Are FF sincere or acting in the party's best interests?

liammur

Are FF genuine or are they leading us up the garden path once more?

I believe it was a no brainer that he would be expelled. For one reason, and one reason only, he is a liability to the party.


Now if FF are sincere, and they want to prove me wrong, expel Willie O Dea and any other minister of the time who challenged the tribunal e.g. O Dea talking about 'the tribunal investigating Ahern's communion money next'. This was a slant and an attempt to discredit the tribunal. There must be repercussions for such minisiters of that time if they are sincere.

Dirk Gently

wont happen because Martin was one of those ministers.

zootroid

The only interest FF know of is their own self interest. If the public interest happens to be similar it's a happy coincidence

M cebee

yes I agree the issue of ministers undermining the tribunal should be dealt with by ff

Sir Oxman

They have zero choice re-Ahern etc

I can't wait to hear Martin's answers to the damning finding that the cabinet he was a member of had systematically attacked and denigrated the tribunal for the purpose of bringing it to a halt.

Really, for anyone to believe that party will ever change (I don't), Martin and O'Dea must go and the other cabinet ministers that jumped ship with their rewards and took part in the attacks should be expelled also.

Calleary is setting out the FF stall on Primetime that no action will be taken against these reprobates.

liammur

Dirk Gently wrote: »

wont happen because Martin was one of those ministers.

Did Martin challenge the tribunal in a similar fashion to O Dea ?

crafty dodger

Watching prime Time and of course Calleary is trying to spread around the blame for all of the corruption that went on. It is the old we were all in it together argument....
Of course it is all in FFs self interest

take everything

crafty dodger wrote: »

Watching prime Time and of course Calleary is trying to spread around the blame for all of the corruption that went on. It is the old we were all in it together argument....
Of course it is all in FFs self interest

Rabbitte rebuffed it well.

crafty dodger

Where is Willy O'Dea when he is really needed?

Nodin

liammur wrote: »

Are FF genuine or are they leading us up the garden path once more?

I believe it was a no brainer that he would be expelled. For one reason, and one reason only, he is a liability to the party.


Now if FF are sincere, and they want to prove me wrong, expel Willie O Dea and any other minister of the time who challenged the tribunal e.g. O Dea talking about 'the tribunal investigating Ahern's communion money next'. This was a slant and an attempt to discredit the tribunal. There must be repercussions for such minisiters of that time if they are sincere.

They're sincerely acting in the parties best interests.

Sierra Oscar

liammur wrote: »

Now if FF are sincere, and they want to prove me wrong, expel Willie O Dea and any other minister of the time who challenged the tribunal e.g. O Dea talking about 'the tribunal investigating Ahern's communion money next'. This was a slant and an attempt to discredit the tribunal. There must be repercussions for such minisiters of that time if they are sincere.

I do believe that the party is acting in a sincere manner here, the whole organisation will be discussing the report at CDC level and I would imagine the vast majority of members will be calling for Ahern to lose his membership of the party. Ordinary members just feel absolutely let down by the actions of successive senior figures within the party, and want decisive action to make sure events like this are not repeated.

In regards the former ministers coming out and attacking the Tribunal - it just should not have happened, and said individuals do have a case to answer on this. However at the time there seemed to be an awful lot of questioning of the Tribunal, particularly within the media, which a lot of people bought - perhaps including the public which was demonstrated by the 07 election - alongside cabinet members themselves. In regards the cabinet, these were people that worked alongside Bertie Ahern and trusted him. However the fact of the matter is that the findings of the Tribunal have to be accepted and the Tribunal said that Bertie Ahern was lying. Also, we all need to learn now that this cult of the leader just has to end. Members of a political party, including senior leaders, should always be questioning and probing of the leadership of the party president. Maybe if that had occurred throughout the parties history then this would not have arisen in the first place. The likes of Flynn obviously thought they could just get away with it scott free - and for a long time they were right.

I know that myself, personally, bought into Bertie Ahern's account initially but as the Tribunal progressed his evidence was clearly all over the place. Some people may have been offering him the benefit of doubt, but now that the Tribunal has made its findings it is time to wake up and recognise that he was just simply down right lying in regards his accounts of events. The Tribunal may not have been able to make findings of corruption against Ahern, but we can all read between the lines.

