortable talking about faith or lack thereof though, so getting a straightforward Yes or No might be difficult.

Actually, there is data about this - not from the census, but from the International Social Survey Program, which conducts regular surveys in 44 countries on a variety of social issues, including religion.

The most recent survey on religion in Ireland was in 2008, and it showed that 3% of (self-identified) Catholics did not believe in God (i.e, in classical terms, they were atheists), and a further 4% did not know whether there was a God, and didn’t think there was any way to find out (they were agnostics).

If we add to that a further 9% who believed in a Higher Power but not a personal god, we have an aggregate of 16% of Catholics who reject - or, at least, do not accept - the Catholic concept of god.

But this cuts both ways. 11% of people who identify as having “no religion” say that they “know God really exists and have no doubts about it”. A futher 9% do believe in God, but admit to having doubts sometimes. In fact, only a bare majority - 51% - of the no-religionists identified as classical atheists or classical agnostics; 49% expressed a degree of belief in either god or a “Higher Power”.

In short, if we were to adjust the census figures to reflect theism or atheism, the exercise would probably favour theism. There are likely to be more theists than there are people who identify with religion, and fewer atheists/agnostics than people who identify as having “no religion”.

ISAW

bluewolf wrote: »

how about if the archbishop does it then?
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/archbishop-urges-lapsed-catholics-to-leave-the-faith-2959884.html

nobody wants people who aren't catholics calling themselves catholics, whether in or out of the faith. except the fearful mammies.

i dont wish to be pedantic but we are discussing demographics of belief.

you refer i believe to "roman" catholic.
In fact all Christians believe in one church. the roman Catholics would claim that it subsists in the church of Rome. But Anglicans and orthodox could be considered "catholic" in the "universal" church sense.

also roman rite Catholics while they make up the lions share of roman catholics are not all of them; there are 23 other affiliated "churches" within the roman Catholic communion.
and then they are the syriacs copts etc.

ISAW

Peregrinus wrote: »

Actually, there is data about this - not from the census, but from the International Social Survey Program, which conducts regular surveys in 44 countries on a variety of social issues, including religion.
...

In short, if we were to adjust the census figures to reflect theism or atheism, the exercise would probably favour theism. There are likely to be more theists than there are people who identify with religion, and fewer atheists/agnostics than people who identify as having “no religion”.

heres one on northern ireland
http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/ni/religion.htm

The 1991 census returns showed that 84 per cent of people were members of one of the main Christian denominations. 11 per cent of people either refused to answer the question on religion or gave their religion as 'none'. The first table below gives a summary breakdown of the responses to the religion question. The figure of 84 per cent in Northern Ireland is significantly higher than the 56 per cent of people in Britain who consider themselves to belong to a Christian denomination.

http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/ni/religion.htm#ni-rel-01
Catholics and no religion/no response grew by 3% 1991-2001 and Protestants were down by about 4% but no major differences indicating atheism on the rise.

ISAW

Cossax wrote: »

Why don't you go and debate that with them over there rather than responding to people who haven't posted in this thread?

Because
1. i began this thread so i couldn't really respond to others in the first post could I?
2. I made a comment that i expected disinformation in that post and i was challenged on that HERE where I defended it.
3. Atheists don't like the way i post and complain about me which results in me being banned from their groups. i don't intend to get into that.
4. what I have done is post that they are wrong there and invite them to prove me wrong here.
5. If I want to respond to Richard Dawkins and he has not posted here then I will do so should I feel like it.
6. Im not going to comment on what is being discussed elsewhere on other fora i only offer it as evidence to reply to a question. though i sourced them in the A&a forum If you wish you can see the same evidence/claims being
posted at atheism Irelands website.

ISAW

Morbert wrote: »

I would like to see a survey asking the population whether or not they believe in God.

The census was fairly predictable. Even though the +80% catholic statistic is clearly nonsense (Church attendance, and support for same-sex marriage statistics demonstrate this), it showed a predictable drop in people calling themselves Catholic.

It shows more tan 90% of people born in Ireland and living in the Republic calling themselves RC. and I exclude Northern Irish, British Irish or american Irish in that i;e; all Irish citizens and all RC.

Morbert

ISAW wrote: »

It shows more tan 90% of people born in Ireland and living in the Republic calling themselves RC. and I exclude Northern Irish, British Irish or american Irish in that i;e; all Irish citizens and all RC.

You're excluding me then.

