Nationwide on RTE now - also on RTE player

vicwatson

Waterford Airport feature.

xflyer

Yes watching, predictably PTC mentions the famous and mythical 'pilot shortage'. I'll bet there are several PTC graduates out there laughing ironically.

Suits

xflyer wrote: »

Yes watching, predictably PTC mentions the famous and mythical 'pilot shortage'. I'll bet there are several PTC graduates out there laughing ironically.

From the left hand seat of their A380?

You'd be laughing too if you were raking it in as a 250h DE Captain!!:eek:

cocoshovel

It did make Waterford airport look very good though you have to admit. Its a shame they didn't do anything on the Coast Guard or Fire Service there.

Suits

Had a look at the PTC section of the show there.

Edgeworth said something that I think is very telling of PTC's problems when he stated "They are starting out and need good conditions". That goes very much along the lines of what you hear from Ryanair and Aer Lingus etc as far as the short comings in handling skills in sim checks. I know a few PTC guys and they said that many guys who were back in Waterford for IR found that flying in Ireland's weather was like learning to fly all over again and many ended up unable to read weather patterns and forcast or handle the aircraft after a short time time in a Seminole here(given that they were in the sim a lot) and in truth a lot of them actually went to airline interviews with less than 20 actual hours in W European weather...another corner cut there..couple that with the fact there are reports training manuals arnt opened for ATPLs and all training is "computer based"..it's no wonder PTC grads werent wanted by EI and FR and were bombing off TR and base training accordingly. I've heard of PTC grads going around due to 10 knot gusts on the nose of an '800 at Prestwick.....:rolleyes:

An insight into the lack of real understanding of what trainee pilots need from Mike there.

xflyer

It's money, money, money suits as you seem all too aware of.

As for our weather you are correct. I've flown with guys who obviously never seen it for real. There is genuine fear. The knees give it away, they always shake. Hard to hide that. Nervousness is one thing but fear really gives it away.

Then there's the flying, they talk the talk but they can't fly. It always amazes me. How the hell did they pass all the tests?

Not just knocking PTC here. It's all over. Not their fault. It's the flying schools fault.

Suits

xflyer wrote: »

It always amazes me. How the hell did they pass all the tests?

Not just knocking PTC here. It's all over. Not their fault. It's the flying schools fault.

Have you ever seen the examiners that do their flights tests...hang around waterford and melbourne beach and you will apperantly.....everyday....

xflyer

I think it might be more practical to hang around Waterford!

Suits

xflyer wrote: »

I think it might be more practical to hang around Waterford!

Perhaps...but you wouldnt say no!:D

Stovepipe

Anyone who has learned to fly in Waterford has learned to be wary of the weather. I would also be less inclined to slag off the American experience. I did my ME/IR there and got plenty of actual in-cloud IFR, as opposed to just faffing about with blinds up.My instructors were UK trained and understood the value of actual instrument flying. That said, the stories of incapable allegedly trained candidates failing the TRs and base training are quite true. I've heard the self same anecdotes from captains and training pilots and I've heard it about candidates from Oxford. It's not always just PTC and enough PTC grads have made the grade to give the lie to the story that all PTC grads are ****e. I personally don't hold PTC in high regard but that's just me.
Apart from that, it was good to see so many familiar faces from Waterford and to know that some of the faces are now in the airlines.

regards
Stovepipe

xflyer

Have you been drinking M? Six identical posts has to be a record!

xflyer

Suits wrote: »

Perhaps...but you wouldnt say no!:D

No, and the wife hasn't been to the States yet and the kids would love Disneyworld.

Stovepipe

Stoopid computer! Now I'll have to crack open a can or three to calm down;)

regards
Stovepipe

Suits

Stovepipe wrote: »

Anyone who has learned to fly in Waterford has learned to be wary of the weather. I would also be less inclined to slag off the American experience. I did my ME/IR there and got plenty of actual in-cloud IFR, as opposed to just faffing about with blinds up.My instructors were UK trained and understood the value of actual instrument flying. That said, the stories of incapable allegedly trained candidates failing the TRs and base training are quite true. I've heard the self same anecdotes from captains and training pilots and I've heard it about candidates from Oxford. It's not always just PTC and enough PTC grads have made the grade to give the lie to the story that all PTC grads are ****e. I personally don't hold PTC in high regard but that's just me.
Apart from that, it was good to see so many familiar faces from Waterford and to know that some of the faces are now in the airlines.

regards
Stovepipe

I dont debate that there are good places to go in the US. What I take issue with is this "lets all learn to fly in Cavok still air conditions" attitude flight schools have, and how they present it as an advantage of training with them. Stating that trainee pilots need good conditions to learn to fly is BS, as they dont actually "learn" anything. Above I made the point that some grads are infact going into airline TR programs with a fATPL and 20 hours in the type of weather they will face on the routes they will fly as airline pilots. Throw a gust at them and it all goes to ****!