Kristopherus

Sincerity and Fianna Fail were divorced back in C.J Haughey's days of the early 80's.:mad::mad::mad:

Dirk Gently

liammur wrote: »

Did Martin challenge the tribunal in a similar fashion to O Dea ?

He was part of the co-ordinated PR offensive from FF to discredit the tribunal. MM was one of a number including o'Dea who commented negatively to media at the time. It was obvious they were sent out in a deliberate and co-ordinated way to plant doubts about the legitimacy of the tribunal.

Martin is in the same boat as O'Dea which is why Bertie being expelled is the only action that will be taken.

Dirk Gently

take everything wrote: »

Rabbitte rebuffed it well.

He was saved by the ad break in the end though.

tfitzgerald

Kristopherus wrote: »

Sincerity and Fianna Fail were divorced back in C.J Haughey's days of the early 80's.:mad::mad::mad:

My wife thinks this is when FF started to go bad as well. I can't see the party doing too well under Martin either. And to answer the op's question FF always put the party first

steelcityblues

'A slightly constitutional party': Sean Lemass

Mr.Micro

Dirk Gently wrote: »

He was part of the co-ordinated PR offensive from FF to discredit the tribunal. MM was one of a number including o'Dea who commented negatively to media at the time. It was obvious they were sent out in a deliberate and co-ordinated way to plant doubts about the legitimacy of the tribunal.

Martin is in the same boat as O'Dea which is why Bertie being expelled is the only action that will be taken.

Martin needs to get himself and O Dea kicked out as well then. He has zero credibility....no wonder he looked shifty on the news earlier this evening.

Sierra Oscar

tfitzgerald wrote: »

My wife thinks this is when FF started to go bad as well. I can't see the party doing too well under Martin either. And to answer the op's question FF always put the party first

We all know now why Bertie Ahern didn't deal with Charlie Haughey back in 1997. At least Martin is now doing to Ahern what Ahern himself should have done against Haughey back in 97'.

M cebee

didn't dara calleary say that these guys let the party down-that says it all

although he was pulled up on it after

Laminations

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

We all know now why Bertie Ahern didn't deal with Charlie Haughey back in 1997. At least Martin is now doing to Ahern what Ahern himself should have done against Haughey back in 97'.

So should his right to a state funeral be revoked?

As well as defending Ahern (or at least not coming out at the time and saying his account was incredulous) Martin described the tribunal investigations into Bertie as 'bizarre'

http://m.brne.ws/ireland/martin-surprised-by-mahon-criticism-of-former-cabinet-members-comments-544601.html

When did you join FF? Was it under the leadership of Bertie? And you initially believed him? And you stayed in the party while your leader lied to a tribunal? You stayed in the party while senior cabinet members rallied around him and attacked the tribunal?

Shame.on.you

marozz

The whole thing is a damage limitation exercise. Martin and O'Dea should do the honorable thing and go.

M cebee

yes damage limitation

they're expelling people to limit repercussions-just a strategy

Sir Oxman

Laminations wrote: »

So should his right to a state funeral be revoked?

Damn right it should.
Aherne made sure that other liar Haughey was afforded all the trappings of greatness by a publically funded state funeral.

[Jackass]

Ahhhhhh sure they were all at it.

No, they weren't.

Fianna Fail is THE place to go when you want someone in your pocket. Fianna Fail is THE party to join if you want some influence in public life and to make contacts in order to influence decisions through contact or payments.

Fianna Fail is THE party to give your funding to and make sure you attend their functions and bring your bags of money.

It's full of bag men, cash payments, under hand shenanigans.

FF is a hall of fame for the most corrupt members of Irish society since the formation of the state and it is full to the brim with all the corrupt members of Irish society. I would be ashamed to have a family member or friend in any way affiliated with Fianna Fail.

They are a cancer of Irish society and have been caught out time and time and time and time again, all the way back to Dev, it's founder, underhand, sly and always in shady ground trying to get away with immoral, or unethical, or downright illegal behaviour.

