Europe agrees to €31.7bn "core transport plan", sans funding

CIE

EurActiv

Don't ask me where the money is going to come from. This is apparently what they want to do:

The proposed new connections, which will cover all long-distance modes of transport – road, rail, air, inland waterways, maritime transport, and intermodal platforms – include:

• 86 main European ports with rail and road links
• 37 key airports with rail connections into major cities
• 15,000 km of railway line upgraded to high speed
• 35 major cross-border projects to reduce bottlenecks

The EU envisions the projects being built using common technical requirements, inter-operable across the network. Road and tunnel safety standards would also be harmonised, as would future electric car charging point infrastructure.

Libor Lochman, the director of the Community of European Railway and Infrastructure Companies welcomed the plan but cautioned against any whittling away of the €31.7 billion funding, promised under the Connecting Europe Facility last October.

“Rail services are only as good as the infrastructure they run on,” Lochman said. “Adequate funding is therefore essential for a well-developed European railway network. That’s why we urge member states to ensure the necessary financial means to make the proposed networks reality.” ...

Apparently the plan is to create some sort of "pan-European hub" that this all connects to. I don't see it going anywhere in particular, and I don't personally like the political ramifications implied here anyhow.

Cookie_Monster

Nowhere in Ireland is core though so I doubt you'll see any impact or cost tot he gov to meet any standards or what not. Maybe Dublin airport could be there but that's about it.

Terrontress

Dublin airport needs a solid rail link. Not to serve Dublin but to serve Belfast and Cork. As it would cross the land border here then it should get EU funding.

bk

Terrontress wrote: »

Dublin airport needs a solid rail link. Not to serve Dublin but to serve Belfast and Cork. As it would cross the land border here then it should get EU funding.

Why?

I don't see any particular big need. DAA has an excellent road network connecting it to every city in Ireland. The Bus from Belfast is faster then the train and we will soon have fast direct non stop buses from Cork.

Hungerford

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Nowhere in Ireland is core though so I doubt you'll see any impact or cost tot he gov to meet any standards or what not. Maybe Dublin airport could be there but that's about it.

One railway corridor has consistently been classified as core: Larne-Belfast-Dublin-Cork. What's interesting is that a new core line has shown up on the latest EU maps: Limerick Jct-Limerick-Foynes.

That's correct, Limerick-Foynes has been declared as a key European link - the maps indicate that it is one piece of core infrastructure that is to be built in Ireland.

Terrontress

bk wrote: »

Terrontress wrote: »

Dublin airport needs a solid rail link. Not to serve Dublin but to serve Belfast and Cork. As it would cross the land border here then it should get EU funding.

Why?

I don't see any particular big need. DAA has an excellent road network connecting it to every city in Ireland. The Bus from Belfast is faster then the train and we will soon have fast direct non stop buses from Cork.

Only because the train lines are so poor. If we had an intercity rail terminal in Dublin airport there is no reason why we should not be able to reach Belfast in one hour. Couple to this the potential to move freight which has come in by air in off-peak times then surely there is merit in that.

I have not though about cost-benefit analysis but in an ideal world we'd be connected by rail.

Everything going in and out of Dublin airport has to do so by road at present and go around a roundabout with traffic lights on it.

I acknowledge that there is not a need for a light rail link to the city.

bk

Terrontress wrote: »

I acknowledge that there is not a need for a light rail link to the city.

I'd disagree, I think there is more of a justification for a light rail link. Well there is no justification for a light rail link to just the airport, but there is a justification for Metro North which includes 14 stops, including some of the most densely populated parts of the city, swords, major hospitals, colleges and our largest stadium, etc.

You can forget about a heavy rail freight hub. Freight will never be transported to and from the Dublin Airport, the type of people who transport freight by air are time sensitive, just in time deliveries. They aren't ever going to sit around waiting to fill a freight train, which would only have to be taken off and put in a truck to it's destination anyway, when it is much faster to just put it on a truck at the airport and drive it straight to its destination.

You could only do Dublin Airport to Belfast in an hour if you upgraded the track to high speed rail. What you are talking about is billions of investment. I see little justification for this.

Terrontress

bk wrote: »

You could only do Dublin Airport to Belfast in an hour if you upgraded the track to high speed rail. What you are talking about is billions of investment. I see little justification for this.

Well, we have to have some form of a target, or dream as the case may be.