It isnt Florida I have the issue with...it's how flightschools misuse it!(and charge well over the odds for it too!)

globemaster1986

Suits wrote: »

I dont debate that there are good places to go in the US. What I take issue with is this "lets all learn to fly in Cavok still air conditions" attitude flight schools have, and how they present it as an advantage of training with them. Stating that trainee pilots need good conditions to learn to fly is BS, as they dont actually "learn" anything. Above I made the point that some grads are infact going into airline TR programs with a fATPL and 20 hours in the type of weather they will face on the routes they will fly as airline pilots. Throw a gust at them and it all goes to ****!

It isnt Florida I have the issue with...it's how flightschools misuse it!(and charge well over the odds for it too!)

Clearly you haven't got a clue about Florida then! Wind speeds vary a lot but can often be up to 30 knots at ground level, most common are between 10-15 knots although gusts are common enough.

As for CAVOK, storm season runs from May to October. Que torrential rain, towering CBs, much bigger than you will get here and lightning almost every evening. Not as easy as you make out

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Ah I don't entirely agree with some of the above opinions.

I trained in so called "fair weather" flight school where we got lots of CAVOK days. A major reason I chose this type of school was it allows for minimal disruption to the training timetable and so reduces the overall training cost.

This is not to say we didn't get days where we were dodging rain/thunderstorm clouds, experiencing gusty winds and strong crosswinds, or facing reduced visibility.
To be honest I don't necessarily think a pilot trained in Donegal is going to be any better than a pilot trained in Nevada.

And when it comes to eventually flying an airliner in real world conditions, having flown a Seneca in Irish bad weather really won't stand to you that much. Flying a jet is a million miles away from light aircraft flying.
Techniques and skills one may use in a light aircraft are generally redundant in a jet.

xflyer

As for CAVOK, storm season runs from May to October. Que torrential rain, towering CBs, much bigger than you will get here and lightning almost every evening. Not as easy as you make out

You can be quite sure trainee pilots among others stay on the ground in weather like that.

The reality is that schools keep their students well away from dodgy weather. They much prefer them to fly in CAVOK or even CAVU.

As I said above in the post above, I've flown with pilots who showed genuine fear when we even skirt a fairly innocuous Irish CB and almost S**t themselves when you actually enter IMC. Clearly it's a first for them.

Really it depends on the Instructor as often as not. When I trained for my IR in the States, my Instructor dived into every cloud he could, in part because in the US, it's important to log actual IFR rather than simulated and in part to give me experience. No blinds or hoods. As a result I am quite comfortable in IMC thanks to him.

The hood is not quite the same.

xflyer

And when it comes to eventually flying an airliner in real world conditions, having flown a Seneca in Irish bad weather really won't stand to you that much. Flying a jet is a million miles away from light aircraft flying.
Techniques and skills one may use in a light aircraft are generally redundant in a jet.

AF447 and the Colgan accident say otherwise.

globemaster1986

xflyer wrote: »

You can be quite sure trainee pilots among others stay on the ground in weather like that.

The reality is that schools keep their students well away from dodgy weather. They much prefer them to fly in CAVOK or even CAVU.

Well aware of that. The point was merely in response to Suits who seems to think Florida is all clear skies and people have no experience of other weather, you don't fly in that weather here either, ergo moot point!

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xflyer wrote: »

AF447 and the Colgan accident say otherwise.

Over reliance on automation was the problem with the AF incident.

Cant speak for the Colgan crew but every pilot knows pitching down is the first step to recovery from a stall. It is just as likely that a PPL holder may do the same if disorientated.

The reality is that schools keep their students well away from dodgy weather. They much prefer them to fly in CAVOK or even CAVU.

Of course they do. An instructor who advises a student pilot to fly into IMC or near a CB should be fired.