Again, it is a predictable drop in the number of people in Ireland calling themselves Catholic. More importantly, all it shows is that people are calling themselves Catholic, and since the recent survey in the UK carried out by RDFRS demonstrated that non-Christians, even atheists, will call themselves Christian, it is only reasonable to expect a similar trend here, where Catholicism has a sectarian and state history.

Benny_Cake

Peregrinus wrote: »

And we can wonder why, in the space of just five years, the number of Methodists has practically halved.

I find this peculiar myself, as I understand that some Methodist congregations are thriving, in part due to immigration. Was there a box for Methodist on the census, or did people have to write it in?

ISAW

Morbert wrote: »

You're excluding me then.

im not excluding &nyone
The census measures what it measures.

irish citizens born and living in the Republic of ireland.

Over 90% are Roman Catholic.
I dont include any Irish citizens form Anywhere outside ireland or Northern ireland
I dont include other europeans afriacans or asians or people form anywhere else.
i especially dont include the Poles who people are claiming are beefing up the figures.

It is in the census data. Over 90% are RC.

Peregrinus

Benny_Cake wrote: »

I find this peculiar myself, as I understand that some Methodist congregations are thriving, in part due to immigration. Was there a box for Methodist on the census, or did people have to write it in?

You had to write it in.

And part of the reason for the decline from the 2006 figure was that, in 2006, it was an option offered; you didn't have to write it in.

As far as I can see, the format of the religion question was the same in 2006 and 2011; a question (What is your religion?) followed by seven boxes - five for specific denominations, one for "other, write in your religion", and one for "no religion". What changed between 2006 and 2011 was the five suggested options.

In 2006, they were, in order:
- Roman Catholic
- Church of Ireland
- Presbyterian
- Methodist
- Islam

In 2011, it was :
- Roman Catholic
- Church of Ireland
- Islam
- Presbyterian
- Orthodox

I suspect, but I don't know, that the 2011 list was determined by the 2006 results, i.e. these were the top five choices in 2006, in order.

Be that as it may, the move from "suggested" to "write in" may help to explain the drop in Methodist identification. (I note that Orthodox identification enjoyed a corresponding bounce.)

It may also be that many people - particularly immigrants - participate in Methodist congregations without necessarily identifying as Methodists. They may be turning up in the census as Protestant, Evangelical or Other Christian - the latter especially if their denomination of birth isn't found in Ireland.

PDN

Peregrinus wrote: »

You had to write it in.

And part of the reason for the decline from the 2006 figure was that, in 2006, it was an option offered; you didn't have to write it in.

As far as I can see, the format of the religion question was the same in 2006 and 2011; a question (What is your religion?) followed by seven boxes - five for specific denominations, one for "other, write in your religion", and one for "no religion". What changed between 2006 and 2011 was the five suggested options.

In 2006, they were, in order:
- Roman Catholic
- Church of Ireland
- Presbyterian
- Methodist
- Islam

In 2011, it was :
- Roman Catholic
- Church of Ireland
- Islam
- Presbyterian
- Orthodox

I suspect, but I don't know, that the 2011 list was determined by the 2006 results, i.e. these were the top five choices in 2006, in order.

Be that as it may, the move from "suggested" to "write in" may help to explain the drop in Methodist identification. (I note that Orthodox identification enjoyed a corresponding bounce.)

It may also be that many people - particularly immigrants - participate in Methodist congregations without necessarily identifying as Methodists. They may be turning up in the census as Protestant, Evangelical or Other Christian - the latter especially if their denomination of birth isn't found in Ireland.

The census is pretty unreliable when it comes to statistics for any denomination that is not listed by name.

For example, after the previous census I asked members of an Assemblies of God congregation what they had stated as their religion on the census form.

About half had simply written 'Christian'. A quarter had written 'Evangelical' and others had written 'Born-Again' 'Pentecostal' or 'Assemblies of God'.

There is an increasing trend (and a jolly good trend IMHO) for Evangelical Christians to stress their Christianity rather than to stress their denominational affiliation. When moving to a new area they are much more likely to attend a church where they feel comfortable rather than to attend a church of the same denominational brand as in their last town.

So, it is not uncommon for someone to attend a Pentecostal Church in one town, then to move to another area and attend a Methodist Church. But such people would be unlikely to put 'Methodist' as their religion on a census form.

unfortunately

Peregrinus wrote: »

Actually, there is data about this - not from the census, but from the International Social Survey Program, which conducts regular surveys in 44 countries on a variety of social issues, including religion.