It's not "a few bad apples", it's the corrupt business mans members club, with a who's who of corrupt millionaires, developers and business men, all passing around parcels of money, looking for a favour here and a decision there.

No other party has ANY problems EVER. One or two "bad apples" involving one person here or there who abused a position, the Fianna Fail chain of corruption leads from one senior member to the next, from one generation to the next....

They are a disgrace, and nothing would make me happier than to see Bertie slammed up in jail.

I also wouldn't buy Michale Martins alter boy front, as if he didn't know anything surrounded by multiple criminaly prosecuted and also found to be corrupt politicians through all of his career, and he's enough of a cute whooer, I would not be one bit surprised that once he goes through the inevitable scrutiny he inevitably will during his career, some muck will show up there...

Sierra Oscar

Laminations wrote: »

When did you join FF? Was it under the leadership of Bertie? And you initially believed him? And you stayed in the party while your leader lied to a tribunal? You stayed in the party while senior cabinet members rallied around him and attacked the tribunal?

Shame.on.you

I was not a member of Fianna Fáil when Bertie Ahern was leader, nor before the public hearings within the Mahon Tribunal concluded so I could not really comment on the atmosphere within the party at that time. Indeed, I did initially believe him - that was before I was a party member but I believed him nonetheless. I suspect there were many people like me, who ended up voting for FF in the 07 election. I just could not believe at first that someone like Ahern was corrupt, but as the tribunal progressed the writing was on the wall. I guess I did not follow the tribunal closely at first, I was not hugely into politics at the time but I bought into the spin all the same. Now we know for certain that what he was saying when giving evidence was bull****.

What FF needs now is a generational shift, and break away from this culture of backhand deals and corruption which plagued the top levels of the party. We also need reform within FF, but also reform within the political system as a whole. I hope the recommendations of the Tribunal are implemented.

User Friendly

insert Ahearn or any other individual in the place of boland and you get the picture,FF comes first:cool:

Laminations

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

What FF needs now is...

Why do you care what FF needs? Why should we care? Shouldn't we care what the country needs?

You seem to be a member of FF not to help the country (that could be done with a new 'clean' party), but to continue on the party.

Sierra Oscar

Laminations wrote: »

Why do you care what FF needs? Why should we care? Shouldn't we care what the country needs?

You seem to be a member of FF not to help the country (that could be done with a new 'clean' party), but to continue on the party.

This is a discussion forum where I am expressing my own views, if you do not care what I have to say then add me to your ignore list. As a member of a political party, naturally I am going to comment on what I believe are the reforms necessary within the party - just as any other member of a political party will comment on matters relating to their own party.

And indeed I do care about the country - any decent member of FF or any other political party puts the country first, if you quoted my post as a whole you would have noticed that I also stated that wider political reform is necessary for the good of the country to ensure these events are not repeated. Corruption transcends party lines, unfortunately.

Dirk Gently

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

What FF needs now is a generational shift, and break away from this culture of backhand deals and corruption which plagued the top levels of the party. We also need reform within FF, but also reform within the political system as a whole. I hope the recommendations of the Tribunal are implemented.

no offence but FF have nothing to offer and should frankly disband. I see no talent in the party, it's just one big social club whose purpose is to promote itself, as are most political partys tbh.

I can't see any benefit to the country in the continued existence of this failed organisation.

Laminations

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

This is a discussion forum where I am expressing my own views, if you do not care what I have to say then add me to your ignore list.

Well I do care what your views are. Because once upon a time your view was in the majority and we had FF in power. But I think your views wreek of cognitive dissonance. You support Martin and other TDs and senior figures who were the same figures that drove the country into the floor and the same people who rallied around Bertie.

For FF to renew, the head needs to be cut from the snake, a broom taken to all upper echelons of the party- that won't happen because the party would die, like a snake without a head. So you'll never be renewed.

Sierra Oscar

Dirk Gently wrote: »

no offence but FF have nothing to offer and should frankly disband. I see no talent in the party, it's just one big social club whose purpose is to promote itself, as are most political partys tbh.