Anyway most fair weather schools would encounter CB's much more frequently that Irish schools so students would be better at identifying them and so avoiding them.
Also the updraft and turbulence felt when I flew in hot summer conditions would leave most cooler climate pilots puking their guts up.

I don't have first hand experience of PTC, although I have heard a lot of negative feedback, but my personal experience with my school was of instructors encouraging students to fly crosswind approaches and when IR training we were flying in thick icy bumpy as feck cloud. Puts hairs on your chest it does!

Suits

globemaster1986 wrote: »

Well aware of that. The point was merely in response to Suits who seems to think Florida is all clear skies and people have no experience of other weather, you don't fly in that weather here either, ergo moot point!

PTC generally only let their students up when there is still/light wind and no cloud as they lease their aircraft and are "cautious" with insurance. I'm not generalising florida I am pointing out the flaw in PTC's attitude toward flight training. I am saying that trainees need a bit of wind and crap to learn and experiance it all....PTC dont let them have that.

In Ireland you plan you ceiling generally and dodge CBs....still wind is rare enough and it is always gusty enough in winter. You are allowed fly in a bit of weather here. The like of PTC dont allow that, and if they flew all training here they'd never fly!

Florida has weather like here...but difference is it's always here....lotta days there can be CAVOK and calm out there...and thats the only days these schools fly.

globemaster1986

Suits wrote: »

PTC generally only let their students up when there is still/light wind and no cloud as they lease their aircraft and are "cautious" with insurance. I'm not generalising florida I am pointing out the flaw in PTC's attitude toward flight training. I am saying that trainees need a bit of wind and crap to learn and experiance it all....PTC dont let them have that.

In Ireland you plan you ceiling generally and dodge CBs....still wind is rare enough and it is always gusty enough in winter. You are allowed fly in a bit of weather here. The like of PTC dont allow that, and if they flew all training here they'd never fly!

Florida has weather like here...but difference is it's always here....lotta days there can be CAVOK and calm out there...and thats the only days these schools fly.

That is utter tosh! Ask any PTC student and they will tell you as much, i know a few. The more severe restrictions put on PTC students are actually from FIT who as you say own the aircraft. I believe it is something like an 8KT crosswind for a solo (pre PPL) and i think 15KT crosswind for PPL holders, hardly still wind! Bear in mind the max demonstrated crosswind for a Pa-28 is 17KT. This is on landing/takeoff.

En route weather, as far as i am aware they are the same as you describe here. You can fly just not through CBs, TS etc, normal stuff. Not strict like you make out. PTC are far from perfect from what I can make out, and you don't like them, fair enough but you really are bashing them with the most ridiculous rubbish I have ever heard. Sounds quite petty and immature.

Not here to defend PTC but you really are talking through your hole Suits!:D

pclancy

I really enjoyed that show, thanks for sharing.

I've got way better visuals on my home FSX setup then PTC's simulator

I really enjoyed the Aero Club part, especially that guy that did his trial flight and was nearly exploding with excitement. Looks like a nice club, do any Boards people fly there? I'd love to go up for a few hours next time i'm home in Ireland. Cool family type AeroClub by the looks of it.

Suits

globemaster1986 wrote: »

That is utter tosh! Ask any PTC student and they will tell you as much, i know a few. The more severe restrictions put on PTC students are actually from FIT who as you say own the aircraft. I believe it is something like an 8KT crosswind for a solo (pre PPL) and i think 15KT crosswind for PPL holders, hardly still wind! Bear in mind the max demonstrated crosswind for a Pa-28 is 17KT. This is on landing/takeoff.

En route weather, as far as i am aware they are the same as you describe here. You can fly just not through CBs, TS etc, normal stuff. Not strict like you make out. PTC are far from perfect from what I can make out, and you don't like them, fair enough but you really are bashing them with the most ridiculous rubbish I have ever heard. Sounds quite petty and immature.

Not here to defend PTC but you really are talking through your hole Suits!:D

I was shown a sheet of max performance/weather by a PTC student(who ran into money problems and left with a shove). For a pre PPL solo crosswind limit is 5kts. It's 8kts during hour building at controlled aerodromes and 5kts for uncontrolled. FIT dictate that all landings without an instructor at any level (be it PPL - IR) must be made in the standard config at POH speeds(so no short field practice in Melbourne solo or flapless landings). You cannot make solo landings on runway's that require short field config either. Glide approaches are rare now due to these restrictions.
When you do your dual training you cannot fly if there is any gust reported or if the ceiling is below 2500ft. As a result many then wont fly when the have their PPL unless the weather is better than that. So you get fATPLs who cant fly in gusts or read if a day is flyable or not.

