Blame Fianna Fáil for everything will only prevent political change . .

Drumpot

The best thing about the report today is that it highlighted what most of us already knew (or should of known) which is that corruption in politics has never been reserved soley for Fianna Fáil.

People used the last election to vote for "anybody but FF" and look at what we got . . Very little cultural change, personal advisers getting wages above certain limits and very hollow promises broken very quickly after getting the power they craved!

When the electorate choose to take the easy option, they get what they deserve. Choosing to believe that getting rid of Fianna Fáil will help fix the problem of corruption in politics is lazy, naive and remiss. It doesnt even begin to get to the root cause of corruption in politics. There is a rotten culture in politics and bad habits that will no dissapear simply because Fianna Fáil dissapear.

I am neither a member of the party or a sympathiser, but I believe we have to push for better politicians and have to vote for better people for real change. A new political party will change nothing if the same kind of politicians grease their way to the top.

I think that if people focus all their venom on one party, they once again (like the "anybody but FF" voters) let the rest of the corrupt politicians off the hook. We need to start focusing on the issues, not the people highlighting them or the insigificant specifics.

For me some of the most important questions to come out of the Mahon Tribunal is:

• How do we police the politicians/councellors independently?
• Why cant they be trusted ? Accountability ?
• What steps will be taken by government to hold politicians to a higher standard, even that above the average job ? - EG take some freedoms/rights from politicians with regard to their financial privacy to make sure they cant financially benefit from "digouts"
• How do we prevent politicians obstructing justice ? Eg - Any discussion a politician has with any member of police has to be on record or something like that.
• Everything has to be recorded and transparent. EG - Anything that is anyway unclear or questionable results in immediate expulsion if no adequate answers had within 28 days.
• All expenses have to be vouched. Seriously, why does this even have to be suggested?
• Politicians time should be recorded so we know how much time they spend running the country and how much time/money on getting re-elected. Incentivises more hard working politicians to work for the country, not for themselves.
• Some sort of independent body that keeps and publishes all information freely and for ease of use in a public website available for all to see. People can view expenses, see logs of meetings and timetables of their politicians. Might be overkill but who cares if it knocks them into line.
• A website/medium that keeps easily identifiable tabs on promises made at election time and what the politician did to act on these promises. This includes a log of all votes (for/against) made in the Dail during their tenure in office so they cant fudge their alliegence to certain vested groups.

Im sure there are other things that I have missed and I was only giving examples (not so sure how practical they are) to get ideas going.

Hootanany

Simple put SF in for a while and they will do these cuts.
And I am not a member of said party.

Laminations

While the points on political reform in the OP are laudable, the poster misses the benefit of destroying FF (or at the very least expulsions of sitting TDs from the party and charges against others). It would send a message. if you get caught doing wrong or being corrupt / or lying to a tribunal or court then you get punished. If your party is riddled with corruption then you are made extinct. While i dont expect the destruction of FF to be the end of corruption and dishonesty in politics, I dont know how the OP thinks that message would lead to the following.

Drumpot wrote: »

A new political party will change nothing if the same kind of politicians grease their way to the top.

Destroying FF would let those same kind of politicians know the fate that would await them if they have greasy plans. Maybe you could tell us what's worth saving in FF?

meglome

Hootanany wrote: »

Simple put SF in for a while and they will do these cuts.
And I am not a member of said party.

I think we can be reasonably sure that Sinn Fein wouldn't carry out the cuts. Personally I believe they would do less cutting. Sinn Fein have always told their supporters what they want to hear and carrying out the cuts they promised would hit their supporters more than most. Thus showing up most of the stuff they have said about defaulting etc for the crap it is.

lastlaugh

Hootanany wrote: »

Simple put SF in for a while and they will do these cuts.
And I am not a member of said party.

They might "do these cuts" but can you imagine what the ink bill would be if they were in?

transylman

Drumpot wrote: »

I am neither a member of the party or a sympathiser

^^
Number one thing said by FFers posting on message boards.

Second would be using the term ABFF.

[Jackass]

Sinn Fein would strangle the life out of the most productive members of society and tax the fu*k out of anything that generates wealth and they would give it all out in hand outs to the poor, like the super welfare, semi-communist state they wish to form.

They would be an unmitigated disastor, on fiscal policy alone, never mind foreign affairs and in the European arena. They would also isolate the country, get us blacklisted from funding in Europe by sticking up the fingers to Brusells, I genuinely believe the IMF would come in to the country to rebuild it within 12 months of a SF Government, a 4 year olf would do a better job, or a deceased person, because at least they couldn't make it worse than it already is.

Spacedog

The poor would be better off though for a change. that'd be terrible eh?

meglome

Spacedog wrote: »

The poor would be better off though for a change. that'd be terrible eh?

Well it would be terrible. As the poor would be better off for a very short time then we'd all be in the shíte. And the poor would be hit worst.

Spacedog

meglome, are you poor?

goose2005

[Jackass] wrote: »

Sinn Fein would strangle the life out of the most productive members of society and tax the fu*k out of anything that generates wealth and they would give it all out in hand outs to the poor, like the super welfare, semi-communist state they wish to form.