I can't see any benefit to the country in the continued existence of this failed organisation.

There are many many people in FF that want to serve their country, to have a positive and constructive input into public life and I hope such members come to the forefront in the immediate future.

You may believe that the party has nothing to offer, and perhaps you are right, and that represents the enormous challenge for the party. It is down to the organisation to come together and make itself relevant and to offer you a credible alternative. That takes time, but I hope it occurs. It is why I am sticking on in FF - to try and make a difference within the party so as it does end up having something to offer the country.

Laminations

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

There are many many people in FF that want to serve their country, .

Your country is asking you kindly to leave the party and let it die - that was the resounding message from the last election - the only people who voted FF were die-hard FFers, not representative of the country.

Vincent Browne highlighting the issues surrounding MMs leadership - suggesting he should resign. The FF on the show rejecting that and supporting Martin.

So as a reform focused member, does MM have your support?

Laminations

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

It is why I am sticking on in FF - to try and make a difference within the party so as it does end up having something to offer the country.

Why FF though, building a new party could make a difference and have something to offer the country. Why are you dead set on saving this husk of a party?

shuffol

Fianna Fail is a virus that is constantly mutating in order to survive. Dumping Bertie, all this need to reform politics bluster, if they did or said anything differently they'd be finished as a political entity.

Wider Road

Laminations wrote: »

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

There are many many people in FF that want to serve their country, .

Your country is asking you kindly to leave the party and let it die - that was the resounding message from the last election - the only people who voted FF were die-hard FFers, not representative of the country.

Vincent Browne highlighting the issues surrounding MMs leadership - suggesting he should resign. The FF on the show rejecting that and supporting Martin.

So as a reform focused member, does MM have your support?

Have you an opinion on Enda Kenny's judgement when he is doing business with Denis O'Brien?


Is this action for the good of the country?
(Yes or No, please).

amovingstatue

Dirk Gently wrote: »

no offence but FF have nothing to offer and should frankly disband. I see no talent in the party, it's just one big social club whose purpose is to promote itself, as are most political partys tbh.

I can't see any benefit to the country in the continued existence of this failed organisation.

And they expelled Beverley when it came to light the kind of services she was offering, only to allow her readmittance just a year later.

Laminations

Wider Road wrote: »

Have you an opinion on Enda Kenny's judgement when he is doing business with Denis O'Brien?


Is this action for the good of the country?
(Yes or No, please).

Doing business? They were both invited to the same event.

I disagree with an invitation being extended to O'Brien as part of the diaspora.

If Enda was doing business with DOB then no it is not good for the country.

Laminations

So Wider Road, what's your views on Bertie?

Sierra Oscar

Laminations wrote: »

Your country is asking you kindly to leave the party and let it die - that was the resounding message from the last election - the only people who voted FF were die-hard FFers, not representative of the country.

I don't really buy into that argument at all - FF recieved 17.5% of the first preference vote in the last GE. By your logic, should SF, the ULA and the likes disband?

Laminations wrote: »

Why FF though, building a new party could make a difference and have something to offer the country. Why are you dead set on saving this husk of a party?

To be honest in the long run I think FF will still be prevalent within the Irish political system - I don't necessarily see the party as a hollow husk. If decent honest people do not remain in the party, advocating for reforms, then we will be having another Mahon report in a few decades time.

All the same though, I do not see a new political party out there. If one was created then I could see a lot of people from all political parties considering joining.

firemansam4

Laminations wrote: »

Your country is asking you kindly to leave the party and let it die - that was the resounding message from the last election - the only people who voted FF were die-hard FFers, not representative of the country.

Vincent Browne highlighting the issues surrounding MMs leadership - suggesting he should resign. The FF on the show rejecting that and supporting Martin.

So as a reform focused member, does MM have your support?

I am by no means a FF man and I have very little respect for the way they have handled them selves and what they have done to our country.

But the fact of the matter is that even though they were decimated in the last election they are still now the largest opposition party in this country and they are still a huge force to be reckoned with, they still have massive grass root support despite all that has gone on and I wouldn't be at all surprised too see them make huge gains come the next election as much as that saddens me!