It seems to me that on a global basis, railway is the mode of transport which is evolving the most and it is the mode of transport most under threat in this country.

A lack of investment in rail combined with a massive investment in interurban motorways has made the rail network irrelevant on all but commuter routes where there are high volumes of road traffic.

If railway is going to continue in Ireland it will need to raise its game to the same standard as the UK's existing high speed network. Trains running 125 - 140 mph separated from all other traffic.

bk

Terrontress wrote: »

Well, we have to have some form of a target, or dream as the case may be.

Of course, it is a great dream and if we had unlimited money I'd support it 100%.

But we don't and I'm not sure the cost of it would really benefit our economy.

Terrontress wrote: »

It seems to me that on a global basis, railway is the mode of transport which is evolving the most and it is the mode of transport most under threat in this country.

I'm a big supporter of rail where it makes sense. It certainly makes sense on mainland Europe where you are connecting to large cities (> 1 million people) and even better when you are connecting a large number of such cities.

But Ireland isn't mainland Europe and unfortunately the geography and demographics of Ireland just don't lend themselves to intercity rail, never mind high speed intercity.

Unfortunately Ireland is a small Island, isolated from the European rail network. We have only one city with > 1 million people, the other cities would be barely called cities by European standards and distances are relatively very short and easily serviced by road.

We can dream, but I think it is better to face up to the reality of the situation we face on the ground and make the most of the infrastructure we have and plan wisely for the future improvements to that infrastructure.

corktina

The point about rail links to airports is you need an intensive service suitable for each arrival and departure. A rail link from Cork and Belfast is quite simply luancy, (it's even doubtful whether a link from Dublin is necessary) both places already have International Airports and onwards connections via London, Frankfurt, Amsterdam etc to the whole world. Noone would take a train from Belfast or Cork to Dublin Airport,

dowlingm

Hungerford wrote: »

One railway corridor has consistently been classified as core: Larne-Belfast-Dublin-Cork. What's interesting is that a new core line has shown up on the latest EU maps: Limerick Jct-Limerick-Foynes.

That's correct, Limerick-Foynes has been declared as a key European link - the maps indicate that it is one piece of core infrastructure that is to be built in Ireland.

If the government (including the Greens) had any sort of rail freight incentivisation, if IE hadn't been left get away with their so-called "care and maintenance regime" and if Limerick city council hadn't opposed the consolidation of Limerick Port into the Foynes area then a) there might be a rail link already and b) Limerick Port area could have been sold off and now be a bunch of developments. Okay, some of them might be in NAMA but still...

ballooba

bk wrote: »

Why?

I don't see any particular big need. DAA has an excellent road network connecting it to every city in Ireland. The Bus from Belfast is faster then the train and we will soon have fast direct non stop buses from Cork.

So that I can take the train to Belfast airport and avoid DAA's various monuments to incompetence.:D

CIE

OK, what's with the thread hijack...?

Rock of Gibraltar

Do you have any further information on this?
Do Dublin Port or Airport count among the major European facilities?

That website doesn't really volunteer information easily, EU websites tend to be difficult/infuriating to navigate.

antoinolachtnai

You could link Dublin Airport to Cork and Belfast lines, by joining from Glasnevin to the Airport and onwards to the Northern Line. It is very feasible, and not particularly expensive as part of a Metro project.

purplepanda

If there's money for major rail transport improvements available from the EU someone in the relevant government & IE / NTA departments should be on the case claiming ASAP.

Other countries will be asking for their share so why not Ireland? It's up to the relevant EU transport bodies to make the decision & decide the most deserving cases. :rolleyes:

Not making a valid request for available transport funds would be laughed at by other EU members. :mad: Nothing ventured, nothing gained!!!!

KCAccidental

I wonder if this initiative is more to do with upgrading the Eastern EU infrastructure to a Western EU standard?

kingshankly

A shuttle rail service from the airport to clongriffen and a shuttle service on the existing line between connolly and Huston would solve a lot of problems I feel

dowlingm

kingshankly - a Heuston /Connolly shuttle? First off, on what frequency? If it's high, that's going to cause some issues with Sligo line/Dublin Port traffic, no? If low/irregular then better off with LUAS?

Second, presumably that would run into P10 which is remote from Heuston proper.

purplepanda

KCAccidental wrote: »

I wonder if this initiative is more to do with upgrading the Eastern EU infrastructure to a Western EU standard?