That's their ops policy...plain and simple.

Priority Right

Suits wrote: »

I was shown a sheet of max performance/weather by a PTC student(who ran into money problems and left with a shove). For a pre PPL solo crosswind limit is 5kts. It's 8kts during hour building at controlled aerodromes and 5kts for uncontrolled. FIT dictate that all landings without an instructor at any level (be it PPL - IR) must be made in the standard config at POH speeds(so no short field practice in Melbourne solo or flapless landings). You cannot make solo landings on runway's that require short field config either. Glide approaches are rare now due to these restrictions.

That may be how it is now but when they were in Vero Beach there was no such limitations and if there was they were ignored. Great thing about Florida is that there are so many uncontrolled airfields you can go and use a runway that has a strong crosswind or even a tailwind if you wanted to try it out. I think it's a great place to learn. If you want cloud for IMC at 3pm during the summer the whole of Florida is covered and you can get into as many thunderstorms as you want. Also you can go to class B/C airspace. Tampa, Miami, Atlanta, Orlando. Great place to learn. I wish I could go back and do it again.

As for ptc students going around with a gust. There are many people who pass the exams who shouldn't be there. Oxford and CTC students have been getting a higher rate of type rating/line training failure for the last two years in two companies I know of so it's not just PTC. If the student doesn't push themselves to get good practice (short fields, strong crosswind, flapless landings and going to unfamiliar airports as often as possible) and generally experiment with the plane then they're going to struggle in a jet.

Saying that I wouldn't touch PTC. They are not worth half the money they charge.

globemaster1986

Suits wrote: »

I was shown a sheet of max performance/weather by a PTC student(who ran into money problems and left with a shove). For a pre PPL solo crosswind limit is 5kts. It's 8kts during hour building at controlled aerodromes and 5kts for uncontrolled. FIT dictate that all landings without an instructor at any level (be it PPL - IR) must be made in the standard config at POH speeds(so no short field practice in Melbourne solo or flapless landings). You cannot make solo landings on runway's that require short field config either. Glide approaches are rare now due to these restrictions.
When you do your dual training you cannot fly if there is any gust reported or if the ceiling is below 2500ft. As a result many then wont fly when the have their PPL unless the weather is better than that. So you get fATPLs who cant fly in gusts or read if a day is flyable or not.

That's their ops policy...plain and simple.

Would love to see this sheet. As i said i know a couple of guys there, one is modular and doing hours building and he says his max crosswind is 15KTs and not 8, 8KT as i said before is a for student pilot on a solo. This is from a guy who is over there right now. Maybe some of these are old rules but the gust part is definately not right.

I don't wanna argue about it Suits, just telling you what a friend who is there right now told me

cocoshovel

pclancy wrote: »

I really enjoyed the Aero Club part, especially that guy that did his trial flight and was nearly exploding with excitement. Looks like a nice club, do any Boards people fly there? I'd love to go up for a few hours next time i'm home in Ireland. Cool family type AeroClub by the looks of it.

Have been there a few times with a friend. I dont actually fly myself though. It is a nice club house, something that stood out to me the most was that there is a balcony and you can see the entire lenght of the runway from both inside and outside. Cant really say much more about it as I dont know much :pac:

Milan Cobian

I've flown with pilots who showed genuine fear when we even skirt a fairly innocuous Irish CB and almost S**t themselves when you actually enter IMC.

This is a frightening statement. Regardless of the school they attended, or the checks they've passed, such individuals have no business at the pointy end, nor has the airline (ryanair I presume) in putting them there. Spare the talk of "how else are they supposed to progress?". Experimenting with pax on board is not the place to learn.
God help the pax if the skipper croaks it, as these newbie pilots aren't gonna be much use obviously.

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Milan Cobian wrote: »

This is a frightening statement. Regardless of the school they attended, or the checks they've passed, such individuals have no business at the pointy end, nor has the airline (ryanair I presume) in putting them there. Spare the talk of "how else are they supposed to progress?". Experimenting with pax on board is not the place to learn.
God help the pax if the skipper croaks it, as these newbie pilots aren't gonna be much use obviously.