The most recent survey on religion in Ireland was in 2008, and it showed that 3% of (self-identified) Catholics did not believe in God (i.e, in classical terms, they were atheists), and a further 4% did not know whether there was a God, and didn’t think there was any way to find out (they were agnostics).

If we add to that a further 9% who believed in a Higher Power but not a personal god, we have an aggregate of 16% of Catholics who reject - or, at least, do not accept - the Catholic concept of god.

But this cuts both ways. 11% of people who identify as having “no religion” say that they “know God really exists and have no doubts about it”. A futher 9% do believe in God, but admit to having doubts sometimes. In fact, only a bare majority - 51% - of the no-religionists identified as classical atheists or classical agnostics; 49% expressed a degree of belief in either god or a “Higher Power”.

In short, if we were to adjust the census figures to reflect theism or atheism, the exercise would probably favour theism. There are likely to be more theists than there are people who identify with religion, and fewer atheists/agnostics than people who identify as having “no religion”.

I actually remember doing a back of the envelope calculation with this and it actually increases the number of atheists/agnostics because the the small 3% and 4% is out of a large population of Catholics.

Taking the 2006 census RC = 3,681,456
7% of them are essential atheist/agnostic = 257,702
Contrast this with the 2006 No Religion = 186,318 (even if half believe in God/higher power)

As for 84% RC, my brother is down as Roman Catholic even though I know he is an atheist. When I asked him why, he linked it to some sort of cultural Irishness. My sister never expressed a religous bone in her body and was put down as Catholic by my mother who herself doesn't practice and vacilates between no belief in god to a vague "something" in the universe.
Anecdotal evidence but it seems common enough. It seems many Irish Catholics have a similar view to atheist or secular Jews.

As for actual measurement of atheism/theism. The Eurobaromoter poll in 2005:
- 73% of Irish citizens responded that "they believe there is a God"
- 22% answered that "they believe there is some sort of spirit or life force"
- 4% answered that "they do not believe there is any sort of spirit, God, or life force"

So six years before the census only 73% had a fundamental belief that was consistent with the Catholic view of God.

muppeteer

unfortunately wrote: »

Taking the 2006 census RC = 3,681,456
7% of them are essential atheist/agnostic = 257,702
Contrast this with the 2006 No Religion = 186,318 (even if half believe in God/higher power)

So most Irish atheists are Catholics....brilliant, only in Ireland:pac:

Peregrinus

unfortunately wrote: »

I actually remember doing a back of the envelope calculation with this and it actually increases the number of atheists/agnostics because the the small 3% and 4% is out of a large population of Catholics.

Good point.

unfortunately wrote: »

Taking the 2006 census RC = 3,681,456
7% of them are essential atheist/agnostic = 257,702
Contrast this with the 2006 No Religion = 186,318 (even if half believe in God/higher power)

Actually, it’s a bit more complex than this.

The census data is for people who currently identify as Catholics.

But the ISSP data is for people who say they were raised as Catholics. (The ISSP survey doesn’t ask about current identify/affiliation).

This has two consequences:

The interesting one: by comparing the ISSP data on people raised as Catholics, and the census data on people identifying as Catholics, we can get an approximation of the number of people who were raised as Catholics but who no longer identify as such. (7% of those raised as Catholics no longer identify as such, apparently, of whom 5% now identify as having no religion, and the remaining 2% have a different religious identity.) We need to be a bit cautious about this because the “current identification” figure is from 2006 and the “raised as” figure is from 2008 but, still, there’s unlikely to have been a huge shift in that time. And the figure could now be updated by looking at the 2011 census results.

The annoying one: when we look at the “what do you believe?” data from the ISSP survey, we have to bear in mind that it can’t be projected onto the “currently Catholic” figure from the census. In particular, the 7% of atheists among the “raised Catholic” population presumably includes a fair slice of the 5% or so who were raised Catholic but now have no religion.

If we assume - I pick a figure out of the air - that half of the “raised Catholic but now have no religion” population are atheist or agnostic, that accounts for 2.5% of the 7% atheists and agnostics among the “raised Catholic” population. The remaining 4.5% are “current Catholic atheists/agnostics”. Applying that to the 2006 figure for current Catholics, we get 166,666.

But, of course, that’s hugely sensitive to my assumption that 50% of the “raised Catholic but now have no religion” population are atheist or agnostic - an assumption which, as I have freely admitted, I have plucked out of the air.