A perfect reason to apply for funding for Rosslare-Waterford-Limerick-Nenagh, Athlone-Mullingar & other rail lines neglected & rundown by IE for decades :rolleyes:

Just blame it on IE's cold war strategy

monument

Would a Metro North / intercity exchange on the northern line be enough to qualify metro for Ten-T funding? ...or does this new plan open Ten-T funding to metro anyway? I remember somebody saying it did not apply to metro.

CIE wrote: »

Don't ask me where the money is going to come from. This is apparently what they want to do:Apparently the plan is to create some sort of "pan-European hub" that this all connects to. I don't see it going anywhere in particular, and I don't personally like the political ramifications implied here anyhow.

You might want to have a look at the Ten-T website to see what they have already funded or partly funded across Europe... http://tentea.ec.europa.eu/en/ten-t_projects/ten-t_projects_by_country/

corktina wrote: »

The point about rail links to airports is you need an intensive service suitable for each arrival and departure.

Service improvements should come with line improvements.

corktina wrote: »

A rail link from Cork and Belfast is quite simply luancy, (it's even doubtful whether a link from Dublin is necessary)

Ten-T isn't about what is strictly "necessary" it's about improving transport networks networks (road and rail) in order make excellent national and international connections for the benefit for Europe's people and economy.

corktina wrote: »

both places already have International Airports and onwards connections via London, Frankfurt, Amsterdam etc to the whole world.

You think many people from Cork and Belfast don't already use Dublin Airport?

corktina wrote: »

Noone would take a train from Belfast or Cork to Dublin Airport,

Whatever about the merits of building such a rail link (and if it would be worth it etc), that's quite frankly the daftest think I've ever heard.... Or maybe you have not seen the price of filling up a car or DAA's parking charges recently?

pigtown

Hungerford wrote: »

One railway corridor has consistently been classified as core: Larne-Belfast-Dublin-Cork. What's interesting is that a new core line has shown up on the latest EU maps: Limerick Jct-Limerick-Foynes.

That's correct, Limerick-Foynes has been declared as a key European link - the maps indicate that it is one piece of core infrastructure that is to be built in Ireland.

Where is this map?

end of the road

bk wrote: »

Why?

I don't see any particular big need. DAA has an excellent road network connecting it to every city in Ireland. The Bus from Belfast is faster then the train and we will soon have fast direct non stop buses from Cork.

why not. just because theirs a good road network doesn't mean their can't be a good rail network to. its about choice, bullying people to use one method of transport has and will never work.
and i'd hardly say that direct nonstop bus services from cork could be described as (fast) and anyway people would be better off just taking the car if their thinking about using a bus. why would they be bothered driving to a pick up point to be driven to dublin when they could just get the car and go from their door right in to dublin. the only reason why anyone would use the bus is because it so happens to be cheeper than the train. while price is important i can't see people leaving the train in their droves for a slower bus. sure this won't do irish rail any favours but bring up the cork dublin line speeds to 100 or 125 mph, lower the price and have it run non stop where possible and a good lot of the bus users will flock back to the train. of course this will require sacking of the current shambolic management at irish rail.
as for this supposed fund the government should try get every penny it can from it and do as much upgrading of the existing network as possible. for such a small country it takes so bluddy long to get to our capital city so time for our rail network to be brought up to a proper speed. at least the lines to dublin.

Hungerford

The map for freight is here:
http://ec.europa.eu/transport/infrastructure/doc/com(2011)_650_final_2_annex_i_part06.pdf

The map for passenger railways and roads is here:
http://ec.europa.eu/transport/infrastructure/doc/com(2011)_650_final_2_annex_i_part07.pdf

No prizes for noting which lines IE have omitted from their network map as submitted to the EU Commission.

bk

end of the road wrote: »

why would they be bothered driving to a pick up point to be driven to dublin when they could just get the car and go from their door right in to dublin.

1) Don't own a car, train too expensive
2) Want to work or play during the journey and don't want to pay 4 times more for the train.
3) Train doesn't run early enough or late enough to meet early morning flights, bus coaches do.
4) Train doesn't go all the way to the airport, don't need to transfer.
5) Bus coach significantly cheaper then car, Cork to Dublin is €22 by bus, it costs over €50 by car with petrol and tolls and almost €80 by train.

end of the road wrote: »

the only reason why anyone would use the bus is because it so happens to be cheeper than the train. while price is important i can't see people leaving the train in their droves for a slower bus. sure this won't do irish rail any favours but bring up the cork dublin line speeds to 100 or 125 mph, lower the price and have it run non stop where possible and a good lot of the bus users will flock back to the train. of course this will require sacking of the current shambolic management at irish rail.