Why do you assume he is talking about Ryanair pilots let alone actual airline pilots?!

xflyer

Certainly isn't Ryanair or any airline but yes there can be innocent civilians on board. Needless to say they don't last. But you're right they have no business at the pointy end. Nevertheless some no doubt end up in the airlines. Most are weeded out I assume, hope.

Stovepipe

The selection process for the type of flying carried out by xflyer is fairly ruthless and will weed out those who cannot manage quickly enough. One of the pilots I know who didn't make it ended up in Aer Arran, so clearly xflyer's operation was not for her but commercial airline ops is. Different strokes for different folks.
Waterford aero club are a grand bunch and always worth a visit.

regards
Stovepipe

bkehoe

pclancy wrote: »

Looks like a nice club, do any Boards people fly there? I'd love to go up for a few hours next time i'm home in Ireland. Cool family type AeroClub by the looks of it.

Yeah I'm a member and it is indeed a very welcoming and friendly place to go. Have to admit to not participating in the social scene much due to living about an hour away from the airport but any time I go in for a flight or a chat there's always someone there and inevitably you end up spending an hour longer than you intended chatting! Sunday mornings are supposed to be quite busy.

Their flying rates are very competitive too due to running the fleet on Mogas and they have an online booking system (much handier than the paper system in use in UK clubs I'm a member of!). They don't have any IFR equipped aircraft though which is disappointing but the fleet is on par with most other clubs and is reliable.

Suits

globemaster1986 wrote: »

I don't wanna argue about it Suits, just telling you what a friend who is there right now told me

I dont wanna argue either. From what I can make out you can fly to max demonstrated...but if you crash land...you are liable as the insurance wont cover it over 5kts/8kts...cleaver piece of business...

eitlean

Suits, I often read more than I post here. But I have to say you wind me up! You speak as though you know everything and that you're always right. You applied to the Aer Lingus cadetship but dropped out because the T&C's weren't good enough for you apparently - I don't buy that by the way. Nothing seems to be good enough for you...

I think you need to chill out a bit mo chara. Deep breaths, count to 10... and move away from the computer.

Suits

eitlean wrote: »

Suits, I often read more than I post here. But I have to say you wind me up! You speak as though you know everything and that you're always right. You applied to the Aer Lingus cadetship but dropped out because the T&C's weren't good enough for you apparently - I don't buy that by the way. Nothing seems to be good enough for you...

I think you need to chill out a bit mo chara. Deep breaths, count to 10... and move away from the computer.

Think what you like. I dont wanna know about it!:D

I gather info and take the option that best suits me(no pun intended). PTC isnt good enough for anyone who knows what's what in aviation training. I'm not alone in my feelings towards them.

If I wind you up so much dont read what I'm saying, and dont waste time telling me you dont agree unless you gave a counter opinion to offer on the issue.

Thanks;)

pclancy

Can everyone that's posted in this thread about PTC back up their claims with facts?

Suits

pclancy wrote: »

Can everyone that's posted in this thread about PTC back up their claims with facts?

I can...but dont think it would be a good idea. I dont want to be opening a can of worms by putting documents on the net and kicking up fuss.

pclancy

Well first of all this thread was just initially about Nationwide and Waterford Airport, then spiralled into opinions on PTC. So I think further debate about PTC should go into a new thread.

Secondly, if people are going to make statements about companies or individuals on Boards.ie, they need to be able back these claims up with fact otherwise they could be subjecting Boards to potential problems much in the same way a newspaper needs to have its journalists claims backed up by fact.

Suits

pclancy wrote: »

Well first of all this thread was just initially about Nationwide and Waterford Airport, then spiralled into opinions on PTC. So I think further debate about PTC should go into a new thread.

Secondly, if people are going to make statements about companies or individuals on Boards.ie, they need to be able back these claims up with fact otherwise they could be subjecting Boards to potential problems much in the same way a newspaper needs to have its journalists claims backed up by fact.

Ok understood. Sorry about that.

The above are my opinions based on both practical experiance and conversations with others. If you want to delete my posts that may cause hastle I wont object. I just dont want anyone else to end up in a position such as I know others did through going down a certain road.

xflyer

pclancy wrote: »

Can everyone that's posted in this thread about PTC back up their claims with facts?

Unfortunately it's all about practical experience and personal knowledge. I know you're over there in Kiwi land (I wish I was there) but you know how it is over here. We cannot really provide hard evidence.

The only thing I would say is that there is no smoke without fire.