And, worse, this cuts both ways. The ISSP figures for “no religion” also refer to people who were raised with no religion, as opposed to people who currently have no religion. And, in the Irish context, I’d expect there’s a pretty big gap between those two figures. So I don’t think we can safely project the beliefs of those raised with no religion onto the groups who currently have no religion in either the 2006 or the 2011 censuses.

unfortunately wrote: »

As for 84% RC, my brother is down as Roman Catholic even though I know he is an atheist. When I asked him why, he linked it to some sort of cultural Irishness. My sister never expressed a religous bone in her body and was put down as Catholic by my mother who herself doesn't practice and vacilates between no belief in god to a vague "something" in the universe.
Anecdotal evidence but it seems common enough. It seems many Irish Catholics have a similar view to atheist or secular Jews.

As for actual measurement of atheism/theism. The Eurobaromoter poll in 2005:
- 73% of Irish citizens responded that "they believe there is a God"
- 22% answered that "they believe there is some sort of spirit or life force"
- 4% answered that "they do not believe there is any sort of spirit, God, or life force"

So six years before the census only 73% had a fundamental belief that was consistent with the Catholic view of God.

Yes. On the other hand, only 4% are unbelievers, which I think suggests that “Catholic unbelievers” such as your brother and your sister are not typical. Your mother may be, if not actually typical, then a much more common type of not-entirely-orthodox Catholic.

Peregrinus

PDN wrote: »

The census is pretty unreliable when it comes to statistics for any denomination that is not listed by name.

For example, after the previous census I asked members of an Assemblies of God congregation what they had stated as their religion on the census form.

About half had simply written 'Christian'. A quarter had written 'Evangelical' and others had written 'Born-Again' 'Pentecostal' or 'Assemblies of God'.

There is an increasing trend (and a jolly good trend IMHO) for Evangelical Christians to stress their Christianity rather than to stress their denominational affiliation. When moving to a new area they are much more likely to attend a church where they feel comfortable rather than to attend a church of the same denominational brand as in their last town.

So, it is not uncommon for someone to attend a Pentecostal Church in one town, then to move to another area and attend a Methodist Church. But such people would be unlikely to put 'Methodist' as their religion on a census form.

I think there's something to be said for the view that we can "over-analyse" religious identification. Categories like Protestant, Church of Ireland, Evangelical, etc all overlap, and some of them overlap with other categories as well. The truth is that the the Methodist church will have a pretty good sense of its own health from things like the numbers rocking up every Sunday morning, the numbers of baptisms and weddings they are asked to celebrate, and such mundane statistics like how much is being put in the collection plate, or contributed in the way of tithes. That probably tells them a lot more than the number ticking "Methodist" on the census form (or writing it in).

It's interesting, I think, that in the UK there was simply a "Christian" box to tick for Catholic, Protestand and Dissenter alike - except in Northern Ireland, where the census form offered RC, Presb, CofI, Meth, Other (pl write in) and None. We can understand why, in the Northern Ireland context,the government actually does need the denominational breakdown, but it's notable that in Great Britain they reckon they don't.

Richard

Peregrinus wrote: »

I think there's something to be said for the view that we can "over-analyse" religious identification. Categories like Protestant, Church of Ireland, Evangelical, etc all overlap, and some of them overlap with other categories as well. The truth is that the the Methodist church will have a pretty good sense of its own health from things like the numbers rocking up every Sunday morning, the numbers of baptisms and weddings they are asked to celebrate, and such mundane statistics like how much is being put in the collection plate, or contributed in the way of tithes. That probably tells them a lot more than the number ticking "Methodist" on the census form (or writing it in).

It's interesting, I think, that in the UK there was simply a "Christian" box to tick for Catholic, Protestand and Dissenter alike - except in Northern Ireland, where the census form offered RC, Presb, CofI, Meth, Other (pl write in) and None. We can understand why, in the Northern Ireland context,the government actually does need the denominational breakdown, but it's notable that in Great Britain they reckon they don't.

That was true for England:
*No religion
*Christian (including Church of England, Catholic, Protestant and all other Christian denominations)
*Buddhist
*Hindu
*Jewish
*Muslim
*Sikh
*Any other religion, write in

Wales was similar.

Scotland, however split the Christian section into "Church of Scotland", "Roman Catholic" and "Other Christian".

I can't find a copy of the NI census online, but I think it was similar to Scotland, with Presbyterian instead of CoS.