And where will the hundreds of millions in subsidies and capital infrastructure come from to achieve this?

Sure if the EU are willing to pay for it, fair enough. But I don't want it coming out of my pocket and I don't think most people want it either, not just for the sake of shaving 30 minutes off the Cork to Dublin train journey times.

end of the road

bk wrote: »

1) Don't own a car, train too expensive
2) Want to work or play during the journey and don't want to pay 4 times more for the train.
3) Train doesn't run early enough or late enough to meet early morning flights, bus coaches do.
4) Train doesn't go all the way to the airport, don't need to transfer.
5) Bus coach significantly cheaper then car, Cork to Dublin is €22 by bus, it costs over €50 by car with petrol and tolls and almost €80 by train.



And where will the hundreds of millions in subsidies and capital infrastructure come from to achieve this?

Sure if the EU are willing to pay for it, fair enough. But I don't want it coming out of my pocket and I don't think most people want it either, not just for the sake of shaving 30 minutes off the Cork to Dublin train journey times.

1. thats irish rails fault. they don't want to run early morning services or late night ones either outside dart and commuter. nobodies suggesting they do so.
2. if it was brought up to a decent speed and had less stops or none at all during high-peak hours it could shave possibly an hour or more off the journey which is what they should be aiming for. but as we all know this is IE.
3. where did the hundreds of millions to build our roads network come from? some of that would have come from tax RIGHT? POSSIBLY PPPS and the EU TO.

dowlingm

Someone should stop the track relaying crews in the Clonmel area, they're relaying a line the EU says doesn't exist! :eek:

bk

end of the road wrote: »

2. if it was brought up to a decent speed and had less stops or none at all during high-peak hours it could shave possibly an hour or more off the journey which is what they should be aiming for. but as we all know this is IE.
3. where did the hundreds of millions to build our roads network come from? some of that would have come from tax RIGHT? POSSIBLY PPPS and the EU TO.

Taking one hour or more off journey times isn't possible without moving to high speed trains and yes this would actually cost more then a billion. This is based on Irish Rails own numbers.

Yes hundreds of millions (billions in fact) were spent on motorways. But that was always going to happen. Every western country in the world has a highly developed motorway network and we were needed one too. This was never in question, the economy benefits greatly from the reduction in deaths on our roads (separated dual carriages a major reason for the recent drops), and the massive reduction in journey times for cars, freight and bus coaches, which dropped by about 1 and a half hours to Cork.

The question then is, do you need rail in addition to the motorway and what benefit does the economy reap for the hundreds of millions investment in rail?

If the motorway can adequately get people and goods from a to b in a reasonable time, then is there any justification for spending millions more on rail to do the same? And could these millions more be better spent on other projects such as fibre optic networks, Dart Underground, a childrens hospital, etc.

And of course all of that is before the reality of our current financial situation that we are totally broke and that the money we spent on the motorways, no longer exists.

end of the road

bk wrote: »

Taking one hour or more off journey times isn't possible without moving to high speed trains and yes this would actually cost more then a billion. This is based on Irish Rails own numbers.

Yes hundreds of millions (billions in fact) were spent on motorways. But that was always going to happen. Every western country in the world has a highly developed motorway network and we were needed one too. This was never in question, the economy benefits greatly from the reduction in deaths on our roads (separated dual carriages a major reason for the recent drops), and the massive reduction in journey times for cars, freight and bus coaches, which dropped by about 1 and a half hours to Cork.

The question then is, do you need rail in addition to the motorway and what benefit does the economy reap for the hundreds of millions investment in rail?

If the motorway can adequately get people and goods from a to b in a reasonable time, then is there any justification for spending millions more on rail to do the same? And could these millions more be better spent on other projects such as fibre optic networks, Dart Underground, a childrens hospital, etc.

And of course all of that is before the reality of our current financial situation that we are totally broke and that the money we spent on the motorways, no longer exists.