They would be an unmitigated disastor, on fiscal policy alone, never mind foreign affairs and in the European arena. They would also isolate the country, get us blacklisted from funding in Europe by sticking up the fingers to Brusells, I genuinely believe the IMF would come in to the country to rebuild it within 12 months of a SF Government, a 4 year olf would do a better job, or a deceased person, because at least they couldn't make it worse than it already is.

Is that what they've done in NI - you know, the place where they've had a good bit of power for over a decade now?

goose2005

goose2005 wrote: »

Is that what they've done in NI - you know, the place where they've had a good bit of power for over a decade now?

So what you're saying is that they're lying to their supporters down south?

Dirk Gently

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

So what you're saying is that they're lying to their supporters down south?

I wouldn't say lying, moreso sitting comfortable in opposition. Chances are they'll at best be a junior coalition partner down south so will never be tested on their principles, just like labour will never be tested as they spend their whole existence propping up FF or FG governments. They can say what they like until they're a bigger or equal member of government coalition. Fact is they're cutting left right and centre up north while preaching the opposite down south where they dont have to make the decisions.

goose2005

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

So what you're saying is that they're lying to their supporters down south?

Yes. In the Republic they talk a lot of nonsense about keeping services; in the North, where they actually have some power, they are implementing the Tory/LD cuts without a whimper.

meglome

Spacedog wrote: »

meglome, are you poor?

I was when I was younger and I can tell you the recession made me poor again. I'd still take more pain if it sorted the country out but by what I hear from Sinn Fein it would actually frighten me to think of them in power.

(And yes I know they are in power in the North but they have limited power and can blame the Tory government)

Mr.Micro

meglome wrote: »

I was when I was younger and I can tell you the recession made me poor again. I'd still take more pain if it sorted the country out but by what I hear from Sinn Fein it would actually frighten me to think of them in power.

(And yes I know they are in power in the North but they have limited power and can blame the Tory government)

Poor but wise.:)

ednwireland

Drumpot wrote: »

Blame Fianna Fáil for everything will only prevent political change . ..

don't Blame Fianna Fáil for everything will only prevent political change . .

so whats the solution eh

honestly i expected nothing else from this gov. their hands are tied by the previous administrations catastrophic ineptitude and cronyism

(although i did expect the current lot to actually last slightly longer on things like salary caps just confirmed my thoughts on all politicians as did the snodaigh affair)

a whistle blowers charter would be a good start

the problem is no serving politician will bring in rules that will ultimately lead to there downfall (they may muck it up so badly as to make themselves unelectable )

Drumpot

Laminations wrote: »

While the points on political reform in the OP are laudable, the poster misses the benefit of destroying FF (or at the very least expulsions of sitting TDs from the party and charges against others). It would send a message. if you get caught doing wrong or being corrupt / or lying to a tribunal or court then you get punished. If your party is riddled with corruption then you are made extinct. While i dont expect the destruction of FF to be the end of corruption and dishonesty in politics, I dont know how the OP thinks that message would lead to the following.


Destroying FF would let those same kind of politicians know the fate that would await them if they have greasy plans. Maybe you could tell us what's worth saving in FF?

I never said it would be bad for Ireland if FF dissapeared and would be looking for more accountability from all politicians.

My point was that focusing all the anger on FF is what the electorate did last year and what has that achieved ? Differant party, differant ethos ?

It hasnt taken them long to get nasty, lazy habits on how they treat their people and on how they look after themselves (take away policedrivers, but keep a driver, vouched expenses? , adviser wage caps!).

I dont care if people hate and will never forgive FF, what I care about is political reform and it will not be helped by thinking that FF bashing will change anything other then how the cute hooers think.

I dont think FF being wiped out last year has put any fear in this government. . Have they shown fear towards how they look after themselves or how much they have lived up to their promises ? What radical changes have they made that effects themselves ? What about the annual review of the cabinet that Mr Kenny promised, hows that going ?

FG/Lab think they are bulletproof and the more the public vents its anger at FF, the easier our government will rightly feel they have it.

Everybody has been blaming FF for everything that happened (excusing the oppositions role and indeed the opposition councellors) since the crisis began . . How much meaningful political reform have FG/Lab implemented in the last year out of fear of the irate Irish ? Is this forcing the reform we want or just allowing the other parties a free pass ?

None of our parties or politicians can be trusted to bring in any meaningful penalties or disciplinary procedures that would potentially hold themselves or their colleagues accountable. This government deserves stick for doing little to encourage political reform and weed out the criminals in politics. Alot can be done in one year, if there is political will and I dont see how FG/Lab could of done much less to try and implement any changes. Do you think it would take them long to bring in new reforms if 300,000 people marched outside the Dáil for a change ?

If you have to force somebody to do something right, then they are only doing the right thing out of self preservation. Focusing all our anger on FF will protect the dodgy boys in other parties. Focusing all our anger on the political culture will weed out everybody and in the process destroy FF (if it is as corrupt as many people believe).

jimmycrackcorm

Spacedog wrote: »

The poor would be better off though for a change. that'd be terrible eh?

No, they'd still be poor but at least they'd achieve equality by making us all equally poor.