Laminations

firemansam4 wrote: »

Ithey are still a huge force to be reckoned with, they still have massive grass root support despite all that has gone on

that's kinda my point. It's what worries me. Despite all that's gone on, they still have supporters....who claim to be supporting them for the sake of the country (but every comment concerns what's best for FF)

Pride Fighter

FF have a large membership base, 4 times more people are in it than Labour for example. I dont see them going away unfortunately.

As for the OP, FF dont care about reform. They only care about power. They will do anything to regain power, even if it means appearing to be ethical. I would not believe them though,never have, never will.

fcussen

There are people in Fianna Fáíl who, buoyed by the all the perma-voters they have, are arrogant enough to think that Fianna Fáil is the country and what's good for FF is always good for Ireland. So, in that sense they are sincere.

firemansam4

Laminations wrote: »

that's kinda my point. It's what worries me. Despite all that's gone on, they still have supporters....who claim to be supporting them for the sake of the country (but every comment concerns what's best for FF)

Yea I understand what you are trying to say, it is worrying but while they still have large support out there they wont be going anywhere and the old FF political family loyalties will probably come back into play and see them re-gaining a lot of there lost support from the previous election.

Wider Road

Laminations wrote: »

Wider Road wrote: »

Have you an opinion on Enda Kenny's judgement when he is doing business with Denis O'Brien?


Is this action for the good of the country?
(Yes or No, please).

Doing business? They were both invited to the same event.

I disagree with an invitation being extended to O'Brien as part of the diaspora.

If Enda was doing business with DOB then no it is not good for the country.

Enda said that Ireland is open for business. Given that Denis O'Brien was with Enda, surely one must be wondering why our Taoiseach didn't stop it and will it happen again?
It now looks like that with the last time FG were in govt they dealt in corruption (phone license) and are sending out Denis O'Brien, the guy that corrupted the phone licence, to tell us that we are open for business?
Am I missing something?

Laminations

Wider Road wrote: »

[FG] are sending out Denis O'Brien, the guy that corrupted the phone licence, to tell us that we are open for business?

FG aren't sending him out. He was at the same event as Enda, I disagree with his invitation from whoever invited him. Enda was representing the government and Ireland, not FG. I'm not a FGer. If your point is that Enda being on the same podium as DoB is somehow equivalent to you or Martin or any FFer being in the same party as the 8 or more people chastised in the Mahon report, then your point is rubbish.

Am I missing something?

Quite obviously you are. A moral compass perhaps?

Wider Road

Laminations wrote: »

Wider Road wrote: »

[FG] are sending out Denis O'Brien, the guy that corrupted the phone licence, to tell us that we are open for business?

FG aren't sending him out. He was at the same event as Enda, I disagree with his invitation from whoever invited him. Enda was representing the government and Ireland, not FG. I'm not a FGer. If your point is that Enda being on the same podium as DoB is somehow equivalent to you or Martin or any FFer being in the same party as the 8 or more people chastised in the Mahon report, then your point is rubbish.

Am I missing something?

Quite obviously you are. A moral compass perhaps?

Are you happy with Enda sharing a stage with Denis O'Brien?
It's Yes or It's No!
Please put your answer on the record.

jank

If it were on a FG stage or an organised FG event then yes, you can critise Enda, but it was organised by Irish American Chamber of Commerce, DoB was there as a business man, Enda as a representative of the State.

Galwayguy35

I think MM and all the old guard should go and let fresh blood take over. Martin is a reminder of all that was wrong with the party in the past. FF made terrible mistakes in power and we are suffering for it now. But i dont see the point in blaming ordinary grassroots members for that. You all voted them in remember when they were promising what everyone wanted to hear.

COYW

tfitzgerald wrote: »

I can't see the party doing too well under Martin either. And to answer the op's question FF always put the party first

Every political party acts in the their own best interests in order to gain power and votes.

who the fug

COYW wrote: »

Every political party acts in the their own best interests in order to gain power and votes.

Except for that idiot Dukes and the FG party, CJ would never had done the same thing if he was in opposition