1. i never disagreed about the building of the motorways, i asked where the money came from.
2. obviously the motor way isn't getting a good lot of people adequately from a to be because their still using the trains. why is that?
3. can we realy believe irish rails figures? would it not be fair to say that they could be over inflated? have we any other figures drawn up in this country to compare them to? doubt it.
4. the projects you mentioned are ones that should have been done during the good times and aren't going to happen now, that may even include the childrens hospital, of course it may be built but who knows. even if we did close all the rail network outside dublin apart from the commuter routes theirs no guarantee that the money saved would even go to these projects. i think we both know where it will most lightly go.
5. yes i believe it would have been justifyable to spend money on upgrading the rail system to high speed, maybe not now (unless we can get some funding from the EU) but during the good times yes. i can't speek for you but in my opinion it takes to long to get to our capital city, and having a faster rail network that has faster speeds then the motor ways would have been worth the money. it isn't going to happen anyway.

bk

end of the road wrote: »

2. obviously the motor way isn't getting a good lot of people adequately from a to be because their still using the trains. why is that?

Motorway intercity share is over 60% of people from Cork to Dublin and 75% of Galway to Dublin.

Actually according to Irish Rails own figures, intercity rail numbers have dropped 25% over the last 3 years.

As a Corkonian living in Dublin, who uses the train once a month, it is very noticeably quieter since the motorway open. Even the 5pm train from Dublin on a Friday isn't packed anymore.

Three reasons people still use trains:
1) Don't own a car
2) Want to work or play during the journey time.
3) Free travel pass holders

And there is currently no fast direct bus service to Cork.

Once the fast direct bus service to Cork launches (expected in the next few months), then according to Irish Rails own numbers, they will see another 40% drop in passenger numbers on the Cork route!!

If you are going to talk about intercity rail, you should really read the report about intercity rail that IR had some independent consultants publish literally just a few weeks ago. It is a real eye opener.

end of the road wrote: »

3. can we realy believe irish rails figures? would it not be fair to say that they could be over inflated? have we any other figures drawn up in this country to compare them to? doubt it.

500 million for 250 km is just 2 million per km. Which is just a fraction of what real high speed lines cost (circa 40 to 80 million per km). So it is more likely the cost of a cheap and nasty slower solution using existing track like they did in the UK in the 70's with Intercity 125 and tilting trains.

end of the road wrote: »

5. yes i believe it would have been justifyable to spend money on upgrading the rail system to high speed, maybe not now (unless we can get some funding from the EU) but during the good times yes.

No it never was, not for a country the size, geography and demographics of Ireland. The national development plan always had two major themes to it.

1) Fix intercity journey times by building an intercity motorway network.
2) Fix commuting journey times around Dublin with Metro North and Dart Underground.

This plan made a lot of sense. Fixing intercity rail journey times was never part of the plan.

Part 1 got done, but part 2 didn't get done due to the recession. Part 2 still needs to be done, it makes no sense at all to spend billions given a second intercity high speed option when one already exists and the commuting problem still hasn't been resolved around Dublin.

end of the road wrote: »

i can't speek for you but in my opinion it takes to long to get to our capital city, and having a faster rail network that has faster speeds then the motor ways would have been worth the money.

By train yes, but not by car, at 2 hours 30 minutes * to Cork (sometimes even faster) it is now very fast to get from Cork to Dublin and it is now adequately served for the majority of people. * Remember this is a door to door time for most people making this journey.

If you want an even faster service, then put out a 5 year guaranteed licenses for a Cork to Dublin air route. That will cover people who want to do it faster without the ridiculous cost of intercity rail infrastructure.

corktina

monument wrote: »

Would a Metro North / intercity exchange on the northern line be enough to qualify metro for Ten-T funding? ...or does this new plan open Ten-T funding to metro anyway? I remember somebody saying it did not apply to metro.



You might want to have a look at the Ten-T website to see what they have already funded or partly funded across Europe... http://tentea.ec.europa.eu/en/ten-t_projects/ten-t_projects_by_country/




Service improvements should come with line improvements.



Ten-T isn't about what is strictly "necessary" it's about improving transport networks networks (road and rail) in order make excellent national and international connections for the benefit for Europe's people and economy.



You think many people from Cork and Belfast don't already use Dublin Airport?



Whatever about the merits of building such a rail link (and if it would be worth it etc), that's quite frankly the daftest think I've ever heard.... Or maybe you have not seen the price of filling up a car or DAA's parking charges recently?

no the daftest think I have ever heard is you agreeing with my posts whislt appearing to be disagreeing!

monument

corktina wrote: »

no the daftest think I have ever heard is you agreeing with my posts whislt appearing to be disagreeing!

Ok, sure. :rolleyes: